Well put Lou! IDS seemed, at one time, to have a reasonable line on welfare reform. But he's just been on a downward spiral ever since, the welfare reforms did not get off to a good start under Labour , but this lot have just started to turn the whole system on its head to the point where we will have the most impractical system ever. What is very clear to me is that MP's just do not have a clue about how the system works. They should not seek to change something until they have acquired a proper understanding of what it is they are meant to be fixing.

Before this lot cries 'workshy', they should turn their attention to job creation rather than job destruction. It's all very easy to say that people are shying away from work if it's out there, but it is isn't.

The Tories have completely misquoted the statistics on welfare. They are not to be trusted.

I'd have no problem spending a week clearing and gardening a pensioner's overgrown garden, with others of my age / education (1st-class degree, masters, 30 years of work - but I'm still heading for unemployment). But if I was with uneducated druggie/alcoholic youths disgruntled at having their benefit cut, being made to picking up litter in the street and wearing a big shaming "Workfare" waistcoat, then that would be nasty. People's talents need to be carefully matched to the job, and work-groups need to suitably matched. Expenses should also be paid. These are people surviving at the edge of poverty, when a few pounds - travel costs, plasters for blisters, added clothing wear, sandwiches - could be utterly ruinous to them. They need a _bonus_ (not a cut) of £10pw while doing this work, and to have expenses paid in advance.

Graham, As the article states, job seekers outnumber vacancies by five to one. Taking measures against the feckless may be a Good Thing for many reasons, but it's not going to solve the basic problem.

Osborne's policies will destroy about 1.1 to 1.3 million jobs (he hopes that others will be created to compensate, but his figures are wildly optimistic). It won't be the case in a couple of years that another million people have suddenly become workshy.

IDS needs to keep a straight face when explaining to the poor how he is taking even more away from them than before, that they be contented with Bacon's wise aphorism: the The Virtue of Adversity is Fortitude. Its the equivalent to: Let them eat Fois de Gras.

many thanks Lou, much appreciated. I'll have a look at that. My meeting with our MP went very well, the MP at least listened and has asked for more collective evidence which I'm happy to provide. I put forward five questions connected with the following - (1) DWP mortgage interest reduction from 6.08% to 3.67% forcing more possession actions (2) ESA and how it is not recognising where limitation exists and thus support is not being given to those who most need it in the work market - with no support being given to long term IB claimants who end up on JSA. ESA is meant to support people back into work but it is the subject of too much inaccuracy in the assessment process. (3) More support needed for lone parents seeking work and recognising the role of family members who provide childcare with no reward despite it being far cheaper than using registered childcare providers (4) Statutory measures needed to force creditors to freeze interest charges so that consumer debt can be repaid by borrowers as an alternative to bankruptcy or IVA's or years of never ending repayment plans (5) The re-creation of longer term tenancies to provide Landlord and Tenant with more long term security - given how we are much more likely to be looking at more people in rented property. Landlord's could still have rights in default and could choose between the option of assured short hold tenancies or a longer term tenancy. The advantages of this is that it would give the Tenant some peace of mind for however long the Tenancy is for and it would also allow Landlord's more potential to invest on a longer term security. The key thing in the private sector being stricter controls of rents. It's the Landlord who benefits from excessive HB payments rather than the tenant.

There's Lot's more, but need to do this bit by bit, there's a promise to put questions to Grayling over ESA.

So I'm doing my bit! If you or anyone has any other questions you would like me to filter through on Welfare or Consumer related debt, please feel free.

To go back on my earlier point, I do think there is a widespread misunderstanding of the system and how it works by MP's which is somewhat worrying when they are the ones who are at the forefront of change!

It's takes a lot to make me cry.. You can't do for others that others should do for themselves. The truth is, and i know folk's don't like this, there are people that should work but don't... and don't get me going on the minimum wage... 100 BILLION £ welfare bill.. I would just like a fraction of that paid to manufacturing..

Sorry, just being told it's a 190 BILLION.. fucking hell!!

Luddite, no one disputes that there are claimants who don't want to work and choose not to but come on, it's a minority not the majority. There are also people who've parked themselves on incapacity when actually they are well enough to work, but again it is a minority and not the majority.

