No, I wasn't drunk. Sorry if it appeared that way. I was merely commenting on your views about what the working class needed to do to fit with your ideas about what is appropriate for them and what is not. And the content of an answer that blames 'them' for attacking when they do not agree with you, and believes that those nice working class people should stand in solidarity with you in a way you think is suitable.

Your comments were not taken out of context, they are there in writing- it would be odd to do so.

And yes- the damage that Blair and Thatcher did will take generations to fix- however, I wonder at how people expect it to be fixed if those affected are either an idealised version of the working class who you just feel need to stand with you, or are those nasty ignorant ones who are blaming and attacking their neighbours.

THanks for reading though-and the tag team replies.

The ideology people follow as to white working class men being conned we are not being conned you should look into what the EDL stand for it is against sharia law which if you look it up is a fucking disgusting and backward thing to follow also they are not saying islam is not welcome or every person that is not white is not right NO thats racist and the EDL are not racist they are saying there is a place for islam however it needs to be brought into the 21st century i.e homosexuality is allowed we accept its there right to be homosexual were as islam doesn't also woman shouldn't have to cover up they should be allowed a say in what goes on they should be able to learn and become succsefull were as islam treats women as second class citizens the EDL will continue to travel round the country and i for one am glad because if it wasn't for peoplpe like this the working class people who are the glue that keeps the country together you upper and middle class pricks would have to lift a finger and actually do something for a change !

Firstly I do feel that many of the white british working class do feel isolated and put down but this is because their life, cultural and religious needs are not met. Putting groups like the irish and poles in the same category is wrong. Firstly they have a different heritage and culture and secondly they have their own community and cultural organisations where they can get help and look after their interests, things which the english, scottish and welsh communities don't have. The edl and bnp are filling this gap, providing voices for the voiceless, where their policies are right is another matter, but actually the edl are more anti islam than anything else. Islam by the way is a religion not a race.

Secondly unemployment and poverty affects all races and religions. Singling out the poor white population is unhelpful. Black and asian populations have high unemployment and poverty too. Infact the highest rates are the mentally and physically disabled. Getting ahead is a very middle class thing. My mother worked full time at 14 with no qualifications and had to be trained. But she was given opportunities. Later she hated how work had developed and how people became selfish. You can work hard and not be selfish. She worked in the 50's though when training/apprenticeships from scratch was normal by employers and employers took responsibity for training with government help. The idea everyone has to be in top jobs is utter nonsense. Menial and manual jobs always need doing and people should not be looked down upon by doing them. It was the work done by all these white and non white working classes that made britain into what it was a leading economic power. But no one should look down on these white working class people for the work they and their ancestors did. Employers should be making themselves visible working with schools, colleges and universities, offering training etc not expecting people to be ready trained and qualified. All work places need common sense something you cannot learn in a book. Most people i know are not go getters but actual just want decent long term jobs, respect, loyalty and a chance to learn and contribute, with decent wages. Strong communities, with strong ties leads to stronger societies. Selfish, individual, money driven societies where people look after themselves, lead to broken societies. The working classes are in one camp and the middle class is in the other. There are very different ideas of work, money and life out there which are at odds with each other and why so many feel alientated. In history the middle class wasn't always so selfish many of the great business generators wanted to help the less fortunate e.g. Cadbury. He gained a motivated, loyal and respectful workforce and the business grew. But there was also great leisure facilities. What people fail to realise is that manufacturing wasn't just work it was a way of thinking, self contained communities with strong senses of identity, pride, helping out etc. Businesses can grow without such selfish attitudes. As a country we don't make anything, therefore we cannot get out of debt, not bringing enough money from abroad. Personally i rather be doing a lower paid simple job, working hard and be happy than be in a top job and be unhappy and stressed, not seeing my children with no work life balance. I do have anxiety disorder so maybe i think differently anyway. We cannot all do top jobs there simply will never be enough of them!

Cheers Lisa - I like chavs, there is something quite refreshing and healthy about them, especially that one that was on celebrity big brother the other year, winding every fecker up. She was intersting, but can't for the life of me remember her name, lady something maybe, or princess something.

Brilliant article Lisa.

This needed saying, and all the liberal-media-types - wallowing in political ideology, arguing over the latest Mail-driven moral scandal, advocating protest and action; are shit scared of the people they claim to represent.

The casual racism, the ignorant bigotry, the reality tv-loving, Jeremy-Kyle watching, terminally unemployed (and in many cases, unemployable) underclass. Or so they like to be portrayed. While we have uproar at Mexican jokes, Melanie Phillips mentalism and hand wringing by a party that fails to represent or help the situation - there is always a look-down-the-nose attitude the parts of the working class that need to be hidden and not acknowledged. I felt it at university.

