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He has spoken up for the low-paid workers whose standard of life has been forced down by excessive i
Tags: Blue Labour
Caleb, of course people born in the UK are those that matter, WE elect the government to serve US, not foreigners. Otherwise, we may as well have a world government and a new world order, which is something I would be opposed to because I believe in national sovereignty and I feel a greater attachment to people in this country than those from abroad.
Okay, so some people are very badly off in countries like India and Pakistan, but we have extreme poverty in this country exacerbated by immigration. Why shouldn't our government look after English people first, before wasting aid on countries like India that are actually growing at a fantastic rate anyway.
Moreover, you mention how immigrants or their descendants will contribute to the productivity of the economy. Firstly, this is dubious as a house of lords economic select committee said. Moreover, economists like Lord Layard (a Labour supporter btw) has refuted the "immigration is good for the economy" arguments, especially in his book on happiness.
I don't see how it's racist to put our people first before migrants. That's an imminently sensible policy pursued by countries the world over. Why should we be so accommodating when no one else is?
The socialist hypocrite who sends her son to a private school and who is an apologist for the Zimbabwe Mugabe regime.
Your credibity is ZERO token black woman!
Good debate although marred by a few idiots resorting to ad homimens/personal abuse. Although I don't agree with Lou's particular stance she argues her points well and doesn't warrant the nasty abuse)where is the moderator in all this?). She has my sympathy and admiration.
I think I agree with Rob on the whole, and again you argue well without recourse to abuse. I agree the Left has lost the plot. Having ditched class and universality in the 80s in favour of the 'new left' focus on identity poltics, has lead to an empty faux radicalism. Guilty bourgeois sentiments are no substitute for a genuine leftist, grounded in stictly secular terms. Large sections of the liberal left have made the mistake of treating Islam as some kind of 'pseudo race'. And whilst people are entitled to their private metaphysical belief systems in so far as they don't push hate and violence, the state should offer no sponsorship or mollycoddling of religion.
And unfettered mass immigration is the vehicle by which the capitalist state is able to inject that all crucial 'flexibility' into its labour markets. The Bank of England and CBI recognise the use of immigration in curtailing inflation and wage demands.
The way in which some sections of the right use immigration to attack the indigenous unemployed is also highly inflammatory and is practically an open invitation to join the ranks of the EDL. Urgent rethink required!!!
I'll gladly come to stoke on trent, I know it well, and I will explain that the immigrant is not the problem, I'll lay bare the percentages, the facts and the statistics as to who is doing what, taking what and depriving whom of what but I can guarantee you now cerain people will not be persuaded.
The immigrant card is a card waved most passionately as a proxy for everything else. Get the govt to fix all the problems and you'd still have people blaming the immigrants, the Muslim and the non white population.
Oh and I'm further North than Islington and Stoke on Trent for that matter. And before the next question....yes I am white, I am British born and bred of white parentage as well. So - next????
Attack all you will,it says far more about you than it does me, you will not shut me up and clearly I'm touching a nerve the amount of abuse I've had.
Cole tells lies again.
I presume you refer to Diane's speech to the house about the housing of Zimbabwean detainees in a G4 controlled centre in a punitive manner and inhumanely?
Or maybe it's about her signing a motion deploring deportations along with many other MPs, where she was hoping to protect people being sent back to Mugabe's regime?
Either way, Diane is not quite the apologist for Mugabe you state, rather more a defender of human rights and a campaigner against human rights abuse.
Once again, colour defines your comments, you claim not to be racist but you constantly refer to people by colour.
Once again, your best argument is a personal attack.
Once again, you are factually incorrect.
Now whose credibility is zero?
As the stats in the article show, people don't want to stop immigration (SR819 - I think most people recognise that we have a duty to take in immigrants, we always have and it is part of our make-up), but they also don't want mass immigration (Lou - you seem to reject that immigration can have a negative impact on anyone).
There is a difference between the scapegoating of eastern europeans/muslims/gypsies/immigrants (apparently on lots of benefits) in the mail and accepting that some people do have concerns. Personally, I feel more naturally inclined to Lou's position but we have to recognise that most people don't see it that way and shouldn't ignore it.
