The Staggers

The New Statesman’s rolling politics blog

We all own the violence

This is a simple truth and it has been misdiagnosed all week.

By Simon Reid-Henry Published 13 August 2011 11:17

The real violence we are seeing this week is the violence of a "feral" capitalism.

For all the stoved-in windows, the torched cars, the looted shops and the bloodied hands, the rioters this week are not simple "criminals". For all the apoplexy of the Daily Mail they are not "feral teenagers", or even animals for that matter. They have delivered but they do not own the violence on our streets. We all own their violence because we are all buy in to the system that provokes it.

This is a simple truth and it has been misdiagnosed all week. The Prime Minister revealed how out of date his school of Tory physick is when he described the violence as the property of "sick pockets" of society, as if in some Victorian morality play still, starring the pauper and the prostitute. Ed Miliband and Harriet Harman also overlooked the underlying pathology in their rush to be seen inspecting the symptoms welting up across our streets.

Even the liberal media have erred in their prescriptions, acknowledging that the violence has its causes but insisting it is mindless in the act. Insisting, that is to say, that it is the precise opposite of their own metropolitan sophistication.

It may well be true that those terrorising the streets have been acting on impulse, and their actions may well be abhorrent. But we are not advised to push the looters away like this. Certainly not before we understand who they really are and what they thought they were doing (assuming that many of them weren't simply in the wrong place at the wrong time), as Paul Bagguley has pointed out:

Young men in this age range [18-24] are more likely to be on the streets in the places and times at which riots take place as they are more likely to be unemployed, and not to have family commitments or other urgent demands on their time.

The point is, if we have seen a thousand acts of crime these last few days, then we have seen also the reflection of a thousand forms of injustice and a thousand forms of neglect, cutting across lines of age, race and gender albeit with certain trends. Tory vilifications and liberal "told you so" retrospectives do little to help us understand this.

Of course, as Martin Kettle and Aditya Chakraborrty both pointed out in the Guardian yesterday it is easier to seek explanation through the blinkers of what we want or expect to see (a racist police force, a negligent political class, a broken and unhappy Britain). And as Mehdi Hasan points out, this will continue to be the norm, even as evidence to confound such stereotypes emerges from the courts.

But what if instead of looking for what we wanted to see we looked for what we didn't? What if we looked for ourselves among the nameless faces of the street? We may then notice that the fact we are so spoiled for choice as to possible reasons for the riots is easily the most damning thing of all and easily indicts us all.

The geographer David Harvey has to date been one of the few to actually stick his neck out and say this. The looters, he says, "are only doing what everyone else is doing, though in a different way - more blatantly and visibly in the streets." Harvey points to a moral equivalence between the looters at work on the streets and those whose looting simply takes more acceptable forms, the better to eat you my dear. We are all looters at heart, Harvey says and we are all pushed to be feral in our way. The system encourages us to be so:

Feral politicians cheat on their expenses, feral bankers plunder the public purse for all its worth, CEOs, hedge fund operators and private equity geniuses loot the world of wealth, telephone and credit card companies load mysterious charges on everyone's bills, shopkeepers price gouge, and, at the drop of a hat swindlers and scam artists get to practice three-card monte right up into the highest echelons of the corporate and political world.

This will of course be too clear-cut for some and smack of a single cause itself. But the structural violence of capitalism (be it widening forms of inequality or deteriorating conditions for work) and the physical violence of the street needs to be taken seriously if there is to be another Scarman-type report. And any such report needs to not simply remind us again of the end-stage factors of social privations, personal resentments and collective distrust that we know blights communities in our cities. It needs to ask how the wider forces of social order and political economy create this mixture in the first place.

It must look beyond the usual suspects to ascertain, for example, whether the relationship between the premeditated breaking of the law by the rich and the opportunistic breaking of the law by the poor is of a casual or a causal nature. It should go so far as to consider too the government's handling of the response, since we have been here several times before now. In short it should shine a light on the system itself rather than merely the symptoms.

