At my most cynical, I've sometimes wondered whether religious people (not just Catholics, this is not selective or discriminatory!) should be given sickness benefit due to their serious mental illness - the invisible imaginary friend who tells them what to do, what's right and wrong, what kind of person they can sleep with or marry... the amount of guilt that must build up, and the limitations it puts on their life choices, surely deserve some form of compensation (preferably paid for by treating churches and mosques as taxable rather than, bizarrely, as charities).

But actually, the religious seem to fare better on certain health outcomes (overall a more content and socially engaged life brings health benefits) so perhaps that's the compensation right there. I don't dislike the religious, even though I think they're entirely and dangerously wrong (compare this to neo-fascists, who I feel are wrong, but also dislike). I do however feel a paternalistic concern for their wellbeing, particularly since most of them were indoctrinated without choice as children. In terms of physical sickness, however, they do seem to reap the benefits and I wish them well for it.

I fear, however, that hoping for divine intervention to cure the sick or disabled, is a waste of time, and hence we must rely on human aid. The aid, unfortunately, that Mr Osborne seems strongly inclined to pull away...

broderick,

I appreciate your support of tom goodison but it doesn't matter whether you think people like him are being targeted or not. The fact is they are, people who are incapacitated, disabled and not fit for work are being passed as fit for work by a private assessment company with inadequate medical experience, knowledge and awareness of complex illnesses.
The scroungers may be weeded out eventually but what about the genuine claimants who are being tarnished with the same brush and weeded out in the process through an inadequate medical assessment not designed to assess illness - as you would expect - but designed in it's framework and remit to get people back to work on the basis of a form and a twenty minute face to face assessment by a non medically qualified person.
Tom isn't alone in his fear at what will happen to him.

i feel for you tom goodison,but the state are not targeting people like you and in fact the cuts being made in the long run will help out people like you and weed out all the blodgers and scroungers who have abused the system.dont worry tom we will look after good people like you.

re: Nicky... Osbourne needs to return to the drawing board ? No need, IDS be doing it for him !
As we have 'discussed' before, a single, variable rate benefit be the answer (you thought otherwise)... it be the answer they have plumped for... 1 - 0 to moi ? !

Mr Osborne seems to despise and hate the poor, the disabled. What is a person like this doing in government?

This man's compassion knows no bounds, why doesn't he go all the way and take away their walking sticks, perhaps even advocate euthanasia for those who don't pass his idea of contribution to society. He must lay in his bed at night dreaming of his wretched billions, may he wake up one morning to a rude awakening that he's lost all power in his lower limbs, that being infinitely possible given the way it's all gone to his head!

I've posted elsewhere and explained in detail why this man is nothing short of a lunatic when it comes to welfare reform.

Surely what should determine whether a person is incapaciated or disabled is the severity of their condition, rather than how much they cost on a budget spreadsheet?

If anyone is incapable, it's Osborne & Co, boot them out and march them down to the Jobcentre and see how much they like being spat upon.

I'm sure by cutting benefits for those too ill to work and then telling them that they're only allowed to have it for a limited time will really help them.
I'm one of those unfortunate people who made the 'lifestyle choice' to come down with a genetic disease that has ruined my life.
I was just talking about this with my partner and we were worrying for a minute but then we decided that if we end up with no money for food we can always take rent money and then when we're about to be evicted we can always refuse to leave and then become homeless and steal (well until my medication runs out and I start dying) then I'll go to hospital long term while my partner continues stealing for food and hr can go to prison and get a degree and eat their food and have lodging. There's no point in really worrying about this be ause as long as we're still alive that's the point isn't it?
We'll just wait until he's out again and I get released from hospital (realistically a couple weeks to a month) and then we'll do it all again until the government realises that I need someone to look after me, (my partner) and we need money to live. It's not a lifestyle choice!
If I were able to work, I most certainly would not be sitting at home on £89 a week if I was working. (we'd have a lot more and I'd enjoy earning my £40k job again. Unfortunately, it won't happen until a 'cure' for genetic illnesses is developed.
Is he trying to kill off the disabled and sick?

