What really makes me angry is not the rioters as much as so much of the commentary by the media and the people who parrot them.

Why must anyone who actually seeks to understand the underlying social problems of which there are many, preface every statement with 'I am not defending the rioters' actions this, would in any educated society, go without saying. The problem is so many people have a desire (which is undertsandable to SOME extent) to bury their heads in the sand and opt for simple easy answers. These are the people making excuses - making excuses for a society with unaccepatble levels of child poverty and a society that offers its kids less than their parents - nobody is trying to make excuses for the rioters; but the a huge number of people are trying to excuse our unequal and moral corrupt society!

The increased social dislocation - especially of the young - that Ken was highlighting is surely a factor and I think he was quite right to draw attention to it. I fail to see how this can be described as opportunism.

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"My guess is that the left know it and are trying to make political ground by inventing a relationship between the two."

And a pretty poor guess it is too. As for the rest of your rant, I think I read this in the Daily Mail and know there is no point in engaging in debate.

It is outrageous if anybody implies that the riots and looting relate in any way to the government and local government cuts.

It has nothing to do with with anything other than simply gang looting and arson because they know they can do it and get away with it.

My guess is that the left know it and are trying to make political ground by inventing a relationship between the two.

Seeing Ken Livingstone on News 24 trying to win votes was a disgrace.

We need to get tough these people and take them off the streets of Britain once and for all. They do not contribute to society and effect others lives in a negative way. They are a drain on us all.

Britain will lurch to the right not left because of this as middle England will not associate the problems with anything other than the Blair/Brown era of Broken Britain and gangs of criminals taking advantage of soft policing brought about through relentless criticism from the left.

I believe in a tolerant and libertarian society, but in order to achieve this we need to crack down massively on any proven violence against person or property.

I share others' dismay over the nature of this unrest but I think it is FAR from spurious to link the rioting with the cuts and even more pertinently, the wider economic context. While the casino capitalists were looting our economy with impunity, the underclass were kept quiescent with the promise of cheap credit to buy the plasma TVs and sports shoes they still desire. Now the kids of this underclass are angry and hungry for 'stuff' that they have been taught to want. At the same time, the EMA has been slashed, uni tuition fees are hiked out of reach, youth services are cut, and households live in fear of unemployment and poverty. I don't condone their actions, and I am mad as hell that my home Borough, Hackney has been trashed and will now be maligned and castigated. But to term this 'mindless' or 'mob' without looking at the underlying causes is a serious betrayal of liberal values. Get real, George Eaton!

There is no connection between cuts, poverty, lack of hope and rioting. These are just thugs and this is a coincidence, just as it was in 1981. That is clear. I know for a fact many of the people rioting in Peckham last night broke off from holidays in Tuscany, the South of France and California to return to kick the crap out of Foot Locker.

Marcus - of course because this never happened before under Thatcher or anything? By blaming this on the Blair/Brown era and left 'soft policing', you are instantly doing what you're criticizing Ken Livingstone for - using this situation to promote ideas of the right.

This isn't about left and right, it's about leadership, this riot has shown that the coalition are an administrators, not a government. I couldn't agree more with stronger police measures to crush the rioting, but people of the UK can feel failed by the feebleness of the government's response.

I was wondering why they couldn't get those helicopters with the water tanks (similar to the forest fire ones), get water from the thames then pour over the burning houses? quicker than waiting for the fire brigade?

Oh and water cannons would be good to put out the car fires and the shop fires in the daytime?

and maybe Cameron should deliver a stark harsh message and let the looters call the governments bluff. Maybe in the lines of:

get caught, not british? get deported immediate effect, family too

get caught, british?, jail and benefits stopped for all family members.

Hopefully their parents should 'try' to hold their kids instead of letting them riot.

if all else fails, bring in the army to protect the streets. I'd try not use rubber bullets as they would probably cuase proper warfare on the streets...

writeoff

If you "know for a fact" the Peckham thugs who smashed up Footlocker had cut short their holidays to join in the shenanigans, you must know who these people are, or else you know someone who does know them.

Are you going to do the honorable thing and report the thugs to the police.

The elderly lady from Hackney said it all .. but it shows how many ferral youth are among us know, it`s easy to blame parents but what do you do with wild young men ? tie them up in the house ? lock all of them up in over crowded prison with no rehabilitation courses so they come out worse .. there is no easy answer. 2000 people have been murdered on the streets of Syria, lets hope it doesn`t come to that ..

This situation is truly awfull and the criminals should be delt with. But barmy Boris is cutting police numbers and if all the council workers are sacked who going to clean up the mess.

Too much individualism methinks. Today's ideologies promote blind pursuit of individual pleasure and satisfaction above all else. These people frankly dont care about others. A firm hand from the state is needed to restrain them and put them back into line. Then we should show them that the joys of life lie not in fleeting pleasures but the tapestry of hope and learning that is self-enlightenment and improvement.
http://mtwopence.blogspot.com/2011/08/riotous-individualism.html

It may 'unwise' to make a direct connection between the cuts and riots; but the dominant pithy phrase 'criminality pure and simple' robs the riots of their context and offers no useful explanation.

