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On the third anniversary of Operation Cast Lead, army officials indicate they are ready to strike ag
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Tags: Palestine Gaza Israel
@Jingo Moon: If the occupied territories are there as a buffer zone, why are illegal settlements still being constructed upon them? That's not a buffer zone - it's annexation of sovereign territory.
"to defend the terrorists Begin and Shamir by mentioning the sainted Mandela"
and i do think it is a worthy mention in defense. Mandela was convicted of terrorism. i think his crime was sabotage?
the simple reality is that sometimes the only way to make oneself heard, the only way to get attention, the only way to try and have change in your favour, or at the very least make it clear one will no longer "take this lying down" is to resort to acts of terrorism.
a terrorist is not by default incapable of change, and so become part of the solution. but there has to be change, or terrorist acts will continue as sure as night follows day.
Good, give up because frankly you were only repeating yourself.
Hamas alone is not the problem. The mentality of the members of the Arab League is what drives this issue year in, year out.
I have said here and elsewhere that Israel is not blameless here, but the motivation behind 60+ years of conflict is that Arab League mentality and policy that ensures peace, negotiation and a humane ending to this is simply not going to happen.
You cannot educate your children to hate the enemy and expect that to die away in one generation. You cannot refuse citizenship, passports and meaningful employment to a whole group of people and expect them not to be resentful and see themselves as victims, but that is Arab League policy, which you either don't know about, acknowledge or believe.
The Palestinian Arabs are being kept as refugees because it suits the AL, and they then take out their resentment and frustration on Israel, as they have been schooled to do over 60 + years. Why you cannot see this is beyond me, but then you are not alone.
As you clearly can't distinguish between the Nazis and the IDF, the Nazis were set on domination of as much of the world as they could, i.e. from the Channel to Moscow, the Arctic to the Sahara, and while doing so, carried out industrial scale genocide on at least one race and many sub groups.
The IDF on the other hand are tasked to defend their state and its citizens - it does not have orders to take other neighbouring states, in fact in 2005, it quit Gaza, previously it quit the Sinai. Contrary to popular misconception, it is not carrying out a genocide on Palestinian Arabs, or if it is, it is the most inept proponent possible as Palestinian Arab numbers have risen enormously, while effective genocide would have shrunk their numbers.
When a poster writes about Nazis and Lehi and Stern and Irgun, you know they have nothing substantive to say but just like to give Israel a kicking whenever they can - consider your duty done.
i dont recall british forces carpet bombing belfast
jankaas - I am no Mandela fan nor am I impressed by the more extreme elements of the ANC but to compare them to the gangsters of the Irgun and Lehi is like comparing a shoplifter to a serial killer, both criminals but different ball game. Israeli terrorists such as Begin and Shamir continued to use terrorist methods after the establishment of the Israeli state and this trend continues to this day. Do you honestly see a change happening with Netanyahu at the head of a government containing members of Yisrael Beiteinu and Shas?
Please point to where I have missed your good intent.
It is easy to take a comment out of context and use it as a provocative headline as White has here.
Colonel Richard Kemp who commanded UK forces in Afghanistan also believes Cast lead in a professional military context, was an excellent operation.
Incidentally, it is unlikely that a fanatic would have been promoted to the Chief of staff of the IDf - a fanatic would hardly be trusted with the responsibility for the security of a nation.
In military terms, Cast Lead was an excellent operation. If you have to stop attacks on your country and cause as few civilian casualties as possible, then is was successful.
Colonel Richard Kemp of the British army, who served as UK commander in Afghanistan has said that Cast Lead campaign was carried out with more care not to endanger civilians than any other campaign in history - a comment that will never be repeated by activists like White.
Of the 300 children killed in Gaza, how many of those died as a result of Hamas using them s human shields? When you consider that martyrdom is seen as something positive in the Arab world, who can say how many of those children were sacrificed by Hamas?
Cast Lead unfortunately provided a platform for 'activists' like Ben White to use as an excuse for ongoing criticism of Israel, but the alternative was to permit rockets to be fired into Israel from Gaza, and that was not an option.