Spell it out: HOW HAS MASS IMMIGRATION BENEFITTED THE WHITE WORKING CLASSES????
Work your way back through a number of postings in recent weeks where I have challenged you time and time again to provide evidence for your comments and questions for you to answer and you haven't answered any because you ignore what you cannot answer. Then you'll see why I am not rushing to answer you.
And for what ends, so you can throw a few more insults because the facts I lay before you show you up?
Troll along love
I haven't called anywhere at any time for mass immigration or open borders. I recognise their are concerns that are rooted in real problems - I just don't blame immigrants for everything and wave the 'it's all immigants fault' banner when it isn't.
The liberal left won't answer that question because it is manifest that mass immigration has badly affected the white working class. This is not BNP propaganda. Read the research by UCL, the Bank of England, the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs, Lord Layard's book "Happiness", Robert Putnam's sociological study on the negative impact of diversity on quality of life, communitarian values etc, then come back and claim that immigration hasn't had a negative impact on the WWCs.
I am still waiting to see Lou's economic and social evidence that immigration hasn't had the negative impacts on wages, working conditions, housing, public services, quality of life, social cohesion etc that people have repeatedly been warning about.
Several polls show the majority of this country believe immigration has, on the whole, had a negative effect on this country. The vast majority want significant limits on immigration, and a sizeable number (admittedly a minority) want a FULL STOP to immigration. Democracy is supposed to be rule by the people, but if politicians simply pay lip service to the significant concern over immigration, what sort of a sham democracy do we have? And you have William Hague preaching China about democracy LOL.
HOW HAS MASS IMMIGRATION BENEFITTED THE WHITE WORKING CLASSES??
I am placing the onus on you to provide evidence for your support for mass immigration. If you dont answer my question myself and others will assume you cant answer my question!
Isn't it inspiring to see all these socialists only worrying about what immigration costs them? As for the "free market" Tories- it's hypocritical to allow the free movement of capital across borders, but not of the workforce.
As for England being more densely populated than India- Utter bollox! England doesn't have a single entry in the list of the world's 50 most densely populated cities, India has 18 (7 of which appear in the top 10).
@oh dear, it is not hypocritical to allow the free movement of capital while employing strict controls on immigration. This is a red herring. Countries throughout history have allowed capital flows without allowing mass immigration. Having said that, I'm not in favour of free capital flows, especially as it has led to our British industries being colonised and bought up by foreigners. Nevertheless, if capital controls are required, we can put them in without any problems. Immigration is not simply about investment, it has serious social and cultural effects that need to be considered.
And I'm not a socialist, because I actually CARE about my country, unlike the new Left who'd rather care about someone from Ethiopia whom they've never met before rather than the working man who's voted for the traitorous Labour party, expecting them to represent his interests.
Lol, don't bully and patronise me. with your one remaining functioning brain cell.
Taking up work natives do not wish to do
Skills, meeting skills shortages
Expansion of businesses
More employment for others
Take a look at Glover for the report about immigrants ddriving down wages, he found no evidence for this - said it was down to the employer not the immigrant....“the overwhelming majority of empirical studies agree that there is essentially no statistically significant effect of immigration on labour market outcomes”
Social, academic and cultural contributions
Will that do for now? I'm sure it won't but I'll pop by again over the weekend to read your breathtakingly grown up response to me.
For someone apparently living in a council house and working in a minimum wage job you have little
right to patronise others who question your wisdom!
All you have done is written down key words. How has mass immigration supplied more employment for the British white working classes? What are the workforce benefits? What are the economic benefits for the white working classes? What are the fiscal benefits for the white working classes?
Your response lacks substance and still does not go anywhere in identifying how the white working classes have benefitted from mass immigration.
Maybe your inability to give detailed responses explains your lack of success in life!
Dubious, since for every "hard working" immigrant paying taxes, are many unskilled immigrants forced to live off benefits, therefore the fiscal benefits are likely to be small, and insignificant (the House of Lords select committee said as much)
The economic benefits accrue to employers, who get to use cheap labour, to the immigrants themselves who can earn a higher wage in this country than back home, and to the middle classes who get to use cheaper builders, cleaners, etc.
