The Faith Column

113 comments from readers

wisdombuddha
27 August 2008 at 13:08

The Dalai Lama says anyone who is against him is aligned with the Chinese. There is not one shred of evidence to support this claim:

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/08/are...

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com

Lucy James
27 August 2008 at 13:23

To reiterate, Dorje Shugden is the manfestation of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri who protects Buddhists from negative minds and helps us increase our love, compassion and wisdom.

As the Dorje Shugden Society in India put it: “Our Gelug or Ganden tradition, which came from Atisha and Je Tsongkhapa, was until the 20th century the most widespread and mainstream of Tibetan Buddhism. Nowadays, the practitioners who are openly faithful to their teachers and trying to keep the transmission and personal practice of these teachings pure are called the “followers of Dolgyal” by the Dalai Lama, and are known to the world as “Dorje Shugden practitioners”, as if we were a brand new sect. We are not. We are the ones continuing to practice as our spiritual forefathers did, and if we are treated as a separate group, at least it should be said that ours is the very ancient faith of the Buddha and that our practice has been handed to us through the centuries.”

Lucy James
27 August 2008 at 13:27

People have wondered, is the Dalai Lama allowed to wipe out a religious tradition?

The short answer is no. It is not his duty, as some have said, much less his right. Spiritually speaking, he is not the head of Buddhism, there is no such thing. Even within Tibetan Buddhism, he is not the head of any of the four schools. Politically and legally speaking, his actions contravene the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the Indian Constitution, and even his own nascent Tibetan constitution.

So why is the Dalai Lama doing it?

Perhaps he feels he can get away with it and so far he is right about that… he has already made significant inroads into wiping out this Buddhist tradition and the world hasn’t batted an eyelid. He has accomplished this through destroying the reputation of Shugden practitioners by calling them cultists, spirit worshippers, Chinese spies, even murderers -- although none of these claims is true.

“Dorje Shugden practitioners don’t care about Tibet” is another accusation we hear.

Tibetan Shugden practitioners are not anti-Tibet nor anti-Dalai Lama. They helped the Dalai Lama escape from Tibet and set up clinics, hospitals and monasteries during the years of exile. They love their country. It is ironic that in the lead up to the Olympics, the Dalai Lama used world sympathy for Tibet as a smokescreen to instigate his last push against Dorje Shugden practitioners, hence further alienating a significant portion of Tibetans who would otherwise have followed him. By virtue of his refusal to dialog, they have had to place themselves in opposition to him. So instead of using his perhaps final leverage over the Chinese, he has now had to defend himself at every public talk this year against accusations of human rights abuses from his own people. “A house divided cannot stand”.

How does he deflect blame for the challenges and failures of the Tibetan Government in Exile? What better scapegoat than some unseen “evil spirit”. That’s right – this is the reason he gives for the ban.

Apparently, Dorje Shugden is a “Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong in the Tibetan government”

It is hard to know whether the Dalai Lama actually believes that Dorje Shugden is a Chinese demon, or whether he is simply using this as a scapegoat to distract belligerent Tibetans from the painful concessions he has made to the Chinese (or both). What is certain is his heavy reliance on the state oracle to come to this decision. The Tibetan oracle system dates back to a pre-Buddhist time. The Dalai Lama makes his political decisions based on statements of his state oracle in a trance and divination with dough balls (see for example CNN’s recent report). At the beginning of the 1990s, the state oracle blamed Dorje Shugden as:

“A Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong in the Tibetan government, most harmful for the freedom of Tibet, and, heaviest of all, harmful for the life of His Holiness.”

Sure enough, in March 1996, the Dalai Lama banned the worship of Dorje Shugden, declaring that it posed “danger to his life and the cause of Tibet.” This has been highly effective in motivating patriotic followers to persecute practitioners. In the mid-nineties, when monks demonstrated in India against this ban, these followers hurled rocks at them and 60 had to be hospitalized. This was eerily echoed on July 18 2008 in New York City, when 3000 Tibetans rioted against the Western Shugden Society protestors -- only there we had the protection of the NYPD.

It is hard to sell this reason to Westerners (i.e. the reason we haven’t got Tibet back is because you are praying to the wrong Buddha, and if you keep doing it I will have a shorter life), so for them the media-savvy Dalai Lama uses different reasons.

Lucy James
27 August 2008 at 13:36

Samdhong Rinpoche's quote on France 24 is ludicrous.

What is it like to be revered as a God King since the age of five? The Dalai Lama has enjoyed unelected rule over the Tibetans in exile for 68 years , gaining more and more control over every aspect of their religious and poltical lives. It is fine for him to give up his Buddhist practice of relying upon the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden, but it is very wrong for him to force others to stop.

If this issue of Dorje Shugden has revealed anything to me, it is that if you question even one decision of the Dalai Lama you are immediately accused of cataclysmic subversion of all that is good and holy in this world. In other words, you must be on the pay roll of the Chinese. But as there is absolutely no evidence for this tired accusation, I won’t explore it further here. And if this controversy is playing into Chinese hands, surely the Dalai Lama has only himself to blame for creating it. He is creating the divided house.

Tenzin
27 August 2008 at 14:01

Buddhism is non-theistic -- there is no almighty creator commonly referred to as God, Allah etc. According to Mahayana (including Tantric) Buddhism there are countless enlightened beings because everyone has the potential to perfect their good qualities and awaken from the sleep of ignorance.

There are also many Protector Buddhas or Deities appearing since the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, all of whom appear in relatively wrathful forms to reveal their enlightened abilities to destroy the main enemies of living beings, which are the negative minds (we all these "delusions") of anger, attachment and ignorance.

All these wrathful Protector Buddhas have unusual life stories, as do all Tantric Deities. e.g. Tara was born from the tears of Avalokiteshvara and so on.

What is important to me in my prayers Dorje Shugden is not so much the tales told of his origin but his nature and function. I see him as the same nature and mental continuum as the peaceful aspect of Wisdom Buddha Manjushri, Je Tsongkhapa, who appeared in the fourteenth century to revive Buddhism and whose teachings became the Gelugpa tradition, the largest of the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism. Dorje Shugden's function is to remove obstacles from our mind and gather favorable conditions for our spiritual practice to flourish -- as someone said, he is a bit like the Buddhist equivalent of St. George or some other feisty Saint. That may be to simplify it, but without undestanding Mahayana Tantric Buddhism, I think this subject needs simplifying!

However it was that Dorje Shugden and other Deities originally arose, they all share the same omniscient wisdom and universal compassion and in different ways can help living beings overcome their suffering and attain enlightenment.

Tenzin
27 August 2008 at 14:07

I would also like to add to Mr Gotter's article to say that nowadays our Dorje Shugden statues are not always hidden in the West but you can see them in the meditation rooms. The practice is open to anyone who wants to join in, as are all the other meditation classes, study programs, pujas (prayers), and so on.

I think this might be because Western culture is different to Tibetan culture and we don't always appreciate a good mysterious spiritual practice in quite the same way -- we like things to be somewhat more transparent and accountable. Just a thought.

donaldosan
27 August 2008 at 14:48

Seeing how the Shugden followers acted in the USA over the last couple of months during teachings by HHDL i.e. with aggression and truly ugly and extremely unBuddhist behaviour surely more like a cult in fact ,that is really all we need to know about them ,I suggest they don't need meditation but most certainly do need lots of medication. (Lucy you are one of the sad and pathetic people and actually there was no riot and no 3000 Tibetans.).....Have they not heard about Karma?? certainly not Boddhicitta...!!!!

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 15:05

I remember what happened in New York this past July, where supporters of the Dalai Lama were screaming and spitting on Shugden practitioners... so much for proper behavior.

Here's one of the articles about that little spectacle:

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Dalai-Lama-supporter...

And when it comes to false and fradulant stories coming from the supporters of the Dalai Lama, let's not forget that they gleefully like creating that as well.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 15:11

donaldosan -

"no riot and no 3000 Tibetans".

i was there - were you? if so, you're a liar. if not, you don't know what you're talking about. i was spat on, hit by thrown coins and a bottle, told i would be shot, told i would have my throat cut, flipped off, cursed and cursed at. the NYPD used riot police and mounted police to keep the angry mob back, which filled all the sidewalks on the Radio City intersection in downtown Manhattan so deep that i couldn't see the back of the crowd. 3000 is a highly conservative estimate (500 was the grossly inaccurate number misreported in the Times by a reporter who wasn't even there). there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we would have been attacked far worse had the NYPD not been present.

now - what exactly did the protestors do that amounts to "aggression and truly ugly and extremely unBuddhist behaviour"? they chanted slogans loudly, asking the Dalai Lama to stop lying. they did so peacefully, without any aggression and without contravening any law or directive received from the police. it was described by a human-rights lawyer who witnessed it as: "a model of peaceful protest".

maia
27 August 2008 at 15:13

I am not en enlightened master, i am a woman from devon, it would be arrogant of me to say i know more about the ins and outs of a very complicated society than a person who has dedicated his 14 lifetimes to having the conciousness to keep coming back for the benefit of all sentient beings.

It is a very telling thing that Shugden supporters are virtually all western.

The search for power is a strong drive for some, and to hook up with a deity whose practice offers power is going to seem very appealing to the western mind, driven as it seems to be by speed and getting results from actions as it is.

If you ever have the opportunity to see the Oracle in trance you will see for your own eyes that these spirits are very real, and not just a little idea to hook an energy onto.

It was explained to me, that the man that Dorjee Shugden was, died a very violent and horrid death and on that basis as a very advanced practitioner resolved to destroy the Dalai Lama and government. It is with that intention that this energy is around as violent as it is today.

Shugden supporters killed three monks in Mcleod Ganj in 1997, and were traced back through Delhi it Nepal then Tibet to the Chinese, funny that.

There are frequent Shugden supporters in Mcleod seeking help because when they try to stop his practise,there are many side effects such as nightmares palpatations and other disturbing illness's.

The Dalai Lama rightly says, you can practise what you want, free will is all, but that he also has a moral responsibility to warn people not to do things that harm them.

TL
27 August 2008 at 15:16

Donaldosan,

I am sorry that you view demonstrations as ugly and un-Buddhhist. In my mind demonstrations are about freedom of speech and I've always been taught and strongly believe that Buddhists are not doormats.

I have never attended a protest until this year and have only done so because I have no other choice.

I did not attend the protests in the US, however, I have seen footage which reveals how supporters of the Dalai Lama treated WSS protestors - the Dalai Lama supportes spat on, threw bottles and swore at WSS protestors who were simply voicing their right in an orderly protest. A loud protest I can imagine but an orderly one.

Your comments to Lucy are offensive and unnecessary. Clearly Lucy has a heartfelt connection with Dorje Shugden and is explaining with clarity her perspective.