As a Zionist who has lived in Israel I can quite easily see the other side of the argument and I feel desperately sorry for Palestinian Arabs who are between a rock and a hard place - the rock of Arab League policy and the hard place of Israeli determination.
Under Arab League policy formulated in 1949, Palestinian Arabs are denied passports, citizenship and meaningful employment in the Arab states. The refugees were to be a stick with which to irritate Israel, and it has worked only too well. But after 64 years, surely it is time to call a halt to this policy, allow Palestinian Arabs to be absorbed into the countries in which they have settled, just as 850,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands have been largely absorbed by Israel.
As a Zionist I do not believe Israel does no wrong, far from it, but to suffer the demonisation, delegitimisation and to have the double standards applied to it that are not applied elsewhere , indicates to me that those who do so are more interested in doing down Israel than in justice for the Palestinian Arabs. Ben White is just such a person. He says he is not anti-Semitic but 'can understand people who are'. You must make up your own minds what that means - its clear to me that White is no friend of Israel, but is he of the Palestinian Arabs? Personally, I doubt it.
and there was me thinking you'd made up the name Stroop...doh! (it means 'syrup' in Dutch, so am assuming it means the same in German). clicked on your link and found it was a real bloke.
i do understand the point you were trying to make with this comparison, but i the i also think that it directly invokes Godwin's Law. at that point i always have to switch off.
Fairplay, way to go though, eh?
"If you scratch the surface of many - not all - reflexive defenders of Israel, you will likely find a fundamentalist beneath."
i think that is a gross exaggeration. most do so out of misguided belief that the propaganda they hear is fact (ie Iran is about to wipe them off the map, the whole world hates them, especially the UN etc etc).
"shirking their responsibility as a signatory of the Geneva Convention and members of the human race."
absolutely spot on. here i couldn't have put it better.
oops, should be; "but i also think that it directly invokes Godwin's Law.
"This is about anti-Semitism masked under the guise of solidarity with the Palestinians people."
it just isn't for the vast majority of those who believe the current Israeli administration is doing wrong. there are literally tens of thousands of Israelis and Jews around the world who believe Israel is wrong. are they all anti-semitic too?
but then you appear to think that Hamas started all of this.......seriously? or did you not mean this? (2nd time of asking)
"Mouse and jankaas and others,
Funny how you have no response to my comments"
sorry, thought everyone had migrated to the Cast Lead thread...catch up time then.
"This is a double standard."
no it is not. i merely said that "Israel as a functioning wealthy democracy should lead by example".
no, well done you for yet again building a straw man argument. you need to work with what i wrote, not what you think i meant.
"Check points, blockades, walls are all symptoms of an illness called terrorism. "
1) the founders of the State of Israel were terrorists.
2) the illness is 'fear' and the symptoms are akin to self harming.
" would you describe Israel as a fascist state?"
"and how would you describe Hamas?"
a political party, democratically elected, that has a tendency to resort to criminal acts under international law in reaction to criminal acts carried out by Israel's democratically elected administration.
what a mess eh?
jankaas - Godwin's Law is just so much BS but if that is the excuse you need to switch off, feel free.
At least you learned that Jürgen Stroop was a real person, one involved in a number of "excellent operations" from a military point of view but one who was also morally bankrupt.
jankaas: would you describe Israel as a fascist state? and how would you describe Hamas?
jankaas: You’re a red-Nazi so why pretend otherwise. Of cause thousands of Jews disagree with the politics of the state of Israel or do you think they are all the same? Hamas is a named terrorist organisation and has publicly stated on more than one occasion their intention of killing or driving into the see all Jews in Palestine. It wouldn't stop with the Jews the Christians would be next and then any Palestinian that doesn't agree with their brand of Islam. But I suppose we can all keep pretending in happy endings
"Why you cannot see this is beyond me, but then you are not alone."
it's delusional that's why. your 'theory' requires an unattainable level of co-operation between Muslim nations that have their own differences and scores to settle. issues stretched over decades, without falling apart. not going to happen ever anywhere on the planet. just look at the stagnant UN, the moribund NATO, the failing Euro....