Not really, because the majority of immigrants are non unionised, so the potential for trade unions to get any improvements in working conditions for the white working class is lowered. Immigration has significantly weakened unions, more so than Thatcher's policies. Moreover, work relations are worsened by use of immigrant labour. An obvious example is in the IT Industry, where resentment towards the use of Asian workers has led to clashes.
Taking up work natives do not wish to do
The natives don't want to do the work because the wage is so rubbish, and because they get a better deal living on benefits.
Skills, meeting skills shortages
No, immigrants don't meet skills shortages. The skills are here, we were the country of the industrial revolution for god's sake, we have some of the most talented scientists and engineers in the world. The reason they are not employed is because immigrants can do the same work (at a lower quality) at a lower price.
No evidence whatsoever of immigrants being "entrepreneurial", especially since most of the immigration to this country is from low wage, low skilled countries in south Asia, Africa and Eastern Europe, rather than high skilled countries like Australia, in which case the argument may have had some meaning.
Of course immigration will lead to an increase in GDP, but it's GDP PER CAPITA that counts. Mass immigration will naturally increase GDP, but it also increases population, therefore GDP per Capita either stays constant or DECREASES.
Expansion of businesses
Okay, so the business classes benefit from immigration. I though the so called "left" were anti-business?
More employment for others
In the industrial sectors where immigrants are present, the jobs are substitutes, rather than complements, so the argument that immigration leads to more employment for others is voodoo economics. Perhaps in the high wage, high tech sectors, this argument holds, but not in the sectors where immigrants steal jobs from domestic workers.
SR819, thanks for your plug of my comments. I'm afraid that I am a socialist, but I read comments form people like Caleb and groan. "People not from the UK are people too." This is childish nonsense. The nation state is a fact of life, and part of its definition is that there are members and non members. Proclaiming some sort of global community might make caleb all warm and fuzzy but does not make sense. And having border controls is not right wing (jeez, this argument is so ridiculous I really can't be bothered to attack it).
Suffice to say we all have a hierarcy of care, starting, usually with families, then friends and so on, in increasing circles. I was very upset by what happened in Norway last week; I would have been far more upset if a member of my family had been caught in the tragedy.
Lou just seems to be naive. Its not about "blaming immigrants" but there are real effects of mass immigrantion and the Left is in denial about what this means. I think the Poles are great, but I don't think a million of them comming here has had a great overall impact on our standard of living or on social cohesion.
I am even more concerned about how we can possibly benefit from illiterate Pakistanis coming from Mirpur to Bradford, where they cannot contribute economically, and have brought a value system utterly at odds with secular Britain. We, the host nation, have a right to say no.
I also wonder how parts of the left can defend the values and beliefs expressed by some (not all) Muslims from South Asia, especially their views on homosexuality, women's rights, freedom of speech etc. Surely, given the left claim to be in favour of gay and women's rights, civil liberties etc, that they would speak out against the backward beliefs of some Muslim immigrants from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc? Instead, you get Ken Livingstone pandering to these groups, despite their intolerant attitudes. The same with George Galloway (another self proclaimed lefty) defending the indefensible with regards to Islamic despots like Ahmedinijan.
The left needs to take a long hard look at itself it doesn't want to disappear into obscurity.
@Alistair Cole, you've just said it all haven't you - so a council house person cannot be successful in life now?
I might be in a council place but do not presume to know the success that has graced my life, I'm sure that it is equally as measurable and noteworthy as yours.
As for patronising,if you can't take it then don't dish it out - I've been abused, name called and sworn at for making one comment, which was removed by the author incidentally, and simply stated that low wages were not the fault of the immigrant but the employer for paying them.
Go and read through a wealth of material I have posted across these threads over time you'll find plenty of substance, it's just not the sort of substance the likes of you want to hear.
Natives don't want to do the jobs.
I seem to recall you being pretty against unionisation of anything in previous postings but because unions work well into your argument at this juncture, you change position.
Skills shortages - wake up and smell the coffee...where is your evidence that immigrants are filling a skills gap that isn't there?
Entrepreneurship - key founders in more than a quarter of engineering and technology companies since 95
Create more jobs - enough workforce to undertake work means less likely of jobs going abroad and businesses transferring overseas. Complimentary workers adding value to other workers jobs.
