Miliband backs Cameron's Scottish intervention
Labour leader says he supports Cameron's call for an early referendum on independence.
By George Eaton Published 10 January 2012 14:31
Since becoming Labour leader, Ed Miliband has said little about Scottish politics, despite the reality that his party has the most to lose from an independent Scotland. But in the Q&A session following his speech to London Citizens, he was finally forced to address the subject.
Miliband said that he supported David Cameron's decision to call for an early referendum on independence and called for "greater clarity about the legal position, what is actually going to happen and when it's going to happen." He also made an impressive and extensive defence of the Union, referring to the "sense of solidarity that exists across the border" and to shared institutions such as the NHS and the BBC.
It now seems likely that Alex Salmond will simply ignore the two party leaders and proceed with his original plan to hold an advisory referendum (the Scottish Parliament has no legal right to hold a binding one) in 2014 in the hope of securing a clear mandate to negotiate for independence. But Cameron's intervention has at least succeeded in focusing attention on an issue that has often seemed too distant from our MPs' minds. Miliband promised that "lots of prominent people" from Labour, "including me", would join the fight to save the Union. Given that Labour would lose 41 seats from independence, while the Tories would lose one, he had better live up to his word.
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24 comments
Sigh. If you had even a tiny atom of knowledge of what you were talking about, then (a) that would be a refreshing change, and (b) you'd already know that explicitly-stated SNP policy is to retain Sterling initially, until such times as joining the Euro is deemed attractive, and then to put that decision to the people in a referendum. If the Euro fails or is rejected, a Scottish currency will be created.
Any more questions we can help you with, or is there an adult nearby who can explain how to use Google to you?
Lots of ifs and buts there Marbles, your telling me at the creation of a Scottish nation will not have it's own currency?
" Deemed attractive " we aren't talking about a beauty contest, we are talking about a financial instrument which is a symbol of a nation.
It all seems very muddled, they retain sterling for years, then they have to decide if they join the euro (on the premise it is still around)
or they might have their own currency.
Are you advocating a strategy of Pots and pans?
"Lots of ifs and buts there Marbles, your telling me at the creation of a Scottish nation will not have it's own currency? "
Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. Do I need to go slower?
Yay! he finally agrees with something! now if only he'll agree with some of the reforms...
If we'd listened to fundamentalist unionists like Cameron in 1997, where would the Scottish NHS be today? Devolution has enabled us to keep our NHS public, while down south the people are seeing their health service sold off, piece by piece.
It's a sad day for some, but it's becoming clearer that the best of British (the post-war consensus) is better served outside the union than in it.
If the best argument Labour can come up with for supporting the Union is that it will help them keep seats at Westminster then the ba' really is on the slate.
With Cameron's fear-mongering on one hand and Miliband's self-preservation instincts on the other, only the SNP are articulating a vision of a progressive Scotland.
This reminds me of the 2010 TV debates: "I agree with Dave". So little wonder that Miliband and Lamont tried to lie low. Agreeing with Dave worked out well for the Lib Dems after all - down from eleven FPTP seats at Holyrood in 2007 to just two in 2011.
I suppose the UK press can be forgiven for running with it, because if the UK Government has made the mistake of saying it can allow a binding referendum, who are they to gainsay it - but surely someone, somewhere, has to have realised that there is no such thing as a "binding" referendum in UK Constitutional law.
According to UK constitutional law, Parliament is sovereign and cannot be bound by the acts of a previous parliament. That means no referendum can be binding - Parliament will always have the right to overturn any legislation that was the result of a referendum.
Of course, in the case of Scottish Independence the UK Parliament can hardly revoke that status at a future date, as it will have given up it's sovereignty over Scotland and thus an Independence referendum would be binding de facto if not de jure, but regardless, what the UK Government is offering is not a binding referendum, merely a referendum they promise they won't ignore and that can't be challenged in the courts - though, again, to ignore a "Yes" vote just because the referendum was merely "advisory" would be completely untenable.
The view that the Labour party has 'most to lose' from Scottish Independence says much. They can only have 'most to lose' if viewed purely from a Westminster perspective. In fact, were Scottish Labour to listen to the Scottish electorate and move to a pro-Independence stance they would stand to gain much. If only they would cease with the lemming impersonation...
As for Milliband's 'shared institutions', it is only thanks to Holyrood that Scotland retains an NHS, while England's is sold down the river. And the BBC? Dinnae get me started...
"Given that Labour would lose 41 seats from independence, while the Tories would lose one, he had better live up to his word."
The idea that an independent Scotland would make a significant difference to Labour's chances of winning in the rest of the UK is a myth:
http://wingsland.podgamer.com/?p=13513
Why won't Salmond be honest, and tell the Scottish people, they would be signing up to the euro?
Alex salmonds stance on independence is a bit like merkel and sarkozy's stance on europe. It's the longest running meeting and talkshow in history. Pathetic. Does salmond want independence? Of course he doesn't. He's about as legit as Nick Clegg on tuition fees.
The battle between the Coalition and the SNP is a golden opportunity for Labour. Labour has reverted to its historical norm. More Scottish and Welsh than the country at large. But overwhelmingly English. And heavily concentrated in the North of England, which has a population significantly larger than that of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland combined.