Thank you, I don't need medication, I've never been happier.

With love.

TL

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 15:18

and i didn't see any money from the Chinese, tho' a lot of it was waved in my face by angry Tibetans whose "Lama" had lied to them and told themn that we were sponsored by the PRC.

in fact, i believe gthat it was this single accusation that was the main reason for the mob's violent behaviour. any critic of the DL is a Chinese agent - and there's nothing more likely to incite blind hatred in devout and nationalistic Tibetans. i don't blame them for it, however - they've been lied to, and it's not their fault.

if we are sponsored by the PRC, where's my cut, please?

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 15:27

Dougal: If you know of any articles or news reports that are not getting proper coverage, please send copies or links to Mahabodhi IP (www.mahabodhi.net) --- we'll post them.

billsteve
27 August 2008 at 15:31

back by China or not, will that affect the truth. Just like Dalai lama previously was backed by the country against China, can we also conclude that Dalai's activity is just part of Western-anti-China activity instead of other reason?

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 15:35

oh, mala...

there has never been any credible evidence whatsoever shown likning those horrible murders in 97 to Shugden practitioners. the link was created as a smear by the TGIE (cynically cashing in on this terrible event for their own purpose); as a result, several prominent Shugden critics of the DL were questioned at length by Dharanmsala police, before being released without charge. the case remains open. educate yourself before spouting the TGIE's rhetoric for them - please. you can read a chronology of these events here: http://www.shugdensociety.info/historyEvents1997EN.html

then - what you say about Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's violent death betray a complete lack of understanding of basic Buddhist principles. how could "a very advanced practitioner resolve(d) to destroy the Dalai Lama and government"? no Buddhist practitioner wants to destroy people, let alone an advanced one.

Dorje Shugden is relied upon by practitioners as a Dharma Protector - a wise and compassionate Buddha. they DO NOT pray for power, money or any other worldly aim - they pray to increase their love, compassion and wisdom.

i am afraid that your misunderstanding of this entire issue, and of the Dalai Lama's nature and intentions, is representative of the majority in this world. so many people are deceived by him. its ths illusion, this glamourr, that is the tool that he's using to do such evil, and - so far - to get away with it so totally.

mala - lady from Devon - and all you ladies and gentlemen from all of your places: the emperor has no clothes.

please - investigate. educate yourselves. find out. http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 15:40

If I remember correctly, they originally pointed the finger at the Chinese government itself, but later settled on the Shugden practitioners as a scapegoat. To date, no one has explained how anyone crept in the the middle of the night, committed such a horrible crime, and no one heard a peep as it was occuring. How many yards from the DL's residence did this occur? The problem isn't Shugden, it's the "oracle".

TL
27 August 2008 at 15:44

Meindert, you commented that the "The Dalai Lama says he has investigated this matter to his utmost capacity. "

A very interesting comment. How has he investigated this matter - in meditation as per his comments on France 24 or with an Oracle, a medium, Nechung?

Hmmm I really don't think that they are valid reasons for attempting to wipe out a Buddhist tradition.

But back to the heart of the issue. If the Dalai Lama chooses not to practise, ok, if he enforces a ban for others not to practise, not ok. If he demonizes western practitioners who practise, not ok.

With love,

TL

Lyara
27 August 2008 at 15:49

Heigh ho, i wondered how long it'd be before someone brought up the false accusations of murder.... again!! I suppose it does indicate that in 12 years no one has had the imagination to find anything else to frame Dorje Shugden practitioners with. This libellous, irresponsible and tawdry accusation is brought up everywhere and we try and refute it everywhere because there is no evidence. None whatsoever.

So, here we go again....

The one piece of evidence the Indian Police originally linked to the Dorje Shugden devotees, a letter in the room of the victim, was found upon translation to contain no threat whatsoever and was immediately dropped. To assume that someone is responsible for murder without any evidence is quite an assumption! Aren't people innocent until proven guilty by dint of evidence? There simply is no evidence, which is why the Indian police dropped the case years ago. See the posting on this subject on this blog for details:

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/06/def...

If the Dalai Lama were the deity of compassion, why would he be causing suffering to so many Dorje Shugden practitioners and eviscerating the tradition of his own teachers? One thing is certain, due to people’s blind faith in the Dalai Lama, when he insinuates that there is a connection between the murders and Dorje Shugden practitioners -- despite a complete lack of proof and the fact that the victim had many fierce enemies in Tibetan society -- people jump to believe it and this terrible allegation has been repeated ad infinitum.

Since the Dorje Shugden devotees have not engaged in any violent activity despite being persecuted and ostracized, and since they are committed to trying to change the Dalai Lama’s mind through peaceful non-violent methods, it is particularly cynical to keep repeating that they are actual murderers just in order to discredit them.

From a talk by Helmut Gassner, a Buddhist monk and the translator for the Dalai Lama for seventeen years:

The Director of the Dialectics School was well known for his slanderous writings in which he would drag through the mud anything that veered even slightly from the course established by the government-in-exile: famous masters, the big monastic universities and even the Tibetan guerillas were his targets. In one of his last articles he wrote, "...these people will not cease to criticize the Dalai Lama until blood flows from their bodies...."

Given the character of the assassination and the humiliations the Tibetan guerilla movement had been subjected to in earlier years, one could have assumed that the search for the murderer would eventually also lead to them. But that obviously did not occur; already the next day, Dharamsala's local newspaper claimed that the murderer would certainly be found among the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi. Aside from who committed the murders, this gruesome act was exploited to the hilt by the government-in-exile with only one aim in mind: Resorting to all possible means they tried to incriminate the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi in order to put its leading monks behind Indian bars.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 15:52

Dharmakara -

thank you.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 16:10

Dougal: If any of the Shugden groups need free webhosting or other support, just contact me through our website and I'll take care of it.

Lyara
27 August 2008 at 16:21

Dear lady from Devon,

just to answer your points not already answered by others (and thanks for giving us the opportunity):

"... a very complicated society than a person who has dedicated his 14 lifetimes to having the conciousness to keep coming back for the benefit of all sentient beings."

Hmmm. The problem is not with the Dalai Lama taking rebirth after rebirth. The problem is that he is using his political power to ban a religious practice -- the power build-up is too great and there is no recourse whatsoever for anyone to disagree with him. Surely you have to admit there is something wrong with that? This wonderful YouTube video brings what Dorje Shugden practitioners are facing into sharp relief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sjsY3UgFto

"It is a very telling thing that Shugden supporters are virtually all western."

But they are not. A minority of Shugden practitioners are Western. Most Shugden practitioners live in India, Mongolia, China, Nepal and of course Tibet itself.

"If you ever have the opportunity to see the Oracle in trance you will see for your own eyes that these spirits are very real,"

I have seen oracles in trance, it is an impressive sight. Maybe this is why the Dalai Lama relies upon the Nechung oracle for his political decisions.

"and not just a little idea to hook an energy onto."

I do not rely upon Dorje Shugden through the medium of an oracle at all. Generally, as a daily practice, he has never been relied upon in that way -- the oracle of Dorje Shugden used to be summoned only to ask big questions like how to help the Dalai Lama escape from Tibet.

To my mind, the time for oracles has passed as they are too open to abuse and corruption (as with the Nechung state oracle's wildly differing and harmful political pronouncements on the subject of the Buddha Dorje Shugden).

I certainly don't need a medium to rely upon Dorje Shugden any more than I need one to rely upon Buddha Shakyamuni. I have been relying upon Dorje Shugden for many years and to me he is infinitely more than "a little idea to hook an energy onto", but thanks anyway for your attempts to educate me on my Protector.

"There are frequent Shugden supporters in Mcleod seeking help because when they try to stop his practise,there are many side effects such as nightmares palpatations and other disturbing illness's."

As someone commented yesterday to someone else, you might want to read the Crucible by Arthur Miller. These supersitious ideas are wrong and dangerous. The only nightmares and palpitations needing help are the ones created by the Dalai Lama's very real ban of Dorje Shugden and the persecution and ostracism it has engendered.

I know you and many others mean well, but it is hard to face up to the fact that the Dalai Lama might actually be wrong. However, the truth of his actions is coming out and there will be fewer and fewer straws to grasp at in terms of justifying his terrible behaviour on this issue. All he needs to do is lift the ban and give religious freedom and we could all breathe a huge sigh of relief.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 16:24

Dharmakara -

i'll pass this on to those i know. i'm just an individual practitioner, who has protested with the WSS - but i think your kind offer's likely to be seen here by all the other groups also.

thank you for your support.

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 16:35

I thank Lucy James for the lucidity of her writing. I would like to illustrate her analysis in relation with the political motivations for the ban on the Buddha Dorje Shugden. She says:

–“It is hard to know whether the Dalai Lama actually believes that Dorje Shugden is a Chinese demon, or whether he is simply using this as a scapegoat to distract belligerent Tibetans from the painful concessions he has made to the Chinese (or both)”–

POLITICAL MOTIVATIONS BEHIND THE BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN

Since he went into exile in 1959, the Dalai Lama tried to convince the world to help him gain back Tibet's independence.

He won the minds and dreams of the rich and famous and was able to put in the streets, during his FREE TIBET campaign, hosts of American young people that in those years of the "yuppie" culture were lacking a cause, some means of transcendence. Someone said that Tibet had been for those youngsters what the fight against the Vietnam war had been for a previous generation.

The Dalai Lama became thus the champion of Tibetan independence. For most people, that's what he is, still today.

Less publicized were his repeated attempts to reach an agreement with the Chinese.

Practically nobody noticed that, without consulting the Tibetans, all on his own, he had handed Tibet to China. During the 1988 session of the European Parliament, in Strasbourg, France, in the course of a press conference, for the first time he told the Chinese that Tibet could be part of China and retain only autonomy instead of independence.

Pretty soon though the Nobel Peace Prize awarded to the Dalai Lama in 1989 prompted such enthousiasm that his utterances in Strasbourg got lost for the larger Tibetan audiences. The Nobel award gave to Tibetans an immoderate and renewed hope for independence and incapacitated whatever serious opposition could have arisen for several years. The official oracles of the Dalai Lama confirmed those hopes.

But opposition to the Dalai Lama was brewing, unknown to most. The elder brother of the Dalai Lama, Thupten Norbu, a resident of Indiana, USA –who had been the liaison official between the CIA and the Tibetan guerrillas of the sixties– had never approved of the Dalai Lama's reversal about independence.