I object to all welfare claimants being targeted with the same brush, treated like an underclass by politicians,the media and society at large and now being forced into community work and penalised for not doing forced community work when the criminals on community service aren't forced to take benefit or wage cuts for non compliance or appearance.

There's not a cat in hell's chance of a million plus jobs suddenly appearing or appearing anytime in the near future with the state of our economy. Perhaps if this Govt put as much effort into getting the economy going again as they did in targeting benefits, Job Seekers Allowance, or the need for it, would be obsolete.

I object also to the kind of work that claimants are expected to do. Why should they clear the vomit up on the streets from the fat cat bankers over indulgence the night before or the working population's abandoned bottle of beer, why should they sweep the takeaway wrappers and fag butts discarded by other non community minded people.

If they are to be forced into voluntary work, why make them do the local council jobs that this government is getting rid of in it's cuts - why not give them work experience in a factory, an office, a hospital or care home? Why should they only be fit to tidy overgrown gardens, remove graffiti and clear litter up?

It speaks volumes on what this Government thinks of welfare claimants,an underclass in society as I said before.

Mohawker: I take it that was sarcasm?

Lou. you are right.. i agree.. but idleness is more of a problem then we on the left will admit too... Plaese never forget it's the 'LABOUR' party..

"Those who won't play get lost in the system at present and they infect everyone else."

I am more worried about the deadly virus that is this dreadful Government.

Nick, you should get to bed earlier. And I don't like your attitude. You are spouting off in saying many people are "dependent", or not genuine. I doubt it. You seem to saying a lot of people winning appeals, a much higher percentage, are not "genuine" (whatever that means). This is coming quite close to anti client, given your work.

'dependent' could mean that they are trapped in the benefits system and can't get out of it. One reason is that they are better off financially; another reason being that they are afraid of work because they are long term unemployed, and another reason that they are deliberately workshy and fleecing the system.
Every lawyers and QC knows the problem that a proportion of their clients are guilty, but their job as advocates is to represent them and test the legal system and appeals to its limit. Theirs is not to judge.

Acamar: I sincerely apologise if my comments caused offence, I'm certainly not 'anti-client' in the way you imply at all. I'm grateful to Swatantra for shedding some light on the plight we find ourselves in with our clients at times. It is not my position to be judgemental. It matters not to me whether I believe or disbelieve what my client tells me, what I concern myself with is upholding their rights according to the law. In fairness my response was also specific to a question asked by Lox.

For the avoidance of doubt, you will see that I put the 'non genuine' at 10%, it would be naive to say there are not people who blatantly do abuse the system; my point being they are in a very low percentage minority.

By 'welfare dependant' I include those who are (as Swatantra correctly says) trapped in the system. Many of my clients say they would like to do some work providing it is within their range of limitations. My point is that this client group should be fully supported; you will also note how I advocate how this should only be done in conjunction with informed medical opinion from the client's own health care professionals.

Welfare dependency was encouraged by the Tories in the 1990's as a way of disguising high unemployment figures, some claimants have been allowed to remain out in the wilderness with no support of check on their well being and suitability for work for far too long (I equally blame Labour for leaving this untouched). This is the unavoidable truth. It's not wrong to say we should help such people; I'm definitely not saying they are not genuine.

In the course of my work, I've seen a fair number of incapacitated and disabled people make a good contribution by doing work, initially with support from various schemes and employers; some have gone on to do very well and have come back to me, telling me about the positive effects a phased return to work has had on them. I deplore the current tactics used by the coalition and have done much to help my clients fight injustice. I've fought endless battles in the First Tier and Upper Tribunals and regularly campaign on social policy for change.

Oh and as for late nights, agreed! I would just say that much midnight oil is spent by me drafting appeals on behalf of my clients. Posting on NS allows me to air my views and listen to the general views of others, it also provides a welcome break from endless hours writing up endless appeals! I also happen to get by on not many hours sleep.

I hope this clears up any ambiguity caused by my apparent tone?

Everyone keeps forgetting it was this lot with their banker friends that robbed us all,and I mean any party,liblabcon,crooks and liars

Disability Alliance have warned of benefit reform pushing more people into poverty.
http://www.thisjusthappened.com/warning-made-by-charity-about-benefits-r...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11703608

This is an ineresting read too.
http://www.disabilityalliance.org/darktimes.htm

ConDem your doomed,libs will never see a vote again.Traitors.V Cable,dickhead.Clegg,bitch.