Which means, in essence, that it could do worse than to bear in mind the wider point Harvey is making: that when capitalism is allowed to run fast and loose and 'feral', and when only the rich get to decide the rules of the game, then such eruptions on our streets become no less predictable an outcome than the fact that the FTSE 100 opens each morning at eight. It should dare to bear in mind that the more predatory forms of capitalism do not a community make.

Simon Reid-Henry is a lecturer at Queen Mary, University of London.

Tags: London Riots

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View the discussion thread.

43 comments

Tue, 2011-08-16 18:01 — ubicaritas (not verified)

Shane -

Thanks for link you posted earlier on here - really glad to read/listen to your thoughtful, but passionate contributions there as shoebox - Birmingham's really showing the passion for the honest way forward; inspiration to us all to do whatever we can to fight all forms of injustice, and 'know ourselves'.

Blessings to you all xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sun, 2011-08-14 00:21 — stuart (not verified)

middle and upper class anger and angst at the white and black poor underclasses rioting and looting there booty like the 100s of mps done and did not wanted exposed..now the revenge,,,police kicking down and battering doors of the underclasses,,did you see many mps doors recieve the same treatment,,,6 months in pokey for nicking a bottle of mineral water worth £3.50 while 100s of mps got away with robbing the taxpayers of £1000s claimimg for all types of booty,,,now the judges handing out severe sentences for minor offences,,,just a recipe for more hatred and worst violence in the coming years...

Sun, 2011-08-14 01:22 — Lox (not verified)

@RJD-I think you might be missing the point. Everyone-without exception-agrees that social and economic policies are ultimately to blame for the riots. But which? Social policies which let chidren miss out on the development of self-discipline, on the prospect of reward for effort, and a sense of their own value to themselves and their communities? The meretricious values of an economy built on consumption of imported tat? And, of course, the amorality of our politicians-of all parties? I'd blame them all.
So what can we do? I'd like to see kids taught the value of the work ethic, for a start. In every society, people will define themselves by the value of the work that they do. But that's a habit that needs to be instilled from an early age, and it involves parents first, the state second. For boys in particular it involves having as role models grown men who can show them how to live constructive lives: if a couple can't live together, fine-but a man with any trace of character should still be involved with his children.
Economically, make it easy for individuals and groups to start new businesses. Set corporation tax on a sliding scale so that if a company employs less than ten people, for example, it'll pay a fraction of the tax that a huge company does.
As for politicians-every last one of the MPs identified as having abused the system should have had the value of their dodgy expenses deducted from their salaries. Insist that every vacancy for employment by an MP should be publically advertised with an audited recruitment process, instead of being handed to a relative.
I was perhaps unnnecessarily rude to the author of the article, and I apologise. But last week's riots are not my fault. I work hard, pay taxes and treat other people with respect and consideration. I've tried to bring up my children with the same values. So I simply won't accept that I'm in anyway complicit with what happened in England.

Tue, 2011-08-16 19:37 — Shane (not verified)

Thank you - look forward to your feedback - Mean time how do I put a ping/ trackback to this page on my post - Do I simply just put the link inside it? Soory that may sound like a newb question.

Tue, 2011-08-16 20:57 — ubicaritas (not verified)

Sorry, babe - you got the wrong person if that was to me!!! I don't even know what a ping/trackback thingy is!! Won't an ordinary link do?

ANYONE?

Will def. leave some feedback on yr. site, though; there are some things I wanted to say. Bit later.

By the way, I don't think it's at all true to say that what you've written is 'dumbed down' (as you said earlier). As someone that's passionate about language, I'd say it stands without apology - stay with it; write from the heart!

Sat, 2011-08-13 11:55 — A. Cole (not verified)

I have no stake in the violence as I neither took part in or condone the violence.

How about a mention of the feral communism of Stalin and Mao from the author?

Typical lop- sided lefty drivel!