Play nicely boys! Have a nice night.
You are all missing the obvious point that decades of entitlement culture has made the British people into work shy whiners who think they are entitled to sit back and get paid and make the minimum of effort to do their job instead of working hard to get approval and advancement from their employer. If they get sacked they think they are entitled to get paid for doing nothing and also get free education for their children and free state-of-the-art medical care. It's not surprising that immigrants that are prepared to work hard and show initiative get the jobs and keep them. Things are about to change dramatically in this 'welfare' state, and a good thing too.
HOW HAS MASS IMMIGRATION BENEFITTED THE WHITE WORKING CLASSES?
(YOU DONT HAVE THE ANSWER DO YOU!)
ps :if you were successful we would not be subsidising your accommodation as taxpayers. LOSER.
Diane DID send her son to a private school. On an edition of the BBC's This Week Diane Abbott defended the redistribution of land owned by white farmers by the Mugabe regime. In this sense Diane Abbott is an apologist for Mugabe.
I am not therefore factually incorrect you are a condescending moron whose existence we subsidise as you live in council property with artificially low rent. The rest of the cost of your accommodation is made up by the taxpayer!
@historybuff, I can understand why indigenous people have decided to live off benefits. They think what's the point of looking for a job when most of the jobs are filled by foreigners anyway? Moreover, they can't look to the government, since the Labour party cares more about south Asians than it does about English, all because of the British Empire that no one currently living had any responsibility over.
I don't agree with people living off benefits, but given the way immigrants are getting all the jobs in this country, I'm not surprised. I don't support the conservatives, but Iain Duncan Smith may actually be rectifying the situation somewhat, especially his call for British jobs for British workers. Hopefully, he's not all talk like Gordon Brown, and actually looks to put the BRITISH people first.
As the son of an immigrant myself, let me try and add some non-racist, no-axe-to-grind perspective.
First off, many immigrants were attracted here to do those jobs most of the then indigenous population wouldn't do; on the buses, in the hospitals and post offices or like my father, helping to re-build bombed out London streets.
They worked hard often for poor wages compared to local standards,but an absolute fortune compared where they came from. In addition, they often had to live in poor housing assuming they could find accomodation where blacks & irish were able to apply. Employers including the public sector ones, kept wages low then and little has changed in the decades since 1945, for the west indians, asians & irish then read africans,eastern europeans and phillipinos now.
I can from first-hand experience having either managed or employed migrants that the majority are as hard working and thrifty as their local counterparts. There are wasters out there but they encompass both groups. Mass immigration may have been the solution to labour shortages in the past, but that dynamic changed long ago. It's all well & good the Labour leadership being contrite about failing to heed people's concerns while in office, but the debate now should be about growing the economy and providing the high quality, well paid jobs our economic future depends on.
Certainly there should be a debate on future levels of immigration at least while the economy is flatlining, but everyone of influence including the trade unions and employer bodies need to recognise that what was once can no longer be; and with apologies my vegetarian acquaintances, be prepared to slaughter a few sacred hides of beef along the way.
Millions now see Labour as the party of immigrations and religious fascist appeasement. How did that come about? Labour's lost the plot, and why are we pretending otherwise...
As for Zimbabwean detainees the white one can stay if any? After all many have family and cultural connections, as for the Black ones, well: Africa is an awfully big place, is that racist? no apologies thanks to Labour's open borders, we are going to encounters more racism not less.. Ps.. Diane Abbott is a black racist, and a apologist for Mugabe's racist government..
You must be worn out fending off attacks from all sides. I have to say that you are getting boring and you need to put your quill down for a while and rest.
I rather think that an awlful lot of the opposing comments to Lou are racist and if this really is Diane Abbott then its fantastic that at last an MP is willing to debate on a real level.
The fact remains that the comment I completely agree with is Tendryakov's in the Second World War this Country couldn't feed itself with a population of 48 million and food had to be rationed, we now have a population of over 60 million, do the math!
Yet more proof you simply cannot have a sensible, reasoned debate about immigration in this country. Yes it is talked about but only on the extremes between the BNP lot and those who throw "racist" at the earliest possible opportunity.