The fact remains many of Red Kens points are valid. The cuts to EMA, for example, have led to large numbers of young people fearing they may not be able to continue with education. It is well known job prospects for the young are few and far between and even those with jobs will have little chance of home ownership (before the age of 40) and no pension to look forward to. Young people are facing worse living standards then their parents for the first time in hundreds of years - if not ever - ignore these facts at your peril!

Of course all this may not be at the forefront of the minds of the looters; however one need not have a degree in psychology to see that their wideley reported 'fearlessness' must stem from a feeling of having no stake in society - as Ken rightly pointed out!

@Dmitri - Just to be clear i was not blaming Blair/Brown myself. I was saying that middle England will blame them.

Oh yes, it is the cuts. Spending has already been slashed 0%, and with the 2011-12 budget, cuts are going to be a whopping 0.6%.

Who knew we were 0.6% away from total mayhem.

"We read this week that there are 50 people chasing every one job in Tottenham, where unemployment is at 18%."

Then try looking outside Tottenham. FFS, people make it all the way from Poland and find work in Tottenham, but the locals can't manage to get on a bus?

This is classic soft bigotry of low expectations. Endless excuse making, rationalising, justifying.

Spot on comment by David Wearing "Credit to Livingstone for articulating these vital points. How are we going to stop these things happening again if we're not willing to sensibly examine their causes?"

You're suck a dick. EVERY piece of footage on EVERY news channel has shown black AND WHITE people in it engaging in rioting looting.

Stop projecting your own racial prejudices on here you utter moron

turn the local fone mast off. these kids have worked oyut that no police system can cope if everyone thieves at the same time.
long term solutions? start by recognising that once 18, kid unlikely to change it's ways (criminal recoed, prison, reoffend, waste of a life...) Parents are to blame mainly, that's another fact our woossy society has to deal with- we don't like pinning anyone now, easier blam a govt dept, much easier than staring one person in the face and telling them they are a bad parent. Young people making a point.... pull the other one

guy-debord

Yes they do indeed show blacks and whites engaged in the looting and I hope they lock them up for a very long. That doesn't make you any better than Luddite.

You can't seem to string a comment together without descending into the sewer, doesn't make you clever just shows what an halfwit you truly are.

What really gets me is the obvious. We hear why its poverty, or cut backs, the economic meltdown so and so on. DO you really think that these kids, the youth even know what economic depression is?. I think not. When the problem is so obvious, the only reason i can formulate why many people overlook the obvious is down to not being labelled a racist. Black culture especially hip hop, and rap is one the glorifies drugs, violence, sex, abuse, immoral values, THIS IS what is being taught to the young generations. When such an immoral culture is being promoted as african culture or black culture, it has been hijacked by uneducated, intolerant, aggresive, parentless youths, who believe they are fully supported in their immoral values as society ITSELF, promotes these ideals. When african mothers and fathers stand up and say actually hip hop rap all gangster themed entertainment IS NOT AFRICAN CULTURE. When africans themselves stand against such immoral activies, regardless of race, when those parents, and soceity take steps the situation will decrease. Children needed to be guided, not asked what they want to do, the complete ban and restriction of sexual, violent, provocative music is needed, a complete restriction on glorying gangsterism. Morals needed to be taught. Africans MUST realise themselves that hip hop, rap, always referring to yourself as black, is racist, is demeaning, and is negative.

The unanswerred question is not how do we punish those who commit mayhem on our streets. It is how we prevent it happening in the first place. I watched in horror as police stood by as looters broke into shop after shop jeering at the police who were unable to stop them becaise they lacked the tools to do so.

What do we hear from our leadsers? A lot of cr#p about policing by consent. Well! I do not consent to criminals having freedom to destroy cities and terrorise our citizens, while the police look on. There is a simple answer which would also allow cuts in policing cost: Do as virtually every other Western democracy does - arm the police and shoot criminals who terrorise and loot in their face.

It is unfair to ask our police to face thugs with petrol bombs, bricks and other potentially lethal missles with no superior armament in their defence. Yes! we did all see the police fail in their duty to protect citizens and their property night after night, but we cannot blame them any more than we could the BEF or the French troops who could not stop the German blitzcreig in 1940.

To the Newstatesman I urge you to give maximum coverage to the Ugov poll published to-day. Only 33% were in favour of live bullets but 77% thought tyhe army should brought in, query, without bullets?. 90% thought water cannon should have been used and 65% plastic bullets. We are now told the last two are available if requested. If I were still living in London or Bristol as once I did, I would be asking why the hell were they not?

'School's Out!' This rumble is surely linked to the school year and the way it is structured.
One of our number, a retired police officer, states that vandalism and burglaries always increase during the holiday breaks taken during the school year.
It's about time Smikey Gove did something about these young tearaways. Just because schools and students spend a good quarter of the calendar year twiddling their thumbs, there is no need for him to follow suit.
As Secretary of Education Gove is responsible for these young people whether they are in the classroom or recreating.

Six of the Best

The west indian matriarch, facing the looting kids with nothing more than her force of personality and her life experience, strikes me as far more heroic than a gang of ex terrorists, breaking heads instead.

But then, I don't idolise the violent. Unlike most commentators. And most rioting kids.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to welcome the world to the 2012 London Olympics...welcome to a country who's politicians have failed so badly that nine yesr old chldren are being described as belonging to the criminal underclass...welcome