Sat, 2011-08-13 12:02 — Richard Albright1

This article is utter nonsense, apologist spittle. If this is all the left can come up with after 4 days of violent criminality, the political left are not only economically bankrupt, but morally also. I have purchased the New Statesman for many years, but will now be ending my long association with this failing magazine..

Sun, 2011-08-14 09:26 — Freeman2

One of the most important lessons of the riots for the radical left is the one we always learn in riots - that a few hundred determined people can run rings round the police (who are bravest when they are armed and their victim isn't) and get them on the run. Good news for the revolutionary days to come and this should be an inspiration. Kettle the police.

Sun, 2011-08-14 09:29 — Freeman2

Lox writes, 'Set corporation tax on a sliding scale so that if a company employs less than ten people, for example, it'll pay a fraction of the tax that a huge company does.'

'that a huge company DOESN'T' I think you mean. That is the issue, not encouraging a few more kids setting up ten hairdressing businesses in one street.

Sat, 2011-08-13 12:35 — Lox (not verified)

Have to agree with Richard A above. This is posturing, opportunistic, adolescent drivel. Did you actually pay for this crap?

Sat, 2011-08-13 13:02 — Dark Heart of Toryland (not verified)

Always good to see such reasoned and intellectually measured comment from the right.

Sat, 2011-08-13 13:07 — Richard Abright (not verified)

NOT ANY MORE!!

Sat, 2011-08-13 13:09 — Lox (not verified)

Dark Heart, I'm not on the right. And I'm not doing what the looters are doing: I'm not attacking my neighbours and their property. Are you? If you are, then go ahead and flaggelate yourself all you want.
I don't blame the rioters, particularly. I blame a system that's divorced kids from empathy and a sense of consequence and given them a sense of entitlement and resentment instead. It's not capitalism that's done that-it's a tired and discredited state system that's been content to allow human potential to fester, rather than give people the gift of control of their own destinies.

Sun, 2011-08-14 12:15 — Lox (not verified)

It's an issue, Freeman. Not THE issue. And if you think that the potential aspirations of some of the kids involved in last week's violence are limited to setting up hairdressing salons, then that implies that you're either unimaginative or a complete snob. Take your pick.

Sat, 2011-08-13 13:16 — Richard Albright (not verified)

Dark Heart of Toryland: It's always good to have 'reasoned and intellectually measured comment from the left'!! This intellectually challenged drivel is not...

Sat, 2011-08-13 13:51 — Homo Sapiens

It will be instructive to compare the severity with which our judicial system and CPS treated members of our legislature caught with their hands in the till last year, and the punishment to be meted out to the youngsters thieving bottled water, trainers, televisions etc etc

Sat, 2011-08-13 13:59 — gladiolys (not verified)

Um, it's not capitalism per se, and neither is it benefits/welfare per se but the collision that occurs when all these collide in consumerism. If you are endlessly bombarded with message that you are what you wear/drive/use to communicate and are then denied the legitimate means to participate in this consumerism, there's going to be a problem, n'est ce pas?

Sat, 2011-08-13 14:55 — terence patrick hewett1

George Fabius Maximus

Who played with a Dangerous Toy, and suffered a Catastrophe
of considerable Dimensions.

When George's Grandmamma was told
That George had been as good as gold,
She promised in the afternoon
To buy him an Immense Balloon.

And so she did; but when it came,
It got into the candle flame,

And being of a dangerous sort
Exploded with a loud report!
The lights went out! The windows broke!
The room was filled with reeking smoke.
And in the darkness shrieks and yells
Were mingled with electric bells,
And falling masonry and groans,
And crunching, as of broken bones,
And dreadful shrieks, when, worst of all,
The house itself began to fall!
It tottered, shuddering to and fro,
Then crashed into the street below—
Which happened to be Savile Row.

When help arrived, among the dead
Were Cousin Mary, Little Fred,
The Footmen (both of them),
. . . . the Groom,
The man that cleaned the Billiard-Room,
The Chaplain, and
. . . .the Still-Room Maid.
And I am dreadfully afraid
That Monsieur Champignon, the Chef,
Will now be permanently deaf—

And both his aides are much the same;
While George, who was in part to blame,
Received, you will regret to hear,
A nasty lump behind the ear.

