Be Reasonable Robert Thurman, and Debate This Schism With Freedom Loving People like myself.

Robert Thurman,
I challenge you to defend your lies!
If you do not reply to me personally. Then you are all the things, I say of you. That you, Robert Thurman, are a Liar and Traitor to the Principles of Democracy and the dharma.

We are not all perfect beings and this defeintely includes both of you, Tenzin Gyatso Norbu and Robert Thurman.

Some of us realize that Tenzin Gyatso Norbu is a deceitful self cherishing incarnate of a Feudal War Lord, that slaughtered his own people to seize and maintain control of the different approaches to the Teachngs Of Lord Buddha.
Some of us realize that he is the antithesis of a man who trampels daily by his ignorance or attempts to undermine the underpinning of the Bill Of Rights and Civil Liberties of the People.

The Dharma Flourishes because, it has a home that respects and protects the rights of all to believe as they choose.

This schism only magnified his abbhorrence of individual thought to reason and find the way to the truth that Lord Buddha taught to us.

He prefers to lie and deceive and use the mouthpiece of Bob Thurman to validate his claims, that he actually speaks from the truth.

They have no weapons to use against the WSS,or any of us!
We,who are fighting to protect the rights of all People Everywhere, to Believe as They Choose.
Why?
Because, he has lied and violated the very principles,I’ve already mentioned.
Justice they say is Blind. But not Blind to the Breaking of Our Laws. which keep us from the Darkness of Lawlessness.

Nothing that has been said, can be disproved or proved within cetain disciplines.
However, if enough people see the truth and think about it long enough. Then the truth will prevail.
We did nothing to deserve this abuse, and he says nothing that justifies His Lies and Abuse to Those Suffering due to his activities to maintain his power base.
He is not a Buddha, and Lies with the Ease of a Mississippi River Boat Gambler.
Not all of us are scholars or well versed, but we have the common sense that Lord Buddha attributed to we mere mortals, to reason ourselves out of ignorance and find liberation one day.

The only loss of credibility is his and Bob’s incessant lying and deception they spew from their mouths each and everyday.

Only by the tenacious and continuous fortitude of each and every voice resonating with protest that he speak the truth. We expect even from the least of us.
Lord Buddha by all accounts, fought against the status of deceit and lying of other intent to have their self cherishing lifestyles. Maintained by the suppression of others by perverting the truths and creating all manners of maras to keep it that way.

This is a Democracy and not all voices may speak as you wish, but we speak with sincerity and a desire to eliminate ignorance and lies that hinder all from the seeking the way home safely.

I hope they challenge any of us publically with a rational and logical defense of their actions and try to defend this insanity on the Global forum for All to Witness.

If they had a leg to stand on, he would have courageously pursued it already.
They have not, nor do they intend to confront you or me or anyone else directly.
Instead they have Death Squads slinking down dark alley ways, and then have the audacity to point the finger at us.
He cannot hold his own, unless he is speaking to his ‘Chorus of Supporters’.
So, relax and let Democracy Protect Us from these Monsters.

Even Hitler had his day. He was loved by the deluded and brainwashed, and you can see what eventually happened to them.

As Dr, Bernis, who was in Munich during the bombing by the Allies in WWll, said. “Yes, Thom! We are grateful even for this tragedy. Imagine where we Germans and the world would be today, had Hitler had his way?”

This is warfare, not a nuance of semantics and dialectics within the debate halls of a Nunnery or Monastery.
We, The People, ill-versed and flawed, as we may be. Will fight on and on, until we defeat this monster and his mimmicks, who only care for personal power over others.

Hey There! Tenzin Gyatos Norbu! It’s me, Thom Canada calling you and Bob out, to defend your lies.!
See………………………………………..not a word of reply!

Why? Because they are cowards and thieves of the dharma, and know to fear me and you and anyone else who shines the Light of Truth.

We all attempt to say this truth with the sincerity of our hearts, and not the lies of a cheating mind portrayed by them

less partizan??

Tenzin, you - one of the most vehement, prolific and obsessive anti-Shugden/anti-NKT posters on the world web web, with your several, various anti websites and blogs (including info-buddhism.com and info-buddhismus.de - "less parrtizan"???