there is no homogenous Arab intent or single Muslim aspiration. you fall into this cheap propaganda trap, the one that says; 'those others aren't normal humans'
cityca 06 January 2012 at 10:47 - Taking a comment out of context has the stench of a Diane Abbott style excuse when faced with criticism. In a professional military context the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto was also considered an "excellent operation" at the time but that is hardly a recommendation. It does not take into consideration the hundereds of civilian dead and the utter devastation of a small area of land
Israel has had terrorist Prime Ministers in the past (Begin and Shamir) who were involved in the vilest of crimes so it would come as no surprise for a fanatic to atain high rank in the IDF especially given the composition of the current Israeli government.
"How many missiles did the starved Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto fire at German civilian targets?"
if they had had missiles though, do you think they would have used them to fight back with?
"How many suicide bombers did the starved Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto send to blow up German kids on school buses and in restaurants?"
if they had had been able to organise this though, do you think they would have used it as a tactic to fight back with?
i wonder if you will be brave enough to answer these simple questions?
cityca - I am familiar with the tactics used by Zionist apologists to defend the extreme actions of the IDF and their political masters so your post is just so much blah to me. Maybe this was what Jankaas meant when he mentioned Godwin's Law?
My only regret is not completing my duty and giving you and your fellow apologists a kicking too (metaphorically of course).
One is not aware of a single Jew who is not eager to achieve peace. Yet, peace has not been achieved since 1920, when the San Remo Conference determined the future of "Palestine" - a territory, not a nationality or a state, mind you - and the year on which the war-of-attrition-through-terror against the Jewish community of Eretz Israel (Land of Israel) commenced, carried out by the Muslim-Arabs.
All efforts to engage both sides in a sustainable peace process have failed, all of them, but the one that has never been tried: The application of international law, as is, to the Arab Israeli conflict.
The fundamentals of the international law as it is related to the conflict are as follows:
1) The San Remo Conference decisions, 1920
2) The League of Nations decisions, 1922
3) The United Nations Charter, Article 80, 1945
4) UN Security Council Resolution, 242, 1967.
Shouldn't people of good will, finally, demand that international law be applied, as is, to this conflict so as to achieve either peace, or alternatively and more realistically, an accommodation of peaceful coexistence between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab ummah (nation) and medinat ha-leom (the nation-state) of the Jewish people, Israel...??!!
P.S. It is of utmost importance to be specific about UN Security Council Resolution, 242, which passed unanimously and has been accepted by all relevant parties to the conflict:
a. 242 came about on the infrastructure of the fundamental resolutions listed above, i.e. San Remo, League of Nations, and UN Charter.
b. 242 expects the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to retreat from "territories" of captured lands in 1967, but not from all or the territories. And, not to any particular line, something that Israel has fulfilled some time ago.
c. 242 does not call for the setting up of an additional state between the River and the Sea.
d. 242 does not even make use of concepts such as "Palestinians" or a "Palestinian state".
In short, 242, in essence, expects all existing states in the region to be recognized by their neighboring states that continue to exist beyond "secure and recognized boundaries".
Why is it so difficult for the Muslim-Arabs to accept this, and why doesn't the international community stand by its own international law in applying it to this conflict....??!!
P.P.S. Yes, the "preamble" that people keep referring to, forgeting the fact that it is applicable to the states of Jordan, Egypt and Syria that, until 1967, occupied illegally territory that had been designated to be "the national home for the Jewish people", thugs the refusal by 242 to accept those conquests as legal.
"1.The founders of the state of Israel were terrorists."
You are wrong and so what anyway, the current leaders certainly aren't?
"2. the illness is fear and the symptoms..."
Terrorism causes fear, that's what it's designed to do. Check points etc are perhaps more accurately described as treatments for the fear.
Of course, not living near the front line with Gaza, you have no insight into life under threat of rocket attack, or suicide bombing at a cafe or bar and as you seem to harbour huge hostility to Israel, why would you care anyway?
As you say, the website has moved on, so I will too.