MORAL:

The moral is that little boys
Should not be given dangerous toys.

Sun, 2011-08-14 15:06 — mediumal57

Triggs'

Nicely put man. I'm of the Left politically, but I cannot stand some of those on the Left who claim to speak for social justice for the under-privilaged and ignore the facts. No single cause and effect has been identified here. If we are all to blame and the system is rotten, why wasn't everyone on benefits rioting and looting?

Crime is a social problem to be sure. But it cannot be talked out of existence, because once again it isn't caused by one factor.

Our society is based upon most of us agreeing to cooperate and being reasonably respectful of one another. Unfortunately we have amongst us elements who for a number of reasons cannot live right, but want to get by through dishonest means. This is not limited to poor people at all either. It runs through the whole of society from top to bottom of the socio-economic pecking order. Society only has one weapon against criminals - the Law. We are also reliant upon a police force and our judicial system to uphold our Laws. When they cannot you get vigilantes and another type of anarchy.

The wholesale violence and destuction of propery and the looting that has occutrred this past week was primarily inspired by a belief amongst a now sizeable minority we see of people who pillaged because for a while they totally forgot the normal rules of decency. Whether this was driven by financial hardship- in some cases maybe- lack of respect for others - certainly, particularly the police I cannot say for certain. All I know is that those responsible for this act of terrorism - and it was anarchic criminal terrorism - need to be dealt with first of all by the courts and punished. We can start looking at individaul circumstances of the looters afterwards.

Sat, 2011-08-13 15:27 — enzee199 (not verified)

We didn't all get it wrong. I posted on Facebook, and on Laurie Penny's blog 'Global financial markets in meltdown whilst one of it's key nodes in flames'

Got shouted down for it mind!

Sun, 2011-08-14 17:18 — Freeman2

Lox: Given the choice I think I'd rather be unimaginative.

Sat, 2011-08-13 16:29 — A Triggs (not verified)

I just wish there was an option for the people who looted, and for Simon Reid-Henry, who seem so discontented with this country, who feel it's falling apart at the knees; that option being to f**k of somewhere else! I hear Syria is nice this time of year. If you cannot see why you have all this choice you deem a right instead of a privilege, than take your head out of your arse and look around at the people work, the taxes they pay, the lives and society they respect. No-one said capitalism is perfect, but that is life, nothing's perfect, not even democracy. So deal with it, just understand one thing; the more you do for your neighbour the more they'll do for you.

Sun, 2011-08-14 18:35 — Lox (not verified)

Hi Freeman, excellent choice. I didn't intend to be rude, but...if you tell someone that they're good for cutting hair and little else, the best you can hope for is a contended barber. If you tell them that they're limited only by their imagination, abilities and capacity for hard work, then the sky's the limit.

Sat, 2011-08-13 17:04 — Daniele1

I cannot believe the right wing ignorant drivel in the comments above.
The argument in this article makes perfect sense. We are reaping the product of the excesses of capitalism and the madness of consumerism.
Things looked fine while the vast majority of the consumers (that is what we are now, NOT citizens) had a job and means to obtain all these goods we were told made us worth being alive.Now a substantial number of people, young people in particular, are realizing that all this stuff is in fact out of reach and they don't believe they have a future in this society. To compound the problem you have a vast disparity between the rich and the poor in this country, the worst in Europe, similar to the horrendous gap between the American rich and poor.Envy sets in and festers into anger and eventually violence.Because we don't teach our kids that other things apart from money and consumer goods, have any value,these kids feel "robbed"
The complete absence of human values and of a moral compass delivers the perfect storm.
When the disaffected see that "their betters", only a few weeks before the riots, have been shown to behave with NO morality whatsoever, when politicians, bankers, the police, celebrities, journalists, all behave like thieves and greedy despicable and cynical scumbags, I am surprised that anybody is surprised by these riots.
I'd say they were inevitable. To put it all down to ordinary criminality is to be disingenuous or in denial. In the case of Cameron, I suspect a bit of both.
If we do not wake up and take control of the capitalist system we live in, they will happen again and again.