:-D

my friend - that would be hilarious were it not for the fact that lying is a breach of your "Bhikkshu" vows.

Dear SeekingClarity,

Because Manjushri is an enlightened being he can have many emanations and doesn't have to reincarnate strictly sequentially like an ordinary samsaric being. This explains the disparity in the dates of Buton Rinchen Drub and Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen. In reality, Manjushri/Dorje Shugden's emanations are everywhere.

Buddha said in the scriptures "I am the Teacher and I am the listener" indicating that he can appear as both Teacher and student, or as anything for the benefit of living beings.

Here are two questions for you the Dalai Lama's followers to answer:-

Question1 :- Is it ok for the Chinese to suppress Tibetans for following the Dalai Lama? Yes or No?

Question2 :- Is it ok for the Dalai Lama to suppress Tibetans for following Dorje Shugden? Yes or No?

If you answer Yes and Yes, this is okay, your views are extreme and you have no respect for religious freedom but theres no contradiction.

If you answer No and No, this is also ok, you have a compassionate view and a respect for religious freedom and there is again no contradiction.

If you answer No and Yes, this is not good, you have contradicting viewpoints and double standards!

Speeches by Dalai Lama on Dorje Shugden ban!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqsrHiSa7Zc

whiteroha -

i was just about to start - again - writing a long-winded refutation of yet *another* completely incorrect and uniformed comment, but then i just couldn't bring myself to do it.

i'm sorry, but i cannot believe your ignorance is genuine and your motivation is good.

if it is, then i sincerely apologise for questioning you, and i beg you - please - go educate yourself. read up - with an open mind - on the overwhelming, vast and growing body of evidence proving the Dalai Lama's harmful actions and their effects on the worldwide Buddhist community. we are NOT making anything up. the irrefutable evidence is out there for all with eyes to see.

on the other hand, if, as i suspect, you're just being disingenuous and deceptive, then for the love of truth - STOP IT. do some purification practice, and get real: NEITHER YOU, NOR THE DALAI LAMA, CAN HIDE THE TRUTH, regardless of how many of you keep trying.

the truth is out there, and sooner or later the world will see this man and his ban for what they really are.

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org

Blogspot has had a lot of new articles recently that are worth checking out.

For example:

http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/12/open-letter-to-tser...

“The monasteries have been cleansed!” http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/12/tibetan-youth-congr...

and

http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/11/response-to-india-u...

The Dalai Lama is visiting the Southern India monasteries soon (in Jan) and the poor Shugden monks there are terrified.

Dalai Lama, please give religious freedom. This cannot go on.

I find it interesting that the term ‘Chinese’ in this context is used as a slur against critics of the Dalai Lama.

The Dalai Lama and his government-in-exile willingly accepted the support of the American government while the latter was supporting murderous regimes abroad and failing to tackle racial injustice at home. Surely this implies the Dalai Lamas’s tacit acceptance of these policies, for no man of genuine peace and compassion would countenance support from a government whose policies he disagreed with? Yet I do not remember hearing the phrase ‘American Imperialist’ being applied to the Dalai Lama. Also the phrases ‘unelected’, ‘dictatorial power’ and ‘rule by decree’ are also remarkably absent from descriptions of the Dalai Lama though they are technically correct.

No-one would question the abysmal Chinese record on human rights. However, the Dalai Lama himself is currently being pursued through the Indian High Court for breaching constitutional freedoms. Further, UN figures on population growth, infant mortality and life expectancy in Tibet before and after the Dalai Lama’s departure would reveal that to use 'Chinese' as a blanket criticism is hardly justified as clearly there have been undeniable benefits from the Chinese presence in Tibet as well as the negatives.

Is it not really a case of the kettle calling the pot black in a crude, simplistic and desperate attempt to stifle legitimate debate and dissent?

Hi Friendoftruth,

There's nothing wrong working with the Chinese. that's why you haven't seen me going around bashing all the 'patriotic" lamas in Tibet.

The 10th Panchen Lama was working with the CCP, he was "patriotic" no doubt, but that's what it took for him to protect the Tibetans. He was publicly chastised during the Cultural Revolution and subsequently imprisoned for many years before his release. Shortly before his death in 1989, he still criticised the CCP's policy in Tibet.