When the initial fervour for the Nobel Prize started fading and the passing years didn't bring any good news, the grumblings from the elder brother's quarters started acquiring shape and meaning. In 1995 Thupten Norbu publicly broke away from his brother the Dalai Lama in this matter (as stated by Thupten Norbu's son to Indiana journalist Mike Leonard). He co-founded the Tibet Independence Movement and started a series of "Independence Walks". This was an open opposition to his brother the Dalai Lama.

There is no doubt that this opposition, although of small scope at the beginning, would have won wider and wider Tibetan audiences and would have made Tibetans understand the new reality very quickly, instead of allowing it to silently become a "fait accompli" ... This would have been a very big headache for the Dalai Lama in those years.

So even though it does not appear in any document --how would it?-- a simple inference imposes itself. This "breaking away from the Dalai Lama" by his brother in the matter of independence vs. autonomy in 1995 was obviously the trigger of the Dorje Shugden ban in the early months of 1996.

Why?

Because otherwise the Dalai Lama was going to be forced to face his fellow Tibetans and tell them: "Yes, I spoke of democracy, but in this most important of matters I didn't ask your opinion, I just decided myself that Tibet was not going to be independent. I myself alone decided that the hope for independence had to be abandoned. I myself alone decided that we had to satisfy ourselves merely with autonomy. I myself alone decided that Tibet is part of China."

Now, knowing the tremendous emotional ties of Tibetans with the Motherland, it was impossible for the Dalai Lama to talk to them directly in any way about this matter. He had to come up with something.

And it was then and there that his worldly oracles gave him very good political advice: "The worshipping of Dorje Shugden is hurting the Tibetan cause. The worshipping of Dorje Shugden is threatening the health of the Dalai Lama".

The sayings of the oracles have to be translated to political language: "Go ahead and find yourself a scapegoat. Start a campaign against the Protector Deity Dorje Shugden. Stir the innermost fears and frustrations of your people to your advantage. Do anything to distract their minds from the truth --that you, their Dalai Lama, gave up Tibet's independence. Take the heat out of your own person. Find a culprit to blame."

And so he did.

The issue of the Protector was an inner matter of the Gelugpas. It was a matter of dispute between the Dalai Lama and his then fellow Lamas and monks since at least 1975. It took him twenty one years to bring it all of a sudden to the lay Tibetans, to the general public. The ban against the Protector only came –out of the blue– in 1996.

But it was not out of the blue.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 16:44

If anyone wants a good introduction to the early political ambitions of the Dalai Lama and Thupten Norbu, you should check out some of the declassified releases from the US State Department:

http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343...

Douglas Chalmers
27 August 2008 at 16:56

"...a powerful protector..... the Dalai Lama himself must have heard from his teachers who initiated him in the practice..... His criticism of his own teachers comes conveniently at a time when they have all passed away..."

How clever of the Dalai to keep his own Shugden initiation to himself - and to try to keep the supposed powers to himself, also, uhh.

From there, through fear the Tibetan so-called Buddhists can control people with impunity in a society which still holds onto an ancient deity-worship and karma-punishment mentality and a false belief in a heirachical state as a solution to its problems and as a way to deny progress in the material world. Yet another FAKE religion, uhh!

The Great Tantra Challenge - India http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kol01I-Ll2s

"Sanal Edamaruku..... challenged India's most "powerful" tantrik (black magician) to demonstrate his powers on him. That was the beginning of an unprecedented experiment. After all his chanting of mantra (magic words) and ceremonies of tantra failed, the tantrik decided to kill Sanal Edamaruku with the "ultimate destruction ceremony" on live TV. Sanal Edamaruku agreed and sat in the altar of the black magic ritual........

By doing so, Sanal Edamaruku has broken the spell, and has taken away much of the fear of those who witnessed his triumph. In this night, one of the most dangerous and wide spread superstitions in India suffered a severe blow.....

Tantriks are creating such a scaring atmosphere that even people, who know that black magic has no base, can just break down out of fear, commented a scientist during the program. It needs enormous courage and confidence to challenge them by actually putting one’s life at risk, he said....." http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/2008/2008031...

I'm not so sure that "mantra and tantra have no power" but this supposed tantrik priest certainly couldn't manifest anything but meaningless words and ineffectual actions......

dee cani
27 August 2008 at 18:03

Dear all,

This is the teaching of the Buddha: avoid non-virtue; accummulate virtue; subdue your own mind.

On both sides, there is a need to turn our minds towards embodying virtue personally.

Orthodox Jews practice with other Orthodox Jews. Latin-loving Catholics seek out pastors who conduct Mass in Latin. Find those who believe as you do,

and practice your beliefs.

No one can prevent your internal spiritual practice, not even if you are jailed. Each of us can choose our own paths, and walk them with dignity and care. I suggest that the focus be on that. Talking to myself as well, I wish you all complete freedom from suffering, complete happiness, amd say farewell to this forum.

dee cani

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 19:17

I am sorry that dee cani is not going to read this answer. I understand that she cannot face the evidence presented here in this forum.

What she says: --"Orthodox Jews practice with other Orthodox Jews. Latin-loving Catholics seek out pastors who conduct Mass in Latin. Find those who believe as you do, and practice your beliefs. "-- is exactly what the Gelugpa Lamas tried to do many years ago, and see what happened to them: the Dalai Lama started slandering their Protector to end their moral and religious authority inside their own religious comunity.

Decades later he decided to bring this inner Gelugpa topic to the whole of the Tibetan people, making it a matter of government --this time to find a substitute, a scapegoat to take the blame for Tibet being handed back to China.

Since then on he never stopped in his attempt to erase the faithful Gelugpas from the Tibetan community. Those who think that people should go on doing their own practice among themselves do not have any idea of what is going on. We wish!

We wish so much to be left at peace with our practice, our precious teachings. If we appeal to the honest people of this world as witnesses is because we need help. The Dalai Lama has been relentlessin his persecution.

The monks living in New York for instance, who saw their own pictures nailed to the walls of a Tibetan restaurant in Jackson Heights, Queens, New York, with hatred captions accusing them of being Chinese spies, where are they going to go to seek help? They were among the ones who fled India in the first wave of the persecution, in the late nineties, in order to escape the Dalai Lama's wrath, the Tibetan Associations' wrath. Now, persecuted even in the United States, they don't have any other place left where to run, where to hide.

So, Dalai Lama´s folks, we really understand your plight. It's really hard to face what the Dalai Lama, who has been promoted as the ultimate man of peace, has been doing in his backyard for all these years. But facts are there, and the ones suffering are his victims.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 19:53

To become a light in the dark of night, ever mindful that there can be no practice of the Dharma without the practice of virtue; to become a companion to all who are on a journey, ever mindful that there is no human aim higher than to understand the truth; and to become a protector of those without protection, ever mindfulful that the tears of all sentient beings are the tears of all Bodhisattvas past, present, and future.

The Dalai Lama's behavior is contrary to the Bodhisattva Path and I have yet to see a political agenda in which someone doesn't get injured.

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 20:36

It would appear that most westerners overlook the vast gap that exist between themselves and the Mountain Folk of Tibet. For the most part we are in the 21st century and the Tibetans are more akin to the the 15th century of the Taliban.

How can we expect to find common ground with those who do not have modern conveniences, let alone modern thought.

Tibetans have reled exclusively on the clergy to take care of businnes with the 1,000 dieties in the pathenon of Mahayanna Buddhism.

We write and post from our homes and they mix rocks and eggs to ward off unpleasant expectations and blasphemous statements.

The Dalia plays host to his choir or captive population , he locked into their

slave and serf mentality as was exhibited in New York by his followers.

I have no reason myself to believe this Lama has anything of importance to say., As he only lies and Richard Gere and Bob Thurman continue to advise him how to control the media and the populace.

The Wheel Of Dharma is turning to the West as predicted by the Buddha would turn to the land of the Red Men.

The Tibetans are in a no win situation and would be well advised to return to their homeland. Before the Indian Government begins to push them back into their territory. Dalia has become a liability for

the future of India with China. Sooner or later the cost to sustain the Cold War relic will become to costly to maintain any longer, or he will die.

In any event, this lamas trouble making days are coming to an end and sooner than one would think at this moment.

I believe to take the best of this culture and leave the rest of it for the Chinese to absorb into their culture is the coming reality.

Maybe Dorje Shugden will intergrate into China society and maybe he wil not. Who knows?

Dorje Shugden is intergrating into Western Culture and millions will benefit from the Spreading of the Dharma.

The Dalia lying will be his undoing.

Rosie
27 August 2008 at 23:55

There are so many half-truths it is difficult to know where to begin.

I would ask just one question, of Lucy James: you say Dorje Shugden is a Wisdom Buddha. The Dalai Lama says he is not. The Dalai Lama has substantiated his claim, and provided information on his website regarding the history of what he refers to as a spirit practice. Specifically, he has offered autobiographical and personal testimony of the 5th Dalai Lama, who was contemporaneous with Dorje Shugden. You can see this history here:

http://www.dalailama.com/page.133.htm

Would you be so kind as to provide references that would refute this compelling evidence for the birth of the evil spirit "born due to distorted prayers".

To me this sounds like the a story that can't have a happy ending, due to its "bad beginning".

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 00:42

Rosie: the 5th DL is not exactly a vessel of wisdom or compassion. In 1660 he was faced with the rebellion from within the Kagyu sect and dealt with it by calling for the obliteration of the "rebels", including their children... "like eggs smashed against rocks"

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 00:53

Rosie: You might be interested in the history of Bhutan as it relates to the 5th DL's repeated attempts to invade it:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Shabdrung_Ngawang_Namgyal

Geronimo
28 August 2008 at 01:18

Oh it had a Very Happy Begining! You need to review the lineages of these Masters and the Rainbow Stories before man decided to control everything and the rest is Tibetan History. It was just this old sour puss that was unskilled and untrained that tipped the cart due to his anger. jeaulously and greed or " The Three Poisons" afflicted his inability to pray with virtue if anything. Read Toyo Bunko and "The Great 5th history. It is written by Japanese Scholars and is referred to frequently by Ursula Bernis as a source of significance and accuracy. There is also the "Sacred Art Of Tibet"/Tibet House/1991/NY/ page 102 is a painting of three lams painted randomly on a monks robe. Bob Thurman describes this unusual tangka circa.1640-1650 as the soon to be assasinated Dragpa Gyaltsen. The soon to be Panchen Lama and the soon to be Dalia lama. All before the Mongolian Cavalry came into Tibet and slaughtered the new Dalia's opposition. Tibet became a country and the seat of power was built in Lhasa as the Potala became it's Juanta Over Lord for the Mongol_Chinese Empire. That's how I came to understand the truth of his rise to power, The Toyo Bunko and a painting provided by the Tibet House Founder and my Main Friend, H. H. Domo Geshe Rinpoche.