Sun, 2011-08-14 21:23 — ubicaritas (not verified)

@Lox
'the gift of control of their own destinies'

'If you tell them that they're limited only by their imagination, abilities and capacity for hard work, then the sky's the limit'

@mediuma157

'normal rules of decency'

'Our society is based upon most of us agreeing to cooperate and being reasonably respectful of one another.'

I think the statements above are flawed from an unconsciously false starting point; firstly that our society is based on an intrinsic equality of position that makes it possible for anyone to realise ambitions that give them a sense of identity and self-worth, and secondly that our society is based on any form of altruism (what I assume people mean by 'decency')

Just look at the projections of the values espoused by our society in all media, advertising, the things we 'own' and in the behaviour and statements of 99% of persons in any form of power or in the public eye; see who and what we adulate as a people.

Pretend you are a 'martian' (or some kind of 'fly on the wall') trying to get intelligence about our way of life and look on our artefacts - what would you glean about what we hold dear?

I truly believe that we have cast all restraint behind us through the past 30 years and 'come out' as out and out 'I'm alright Jack-ers' - the prevailing virtue, yes, VIRTUE, that our society upholds is total SELFISHNESS.

We do, indeed, 'co-operate' with our peers; it is in our interests to do so - the rioters were also co-operating with their peers.

And, yes, unless we do more than 'love those who love us' and go beyond the 'morality' of preserving calm in our own neck of the woods, we are all complicit - by virtue of our lack of protest that anyone at all is suffering, downtrodden or despised from systems and structures that we are beneficiaries of.

We are not born into a vacuum and some are of us are born into advantage (of whatever kind) and some us are born with weights around our ankles. 'Responsibility' doesn't mean 'caring for those who can reciprocate the 'favour' - it means
'from those who have much, much will be required.'

If we hear this sign of the times we will reinstate the power of LOVE as the ultimate virtue, and that begins with each of us having a good look at ourselves, and determining to fight for this however we can.

It is the deification of selfishness that is the 'sickness' in, not just 'pockets' of our society, but our society as a whole.

What arrant hypocrisy and self-righteousness is displayed in that 'sickness of pockets of our society' statement, in view of the whole series of events revealing corruption, lies, greed and theft which engaged us as a nation in the weeks prior to the riots!

Sun, 2011-08-14 21:56 — Robin Smith (not verified)

I agree with the context here. And among the wider classes of looters you forgot to mention the largest:

Landowners.

Who receive the most enormous unearned incomes through private property in land. Tax free.

The biggest landowners are the banks. Their biggest assets being mortgages.

The London rebels stole and destroyed £200 million, once. The bankster parasites steal £200 billion annually. 1000 times worse.

The leaders we voted for bail them out with tax payers money. And punish the rebels, already essentially slaves.

The people cop out and support the hypocrisy.

Sun, 2011-08-14 23:11 — ubicaritas (not verified)

Just one example of the hideous malfunction of our society (and our bland acceptance of its ills):

RBS (Nat West etc) end of year accounts show a LOSS of £1.1 billion.

Nevertheless, a total of over £21 million in BONUSES (ie on top of the usual excessive wages) was paid that same year (last tax year) to the top 5 execs., and an average of £1 million (BONUSES on top of wages) to around 300 'lesser' execs.

WHAT can anyone want with such crazy amounts of money? Isn't it really wickedly outrageously wrong?

And yet Mervyn King (Bank of Eng) has commented on the amazing fact that 'the public' don't seem especially bothered by this - he is 'surprised that the public is not more angry' at the bankers.

It is after all a risky business to 'speak truth to power'.