Now, that's what i called working from within for the benefits of Tibet.

But there is a difference between working with Chinese for the benefit of Tibetans and apologizing for CCP's crimes in Tibet like Kundeling Lama did in the French24 documentary.

-----------------------------------------""For those trying to malign Ganchen Rinpoche, I'm sorry for them. Ganchen Rinpoche is bringing Western help directly to Tibet and of course you have to have relations with local authorities if you want to do that. Besides, he publicizes himself with plenty of pictures and he never hid his good relationships with Chinese and Brasilian and the Pope and the man in the moon... that is his style, and he believes in building brigdes of friendship and peace through his Peace organization.
Anyway, He at least is helping Tibetans in Tibet while others destroy the modicum amount of happiness that people might have there by sending troublemakers from India to Tibet. And I don't know this through reading blogs or newspapers, this is something that I know first hand, directly from the mouth of Tibetans from Tibet that saw their peace destroyed by the people sent by DL. ""

Whether Lama Gangchen is currying favor with the Chinese for his own ambitious expansion the Shugden cult or doing something good is yet to be seen.

But his supporters are honestly sectarian for all to see.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/sectarianism.htm

"'The much talked about "yellow book" contains stories of what happened to people who "displeased" Dorje Shugden, which means to say, they were practitioners of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and of Dorje Shugden as Dharma protector who did not heed his repeated advice and warnings not to mix and pollute the teachings. Sickness, insanity and death ensued. The book was compiled by Tzeme Rinpoche, an eminent lineage holder, and we can therefore assume that these accounts are more than mere pedagogy, but actually happened the way they are told. (As a consequence of the scandal following the printing of the yellow book, Tzeme Rinpoche has ceased to teach. A famous disciple of Tzeme Rinpoche is Dr. Thupten Jinpa, HH the Dalai Lama's main translator.) "

And I am sure they have no problem showing Shugden's true face in Chinese monasteries because this is what they believe.

Best

Shaza

The Teachings
Of
Manjunatha
Lord Je Tsongkapa
Is
The Holy Grail
"Shambala's Confederation
of
Shugden's Vajra Warriors"

The Buddha Dharma Will Flourish
and
Brave and Honorable Citizens
With
Discriminating Wisdom
Will
Safeguard Our Rights to Freedom
&
The Dharma

Tsongkapa's Council Of Vajra Elders

OM VAJRA WICKI WITRANA SO HA

"Now I am free to practice openly"
As Provided Within

US Constitution and The Bill Of Rights
&
Indian Constitution
&
United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance

Hi Friendoftruth

Maybe I was too easy on Gangchen.

With the help Chinese officials, Gangchen did force tibetan monks in a monastery to worship Shugden or face imprisonment.

http://www.tchrd.org/publications/hr_updates/2000/hr200006.html#evacuation

''In Gangchen village, there are 53 Tibetan families and most of them are farmers. Of these, 37 families face cereal shortage due to small landholdings, unfavourable climate and heavy taxes. At the age of 20, Sonam became monk of Gangchen Monastery, located in Saga County of Shigatse Prefecture and did intensive study of religious scriptures since then. Gangchen Monastery suffered complete destruction during the Cultural Revolution, and saw renovation in 1987 when local Tibetans and some elder monks took collaborative actions. Until March 1997, Gangchen Monastery had 29 monks, but the number has now reduced to 12 monks. In 1997, Sonam was appointed as a member of the Democratic Management Committee and tru-ren (Vice-President) of the Religious Committee of Gangchen Monastery. A six-member work team came to the monastery in March 1997, and stayed for three and a half months to conduct re-education. The members banned the pictures of the Dalai Lama and set a limit of 19 monks. No arrests were reported at the time. In June 1997, Gangchen Lama, a close associate of the Chinese authorities, visited the monastery. He called a special meeting of the monks whereby he gave instructions on showing loyalty and patriotism for PRC.

Gangchen Lama visited the monastery again on 3 December 1999, and instructed the monks to worship shugden deity (Shugden is a spirit which the Dalai Lama discourages to propitiate). He claimed himself as the re-incarnation of Panchen Sang Tashi, the founder of Gangchen Monastery, and called the monks to respect and worship him. He distributed booklets to the monks that has detailed explanation about his re-incarnation. However, no monks accepted him at the time.