We are dealing with a 350 year old Murder case and the Dalia Lama is the main suspect.

We are conducting a Great Healing on the Dalia Lama. So rest assured we have only his best intentions in our heart and mind. This was told to me by H. H. Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche directly as our mission and purpose. He was poisoned a few year ago as was one of the Dorje Shugden Oracles.

I asked him in 1996 if he intended to hurt the Dalia Lama.

He told me , Thom, "I love the Dalia Lama and would never hurt him" . He showed me a photo of himself and the Dalia holding hands only a month before in New Delhi.

He reiterated many times that the Dalia was sick and we were doing a great healing on him.

I just need to remind myself what's happening to keep myself clear as possible. I forget.

Rosie
28 August 2008 at 03:06

Thank you for your responses.

Dharmakara, are you suggesting that because the 5th DL wasn't a 'nice guy' that his account is untrue?

Geronimo, I have a little trouble following your argument. I appreciate the reference to Bernis, I took a quick look and see that she didn't try to give a detailed history of Dorje Shugden, as the history is disputed. I'll check out the Japanese account.

My main point is that there is a fairly large discrepancy between the 'historical' picture painted in the article above and other accounts. I'm a bit surprised that the New Statesman published a piece written by someone with such a strong investment in the issues and a clearly biased view. This is not best journalistic practice, to put it mildly.

In the West we are strong believers in the separation of church and state, but that is not the way that Tibetan politics and religion have been structured. The history is rough, brutal, perhaps even shocking. But so are stories of Western imperialism. The villifaction of HHDL on the basis that he holds both political and religious power seems bogus (and terribly ethnocentric) to me.

Friendoftruth
28 August 2008 at 03:08

To Rosie and all.

DORJE SHUGDEN

Dorje Shugden is a Protector of the Dharma or Dharmapala. There are innumerable Dharmapalas protecting the Buddhist faith, and this, since the times of the Buddha.

All four schools of Tibetan Buddhism have hundreds of these deities. Their terrifying aspect is directed against inner and outer enemies of the practitioner and we Buddhists are used to their beneficial nature, knowing that they enact a necessary aspect of the Buddha’s compassion.

In a certain way they can be compared to some saints of the Catholic Church, like Saint George, Saint Michael, and other warrior-like holy beings.

In the XIV century c.e. Dorje Shugden appeared as a close disciple of the King of the Dharma Je Tsongkhapa called Dülzin Drakpa Gyaltsen.

In three different life times --starting with that one-- Nechung, Protector of Tibet, appeared to him in the form of a child and requested him to become the special Protector of the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa, which he accepted.

This holy being was born as Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen at the time when the Fifth Dalai Lama initiated the reign of the Dalai Lamas over the Tibetan state. Both men were disciples of the glorious First Panchen Lama.

Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen became a famous and venerated spiritual Master --something that inflamed the jealousy of some characters in the entourage of the Fifth Dalai Lama.

These people, acting on their own initiative, assasinated the holy Master Drakpa Gyaltsen, who arose immediately as a powerful Dharmapala, an emanation of the Wisdom Buddha Mañjushri, as he had promised himself in the past.

THE FIRST EVER

DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONER?

The Fifth Dalai Lama was terrified when this being first manifested his presence, due to his immense power, and for a brief time thought it was some malignant spirit.

The present Dalai Lama and his followers keep on going back to that early moment of the Fifth Dalai Lama's relation to the Protector.

They forget to talk though about came next.

When the Fifth Dalai Lama realized who that awesome being was, he immediately composed inspired prayers to him, thus becoming probably the first ever Dorje Shugden practitioner.

Until the end of his life the Fifth Dalai Lama venerated Dorje Shugden. He built for him a temple that still exists today in Lhasa: Trode Khangsar.

He entrusted two different monasteries with his devotion, giving them the prayers that he himself composed. These monasteries have been practicing for almost four centuries, and still keep today the statues that the Fifth Dalai Lama himself sculpted of the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden.

We, the faithful Gelugpas that didn't forsake the holy Dharmapala, still recite the prayers composed by the Fifth Dalai Lama.

Thus started the actions of Dorje Shugden, and thus we practitioners started receiving his help and doing prayers to him, following today the example of the one that the Tibetans call the great Fifth Dalai Lama.

Lucy James
28 August 2008 at 03:33

dear Rosie,

Thank you for asking me your question.

I'll start with the 14th Dalai Lama's own words. As you may or may not know, for the first half of his life the Dalai Lama relied upon Dorje Shugden, indeed taking a life commitment to do so. During this time, he wrote the following praise to Dorje Shugden.

Melody of the Unceasing Vajra

A Request-Prayer to Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden,

Protector of the Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa's Teachings

By the Supreme Victor, the Great 14th Dalai Lama

HUM

Glory of the wisdom, compassion and power of infinite Buddhas,

Miraculously powerful protector of Manjusri Tsongkhapa's Teachings,

Arisen as a lord of all wrathful worldly hosts,

Come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara, and so forth!

Prostrating with devotion of body, speech, and mind,

I confess all mistakes and faults in which,

Out of delusion, I have contradicted your holy mind:

Accept with forbearance and show your smiling face!

Arising from the sport of non-dual bliss and emptiness,

Are offerings and torma of flesh and blood heaped like a mountain,

First portions of milk, yogurt, beer and tea swirling like the ocean,

Auspicious signs and substances and various animals,

Peaceful and wrathful ornaments, inner-enemy-destroying weapons and armour,

Amassed samaya substances, outer, inner, and secret, without exception!

Having fulfilled your heart commitment and purified degeneration,

By making these actually arranged and visualized offerings,

Increase Lozang the Victorious One's Teachings,

And the life span and activities of the Teachings' upholders!

Further the happiness of beings in the Gaden [Podrang] dominion!

Especially pacify all harm to us, the yogis and entourages,

That arises because of previous karma and immediate conditions,

And spontaneously accomplish, just as we wish,

All good things, both spiritual and temporal!

Grind to dust without remainder

The hordes of delusions that cause perverse perceptions and actions

Towards the teachings and lay and ordained people

With potent, accurate, powerful great vajra fire!

Especially, cause the saffron-clad community of Dungkar Monastery,

Brightly beautiful in bonds of pure morality,

To soar the path of immortal liberation

On unified wings of Sutra and Tantra!

In brief, we enthrone you, O Deity, as the supreme

Collected nature of all Gurus and Protective Deities!

From densely gathered clouds of the four activities

Pour down a cool rain of the two siddhis!

This, a Request-Prayer to Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, Protector of the Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa's Teachings entitled Melody of the Unceasing Vajra's composition was urged, not only by the vajra prophecy of the great emanated Dharmapala himself, but also on behalf of the general community by the master of the Dungkar Dratsang and all of its officers, with offerings. Accordingly, the one called Holder Of The White Lotus, Bearer of the Buddhadharma, Ngawang Losang Tenzin Gyatso Sisum Wangyur Tsungpa Mepay De composed it at Dungkar Monastery with spontaneous auspiciousness.

Lucy James
28 August 2008 at 03:44

Rosie,

The following is what I believe as a Dorje Shugden practitioner who has relied upon this beautiful Buddha Protector for 27 years, with wonderful results (the old joke -- you should have seen me when I started!) To me, it is not terribly relevant what the Dalai Lama believes as it is at odds with my own and millions of others' experiences (past and present).

I also do not believe that there could ever be any valid grounds to ban a spiritual tradition, however hard you want to argue -- this runs directly against the constitution of India, for example, which prohibits Deity discrimination (and is of course anathema to freedom of religion in the West).

Anyway, you asked, so here is what I believe (and I take it from my own Spiritual Guide's teaching in Heart Jewel) .You can find the rest of this explanation here: http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden-about2....

The highly realized Master Tagpo Kelsang Khädrub Rinpoche composed the following two verses concerning Dorje Shugden:

With deep faith I prostrate to you, Vajradhara Dorje Shugden.

Although you have already attained the Buddha ground

And engage in the twenty-seven deeds of a Buddha, You appear in various forms to help the Buddhadharma and sentient beings.

You have manifested in different aspects

As Indian and Tibetan Masters,

Such as Manjushri, Mahasiddha Biwawa, Sakya Pandita, Butön Rinchen Drub, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsän, Panchen Sönam Dragpa, and many others.

The meaning of the first verse is quite clear. The twenty-seven deeds of a Buddha are explained in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras and in the eighth chapter of Maitreya's Ornament for Clear Realizations. These twenty-seven deeds range from showing sentient beings the way to enter the spiritual path to liberation up to guiding them to the final attainment of Buddhahood. Since Dorje Shugden performs all these twenty-seven deeds it is clear that he is a Buddha.

To guide living beings along the spiritual path, Dorje Shugden manifests many different aspects. Sometimes he appears in a peaceful aspect, sometimes in a wrathful aspect, sometimes as an ordained person, sometimes as a lay person, sometimes as a Bodhisattva, sometimes as a Hinayanist, sometimes as a non-Buddhist, and sometimes even as a non-human. Since there are so many different emanations of the Buddhas it is difficult to tell who is an emanation and who is not. The only person we can be certain about is ourself; we know whether we are a sentient being or a Buddha, but we do not know about others.

Each Buddha has the ability to manifest as many emanations as there are living beings. This ability is necessary because if Buddhas remained in only one form, without any emanations, they would not be able to help all living beings according to their different needs. Thus, if we refuse to believe that a Buddha can have many different emanations, we are indirectly holding the wrong view of denying that Buddhas can help all living beings. In the Meeting of Father and Son Sutra Buddha Shakyamuni says:

Buddhas manifest in many different aspects such as Brahma, Indra, and sometimes even as a mara or in the aspect of an evil person, but worldly people do not recognize these emanations.

Buddhas can emanate even as inanimate objects.

As Tagpo Kelsang Khädrub Rinpoche said, Dorje Shugden has manifested in many different forms to help living beings. There now follows a brief account of each of the past incarnations of Dorje Shugden mentioned in the verse quoted above.

So, to see this account of his previous incarnations, please do look at the link I sent you above or read the book Heart Jewel. I think this answers your question, if you were genuinely seeking an answer. I hope so anyway. Thank you.

Tenzin
28 August 2008 at 03:57

Hey Rosie, you say you're "a bit surprised that the New Statesman published a piece written by someone with such a strong investment in the issues ..." But this is a blog, not a journalist's account. At the top of the page, it says "Every week a different believer gives the inside track on their religion or philosophy."

You say "In the West we are strong believers in the separation of church and state, but that is not the way that Tibetan politics and religion have been structured."

Yes, I agree!!

"The history is rough, brutal, perhaps even shocking. But so are stories of Western imperialism."