Coleridge - If you had read the Stroop Report as I have you would know that "Jewish bandits" was aterm used by the SS to describe the Ghetto Fighters (as well as other civilians who got in the way).
This ignorance does not excuse the rest of your disgusting, insulting rant.
Perhaps you should leave the WW2 stuff to those who know a little about it. The Handschar Division was raised by the SS not some obscure Palestinian cleric and it included Moslems and Christians in its ranks. The Division fought mainly against Serbian Partizans and was not involved in the deportation of Jews, It certainly did not wipe out Bosnian Jewry since over 20% of Bosnian Jews survived the war and those who were deported to the death camps were mainly victims of the Croatian Ustase. If you are going to distort history yourself, you should at least try to be a little better informed.
BTW, I am a Scottish Christian with family connections to Ireland and Germany so your back to Pakistan, stone your women, Islamist jibe merely exposes you as a twisted bigot-the NS permits all types to post here even borderline trolls like yourself.
Coleridge - If you think I am citing an SS Report to support (what you think are) my views, then you are clearly deranged.
The standard work on the Handschar Division is "Himmler's Bosnian Division" by George Lepre and American historian. No mention of the Handschar Division destroying Bosnian Jewry but don't let that stand in the way of your prejudices. Bosnian Jews were persecuted in the main by the Croatian (Catholic) Ustase. Martin Gilbert describes himself as a proud practising Jew and a Zionist and makes a living from writing about the Holocaust. I doubt even this "reliable" historian would make the outlandish claim that the Grand Mufti raised the Handschar Division or that the Division wiped out Bosnian Jewry.
The long dead Grand Mufti may have been a big noise in the Moslem World but in the west he remains an obscure Palestinian Cleric. If British people have heard of him at all it will likely be because he caused us much trouble during the Mandate years (although not as much trouble as the murderous gangsters of the Lehi and Irgun).
Your friends in Tel Aviv will be disappointed that the best you can come up with as an insult is "insane islamist fascist", something that would make even the most feeble-minded EDL bonehead blush in embarassment. You don't have to be a pea-brain all your life - take the rest of the night off.
Peter - if you are against anti-Semitism then it is irrational to then disregard Israel's hatred and prejudice against the Palestinians.
Coleridge - most of the killing is of Palestinians by the state of Israel and not the other way round.
Jehudah - no international agreement stated that Palestinians should be deprived of their homeland on the basis of their ethnic or religious background.
"In military terms, Cast Lead was an excellent operation."
and in International legal terms it was illegal. and before you miss the point, the actions of Hamas that triggered this operation were also illegal under International law.
"the 300 children killed in Gaza"
correction; the 300 children murdered by Israel. how many did Hamas kill in the attack that launched Cast Lead? some may argue that it is entirely pointless to compare numbers. i don't agree with this. Israel as a functioning wealthy democracy should lead by example, rather than utilise such Shock and Awe tactics employing banned weapons.
"When you consider that martyrdom is seen as something positive in the Arab world"
do you know anything about the brainwashing and propaganda ordinary Israelis are exposed to? or what do you think they are willing to defend Israel with their lives for?
i think the elephant in the room on this thread is just how uneven the aggression is. both sides do kill civilians, as discussed the numbers are hugely disproportionate, but beyond that, the following questions need to be answered;
how many Palestinian check points stop Israelis from moving around freely?
how many Palestinian blockades stop Israel from trading?
how many walls have been built by Palestinians to keep Israelis out?
how many settlements have Palestinians built in contravention of UN resolutions?
how many Israelis are forced by Palestinians to use inferior road systems to travel on?
i could go on, but hopefully you get the point. no?
For your information, following the 1948 war, a policy was developed by the Arab League. The policy stated that the Palestinian refugees were not to be permitted to have citizenship or passports to any member of the Arab League, nor to have meaningful employment. The intention was to use them as pawns with which to irritate Israel.
Don't take my word for it look up Arab league policy to Palestinians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War
Then look up education for Palestinian children and you will find that Israel does not feature in any text book, but Jews and Israelis figure only as the type of hate figures personified in Nazi literature.