As soon as I spoke, with the strong northern missing "h" and passion for football, bitter and gambling - I could see the fear in their eyes. I also loved chess, political history and classical music - but they never stayed around long enough to find out.

Moral and cultural superiority. They don't say it, but you know, deep down, that's how they feel. And while that exists, fears will continue to be played on, ignorance fuelled and bigotry accepted. But, at least, you've got the high horse to balance on.

Maybe we need to be invaded by aliens from another planet, then we can unite and be humanity. I'm fed up of apathy and crave empathy. Margaret Thatcher ruined the working class and destroyed socialism. It is the neoliberalism of this country that has given rise to multi-cultural divisions. We need to unite and fight the corporate sh*!te's that really control this country.

Well said,it seems like it is okay to discriminate against a single group in society, the white working class. Alienation with the political system and the lip service that politicians have paid to genuine concerns over issues like immigration has led to a serious resentment and anger building up in these white communities, and with the upcoming fiscal austerity measures, it is almost as if a valve has been opened, and all the feelings that had built up over the last 15 or so years will be released all at once. That is what you saw at Luton, and what you will see in other towns and Cities that are facing the double whammy of job losses and the transformation of their local communities by the imposition of immigration in large numbers. This is not racism, this is just an observation. There is nothing wrong with immigrants at all, but when governments decide to impose so many immigrants of a different culture into a single town with solidly white working class values, you run the risk of problems.

I'm diappointed that I wasn't appointed to Cameron's press office!

David Cameron is very brave to make a speech about radicalisation and multiculturalism on the international stage!!!

Very stateman like!...Made me very proud to be British and a Tory!!!

David Cameron is the greatest stateman in the world!

Cameron's speech was on the whole spot on, but the Tories' economic policies is just going to make things worse. Moreover, the Tories are notorious for sticking their noses up at the white working class, knowing that they're unlikely to win many votes. However, serious questions need to be asked of Labour, the party supposedly of the White working class for completely abandoning the core vote in favour of the immigrant population. I stress that I have nothing against Labour supporting immigrants, but they decided to fully support them against us, and that I thought was unfair. Whenever the white working class spoke out against this impartial treatment, we had some new Labour drone lambast us for being racists, even though we're anything but. When geniune white, Working Class people, proud of their roots and worried about they way their communities were being threatened by excessive immigration, made comments about how immigrants were being favoured in terms of receiving benefits, social housing, etc, we were told that we couldn't speak of these things. Well, now you've seen what happens when you brush issues under the carpet. They won't stay there for long, and will eventually come out, as they have now.
Rather than tar all the EDL with the same brush, it is time we understand what their supporters want. The EDL are composed of (on the whole) white, working class youths who have been betrayed by first the Labour government paying lip service to their worries, and now by this coalition that are cutting EMA and making it more expensive for these white youths to go to university. Moreover, with few job prospects and a lack of skills at their disposal, is it any wonder that they will fight back, and join groups like the EDL? Of course it's not.

Oh come on SR819, for starters stop all this WHITE working class nonsense. The working class isn't confined to only white British people, it's made up of many races and yes they are British born too. This is the reason people cry racism at you.

Secondly, immigrants are not favoured OVER you or any other white british person in terms of benefits and if they are, then you head straight to your solicitors and fight it legally as that would be discrimination wouldn't it? The same with housing, there are legal requirements on housing criteria and it's rubbish to say that immigrants are prioritised above the 'white' British. If an 'immigrant'(and how do you know they are immigrants and not British born people) got a house quicker, then their need was greater and speaking as someone who has been on a housing list for eight years in need of a medical move, I feel damn qualified to say so. I came second last week for a bungalow, the person who got it was a Muslim - do I feel that he was given preferential treatment - yes - was it because of his race - no, it was because he is terminally ill and his need is greater.

People parrot the propaganda in the Mail and the Sun but don't scratch beneath the surface for the truth, the facts or the reality. Yes there are some problems that need addressing around immigration and as you said, particularly in larger areas where provisions weren't made locally in terms of schools and housing for such an influx but do not make sweeping statements and generalisations. Your experience is not mine.

Labour supporting immigrants, but they decided to fully support them against us

And there was never a 'them against us' in any government policy I have ever seen, not by Labour-and not preferring 'them' to 'us'. In fact, in towns like Rochdale it has been the businesses that have resulted from immigration that have partly slowed the economic decline of towns. It's just that the 'them and us' mentality means that people can't see it. Do not mistake my views on how the people in towns around me feel- with agreement of something that is demonstrably illogical and false.

Although I think is important to understand how easily one issue feeds off the other.

Anyd= race is a complex thing to define. Race, Colour, Nationality (including citizenship), or Ethnic or National Origin are the bare bones of a definition- but culture, religion and a million other factors can be part of it.

And skin colour is visible enough that in casual conversation you find people dismissing british people as part of the 'problem' of immigration- not because of reasons any more complex than visibility and difference in skin colour.