Later, Gangchen Lama called 10 officials from the County Religious Department and PSB to instruct the monks to worship shugden and to respect him. A meeting was held in the monastery that very same day where the officials threatened the monks with arrest, detention and imprisonment if they oppose Gangchen Lama. Furthermore, refusal on the monk's part would be deemed political and they would be investigated for crime against the nation. Since the beginning of 1999, Gangchen Lama had started building a new monastery of his own on the northen valley of Gangchen Monastery. The officials of County Religious Department and PSB forcefully evacuated the monks of Gangchen Monastery to the new monastery on 27 December 1999. Two new statues of the shugden deity placed in the prayer hall by Gangchen Monastery were met with protest by the monks. The statues were later taken by the monks who hid them in a nearby cave, which was used for meditation. There has been no history of shugden worship by the monks of Gangchen Monastery.

Owing to constant pressure to worship the deity and orders to carry out the instructions of Gangchen Lama, seven monks fled the monastery. Sonam fled from his monastery on January 1999, and stayed in Shigatse for two months. He escaped to Nepal in a group of eight Tibetans by paying 1800 yuan to a guide. He wishes to join a monastery in India. ''

So friendoftruth, is this your example of Gangchen bringing in Western help via liasing with local authorities??

Best

Shaza

Best

Shaza

Hi Friendoftruth,

---------------------------------------------------"You still talk about a book, it doesn't matter what this fellow or that one thinks about the book, you use the book as a justification for the barbaric ways of the Tibetan leader. "

Perhaps you want to talk about another fellow's book like Trijang Rinpoche's 'Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors' instead?

Trijang's words certainly gives me food for thought, espcially about how Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen suddenly remembered his promise he made in a previous life, and then arranged his own death with the help of Nechung so that he can become the protector ghost of Gelug.

"Accordingly, going back to the last vision for a moment, not only had he received the command and commitment from his direct and lineage gurus such as Je Tsongkhapa who were of the same mental continuum as the Arhat Upagupta, it is also pleased him to hear it in the words of exhortation from that Protector of the Four Places, the Dharma King Nechung, and he had a vision of arising as a lord of the wrathful ones with an entourage of wrathful spirits and wrathful offerings. Yet his wish to arise as a protector of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings and the opportunity of the circumstances that would converge between the Great Fifth Dalai Lama and Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who were two great beings like the sun and the moon, seemed remote at the time. How quickly the commitments joined as one, he was enthroned, and so forth, as a great powerful wrathful protector of the Geden teachings, can generate conviction, as well.

When strangled with the scarf by those evil‐minded ones,

Through the force of bodhicitta you arose as an overlord of wrathful ones,

And, day and night, with various terrifying manifestations,

Frightened even the courageous, praise to you!

Then, when he remembered his previous promise, he
went to Pehar's temple and said to the Dharma King Nechung, 'Now I remember my previous promise, so what should I do?' The Dharmapala said, 'I can perform the activities to take care of that!' Soon after that, emanations of the Dharma King Nechung, hosts of travelers from all over, including many from Kham, eastern Tibet, came to Lhasa and sought audience and made offerings to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen at the upper residence, in numbers that seemed to eclipse even those seeking audience with the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama's Ganden Palace was referred to as the lower residence and Dragpa Gyaltsen's Palace was referred to as the upper residence and people were talking as if the upper and lower residences of Drepung were practically equal in stature. Moreover, in the center of the rows of monks attending the great offering and prayer festival of Lhasa they made Dragpa Gyaltsen's thron higher than the Dalai Lama's. By this and other various means, Desi Sonam Chöpel and other attendants at the Ganden Palace were made unbearably jealous and sought a chance to kill Dragpa Gyltsen. The auspicious time for Dragpa Gyaltsen's promise to be fulfilled had also arrived so, when he was thirty‐eight, on the twenty‐fifth day of the fourth month of the fire monkey year, he pretended a sudden illness which he said was due to 'nyen' spirits and made his preparations. On the thirteenth of the fifth month, Desi Sonam Chopel's brother named Depa Norbu or Nangso Norbu, in league with the evil Desi, under pretext of illness, came secretly to where Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was staying in the large bedroom of the house where he was born, called 'ga kha sa pa'xxviii, with the intention of killing him. No matter how hard he tried to stab him with his weapon, however, it would not penetrate the skin, so he stuffed a silk scarf down his throat until he died."
(p.93ff, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors)

--------------------------------------"So please, stop serving us your reheated soup! "

Well, it hasn't stopped Shugden followers from quoting Trijang's masterpiece today. The sorry thing is, many haven't really read through this bible to see how absurd the stories are.