I think we only need to look at Labours new medical to know who is to blame for this mess, not forgetting new Labour won the battle with the Tories, the Tories said they get 500,000 back to work, brown stated proudly we would get a million , the Tories said 1.5 and Labour proudly said we would get 2 million back to work.

The fact is the battle to win the hearts of the Tory voters was won by new Labour and Blair and brown.

One look at the new medical put in place by Labour should be enough to tell people the difference between new Labour and the Tories, well we have no difference.

before brown had his mental breakdown and moved away to hide in Scotland the bloke told us he would stop DLA for the most sick, he then back tracked to say he was only talking about those over retirement age.

So i think even suggesting that Labour playing a game of blame here is an under statement

Treborc. Labour may have introduced ESA as part of the welfare reform act 07, but this lot are using it to persecute, Labour have never advocated cuts of this magnitude. the principles of ESA are not all wrong, it's the mechanics which are being utilised to crucify. You cannot simply blame it all on Labour, it's this lot who are the enforcer now!

It's all very well shifting blame back to Labour, how come this lot have done nothing to change it?

Absolutely, well said Lou!. This lot has made no attempt at all to look at how many are genuine claimants, leaving it to a privatised firm like ATOS is farcical. The last 13 years have become irrelevant; what matters is now. They should stop taking it out on genuinely disabled claimants. There is no way I will ever be grateful for the likes of Cameron and Clegg, they have to earn the respect of the voters before they can expect gratitude. No-one should be too quick to praise this lot, all we've heard of is their intent to act with destruction, what we need is to see is a little more construction.

I'm not usually a big fan of large scale industrial action but if this lot want to act like bullies of the State, they should expect a fight. Let them have it!

Thanks Nick. I was thinking earlier on hearing George Osborne's defence of the welfare cuts and his assertion at the start of his defence that this is the legacy of Labour. They've been in office for nineteen weeks, almost five months and yet everything is still all down to labour. Labour aren't the ones coming out with these policies so it's time George and co started taking a little responsibility for their actions instead of repeating over and over again,the playground mantra of all bullies - 'it wasn't me Miss, it was him'

The people who run the country are not representing the rest of us, how can we call ourselves a Democratic society when we are being run by Aristocrats who are completely empathatic to the people?

I believe that those who were changed from Incap to ESA where the payment on the latter would be less, had their rates at point of Incap lost frozen ( see disabilityalliance.org ) so therefore for the time being, the treasury saves nothing from them only new claimants going on to ESA

Not really one for physical punishment; but it's high time the big society State bullies got a good caning; one whacking wallop for every billion on Osborne's wretched mind?

I'm not sure about what people are saying around you Lou, but all I'm hearing is absolute hatred of this coalition and all it stands for?

Hi Lou,

Good to exchange views. God knows, the man is beyond all comprehension! I'll get back to you with some basic figures, they are a tad complicated! They are broken down and merged into different rates and areas. I can't see how Osborne can simply say 'Incapacity benefit' because he'd have to define whether it was contributory or just people that say claim Incapacity (not having paid enough contributions) to get their stamp, they would only receive Income Support. Plus a lot of claimants are now on ESA. There is also the question of how people get all kinds of premiums in with other benefits like HB/CTB and Income Support.

He talks about rapid deficit deduction as though this can be done overnight, yeh right! Just a few minor problems like changing laws, all the impact assessments and committees, then give it to the DWP and see how their age old computer system copes with issuing letters. It's a fiasco in waiting, even the DWP themselves just laugh at the man's ideas.

I firmly believe it will end up costing more in claimant error, not to mention appeals. We'll wait and see. I'd like to know where he gets his claimant count figures because the DWP have difficulty with that one, they seem to measure it in in monetary terms. I'd be curious to know where he gets it all from because the DWP's software doesn't track a lot of manual claims, just how much they're paid, so I'm told.