Two wrongs do not make a right, do they? Wouldn't it actually be great if the rough, brutal and shocking behaviour toward Dorje Shugden practitioners could stop?

"The villifaction of HHDL on the basis that he holds both political and religious power seems bogus (and terribly ethnocentric) to me."

There is nothing etnocentric about it! I think if the Pope was also elected to be President (to take just one example), or if the Archbishop was also the Prime Minister, plenty of people would be making a very big fuss about it! If the Dalai Lama abuses his political and religious power, there is nothing bogus whatsoever about calling him up on it. Where does it say that the Dalai Lama is above the law?

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 04:15

Dear Rosie,

No, I was suggesting that his position was tainted by many factors, influenced by the politics of the time. If history has taught us anything, is that humankind has the tendency to view its own particular culture, society and tradition through a tinted glass, one which is more likely to distort than give us a clear picture --- no culture or society has ever been immune to this.

In such light, it might be best to examine the history from outside of both positions --- in other words, look for an academic sources and history books which addresses the events of the region and era, where particular traditions have had little or no influence.

This would also be in keeping with the Kalama Sutta, looking outside of our tradition and/or perceptions of it --- "Vibhajja vada" (one who analyses) is another name for a Buddhist.

Within the Tibetan tradition there is a dependency on approved literature and translations specific to the tradition, nothing outside of it --- I have always looked at this position as a hinderance or an obstacle to preserving Buddhist heritage because no tradition should withstand historical fact.

Douglas Chalmers
28 August 2008 at 06:18

#Lucy James, 27 August: “Dorje Shugden practitioners don’t care about Tibet” is another accusation we hear... Apparently, Dorje Shugden is a “Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong in the Tibetan government..."

Its more like the DL's Buddhists don't care about Buddhism because they continuously support independence, separatism and the violent overthrow of the government in Tibet SAR. The incident in March with the vicious rock-throwing young so-called Buddhists monks incited the riots in Lhasa soon after.

Further, both the DL and many Tibetans support violence as "permissible" as long as it suits them. They only issue for them is that they know they can't get away with it with the Chinese. Two interesting statements on this video series, "The CIA in Tibet", that 'pretend' Buddhists should watch:-

*Tibetan man: "My father would tell us the Communist Chinese were enemies of Buddhism so, since they were enemies of Buddhism, we never felt that it was a sin to kill them..... in fact, we were happy to kill as many as we could. When we kill an animal, we say a prayer - but when we killed a Chinese, no prayer came to our lips....."

*HH Dalai Lama (at 4min 50+): "Although it is basically a Buddhist belief, if moderation is good and the goal is good, then method, err..... even of an apparently violent kind, is permissible..... could be possible. But, then, in our situation, in our case, whether it is practical or not, that is the big question....."

So there you have it, "do what thou wilt" or "do as you like" is OK by Tibetan separatists whenever it is "practical". In other words, they have learnt NOTHING from Buddhism and they have NOT really even ever put their feet upon Buddha's 'path to Enlightenment'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOhDBo6x2ZY

But then, the DL manages to have a bet both ways with another statement which can be split and re-interpreted to suit peoples' whims - and latterly, he also erroneously links separatism with Buddhism as a kind of pre-condition that, if you want to study Buddhism with us, you have to advocate separatism also. These are actually the demands and imperatives of a radical cult:-

*Ewa Kedzierska (interviewing): "Methods to obtain whatever from China can be violent or non-violent. As a Buddhist, you are, Your Holiness, sincerely committed to Non-violence. However, the definition of this word should be clarified. Can You explain, Your Holiness, what, from the Buddhist point of view, violence is? Is a legitimate self-defence a violence? Does non reaction to a permanent violence not legitimate violence somehow? In what cases, following the Buddha’s teachings, violence is admitted?"

*H.H. the Dalai Lama: - "Theoretically speaking Yes, violence or non-violence are methods. The motivation and the result are more important than the methods. So theoretically speaking, under certain circumstances violence could be possible or permissible. But then in practical level violence is always dangerous and negative. For me I feel it is absolutely essential not to go with violence. If things become desperate, majority of the people want violence, I will withdraw, resign..."

*Ewa: "They are waiting to be free, to fight."

*His Holiness the Dalai Lama: - "Yes! But I don’t think this is a right solution. But after all, the Tibetan issue is the Tibetan people’s issue, not my issue, automatically if they really want to follow violence – they will do...!"

*Ewa: "Your Holiness, what would you say to the Western "Buddhists" for whom the Tibetan political issue is completely distant from the religion, which they have so enthusiastically adopted?"

*H.H. the Dalai Lama: "Oh, that is wrong! Tibetan freedom is very much linked with the Tibetan Buddhism. Without Tibetan freedom, the Tibetan Buddhism cannot survive..." http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?article=INTERVIEW+WITH+HIS+HOLINESS+THE+DALAI+LAMA&id=16202&c=5&t=1

Thus we must look to the actions of Buddhist monks in Burma/Myanmar, not Tibet, for a real appreciation of Ahimsa and non-violence, these days. They have also demonstrated bravery and self-sacrifice in caring for their people whilst the Tibetans have merely demonstrated selfishness and arrogance and self-righteousness in disrupting affairs within Tibet and endlessly exhorting Westerners to attack or to criticize China despite the improvements Han Chinese have brought to Tibet .

But, as far as "...a Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong...", lets also remember that Tibetans appoint Tulku(s) like the Dalai Lama amongst themselves, not the Han Chinese. They have more recently appointed Tulku amongst Westerners and apparently also with the Mongolians in the past when they once ruled. This, then, is yet another political ploy to cultivate popularity and favor to their own advantage but to deliberately wall off their Han relatives as suits their own pet prejudices and hatreds and aversions.

forgotten
28 August 2008 at 06:29

Is anyone a real Tibetan in this discussion and is Geronimo a real Indian.

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 06:49

Forgotten: What is a Tibetan? What is an Indian?What is real? What is self?

Find a tree and sit.

taghioff.info
28 August 2008 at 10:12

I cannot help thinking that this whole discussion is about over-attachment to the forms of various traditions, and actually has sweet FA to do with Dharma.

I was brought up in a buddhist household, and worked out fairly early on the that the core of Buddhist philosophy is a very deep seated version of agnosticism, of non attachment to the particularities of form, as a vehicle towards insight into how events are driven by complex inter-relationships.

I concluded that in order to be true to what I had learnt about buddhism, I had to firstly avoid labelling myself as a buddhist.

So, OK, the politics in the Shugden thing is interesting, if only because it shows a total loss of perspective. Thoughts only have as much power as we give them.

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 10:27

Exactly! What's Buddhism? What's Buddhist? (LOL)

whiteroha
28 August 2008 at 12:53

I realise that this is an obscure issue and people are easily confused, but can we please ask ourselves a few simple questions?

1. Has the Dalai Lama imprisoned or ordered violence against Shugden followers for practising their freedom of worship?

2. Has the Dalai Lama even condoned any kind of secular punishment or reprisals against Shugden followers?

The answer to both questions is clearly no. All the Dalai Lama has said is that he, as the leader of the religious establishment of the Gelugpa order of Tibetan Buddhism, has a responsibility and right to make rules for it. These rules prohibit Shugden worship. Shugden followers are free to worship, but not within the context of Gelugpa tradition.

The position of Dorje Shugden followers within Gelugpa Buddhism should be seen as nearly exactly analogous to the position of Masons within Catholicism. Catholics who become Masons are automatically excommunicated. The Pope is believed to be a strong supporter of this policy. There is no suggestion that this is a human rights issue. It is a disagreement in which the Pope, and Catholics, are on one side, and a small minority of Catholics who would like the freedom to belong to both organisations are on the other.

In summary, Lucy James and other people who make unjustified attacks on the Dalai Lama should not be taken seriously.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 13:34

whiteroha -

i was just about to start - again - writing a long-winded refutation of yet *another* completely incorrect and uniformed comment, but then i just couldn't bring myself to do it.

i'm sorry, but i cannot believe your ignorance is genuine and your motivation is good.

if it is, then i sincerely apologise for questioning you, and i beg you - please - go educate yourself. read up - with an open mind - on the overwhelming, vast and growing body of evidence proving the Dalai Lama's harmful actions and their effects on the worldwide Buddhist community. we are NOT making anything up. the irrefutable evidence is out there for all with eyes to see.

on the other hand, if, as i suspect, you're just being disingenuous and deceptive, then for the love of truth - STOP IT. do some purification practice, and get real: NEITHER YOU, NOR THE DALAI LAMA, CAN HIDE THE TRUTH, regardless of how many of you keep trying.

the truth is out there, and sooner or later the world will see this man and his ban for what they really are.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 13:36

oops: that'll be "uninformed", not "uniformed".

tho' all these types of post ARE pretty uniform...

Geronimo
28 August 2008 at 18:22

The Teachings

Of

Manjunatha

Lord Je Tsongkapa

Is

The Holy Grail

"Shambala's Confederation

of

Shugden's Vajra Warriors"

The Buddha Dharma Will Flourish

and

Brave and Honorable Citizens

With

Discriminating Wisdom

Will

Safeguard Our Rights to Freedom

&

The Dharma

Tsongkapa's Council Of Vajra Elders

OM VAJRA WICKI WITRANA SO HA

"Now I am free to practice openly"

As Provided Within

US Constitution and The Bill Of Rights

&

Indian Constitution

&

United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance

Geronimo
28 August 2008 at 18:52

This Dalia lama is not the elected head of anything and has no rights to determine the destiny of anyone, other than himself.

Tibetan Buddhism will recede and a new Buddhism is arising in the West.

A Buddhism protected by the Laws of a Free Society. Not anchored in the past with a medieval theocratic dictatorial potentate of the Dalia Lama lineage.

No longer will any Buddhist Practioner suffer under the whims of a single person's will.

We do not need any authoritarian Lama's approval to believe as we please.

We have cut the ties to the Old World and are free to turn the Wheel Of Dharma.

We are free to express our Love and Compassion.

Without interference from anyone.

Each and every one of us stand individually.

We all Stand Together as One.

Our beliefs are not confused with the Idol Worshipping of another human being as our faith.

We do not take refuge in sentient beings.

We are Free to believe as we choose.

We are free to fight anyone who attempt to steal or interfere with our freedoms.

Do Not Tread On Me!

Lubov
29 August 2008 at 06:57

whiteroha,

view http://www.france24.com/en/20080808-dalai-lama-demons-india-...

1. Has the Dalai Lama imprisoned or ordered violence against Shugden followers for practising their freedom of worship? are you serious? they can't get food, travel or practise freely.