THanks for reading though.

I didn't say skin colour was ALWAYS a visible presentation of race, and I can think of a zillion examples of where it isn't- but skin colour is visible and it is pounced upon.

You see a factory open in Rochdale and it is owned by someone with white skin(or even name that is seen as 'english'), it is seen as contributing to the town.

The same factory when the owner is visibly not white becomes an easily identifiable way of deciding that it's appearance is part of a problem, not a very real part of the economic solution.

Lisa ansell has caught the verbless sentence bug. Pain in the arse to read.

Right - let's have a wee go at replacing the words 'working class' with the words 'filthy rich' and then the word 'chavvy' with 'posh' in this sentence of Lisa Ansell's and see if the logical construction still holds up - "If you come from a community that could be described as 'working class', the behaviour you exhibit, your clothing and speech, or the name of your child, if at all 'chavvy' can be used to marginalise you."

Yup, thought so...

I'm afraid that the poor white working class have only themselves to blame they need to get the skills through education and training in order to compete for the more better jobs; its a tough old world out there and nobody owes them a living anymore.

I pride myself on being open-minded. By the wonders of the Internet you can easily read and hear what the EDL are saying without the scary experience of being in the same physical space as working-class males. Read and listen, be impressed by their broad racial composition and admire their determination to bring the political establishment to its senses by non-violent street protest, THEN make comments about them.

For goodness sake, the tag team reply was purely coincidental - not a conspiracy.

My final say on this matter, you still are picking an argument with me that I am not making in the first place. Please re read my comments because I must be blind to what you are seeing in them. Your points addressed to me don't relate to any comments I have made.

Perhaps you should challenge the commenters who really are arguing the case with you and making the points you say I have made.

I am my grandfather's grand-daughter and Rupert Murdoch would be the first Corporate mogul I would blame and I do it in memory of my grandad who was a printer and actually has a miners lamp because of the work he did in the miners strike (Billy Bragg has one too.)

Football was a working mans sports, it was cheap, people were able to identify with their community. It gave meaning and purpose to people's lives. My husband followed Chelsea all round the country, back in the day. Now he's lucky if he sees it on the t.v (I refuse to subscribe to sky.)

When Sky bought the rights to Premiere football, the game changed to the usual corporate bo#!ocks and now we see men in suites at games.

When I see the EDL they remind of those football fans who have been priced out of the game. Instead of a football collective they now have a national collective. And instead of battling against those who are truly responsible, they are praying on the weak and vulnerable.

I'd like to see them take on Murdoch, like my Grandad did when Fleet St moved to Wapping. Lets see who's big and tough then?

I would also like to say that as a child, on Mayday, we would dance around the Maypole, Morris dance and someone would dress up as a donkey and frighten all the kids. What the donkey symbolised I'm not sure.

When I see Bruce Parry visit indigenous people, he's sometimes greeted with a native dance. Whatever happened to Englands?

mcquade -- noted. Will try not to next time. If there is a next time!lol

I see that the Austrian human-rights activist Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff attended the Luton EDL demo and gave an excellent speech.
She is currently being tried in Austria for telling the truth about Islam - a la Geert Wilders. Any thoughts on her trial, Lisa?

So is "chav" now synonymous with the whole of the white working-class? Nothing to do with the section of idiots who attempt to terrorize working class communities? Such ignorance and an insult to white working-class people who have been demonized, ridiculed, or taken for granted for far too long. I guess you had to spend a few years in university to come up with that one.

Nobody demonises the white working class. In fact the white working class no longer exists in the UK. It has morphed into a single entity along with the traditional middle class. Broadly speaking most Britons of immigrant stock fall into that large group as well. Law abiding people who pay tax and have aspirations for themselves and their families.

You are describing a non-working class.It isn't only white either. Many Afro Carribeans display, all the characterisitics of this rapidly growing group as well. Single parenthood, lack of education, lack of respect for society, terminal reliance on benefits and a strong
towards criminality.

Both major parties are responsible. The Tories for pulling the economic rug under the feet of traditional working class communities and Labour for bribing them with benefits and an entitlement culture.

Basically the UK has developed a ghetto culture of the kind established in the US long ago.An entire class of people who are a burden on society from the cradle to the grave.

Forget terms like middle class working class and race. Apart from a very small elite class there are only two groups in this society. The larger group consists of the productive class and the smaller, but rapidly growing one, is the non-productive and burdensome class.

gullible - who is being gullible here? I think you have taken the spin in here. It is you that needs basic education here, it looks.

Rise the blinds in front of your eyes, and actually look at your country.

pic,
http://www.visit.carmarthenshire.gov.uk/index_images/hires-images/Llyn_y...

There is an old brythonic folk tale related to the lake in this picture, about using love too freely.