All I know is this lot has to go, they are becoming mighty dangerous in the way they just come up with figure after figure, the news these days may as well be called Gloom n Doom.

You are right Julia, ESA is less because most people are only getting the basic amount, they promised enhancements with 'support components' but only a very limited percentage get them. I also agree, it will lead to more crime. The difference being that this time I think people will be quite blase about it, they will just think if those at the top etc get away with it, why shouldn't everyone else? Plus there will be bugger all money to prosecute people, let alone put them through the Courts or punish them. It's probably where Cameron thinks his big volunteer gang will come from....a load of chained ex-cons on community service!

just look at the home page of the new statesman today,one anti catholic,anti pope hatefest.

This shower in charge should be holding thier heads in shame..where are the libdems the ones who wanted to be judged by the fairness of the cuts where are they? while this maniac puts the poor and most vunrable through the mincer?

If any this goes through in its current form the libdems should just merge and have done with it becuase they're be tories and nothing more.

funny thing is, alot of left wing trolls have really slammed me for being unemployed and lazy and all that garbage,then again i was om iain dales blog arguing with right wing tory trolls debating the welfare system and i got about as equal amount of abuse from them when i mentioned i was on the dole,thats why i have nothing but contempt for the left and the right but it is nice to know what both sides think of the likes of me.

@broderick,

There but for the grace of God go any of us. I hope life and leafy Surrey is kinder to you than you are to the less fortunate Broderick and that serious, incureable illness never darkens your door and destroys the life that you once had like it has Tom's and mine for that matter.

I know the party is over, but it's the party that was a working life, a social life and a life that was independent of state intervention not the kind of party you allude to. I didn't choose illness and incapacity, I didn't want to give up working, I didn't want to be too ill to work, I did not choose to be a claimant. I had no choice like many others do not have a choice.

Walk in someone else's shoes a while and then you might be a little more caring. a little less self absorbed and a lot more informed.

your day will come on day broderprick you selfish tory ponce,i am struggling to hold my temper with you mate and believe me i would love to rip your balls off.but listen to this brodders carefully.one day you might be trapped in your mangled car which is leaking petrol waiting for the fire service to come and cut you out,but do you know what brodders there will bo no @@@@@@@@ fire engine to come because bloody cameron has made cuts to the fire service,listen brodders your wife might be pregnant waiting for a ambalance to take her to hospital to deliver a new brodders and do you know what no ambalance will come because the your nearest hospital is 40 miles because your local hospital has been shut down due to spending cuts,do you understand mate what i am saying,your karma will come one day you disgusting excuse for a human being.

Couldn't have put it better myself Lou and Stuart! What an excuse for a human being it is that frequents a not too humane household in terribly nice Surrey. Why do they spend their time on here?

@ Nick,
I know one should ignore him but sometimes it's not so easy. By the way, what happened to Abdul?

Oh well back to the subject, do you think there is a battle really going on twixt Osborne and IDS over the cuts for welfare? Osborne seems to be making statements that should be coming from IDS as the secretary for state and today in Parliament Osborne answered tabled welfare cuts questions with no IDS present.

Lou. I know, they do kind of get under your skin, don't they? I suspect he's a plastic Tory; there being a fair share on here. They get very heated when they see their party going down as quickly as this lot are.

Yes, I wondered about the dreaded Abdul, may be he got taken away or something, I have thought he may still be lurking using a different pseudonym?

I do think Osborne and IDS are at logger heads. I listened to IDS on QT before the summer recess and thought his views were actually quite compassionate, even constructive. I was quite surprised. Ultimately, some people have a conscience and even with the trappings of power they won't abandon their principles, I suspect IDS is not approving of this ruinous path? Ultimately, sooner or later someone will defect, we'll be able to make up our own mind as to why.

i am just bringing a conservative intellectual perspective a debate that the left seems not to understand,thats why we are in goverment sorting out the finances and you lot finished as a politacal force,i wont respond to stuart and ehtch tee but nick judging by your comments you sound more like a fiscal conservative than a socalist.must go i have a dinner party to attend toodle peep.