2. Has the Dalai Lama even condoned any kind of secular punishment or reprisals against Shugden followers? YES

Tara

Tibet for Tibetans
29 August 2008 at 12:24

::KNOWN SHUGDEN CULT MEMBERS ON WANTED LIST::

Known Shugden cult members, Lobsang Chodak & Tenzil Choezim are listed on the C.B.I (Indian equivalent of the F.B.I) WANTED LIST: (see CBI Website Wanted List), in connection to the triple murder of Geshe Lobsang and two students. The CBI state that the two have sought refuge with the Chinese Government in Tibet.

Amnesty International on Dorje Shugden

(AI, USA | June 1998)

Amnesty International (AI) has received and studied a large amount of material alleging human rights abuses against worshippers of the Tibetan Buddhist deity Dorje Shugden. These alleged abuses are reported to have happened largely in Tibetan settlements in India. None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses. AI campaigns on the grave violations of human rights in Tibet.

EXTRACT FROM AMNESTY REPORT

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 14:26

hey, t4t -

"Known Shugden cult members" - known by whom?

AI found no evidence of "grave violations of human rights" in this instance which, by their measure, means WRONGFUL IMPRISONMENT, TORTURE OR UNLAWFUL KILLING. that they found nothing that falls into these categories and therefore within their chosen means NOTHING in relation to whether human rights abuses that fall OUTSIDE their chosen remit have been committed.

Amnesty International does not campaign for religious freedom, unless the restriction of this freedom involves any of the gross violatioons listed above.

you know this. stop posting this rubbish in order to deceive.

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 15:03

t4t -

the CBI Wanted List on the website you mention contains no reference to Shugden whatsoever.

theloneranger
29 August 2008 at 23:11

Here are two questions for you the Dalai Lama's followers to answer:-

Question1 :- Is it ok for the Chinese to suppress Tibetans for following the Dalai Lama? Yes or No?

Question2 :- Is it ok for the Dalai Lama to suppress Tibetans for following Dorje Shugden? Yes or No?

If you answer Yes and Yes, this is okay, your views are extreme and you have no respect for religious freedom but theres no contradiction.

If you answer No and No, this is also ok, you have a compassionate view and a respect for religious freedom and there is again no contradiction.

If you answer No and Yes, this is not good, you have contradicting viewpoints and double standards!

Speeches by Dalai Lama on Dorje Shugden ban!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqsrHiSa7Zc

Lucy James
30 August 2008 at 04:38

By the way, if Geezer appears on this blog with his spam, as he has on the other blogs, I think the best way to deal with him (and other trolls or spammers) is probably just to report them to the New Statesman. It says on their contact page:

To report comments on articles or to make a complaint about New Statesman content please email: comments@newstatesman.co.uk

Douglas Chalmers
30 August 2008 at 08:05

#Meindert Gorter: "...back in Tibet, the only role left for him would be a religious one. He could be the humble monk he has always claimed to be, but does he really have it in him? Or is he harbouring ambitions to become the religious leader he never was..... His dual role allows him to stop being a politician and the suffering of the Tibetans in exile ends' but the Dalai Lama seems set on leading them back as the dogmatic Buddhist pope that he never was..."

Wow, well, the last thing the world needs is yet another Neocon pope..... and the Catholic pope has already quietly gotten it on with the CCP and is doing just fine. Thus, the Tibetans have been caught lagging behind (again, duh) but a Buddhist "pope" who has also accepted selling his soul just as his predecessors once did to the Mongolians for the sake of temporal power and position will ever be their lapdog. Who cares?

Instead of responding further, may I simply quote the founder of Aikido and author of "The Art of Peace".....?:-

"The Art of Peace is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions.....

The Path is exceedingly vast. From ancient times to the present day, even the greatest sages were unable to perceive and comprehend the entire truth; the explanation and teachings of masters and saints express only part of the whole. It is not possible for anyone to speak of such things in their entirety. Just head for the light and heat, learn from the gods, and through the virtue of devoted practice of the Art of Peace, become one with the Divine.....

The divine beauty Of heaven and earth! All creation, Members of One family. If you have not Linked yourself To true emptiness, You will never understand The Art of Peace.....

Eight forces sustain creation: Movement and stillness, Solidification and fluidity, Extension and contraction, Unification and division.....

Do not fail To learn from The pure voice of an Ever-flowing mountain stream Splashing over the rocks. The penetrating brilliance of swords Wielded by followers of the Way Strikes at the evil enemy Lurking deep within Their own souls and bodies Crystal clear, Sharp and bright, The sacred sword Allows no opening For evil to roost.....

To practice properly the Art of Peace, you must:-

Calm the spirit and return to the source.

Cleanse the body and spirit by removing all malice, selfishness, and desire.

Foster and polish The warrior spirit While serving in the world;

Illuminate the path According to your inner light..."

http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/osensei/artofpeace/

Douglas Chalmers
30 August 2008 at 08:08

Actually, my preceding post was in response to the authors' "Will the Dalai Lama return to Tibet?" topic which is the final in the series but it is also appropriate here as this is all really about blaming China anyway. Ref. Meindert Gorter at http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/08/d...

Lyara
30 August 2008 at 20:53

Whenever the Dalai Lama is questioned, the smear campaign against the NKT kicks into full gear. For a refutation of the allegations against it quoted above, please see

http://www.NewKadampaTruth.org

Thank you.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 05:15

Douglas Chalmers (a.k.a. Dick Charmer, Southern Swan, Fong of the Inland) is an online pariah who has spilled his bile and poor behavior on several other websites, including Get Up blogs, where the following advice in regard to him was offered: "Just ignore him. I wish he would get the mental health care that he so desperately needs."

He could also be this "Geezer" character because it appears that Chalmers also talks to his other personalities that he creates.

If you ever encounter him, please follow Tenzin's lead and report him to the blog/comments moderator of the site.

Khedrup7
02 September 2008 at 02:01

The NKT's depiction of Shugden as a benevolent god of love is very far from the truth. His evolution as a deity is far more complex than this, and in order to fully comprehend it we need to examine a variety of views.

Firsty, I recommend investigating HH Sakya Trizin's statement about Shugden. It is his tradition which first propitiated this deity, though not as a Buddha, as a mundane spirit,

Secondly, "The Shuk-Den Affair, Origins of a Controversy" also examines the politics behind the "promotion" of a spirit-guardian to a fully enlightened Buddha.

Khedrup7
02 September 2008 at 02:03

Thirdly, there are many photos of two Shugden Lamas with PRC officials - Kundeling Losang Yeshe at the Chinese embassy. And a widely circulated photo of Gangchen Lama with the PRC selected Panchen Lama (the selection of the Tibetan people has dissappeared).

While it is dangerous to say that all Shugden practitioners have ties with China, it is clear that many do. On one recent blog I read, a Shugden supporter proudly stated he was going to Beijing to recruit people to protest against HH Dalai Lama.

Friendoftruth
02 September 2008 at 04:59

Dear K7,

What do you know about the holy Buddha Protector Dorje Shugden? What the Dalai Lama's people want you to know. I am sorry for your having only that source of information.

But it's totally irrelevant what you or me or the Dalai Lama's helpers from the world of Academia think of the nature of the Deity.

What is relevant is that the Dalai Lama is persecuting

the practitioners. This goes against many laws, it goes against the human rights of many people. This is what we are talking about here.

Speaking of ties with China, be careful with your sayings. The Dalai Lama recently expressed his profound desire to see Tibet go back to what he called "Mother China".

Since the Strasbourg Parliament session of 1988, the Dalai Lama gave up Tibet's independence. So yours and the Tibetan government in exile's convenient accusations of this or that people dealings with China are in this context entirely irrelevant.

Unhappily they only serve to slander innocent religious people and to fan the hatred of poor unhappy Tibetans around the world.

I beg you and the Tibetan government to show some compassion for all of them. Stop the slander, stop the persecution. Please!

Dougal
02 September 2008 at 17:45

"But it's totally irrelevant what you or me or the Dalai Lama's helpers from the world of Academia think of the nature of the Deity.

What is relevant is that the Dalai Lama is persecuting the practitioners."

absolutely right.

rights and wrongs of the practice we can make our own minds up about, and leave the academics to their scholarly deliberations.

persecution of others on religious (or any) grounds is *never* right. everyone can understand this.

Geronimo
03 September 2008 at 17:53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZhczLKMZck

"Wally Lama" cartoon

echo
05 September 2008 at 10:46

I find it interesting that the term ‘Chinese’ in this context is used as a slur against critics of the Dalai Lama.

The Dalai Lama and his government-in-exile willingly accepted the support of the American government while the latter was supporting murderous regimes abroad and failing to tackle racial injustice at home. Surely this implies the Dalai Lamas’s tacit acceptance of these policies, for no man of genuine peace and compassion would countenance support from a government whose policies he disagreed with? Yet I do not remember hearing the phrase ‘American Imperialist’ being applied to the Dalai Lama. Also the phrases ‘unelected’, ‘dictatorial power’ and ‘rule by decree’ are also remarkably absent from descriptions of the Dalai Lama though they are technically correct.

No-one would question the abysmal Chinese record on human rights. However, the Dalai Lama himself is currently being pursued through the Indian High Court for breaching constitutional freedoms. Further, UN figures on population growth, infant mortality and life expectancy in Tibet before and after the Dalai Lama’s departure would reveal that to use 'Chinese' as a blanket criticism is hardly justified as clearly there have been undeniable benefits from the Chinese presence in Tibet as well as the negatives.

Is it not really a case of the kettle calling the pot black in a crude, simplistic and desperate attempt to stifle legitimate debate and dissent?

thermostatic
05 September 2008 at 21:07

A few examples of where religion and politics are not separated: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Afghanistan to 2001.........Does being culturally different to the West make it acceptable to invoke religion to justify oppression and terror? So it's OK for the Dalai Lama to mix political and religious roles? It's just a cultural difference? Add DL to the above list of quasi-theocrats The Dalai Lama has some very dubious bed-fellows.

Mind you, I do remember him and Margaret Thatcher pleading amnesty for their 'friend' ( DL's word) General Pinochet, the Butcher of Chile. As the post above points out (thank you) the CIA was bankrolling both Pinochet and the DL at the same time.

Orange
06 September 2008 at 05:43

Mala,

From one point of view there are only a few Tibetans in the WSS protest pen, the majority is western, but from a Tibetan perspective even just one Tibetan in the WSS pen is a lot.

Any idea how much courage it takes for the Tibetans in the pen?

I think that, despite the best efforts of the DL, the majority of the Shugden supporters actually still is Tibetan, and that they are devastated about the situation. Sadly, the majority is too afraid to join the protests. However, every now and again a covert gesture or words of gratitude trickle through to WSS members.