Sat, 2011-08-13 18:17 — Luddite (not verified)

Daniele wrong again!! 'makes perfect sense' it may do to a political fantasist such as yourself.. 'socially excluded' 'disaffected' try living in Somalia watching your children die one by one from hunger or better still try being 10 years old in Pakistan working 15 hours a day making mud bricks for fuck-all. Daniele the most disturbing thing about people such as yourself is you actually think yourself a good parson?

Mon, 2011-08-15 00:56 — ubicaritas (not verified)

Flashbuck,

It seems inappropriate to make a cheap jibe out of such a tragedy as the deaths of three young people.

If we care about people's suffering in this, we will surely want things to change, and that must mean engaging without dissimulation with the issues to the best of our ability; trying to properly identify what we (ie YOU, ME) need to do to fight for a less tragic society.

Its not about clever comments; its about caring passionately; caring enough to try to really get our heads around what we can do, and first we have to try to accurately understand the malaise.

Things have a context; they don't happen in a vacuum.

I wanted to give some actual figures re. the bankers because I think a lot of people are quite unaware of them, and really don't know that this 'sickness' is widespread.

Unless we understand that it is not an aberration in our society to loot and steal, but one of its primary norms (which is what the article is about), we are barking up the wrong tree as regards remedy, and as regards how we (YOU and ME, not just commentators and politicians) can fight for a better future.

Sarcasm doesn't cut it - this is serious, isn't it, ffs?

Tue, 2011-08-16 13:20 — Shane (not verified)

Oh my God - I finished and posted my own views about this yesterday and came across this today - You seem a lot more clever by the language you use but I think we are saying the same, I didn't think anyone else thought as deep as this (self relection ) Its not about far left or right ! Ignore the above comments its natural to be defensive and pass off blame , hence why they dont agree. Would you take a look at mine by any chance and perhaps criticize or leave feedback. Its my first ever post as a blogger. Its also dumbed down a lot because I'm trying to reach out to like minded people. It's at http://www.mcshoebox.me/blog/in-the-news/how-do-you-compare-to-the-looters
If you wan't I will link to you if you would link to me - Is that a trackback?

Sat, 2011-08-13 19:10 — Daniele1

Luddite, surely you are not that stupid that you think the plight of Somalia is remotely relevant to this discussion.Or are you proposing to send the looters to Somalia to see what real hardship looks like?
I am not even remotely excusing the rioters. What is it that for some people , trying to UNDERSTAND how and why there are so many "criminals"on our streets (who look just like your neighbour)is excusing them in some way? If you don't try to make sense of their behaviour and act on the causes of that behaviour, it will only happen again.Simple as that.
Repression and shooting the bastards is not going to work in the long run. You can't maintain a civilised society through just repression and sending people to jail.You need to do something to the political or social system which produced such people in the first place.
What is "disturbing" about that, may I ask?

Tue, 2011-08-16 14:00 — Shane (not verified)

That Richard Allbright writes his comment about your post being nonsense then leaves throwing his toys out the pram "Im not reading your news any more"? But doesnt actually argue a valid point or any point at all. This makes me think he is some one in a higher class that is too up his own... to admint that just maybe he also loots but in a sophisticated way.

Mon, 2011-08-15 08:03 — Luddite (not verified)

We all own the violence!! NO WE DON'T!! Stop tying to blame 'ALL' for your political failings.

Fri, 2011-08-19 13:36 — Shane (not verified)

Yeah a normal link is fine. I wanted to credit you for your work with a pingback as I thought this is normal (not that I know how to do it lol)Im on my work pc so once you leave a comment on my page I can then add your link into my post. I can't take paper or email from work so will never know your web url at home. I have comment luv added so once you comment on my post you can also add your latest post to your comment. Hopefully this will get some of my viewers to see your page too !

Tue, 2011-08-16 15:36 — Shane (not verified)

Flashbuck
14 August 2011 at 22:53
@ubicaritas
@Flashbuck
"So the rioters drove a car at three guys and killed them because the bankers get bonuses, eh? ok, gotcha! "

Flashbuck @Daniele sed it best. You are defending your opinion that the rioters are wrong against someone that has not disagreed with you?