Tony the phony Blair and the labour stooges swamping the country with uneducated unskilled muslims for a life time on welfare benefits in exchange for votes has been a disaster and the sooner we get a Marine le Pen type arise to get these unwanted people back to countries of origin the better.
Let us have an EU referendum on whether muslims should be returned to countries of origin and see how these snakes of politicians like the overwhelming answer
I've answered you. I answered you on this post, other Glasman based posts and posts raising far right or immigration issues. If you cannot see the benefits to society, British society, which is more than just only white natives (you do seem obsessed with colour) then that's your problem.
Housing association tenants only get their rent paid by the taxpayer if they are on benefits or low incomes to merit it. Most benefit claimants werre taxpayers themselves once. (The biggest part of the benefit bill incidentally goes on pensions)
Any insults left? We've done council house, benefits, unsuccessful life and loser thus far preceded by allegations of a sheltered life, no concept of a working class life and minimum wage experience and self righteous.
As far as we remember it, Hitler and his cohorts found a ready scapegoat in the German Jewish citizen. Of course, at a later date, French, Dutch, Austrian and Polish citizens of Jewish origin suffered the same fate.
Was there a bid by German Jewish survivors, and other nationalities, to re-populate West Germany, Austria, France or other nations in Western Europe conquered by the Nazis. Not statistically. The anti-Semites had not really learned their lesson. Everybody knew the score.
Of course, nobody is denying that immigrant labour and developing nation industries plus investment were and are behind the phenomenal wealth creation experienced by the West.
Can you imagine the result of allowing Turkey, a deserving case if ever there was one, to enter the European Union.
Polish patriots and other Eastern European freedom fighters are more than eager to come to the United Kingdom and who can blame them? If they remain in their own countries, these same workers will wait a live time before attaining a similar lifestyle. Immigrants from the 'New' Commonwealth, now with British nationality, are equally disillusioned by the influx of East Europeans.
The USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were populated by European immigrants with scant regard to the effect on the original inhabitants.
It's demographics, stupid!
Our party must continue to strike fear in the heart of the white man, our real enemy!
Swantandra, normally i agree with you but Firstly the EDL aren't fascist for saying they're agians thte exreme islamiphactaion of the U.K ,rememeber Michael foot was called afascist by Nrman tebbit for teh closed shop, so we ought to get our own act together befre vcalling people fascsits, Secondly Lord Glasman never said talk to the EDl, he siad we should listen to the concerns of former laobur voters who agree with the EDL and there's nothing wrong with labour (fromer) voters agreeing with the EDL on opposing extrmeme muslim sharia law.
Diane Abbot firstly the dockers supporting Enoch's view that we were heading for communities going into their own ghetto's wasn't raicst, secondly it was a small percentage of dockers on a unuion that was ousted from the TUC as a result.
I have to say I don’t like Diane Abbot: I don’t like her politics, I don’t like the way that she presents herself as just a typical black woman when she is anything but! After all this socialist hypocrite sent her son to one of London’s leading independent schools, but don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with that indeed, I commend her for it, if a parent can't do the best for their own whats the point of being a parent, but she is a member of a party, was a leadership contender for that party, openly and actively hostile to the independent sector.
Good on you Lou - it's good to see someone stand up to the moronic trolls on this site.
The point is all the workers are being exploited be they British or migrants. We need safeguards for all workers. As many have pointed out cheap migrant labour is based on overcrowded shoddy accommodation. Do we think in 2011 it's acceptable to cram people into one room? It was in 1900 but I thought we'd moved on from those ideas. Clearly there are people above, including the 'reasonable' liberal voices of Labour, who still think that way.
We are becoming a less and less civilised society and reactionary right wingers tighten their stranglehold on politics and the public discourse.
The problem for Labour is fewer and fewer white working class men vote Labour. Why is that? One may say who cares, after all who wants racist working class votes!! that all well and good to take that attitude, the problem is we need them, but they don't need Labour, after all who can blame them: Labour spent 13 years undermining the white working class.
Thank you Mrs Nobody.
Who'd have thought one sentence could prove so imflammatory.
I think there is huge blame to be laid at Labour's door under Blair. I think they totally abandoned the ordinary man and woman, their voters, the people who got them elected. People no longer had a voice.