Best

Shaza

The NKT's depiction of Shugden as a benevolent god of love is very far from the truth. His evolution as a deity is far more complex than this, and in order to fully comprehend it we need to examine a variety of views.

Firsty, I recommend investigating HH Sakya Trizin's statement about Shugden. It is his tradition which first propitiated this deity, though not as a Buddha, as a mundane spirit,

Secondly, "The Shuk-Den Affair, Origins of a Controversy" also examines the politics behind the "promotion" of a spirit-guardian to a fully enlightened Buddha.

#Meindert Gorter: "...back in Tibet, the only role left for him would be a religious one. He could be the humble monk he has always claimed to be, but does he really have it in him? Or is he harbouring ambitions to become the religious leader he never was..... His dual role allows him to stop being a politician and the suffering of the Tibetans in exile ends' but the Dalai Lama seems set on leading them back as the dogmatic Buddhist pope that he never was..."

Wow, well, the last thing the world needs is yet another Neocon pope..... and the Catholic pope has already quietly gotten it on with the CCP and is doing just fine. Thus, the Tibetans have been caught lagging behind (again, duh) but a Buddhist "pope" who has also accepted selling his soul just as his predecessors once did to the Mongolians for the sake of temporal power and position will ever be their lapdog. Who cares?

Instead of responding further, may I simply quote the founder of Aikido and author of "The Art of Peace".....?:-

"The Art of Peace is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions.....

The Path is exceedingly vast. From ancient times to the present day, even the greatest sages were unable to perceive and comprehend the entire truth; the explanation and teachings of masters and saints express only part of the whole. It is not possible for anyone to speak of such things in their entirety. Just head for the light and heat, learn from the gods, and through the virtue of devoted practice of the Art of Peace, become one with the Divine.....

The divine beauty Of heaven and earth! All creation, Members of One family. If you have not Linked yourself To true emptiness, You will never understand The Art of Peace.....

Eight forces sustain creation: Movement and stillness, Solidification and fluidity, Extension and contraction, Unification and division.....

Do not fail To learn from The pure voice of an Ever-flowing mountain stream Splashing over the rocks. The penetrating brilliance of swords Wielded by followers of the Way Strikes at the evil enemy Lurking deep within Their own souls and bodies Crystal clear, Sharp and bright, The sacred sword Allows no opening For evil to roost.....

To practice properly the Art of Peace, you must:-
Calm the spirit and return to the source.
Cleanse the body and spirit by removing all malice, selfishness, and desire.
Foster and polish The warrior spirit While serving in the world;
Illuminate the path According to your inner light..."
http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/osensei/artofpeace/

Dear K7,

What do you know about the holy Buddha Protector Dorje Shugden? What the Dalai Lama's people want you to know. I am sorry for your having only that source of information.
But it's totally irrelevant what you or me or the Dalai Lama's helpers from the world of Academia think of the nature of the Deity.
What is relevant is that the Dalai Lama is persecuting
the practitioners. This goes against many laws, it goes against the human rights of many people. This is what we are talking about here.

Speaking of ties with China, be careful with your sayings. The Dalai Lama recently expressed his profound desire to see Tibet go back to what he called "Mother China".
Since the Strasbourg Parliament session of 1988, the Dalai Lama gave up Tibet's independence. So yours and the Tibetan government in exile's convenient accusations of this or that people dealings with China are in this context entirely irrelevant.
Unhappily they only serve to slander innocent religious people and to fan the hatred of poor unhappy Tibetans around the world.
I beg you and the Tibetan government to show some compassion for all of them. Stop the slander, stop the persecution. Please!