The other thing to consider is that Shugden practitioners these days are portrayed as a minority cult - when the practice was rather common in the Tibetan community, both in Tibet and in exile. Compared to the number of Tibetan practitioners the number of western practitioners is rather small, i would think. the westerners just happen to be in the position to speak up without fear.

Anyway - thought i'd throw this into the mix here because the point that the WSS is mainly westerners is misinterpreted in too many other blogs already.

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 13:05

Over the past 400 years High Sakya and Gelug Lamas (including the Dalai Lama's tutor Trijiang Rinpoche - who has written extensive commentaries on the practice of Dorje Shudgen and still continues to practice Dorje Shugden in his current incarnation) have been devout Dorje Shugden practitioners. These Lamas are beyond samsara, Bodhisattvas who incarnate repeatedly in human form to lead us out of samsara. They are not concerned about politics but with the ultimate liberation from samsara- the cycle of suffering. Were they worshipping an evil spirit?

Dorje Shudgen is regarded by his practitioners as the same mental continuum of Wisdom Buddha of Manjushiri and JesongKhapa. If you look at the form of Dorje Shudgen - he reveals the complete path to enlightenment.

He wears a monks robes to indicate pure moral discipline is the foundation for spiritual path, his wisdom sword indicates the need to cut through self grasping ignorance -the root of samsara, his heart of compassion which he holds in his right hand , indicates his conventional Bodhichitta, the snow lion he rides on indicates the four fearlessness of a Buddha and so forth. Simply meditating on the Mandala of Dorje Shugden and his form can lead to many realisations of Sutra and tantra such as renunciation, compassion and emptiness. I know this from personal experience, because I am a Dorje Shudgen practitioner. How can a deity that reveals the complete path to enlightenment be an evil spirit! Once again a logical fallacy. Also Buddha's doctrine on emptiness teaches us that whether someone is a Buddha or a Mara is entirely dependent on our minds.

The HH Dalai Lama has given two reasons for banning the practice of Dorje Shugden;

a) It affects his life and well-being b)it affects the Tibetan cause. If Dorje Shudgen is really is an 'evil spirit/demon/worldly god' how can it affect the HH Dalai Lama - who is said to be the incarnation of Buddha Avalokiteshvara. When BuddhaShayamuni was about to attain enlightenment, Devaputra mara tried to obstruct his spiritual progress by throwing weapons at him but Buddha transformed the weapons into flowers through his meditation on love. After-all the HH Dalai Lama is said to be an enlightened being- the Buddha of Compassion. Why can't he do the same? Buddha has taught that for a Buddhist there are no external enemies simply our internal enemies of delusions and this applies to the so called 'evil spirits' (if that is what the Dalai Lama regards Dorje Shugden to be) - who were once our mothers too.

To be fair to the Dalai Lama, he has never self- proclaimed that he is an enlightened being. He is in reality a politician (a skilful -one at that too )using his spiritual authority for political and worldly aims. I am sure his oracle Nechug (who is infact a worldly spirit and well- known for getting predictions wrong - such as Tibet will be free in 2000) has had a large part to play in this. In fact there are sources that reveal that it is through Nechug's influence the HH Dalai Lama's mind towards the englightened Dorje Shugden changed. Afterall - it is with Dorje Shugden's help that the Dalai Lama escaped from Tibet and Dalai Lama himself was a devout practitioner of Dorje Shugden until the age of 50.

Just because someone opposes the Dalai Lama's actions of destroying many people's spiritual lives does not mean they are in league with the Chinese. Making the link between the two is an undoubtable logical fallacy and a result of propaganda. What the Chinese have done to the Tibetan people is despicable to say the least. However, although they may have harmed and killed Tibetans, they never destroyed the unity of the Tibetans nor their rich spiritual heritage. The ban against the practise of Dorje Shugden instigated by the Dalai Lama has done exactly this. Tibetans are turning on Tibetans. This is really sad and heart breaking. (If you are unsure of what I am talking about - please watch the documentary called 'the dalai Lama and dorje Shudgen' in You tube)

History tells us that politics and religion never mix and what is happening is a clear indication of why they don't.

Love and prayers.

shaza
06 September 2008 at 16:42

Lucy James - "As you may or may not know, for the first half of his life the Dalai Lama relied upon Dorje Shugden, indeed taking a life commitment to do so."

The Dalai Lama made offerings to Shugden from 1951 to early 70's.

He refused to take the life-entrustment initiation from Trijang Rinopoche. So there's no life commitment as it is with GKG.

Chevi - "Over the past 400 years High Sakya and Gelug Lamas (including the Dalai Lama's tutor Trijiang Rinpoche - who has written extensive commentaries on the practice of Dorje Shudgen and still continues to practice Dorje Shugden in his current incarnation) have been devout Dorje Shugden practitioners. "

A gross exaggeration.

And Trijang's commentary does not withstand much scrutiny.

Best

Shaza

thermostatic
06 September 2008 at 17:24

I thought this blog was about DL critics and China, not "life-entrustment initiations", whatever they might be. This is the modern world not feudal Tibet. And in the modern world there is no place for dictators appointed through divination, which is what the DL is. Can anyone honestly take the way the DL was chosen seriously? Seriously? Come on. This is 2008. Over the centuries millions have gives their lives in the fight for democracy and freedom. And this guy is given authority on the basis of superstition, oracles and dreams?

The only reasons he has such influence is the backing he got from the CIA (anti-Chinese) and the fact that sentimentalist Westerners cant take two disappointments in life. The first was that there is no Father Christmas.

The questions are simple: do the DL and his supporters believe in democracy or not? Secondly, are his critics tarred as pro-Chinese because it makes good propaganda to say all the DL critics must be in league with each other. And that is so simplistic it is insulting to anyone but a DL fanatic.

shaza
06 September 2008 at 17:55

Hi Thermostatic,

Yes back to topic.

About DL's critics...i don't see any evidence that NKT is backed by China. Not yet.

But other Shugden heads like Kundeling Lama (Meindert Gorter's teacher) and Lama Gangchen have good relations with the Chinese.

In the French24 documentary, Kundeling Lama denied he was backed by China but did not deny he had Chinese “friends”.

In order to ridicule the Dalai Lama's "autocratic regime", Kundeling even apologised for the CCP’s crimes in Tibet, saying it was not as severed as it was in mainland China.

I supposed he was trying to be objective here.

He says, ‘political revolution without mistake is impossible.’

NKTers certainly don't agree with him, or do they?

Best

Shaza

thermostatic
06 September 2008 at 19:36

Hi Shaza - For me to accuse someone as being backed by the Chinese is no different than being backed by the USA. Both have appalling human rights records. The Americans orchestrated the overthrow of virtually every legitimate goverment in Latin America and replaced them with military dictaorships. There is proof the Dalai Lama was backed by the CIA for much of the same period. However is there any such proof of financial or intelligence support for the Dalai Lama's critics by the Chinese? In any event, as a realist, I have no problem with some Lama having good relations with the Chinese. It's what everybody wants these days, just as they do with the Americans. CCP or CIA - take your pick! I dont think the NKT are even in this ball game. The whole Shugden thing is a diversion probably cooked up by some CIA field officer in the India station to prop up their puppet.

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 21:19

Shaza: I have taken an extraxt from Trijiang Rinpoche's comentaries to Dorje Shugden practice the 'Music Delighting the Ocean Of Protectors'.

For those of who don't know he is, Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang (1901-1981) is most the most important Gelugpa Masters of our present time and the Root Guru of most Gelugpa Lamas alive today, including the Dalai Lama. He relied upon Dorje Shugden as his Protector until his death. His current incarnation who lives in Switzerland continues to practice Dorje Shugden as he has done in previous lives.

This is what he has to say about Dorje Shugden (taken from 'Music delighting the ocean of protectors');

"Some, who have fallen under the influence of the demon of the partisanship, think and say that this supreme Deity, the great emanated Dharmapala, is no different than an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit who has an inferior form as a result of being a monk or lay person who died with bad karma. Leave aside relying upon him as a Protector, they even deride others who do so. There are some, indeed, who echo such claims knowing nothing about it.

"Yet all this talk is nothing but babbling speculation. Why? Because this great guardian of the teachings is well known to be the precious supreme emanation from Drepung monastery'supper house, Dragpa Gyaltsen, arising in a wrathful aspect. The proof is unmistaken. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, as is taught in the lineage, was the final birth in a reincarnation lineage that included the Mahasiddha Birwawa, the great Kashmiri Pandit Shakya Shri, the omniscient Buton, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and so forth; this is proven by valid scriptural quotation and reasoning. These great beings, from a definitive point of view, were already fully enlightened, and even to common appearances, every one of them was a holy being that attained high states of realization. What worse karma could there be than denying this and asserting that he was born in the preta (spirit) realm?

'Therefore, for holy beings it is not at all far-fetched that they might show themselves in a wrathful form out of the power of compassion and prayer for the sake of a special purpose, and it should be recognized that they are emanations of Buddha's inconceivable secret qualities. But for them to take birth as a sky-wandering preta through the force of negative throwing karma like an ordinary preta would be utterly impossible. To say it were possible would be to deny the validity of the natural law of cause and effect. Why? From the definitive point of view those holy beings are fully enlightened. Moreover, even from the common point of view they attained high states of realization in reliance upon guarding their moral disciplines as they would their eyes, from youth onwards throughout their lives. To say that a causal factor of pure ethical discipline could result in rebirth in a lower realm of existence would be to assert that actions performed could be wasted; that one could experience the results of actions not performed by oneself; and that such scriptural statements as "From generosity, wealth, from ethics, happiness, are invalid and so forth. As a consequence, one would be turning ones back on Buddha's teachings as a whole.

"Furthermore, from the definitive point of view, that these holy beings were already fully enlightened innumerable ages ago, is clear if one examines the accounts of their lives, and if one were to say that a fully enlightened being could take birth as an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit, then one would be asserting that degeneration is possible from the state of full enlightenment or that someone could be both fully enlightened and an ordinary preta at the same time! Or else, one would have to say that the accounts of those great beings lives are worthless. A mountain of absurd consequences, previously non-existent distorted ideas, would have to be accepted."

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 22:20

Shaza;

Two important reasons why we can’t simply dismiss Trijiang Rinpoche’s words;

1) Trijiang Rinponche, an incarnate Lama, is considered to be an emanation of Buddha Amitabha. With the recognition (which Dalai Lama himself was part of)of his current incarnation (who is living in Switzerland ) is further proof of his enlightened status – as we know only Buddhas and Bodhisattva’s who are beyond samsara, can choose their rebirth whereas the rest of us are thrust forward by our Karma to take rebirth in one of the six realms in Samsara.