The North also has a highly distinctive culture of economically leftish social conservatism serving and served by agriculture, manufacturing and small business, with its roots in Catholicism, Methodism and a form of High Churchmanship very different from that in the South. Labour support and Labour membership are proportionately, even dramatically higher than in Scotland. Last year, heavy Labour losses to the SNP in Scotland were matched by heavy Labour gains from the Lib Dems in the North.
So Ed Miliband should propose that each of the present or, where they have been abolished in the rush to unitary local government, the previous city, borough and district council areas in the North be twinned with a demographically comparable one in Scotland and with another in the South East. Across each of the key indicators – health, education, housing, transport, et cetera – both expenditure and outcomes in the Northern area would have to equal or exceed those in each of its twins, or else the relevant Ministers’ salaries would be docked by the percentage in question.
And he should propose that in any policy area devolved to Scotland, no legislation would apply in any of the three Northern regions unless supported at Third Reading by the majority of its MPs. Such a legislative patchwork would obviously be impractical, so instead governments would always have to ensure that any proposed legislation already enjoyed such support.
The Lib Dems might then insist on the same for the South West. Fine. After all, no one would lose under any of this. There would be no more politicians than there already are. Both expenditure and outcomes in Scotland and in the South East would have to be maintained for the twinning system to work.
What if either or both of Scotland and Wales really were to secede? The South holds us in undisguised cultural contempt despite depending on us for something as basic as water. But when the City needs to be bailed out, then the South East is happy to take the money of people who have bothered to maintain as much as we can of a proper industrial base, in the teeth of governments of both parties over 30 years.
Without the farming, fishing, manufacturing and shop-keeping land of an economically leftish social conservatism rooted in Catholicism, Presbyterianism and Episcopalianism; without the farming, manufacturing and shop-keeping land of an economically leftish social conservatism rooted in Catholicism, several varieties of Nonconformity, and the sane High Churchmanship that provides the background music to the Church in Wales; then what, exactly, would there be in the Union for our enormous population and, compared to the South East, our vastly more reliable economy?
Some nonsense written here. I don't understand what is so difficult to understand about the SNPs stance on the referendum timing.
Most of Scotland hated Thatcher. The current government is made up of Thatcher brats attempting something very similar.
It makes perfect sense to let the Scottish people feel the full effects of their disgusting policies before asking the question.
Nothing wrong with that in my opinion and makes winning the referendum easier.
If Salmond didn't want independence he would do the referendum of the UKs terms
George, you are clearly a Unionist and are terrified of the 'breakup of the UK', but I am not aware of your having written anything explaining why you think the status quo is preferable. There is an appetite for change north of the border, and a growing crisis in English identity (brought about, apparently, by devolution and immigration). Perhaps England may discover the appetite for independence since the received wisdom would have us believe (incorrectly) that it subsidises Scotland and everywhere else.
What is clear is that Cameron and (now) Milliband do not understand Scotland, never mind the issue at hand, and that the 'positive case' for the Union appears to be non-existent. Also, Cameron (a leader in a coalition with no mandate) is trying to force the leader of a majority government into a position other than one on which he was elected. Very bizarre.
Ed and Dave stand united, the toxic twins At least they are out in the open now.
Regarding currency, it is unlikely that we will not know whether the euro is alive or dead by 2014, a very good reason for waiting. Whatever we decide, it will be to adopt a currency that benefits Scotland's financial status and allows us to have a competitive advantage within the world.
Benjamin Rae, I have no doubt that much of Scotland hated Thatcher personally, but both her policies and her party were far more popular there than in many comparably populous parts of England.
Proportionately more people in Scotland than in England bought shares in the privatised industry, the Tories' number of seats was respectable, their share of the vote was more than respectable (at one in six on a four-way split, it is still quite healthy), their municipal base experienced nothing like the devastation that it did in much of England, and so on.
The Poll Tax was imposed early by popular demand, there was a never a riot against it, there was nothing like the problem of mass non-payment that there was in much of England, and at the subsequent General Election Scotland was the only part of the country to experience a net gain in Tory seats. People who shout the loudest are not necessarily representative of anyone but themselves.
All in all, it is no wonder that over half the Scottish electorate now supports possibly the most uniformly pro-big business party in the world, with its base in one of the richest areas in Europe, where private sector employment is higher than in the South East of England.
But then, per capita income in Scotland as a whole is 100 per cent of the national average. Poor Scotland is as much a myth as left-wing Scotland.
"Why won't Salmond be honest, and tell the Scottish people, they would be signing up to the euro?"
Because it's not true.
Really Marbles, so remind me what currency Scotland will be using then?
"Really Marbles, so remind me what currency Scotland will be using then?"
Sterling, for at least several years. I'm surprised you've managed to miss the numerous times this has been made clear by the SNP leadership.
Well done Marbles, you want to have a nation which will not know its owncurrency, congratulations what a brilliant idea.
Have you heard of South Sudan? They had the bright idea of establishing a currency on the creation of statehood.
I see you have no comment on the Euro, worried that it not going to be around, is that an attractive idea?
"Sterling for at least several years"
So Scotland is going to only last for a several years as a independent country?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/4143731/Alex-Salmond-Eur...
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