You therefore have no valid counter argument to what was actually just said.
Of course the rioters didnt drive a car and kill 3 people because of bankers bonuses.
What has been said is "every layer/ class of society in some way shape or form "loots". We just get more sophisticated in the way we do it and become blind to our own method and start to tell ourselves we are not the same - Please read my post my approach is slightly different but everyone fits somewhere within it -

Sat, 2011-08-13 21:25 — capt-price (not verified)

Daniele: Don't rise to Luddite. He's like that other prick Eels.
They roam these boards actively seeking out viewpoints they disagree with. Whining, needling and sneering at every proclamation. It's addictive to them, in the same way Tetris is addictive. It appeals to the 'lab rat' part of their brain.

Just another Luddite belch in the swirling online guff storm.

Sat, 2011-08-13 21:35 — RJD

Sensible intelligent analysis like this is frustratingly filtered out of the mainstream (auntie beeb) media whose job it is to protect the establishment from facing the ugly truth that their social and economic policies are the ultimate cause of the chaos we saw this week. It is madness to argue that the unconsciuous youth are solely to blame and that there is something inherently wrong with them. This argument denies that they grow up in societies led by people who determine the opportunities available to all within them. These same pro- establisment types are the first to take the credit or assign credit to the leaders for group successes. You can't have it both ways. Either we live in societies in which our success depends on the success of the majority or we don't in which case abolish govt and announce every man for himself. Which actually is the tory holy grail.

Sat, 2011-08-13 21:39 — RJD

I am also revulsed by the level of hatred directed at the youtj in general. Again, take a look in the mirror. We have spent the last 15 yrs despising the less priveleged of the younger generation and the chickens are coming home to roost.

Tue, 2011-08-16 16:51 — rob andersen (not verified)

Danielle, you wrote;
"Luddite, surely you are not that stupid that you think the plight of Somalia is remotely relevant to this discussion.Or are you proposing to send the looters to Somalia to see what real hardship looks like".
It is relevant. EVERYTHING is connected.

Sending kids(or anyone who has 'nothing')in this country on VSO programmes, letting them see the dirty shitty conditions that mothers whose daughters are habitually raped in front of them (remeber Srebenica anyone, our own back yard), see those mothers feeding their babies ditrty water- Or is it all a bit much for the hard done by rioters?
The police effed it. The muppets are taking the mickey because they can, and any answers pertaining to an increase in their 'consciousness' will lie in disconnecting them from the life support that taxpayers provide so freely. They have been dumbed down, but they are not dumb, actually it's up to them to sort themselves out because mankind as a whole is not evolved to help them-if they become tomorrow's prisoners, so be it. Sad, but if it's sad you're looking for, there's far far worse
@ Ubacaritas- nicely put;
"If we hear this sign of the times we will reinstate the power of LOVE as the ultimate virtue, and that begins with each of us having a good look at ourselves" REALLY nicely put. Love , the opposite of hate...that is blinding the truly searching questions, instead happy to rely on it's criumbling base of die hard reds... MP@S will get away with expenses... WHY!!?? because both sides were at it. NS won't do anything, neither will the right, or anyone.
Middle class, oxbridge, no stake in a business, no stake in anything...

Tue, 2011-08-16 17:19 — ubicaritas (not verified)

rob andersen:

"@ Ubacaritas- nicely put;

"If we hear this sign of the times we will reinstate the power of LOVE as the ultimate virtue, and that begins with each of us having a good look at ourselves"

REALLY nicely put. Love , the opposite of hate...that is blinding the truly searching questions, instead happy to rely on it's criumbling base of die hard reds... MP@S will get away with expenses... WHY!!?? because both sides were at it. NS won't do anything, neither will the right, or anyone.

Middle class, oxbridge, no stake in a business, no stake in anything..."

I'm probably being thick, but I just can't work out what you're saying here; could you clarify?

What is the heart of your argument?