Very misleading article considering he doesn't say that almost everyone can find work. He says he believes that almost everyone will work if they can, given the right encouragement. I'm sick and tired of journalists purposely misrepresenting what people say just so they can write an interesting article to get their paycheck.

Poor people will actually be much better off. They won't have any barriers to work because work will pay as they will be able to work on low pay and keep their benefits as well. This could have a dramatic effect in households where have had to stay on benefits to ensure their children have the basics in life. Children from these families will now be empowered to believe that they can get a better life for themselves by working.

If we add that to low income earners keeping more of their money as the income tax threshold is increased. These measures will improve the lot of low earners more than any Labour government has ever done.

The real problem is people with disabilities. They are going to suffer massively if the current plans go ahead. I've heard rumours that the Lib Dems are trying to sort this out and I sincerely hope they do as some disabled people could well lose their lives because of these measures.

The sad thing is Lou; all this grief and stress in this most haphazard of experiments will simply never work. This coalition has been in months now and has not delivered a single thing, it's done absolutely nothing positive, just put over message after message of negativity, the growth isn't there, the confidence is lost, people of all walks of life are living on their nerves. It's been spin after spin on misleading statistics and that bafoon Osborne alarming everyone into thinking that one of the richest Nation's in the world is on the verge of bankruptcy is fiscally irresponsible; it is absurd.

I want to know when Cameron is going to start delivering, he say so sometime before 2015 with more doctored figures when he realises his short term tenancy of number 10 is coming to an end. He just does not have the knowledge or prowess to steer us out of this. Every time he blames Labour (you know the 13 year 'yawn' line) I just think he's got nothing to say of what he's achieved.

When do we start to see some results Cameron? It wasn't that long ago he said we'll see a substantial reduction in the National debt in the first year, well he's only got a few more months yet, it would be nice to hear some positive news. Come on Cameron when are you going to deliver?

I genuinely think Cameron, Osborne and Clegg's legacy will be the big failed experiment. He will never deliver prosperity to anyone other than his own kind.

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Luddite,
The £190 Billion you refer to is the budget of the DWP. It includes, amongst other things, pensions and child benefit.

Are you suggesting that pensioners should go out to work in order to continue receiving their pension? Perhaps Children should go out to work to continue to get Child benefit? Pity theres not many Chmineys these days.

Sam: "Poor people will actually be much better off" Have you been on the wine?

How on this earth can you seriously suggest the poor will be better off under these reforms? How do you maintain they will still get their benefits with low pay? The benefit rules prohibit JSA if the claimant works more than 16 hours and WTC thresholds are being decreased, as are those for HB/CTB. All incentives and active support mechanisms are being steadily removed as this coalition believes people should stand on their own two feet, seemingly they even think this of those with artificial legs!

If this coalition wants to move people into work, can we see a little more about where these jobs are?

This lot has no compassion, they don't care, they are cruel, heartless and full of their own self importance.

The one sensible scheme was the permitted work scheme; this was accessible to those on IB and some ESA cases, but seeing as these are being diminished by the day, it seems even this is now close to being relegated to the big coalition dustbin.

Poor people will never be better off under this lot!

I have to agree Nick-and as for protecting the "vulnerable" and "genuinely disabled"-an ever decreasing amount of people -removing the Mobility component of DLA from people in residential care-the meanest act of all-I have no self-pity but the facts speak for themselves-given that my wife is non-weight-bearing,insulin-dependent diabetic,has renal osteodystrophy necessitating haemodialysis and partially sighted and deaf in one ear-I presume that is genuine enough even for the Tories?-our income due to the actions of the Government and local council will be reduced by 20%-this is on the presumption of maintaining the same entitlements-two of which are to be reassessed-the stupidity of it all in our case (and many others) if I returned to paid employment (which I refuse to do -go on IDS threaten as much as you want)-the replacement medical and social care which I perform would mean the State would paid vastly more than it would gain -the Government is making it increasingly harder financiallly for us to do this

Well, he is talking that brit traditional language of tory crap.

We are all in thie togeter except the rich and pur MPs
Work makes you free
And this comment by IDS is just terrible
Those who won't play get lost in the system at present and they infect everyone else."
What a word to use INFECT this gives me the feeling that the poor in our society are treated as GERMs