I think they made huge mistakes in preparations at community levels for the several 'mass influxes' from the EU we had and that created more distance twixt the party, the govt and the voter and immigrants became the whipping post for all of it. Wrongly. They are a whipping post for housing, low wages, jobs, benefits, health care and social, cultural or eductional problems. I must have missed the bit where Government and business became staffed entirely by immigrants who were soley responsible for the policies and practices inflicted on the masses.
If all the immigrants who apparently are creating these problems went back tomorrow, this country would not function and economically we'd be screwed. Then the hard done by-ers really would have something to moan about.
Unions have opposed racism in the past, After Broadwater farm the Cleaners union at Harringey council wnet on strike agianst Bernie Grants anti white raicst comments
Immigration has had an negative impact upon the low paid in the Uk .The cheap supply of Labour has been beneficial to the business class. Eastern European migrants are prepared to work over 80 hours per week .They have a fantastic work ethic and are well presented which makes them appealing for employment. However many are prepared to have 4 people in living in one room. the cash they make is not worth much leaving in the Uk ,but sent to Poland its worth a double to their family .The eastern european migrants have been an enormous benefit to the British economy! However low paid workers have lost out !wages have not risen in 10 years ! its cheap labour that is exploited and made the housing market reach unsustainable levels of value .Rented accommodation is limited .Its time to reduce immigration to benefit hard working people .The winners are those with wealth and power ! The INSTITUTE OF DIRECTORS LOVE IMMIGRATION BECAUSE THEY LOVE EXPLOITATION ! I Don't think britain should be brought down to the level of of eastern europe ; which can't provide work and opportunity for their own people in the 21ST century .
The reason that WWCs don't vote for Labour anymore in large numbers is because Labour don't represent them anymore. The obsession with vote-bank politics, and pandering to ethnic minority immigrants has resulted in their concerns being lifted ahead of the very serious issues facing white, working class people, namely housing, jobs, economic insecurity, the destruction and segregation of their tight knit communities etc. Of course Labour don't want to talk about these issues, because they'd have to admit that their immigration policy was a major reason why these problems have arisen.
I always read your posts with interest. I am glad you held your ground. No point in arguing with people who have closed their eyes and ears.
Why should the ones be on you to prove how mass immigration has benefited wider society when the ones asking will counter anything anyone says.
You are bang on about employers. Employers are to blame fir hiring. Not the immigrant who wants a job. Collectively we in the UK share the blame for the plight of the WWC, and why just the WWC, why not the black n brown working. A degree if a certain lack of education and social factors have led to where the working classes are now. Did the UK hand jobs on a silver platter to others, perhaps not always, but at times yes.
I think it is easy to blame immigrants. Easy to blame others for our own personal failings. I think it helps us sleep better at night or something.
Thanks for the kind words. A nicer comment to read before I sign off. Much appreciated and that goes for other commenter's too.
Thanks Stuart Eels. I agree re putting the quill down. However, I won't be silenced by abuse and I will stand up for a group of people who are being demonised for someone else's problems and I will not stand by whilst racist comments are made and untrue generalisations are made egardless of statistics and facts.
What you need to remember Stuart is all I actually commented, the very first comment, was that employers were at fault for low wages not immigrants and why was that not mentioned in the article at all. That comment was up for a short time until presumably the author David Green took it down (NS I would like to know why an author can take something down that isn't racist, offensive or anything else just because he disagrees with it?)
I then responded to what is now the first comment on this thread that was saying I was mentally deficient and a twat.
I don't turn away from the EDL member on my street promising to get rid of the new Somalian tenant they don't want, I don't turn away from the bunch of ten year old kids throwing abuse, spitting and terrorising the Serbian Muslim lady who sells the Big Issue outside of the local supermarket and I will stand there and argue with people who think it is okay to preach hatred, promote untruths and still think in this day and age it's okay to refer to someone as being as 'black as the golliwog off the marmalade jars'
You see it's not about the individual racist, BNP member, EDL supporter, the indiviudual Sun reader who knows no more than the headlines tell them - it's about the bigger problem of intolerance, racism and hatred that is bubbling below the surface of our society which I see every day of my life.