2) However, we know that mistakes have been made where ‘tulkus’ (incarnates Lama’s ) have been wrongly identified for political/worldly reasons, by mistakes etc I would think that the current Dalai Lama – is a classic example of this. So – in our current age we can’t simply rely on his recognition as an incarnate lama to prove his enlightened status. Instead we should look closely at his actions. If you do, it becomes clear that he performs exactly the same the actions of a Buddha and therefore he is a Buddha. I will explain this point further;

Buddhas have only one function – that is to lead suffering sentient beings out of Samsara. It is only out of their compassion they teach Dharma and reveal the path to enlightenment/liberation. Trijiang Rinpoche has dedicated his whole life to teaching pure Dharma (i.e not mixing Dharma with worldly concerns such as politics, power, manipulations etc) and it is directly through his kindness that we have Dharma in the West !!!Why? - because many of our current lamas in the western world were once his disciples.

So if you ask me who am I going to believe Trijiang Rinpoche or the Dalai Lama, for me it is simple – Trijiang Rinpoche for the following reasons;

1) He has dedicated his whole life to teaching Pure Dharma (i.e: not mixed with worldly concerns such as politics) and I am currently benefiting from his kindness because my root Guru is also one of his disciples. Dalai Lama – has taught NOTHING but pure dharma – Instead he has mixed Dharma with politics, Tibetan culture and worldly concerns. He has abused the kindness of his Guru by using the Dharma he learnt from Gurus to increase his worldly status that he currently enjoys whilst engaging in the heinous action of causing a schism and destroying Pure Dharma from this world.

2) As mentioned earlier Trijiang Rinpoche’s actions are indicative of the actions of a Buddha , whereas Dalai Lama with his Hollywood celebrity status, guest editing Vogue, appearing Apple Mac adverts, his ‘political’ role in the world and in Tibet, his connections with CIA –are actions of a politician, who is currently using spirituality to further his political and worldly aims. In this respect – he is yet another power hungry world leader filled with worldly concerns masquerading as a spiritual master – who I have compassion for.

Please do not be fooled by the Dalai Lama’s charisma or his worldly status. We have to check carefully whether his actions are in accordance with the Dharma – or that of a Bodhisattva - which he is supposed to be. Or at the very least – are his actions even in accordance with what he is supposed be champion of ‘human rights and religious freedom’. I THINK NOT! His actions with regards to this Dorje Shugden ‘controversy’ suggests otherwise. Please think for yourself and carefully consider the evidence that is in front of you – if you care to look.

shaza
07 September 2008 at 13:16

hi thermostatic,

---------'In any event, as a realist, I have no problem with some Lama having good relations with the Chinese.

yeah they are only human. it's nothing incredible when they have a common enemy - ie DL.

And CCP's policy has been very consistent in the past 10 years, the enemies of DL are our friends. That's why Kundeling Lama is a poster boy in Chinese media today.

Best

Shaza

shaza
07 September 2008 at 13:40

Hi Chelvi,

--------------------"Two important reasons why we can’t simply dismiss Trijiang Rinpoche’s words; "

Yes we can! Because Trijang's words do not make sense. For example...

--------------------" Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, as is taught in the lineage, was the final birth in a reincarnation lineage that included the Mahasiddha Birwawa, the great Kashmiri Pandit Shakya Shri, the omniscient Buton, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and so forth"

Buton lived from 1290 to 1364. Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen lived from 1350 to 1413.

So you see the problem to say that Duldzin Dragpa Dragpa was a reincarnation of Buton?

That's one reason why Trijang's "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protector" is pretty much a "cooked" book.

Best

Shaza

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 14:27

Shaza -

"And CCP's policy has been very consistent in the past 10 years, the enemies of DL are our friends."

so whose fault is that? the "enemies", or the CCP? even if i don't want to be associated with any political body or cause - and i don't - if such a body wants to capitalise on my activities for the sake of religious freedom, there is, regrettably. little i can do about that, is there? (though i have to say i'm yet to receive my communist funding...)

if the DL hadn't banned our protector, we would be of very little interest to the CCP, i think. it's politically very stupid of the DL to alienate a large section of his own people, is it not?

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 14:30

and for the record, to be clear: from my position as an active WSS member, i've never seen any link whatsoever between the WSS and the CCP, financial or otherwise.

thermostatic
07 September 2008 at 15:55

Who said or did what to whom in the anals of time is irrelevant. That is the whole point. To get everybody distracted by arcane and pointless debate. This whole issue will be resolved. The CIA India station will summon Tenzin Norbu. They will say the US has some big trade delegations going to China. We want you and Father Christmas (DL) to shut the hell up - about everything. We dont want you upsetting our new economic friends. And if you dont shut up, we will screw you. SILENCE.

And for Shaza - if you are a China watcher you will know in recent years CCP has hosted the largest inter-tradition Buddhist conferences ever held. Funny how they support Buddhism in general but not DL' s brand. That's because he, not them, mixes dharma with politics. A fool to his own people, if not an enemy.

shaza
07 September 2008 at 16:25

Hi Thermostatic,

-----------------------And for Shaza - if you are a China watcher you will know in recent years CCP has hosted the largest inter-tradition Buddhist conferences ever held. Funny how they support Buddhism in general but not DL' s brand. That's because he, not them, mixes dharma with politics. A fool to his own people, if not an enemy.

CCP certainly supportsTibetan Buddhism and certainly mixes Dharma with politcs, otherwise why would they picked their own choice of the Panchen Lama and tried every means to elect this puppet as a minister?

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-319196200802...

And Dougal -

--------''if the DL hadn't banned our protector, we would be of very little interest to the CCP, i think. it's politically very stupid of the DL to alienate a large section of his own people, is it not?'

you can also argue the other way round and say that despite all these Chinese politiking, DL still insists to denounce Shugden because it is the right thing to do, though unpopular.

Best

Shaza

Tenzin Peljor
08 September 2008 at 11:50

for the sake of balance of all these comments:

An overview on academic researches regerding the Dorje Shugden Controersy can be found here:

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/academ...

My thoughts about Fundamentalism and Buddhism together with an extensive link section can be found here:

http://buddhism-and-fundamentalism.blogspot.com/

Thoughts about mixing Dharma with Politics can be found here.

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/mixing...

A less partisan summery of the conflict can be found here:

http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html

Dougal
08 September 2008 at 14:18

less partizan??

Tenzin, you - one of the most vehement, prolific and obsessive anti-Shugden/anti-NKT posters on the world web web, with your several, various anti websites and blogs (including info-buddhism.com and info-buddhismus.de - "less parrtizan"???

:-D

my friend - that would be hilarious were it not for the fact that lying is a breach of your "Bhikkshu" vows.

Friendoftruth
09 September 2008 at 04:55

What is all this nonsense about ties to the Chinese? Once again you prefer to ignore the best of our Western values about human rights and choose to follow the one who instituted a permanent religious persecution? What a pity, I'm so sorry for such choice.

About this nonsense of accusing others of having ties to China, followers of the Dalai Lama, be careful with your sayings. He is the number one person in the world trying to be linked to China.

Not only it's already 20 years that he gave up Tibet independence but this year he insisted so much about being accepted back by the Chinese that he even said that he couldn't wait to see Tibet back in the fold of Mother China.

Do you realize the extent of the nonsense, of proclaiming publicly his intense desire to be part of China and at the same time demonizing the Protector's people as China's spies? This is just with the purpose to destroy them in the eyes of the Tibetan, who hate his idea of autonomy but don't dare oppose him, they prefer to spit over the scapegoat, the Protector's practitioners.

For those trying to malign Ganchen Rinpoche, I'm sorry for them. Ganchen Rinpoche is bringing Western help directly to Tibet and of course you have to have relations with local authorities if you want to do that. Besides, he publicizes himself with plenty of pictures and he never hid his good relationships with Chinese and Brasilian and the Pope and the man in the moon... that is his style, and he believes in building brigdes of friendship and peace through his Peace organization. Anyway, He at least is helping Tibetans in Tibet while others destroy the modicum amount of happiness that people might have there by sending troublemakers from India to Tibet. And I don't know this through reading blogs or newspapers, this is something that I know first hand, directly from the mouth of Tibetans from Tibet that saw their peace destroyed by the people sent by DL.

So dear people that approve of DL persecuting the Protector's practitioners: every contemporary fact that you present is as true as the horns of a rabbit. And you try to convince other using the mists of past history?

Have a good night!

shaza
09 September 2008 at 15:42

Hi Friendoftruth,

There's nothing wrong working with the Chinese. that's why you haven't seen me going around bashing all the 'patriotic" lamas in Tibet.

The 10th Panchen Lama was working with the CCP, he was "patriotic" no doubt, but that's what it took for him to protect the Tibetans. He was publicly chastised during the Cultural Revolution and subsequently imprisoned for many years before his release. Shortly before his death in 1989, he still criticised the CCP's policy in Tibet.

Now, that's what i called working from within for the benefits of Tibet.

But there is a difference between working with Chinese for the benefit of Tibetans and apologizing for CCP's crimes in Tibet like Kundeling Lama did in the French24 documentary.

-----------------------------------------""For those trying to malign Ganchen Rinpoche, I'm sorry for them. Ganchen Rinpoche is bringing Western help directly to Tibet and of course you have to have relations with local authorities if you want to do that. Besides, he publicizes himself with plenty of pictures and he never hid his good relationships with Chinese and Brasilian and the Pope and the man in the moon... that is his style, and he believes in building brigdes of friendship and peace through his Peace organization.

Anyway, He at least is helping Tibetans in Tibet while others destroy the modicum amount of happiness that people might have there by sending troublemakers from India to Tibet. And I don't know this through reading blogs or newspapers, this is something that I know first hand, directly from the mouth of Tibetans from Tibet that saw their peace destroyed by the people sent by DL. ""

Whether Lama Gangchen is currying favor with the Chinese for his own ambitious expansion the Shugden cult or doing something good is yet to be seen.

But his supporters are honestly sectarian for all to see.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/sectarianism.htm

"'The much talked about "yellow book" contains stories of what happened to people who "displeased" Dorje Shugden, which means to say, they were practitioners of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and of Dorje Shugden as Dharma protector who did not heed his repeated advice and warnings not to mix and pollute the teachings. Sickness, insanity and death ensued. The book was compiled by Tzeme Rinpoche, an eminent lineage holder, and we can therefore assume that these accounts are more than mere pedagogy, but actually happened the way they are told. (As a consequence of the scandal following the printing of the yellow book, Tzeme Rinpoche has ceased to teach. A famous disciple of Tzeme Rinpoche is Dr. Thupten Jinpa, HH the Dalai Lama's main translator.) "

And I am sure they have no problem showing Shugden's true face in Chinese monasteries because this is what they believe.

Best