What I have written is far from delusional. I have an agenda and I certainly support it, but I won't lie in support of any cause. What I can't understand is how you, someone who on the face of it appears intelligent and reasonable, can argue a case that is simply not sustainable.
jankaas, you are far from the truth regarding my feelings about Palestinian Arabs.
I certainly do not consider them to be lesser mortals than me, nor I believe do the majority of Israelis.
There is enormous suspicion, a deep hatred of their actions too but that's only to be expected after 6 decades of murderous attacks and the suicide bombings of the second intifada, but only racists consider Palestinians or any Arabs as lesser mortals, and this is not a widely held belief in Israel.
"Israel absorbed the majority of the 850,00 Jews from Arab countries who were ejected or 'encouraged' to leave after 1948."
surely this only proves that Israel needed a population, had empty territory ready to be settled, and Israel only extended this invitation to a specific religious minority to the exclusion of those from other religions? and you think this is a fair and straight comparison with the plight of Palestinians??? (btw i had assumed that you hated, and found unacceptable, any direct comparison between Jews persecuted by Nazis and Palestinians persecuted by Israelis, but you are doing exactly that...)
"You claim to be a humanitarian but see no problem with the AL allowing a people, whom they call brother, to fester in refugee camps for 64 years."
and exactly because i am a humanitarian do i say it is wrong for these fellow humans to be stuck in camps. i also call all humans 'brother'. but, they need their own country, the 2 State Solution is the only option, not farming these people out to foreign nations. that's not an option.
"Israel, on the other hand covers an area of just 20,000 sq kilometres and in the early days, it scratched for every penny, yet had no qualms about absorbing as many refugee Jews as wanted to come."
can you see how akin to racist this is? Jews from anywhere on the planet are welcome, but people who have lived for generations in this actual region must be forced behind walls or into camps, or anywhere but not where their roots are....
but let's cut to the chase, as your last sentence implies a certain weariness on your part, despite you clearly having a far greater vested interest than i do. you wrote;
"your interest is intellectual only"
ok, i'll work with that. yes i do try and apply intellect to my argument. i appreciate that my POV is bound to be very different from yours, just as mine would be different from a Palestinian (who have labelled me 'Zionist scum' on other sites, when i have argued their terrorist activities are unacceptable and counterproductive).
so yes i do try and provide you with the perspective of an outsider, but back my arguments with all the facts i can muster. so in a thread about the 2008 Israeli murder spree in Gaza, i have had to argue the case that Israel can't behave like this and expect the world to applaud along with them when so many civilians and children died.
i wish you and your family well.
"Please point to where I have missed your good intent."
just read my posts cityca.
but to clarify; i absolutely and unreservedly defend the right of the State of Israel to exist. i have absolutely no desire to see it fail. it would break my heart if it did.
"jankaas: You’re a red-Nazi"
had to look that term up. what a vile little turd you are Luddite.
fuck off and die.
just to get this straight; according to you, under existing UN Resolutions, there is no legal obligation for Israel to accept and help create a 2 State solution with the Palestinians in these territories?
"The fact is jackass they didn't."
ok, back to the personal insults is it? fine, so be it Cun-ti-lips.
"The analogy is not just absurd it is racist. "
it wasn't an analogy you utter moron. so your charge is absolutely moronic. i haven't mentioned race either you absolute liar.
i asked you a simple question, a question which should illustrate that there is a flaw in your comparison between Warsaw and Gaza based on a simple fact; the poor sods who were in Warsaw had no access to weapons, the poor sods in Gaza do.
so my hypothetical question remains; if the people in the Warsaw Ghettos had weapons would they have fought back for their survival?
i rather think they would have, but you assume they would not. why? do you assume they were cowards? i certainly don't.
"Jackass you islamist retard:"
is that it Fredprick? i ask specifically what Palestinians have done to deserve the disproportionate treatment handed out by Israel, in their every day activities, and you cite data from; Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Sudan.....
oh, hang on, i get it; you think that they are......all the same.....!!!
you're ever such a prick.
Ben White is an activist and writer. His latest book is "Palestinians in Israel: Segregation, Discrimination and Democracy"