It might be boring and yes I have said as much as I intend to say now below this thread but I will never shut up or back down so I can't promise you won't see me saying similar things elsewhere.
Have a good day. Over & out!
I'll repeat a question I asked earlier to Pysfeesh, Mrs Nobody, Lou (btw, does working in a pub count as a skilled job in your definition?), Sam, Swatantra Nandanwar and other people who claim to be on the Left, and cannot understand that mass immigration is not progressive.
Give me the "left wing" argument about why large scale immigration, in a short space of time (say, the last 10 years) is a good thing. But please include in your answer a mention of the impact on social cohesion, over crowding, the environmental impact of building more and more housing, whether new arrivals with greater "need" should take priority over current citizens for housing and other services, and your own explanation of how much the existing population (and I include, of course, immigrants who arrived after the war) should have a say in who and how many come in?
This is not trolling. I personally am on the Left (and considered to be so by friends and colleagues).
Lou, I'll trump your Glover report with the recent House of Lords report on the economic benefits - or not - of immigration. I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the economic benefits of mass immigration, but I am also astonished that anyone on the left can only take very narrowly focused economic benefits into account and ignore social and environmental costs.
Feel free in your answers, self proclaimed lefties, to address the points about why certain "leftwingers" choose to sit on platforms with anti semites, misogynists, homophobes and anti democratic anti secularists. The same "leftwingers" who find it difficult to condemn "honour" killing, first cousin marriages and FGM. And yes, I do mean adherents to a certain interpretation of Islam.
You are not allowed in your answers to call posters on this blog "racist", "facist" or "Nazi", neither are you allowed to call them EDL or BNP supporters unless you are pretty sure it is true.
While thinking over your answers, try and rediscover your moral compassess, which seem to have gone haywire. Looking forward to your replies...
What is such a disgrace is that there are so many apologists here for the Racist EDL. The targetting of immigrants is very mainstream now.They will refuse to acknowledge what is manifestly obvious when they first open their mouths- that these are racist diatribes.
Once , there used to be the Anti-Nazi League and they were fantastic in confronting such politics of the sewer.
People here are not asking to be listened to- They want their racist views to prevail because they claim they represent the white working class. And they think that they have won.
Well, their victory will not be without resistance from all those who detest racism.
Read through. I mention the knock on effects of mass influxes in the wider community and address those points.
I've said what benefits I see from immigration.
Immigrants don't take priority in social housing, if they are given a house before A N Other it's because it was their turn. No one jumps the queue these days, most boroughs operate a system which is run independently regarding council and housing associated property, you go on the list, your needs are assessed and you wait your turn. All providers are legally required to advertise all available properties, no givng property out to just anyone regardless of waiting lists.
Why should you have a say on who and who cannot come in? What would be your criteria? Who would not be on the guest list?
Ar you aware that 9% of this country is non white immigrant, of all ages, just over 5% non white immigrants of all ages and the best part of 86% of the population is white british? How therefore is it statistically possible for the immigrant population to have decimated everything from jobs, to communities to housing, to overcrowding of our country no less?
just over 5% white non british immigrants that should read, sorry
You are an absolute hero.
I take it as a woman you would challenge Anjem Choudhury over his bigotted attitude to women and non -Muslims?
Generally these anti-racists only come out of the woodwork when the BNP and EDL raise their heads.
Lets also not forget that the EDL was formed as a direct reaction to Islamic extremism after a march of returning soldiers was disrupted by Islamists.
Islamic extremism is a real problem in Luton (where the EDL was formed). Having lived in Luton for four years I have first hand experience of this problem...having seen posters insulting western civilisation and met some Muslims with appalingly intolerant views....before September 2001!
I can assure you I would challenge Anjem Choudhury equally. No place for bigots and extremist thought and rhetoric at all anywhere no matter their creed, religion or colour.
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NS - Another comment taken down from last night. Comment clearly isn't free but the selectivity of the author or administrator is the be all and end all presumably.
I refer to the comment that was made in response to Luddite's question as to why he feared the far left and I said, around 21.45, presumably because far left political parties have been known to exhibit far right social policies like the Nazi party, a socialist party?
How does that comment warrant removal?
I would appreciate some explanation as to the criteria for removing of comments after they have actually appeared