And what is the origin of this beautiful story? I am too used to your slandering ("your" meaning, not your person, the DL's side's slandering) to believe a single word of what you are saying. You are applying an old soccer rule: the best defense is to attack. And you are attacking a Lama in order to fabricate a small red herring to erase for a while what the Dalai Lama is doing. Too transparent.

Which brings me back also to your comments on the Yellow Book. So you are using the sayings of a book to justify a religious persecution?
Just look into what the Tibetan community is doing to the Tibetan Gelugpas faithful to their Lamas, to their tradition: the civic death to which they are condemned, the social death to which they are condemned, and all the suffering to which they are condemned that I am not going to repeat again because I am not a parrott.

And you dare talk to me about a Yellow Book! So whatever an old fashioned Lama wrote on a book is the justification you give for the unlawful, cruel campaign unleashed against innocent people?

Either you are kidding me, or kidding yourself.
Enough of this nonsense. You should be ashamed to keep on trying to find justification for such cruelty. You don't justify a religious persecution, you only try to stop it. No need to be a Buddhist, just a decent human being. You do not condone a persecution, you try to stop it if you can.

You know, some people report that some of our Lamas have said already years ago that the Dalai Lama is sick. So in the end, if this is true, the poor man might have some justification for his actions. But tell me, what is the justification for the non Tibetans, the ones who are not subject to pressures like the Tibetans are, what is their justification, your justification for following the Dalai Lama in his unlawful behaviour?

Tibetan Religion and Politics
Phayul[Saturday, September 13, 2008 12:16]
Samten G. Karmay

Karmay, Samten Gyaltsen
The Tibetans prided themselves on what they believed to be a unique tradition, the "combination of religion and politics" (chosi zungdrel). The concept itself goes a long way back in Tibet's history. However, many other countries still have similar traditions. It was only at the beginning of the 20th century that countries like France and Japan began to have the legislation for the separation of church and state that gave birth to the idea of practicing religion as a personal belief not regulated by the state. The process of secularization has been slow, but it is moving inexorably forward. This state secularism is the modern trend in many countries the world over.

It was startling to see a political meeting that took place in Dharamsala on May 3-4 2008 and broadcast on YouTube. It was attended by the heads of all the Tibetan religious sects and was presided over by HH the Dalai Lama. One of the topics of the discussion was the tulku issue, the reincarnated lamas, but the outcome of the discussion has not been reported. Not a single layman took part in the gathering not to mention any women. One wondered what happened to the famous democratization of the exiled Tibetan community in India.

The separation of church and state does not imply abandoning the practice of the established religion. Far from it, it secures freedom of religious exercise and therefore the right of personal choice whether one wishes to practice a religion or not. Furthermore it establishes the neutrality of the state as far as the religious denominations are concerned. In the case of Tibet there would be no preferential status whether it is the Bon, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu or Gelug traditions or even the Tibetan Moslems and Christians. What the "separation" does imply, however, is the government and religious institutions being kept independent from one and another and not combined as in the Tibetan political tradition.

A secular state is therefore neutral when it deals with religion by not supporting or opposing any particular sect nor does it give any preferential treatment for a citizen who belongs to a particular religion.

Buddhism as a state religion
Buddhism became the state religion of Tibet in the reign of the emperor Tri Song Detsen (742-797) and it remained so till the end of the Pugyal Dynasty in 941 AD. During the imperial period the emperors were the supreme heads of the state and the emperors were entirely laymen. The fact that Buddhism was the state religion did not affect the personal choice of faith among its members and in the country. However, the imperial government did subsidize Buddhist establishments such as building temples and contributing to their maintenance and this was considered to be meritorious work.

There were other periods during which time a lay government was in power in Tibet, for example, during the Tsang Desi's regime (c.1600-1642) which was most remarkable in its attempt to revive the national glory of the lay government of the imperial period.

The beginning of theocracy
However, in 1642 the Tsang Desi's government was toppled by the combined forces of Tibetans and Mongols at the instigation of the Gelug sect which effectively empowered the Fifth Dalai Lama (1617-1685), as the head of state. He had been, until 1642, merely the abbot of Drepung Monastery. A new era of theocracy was ushered in with the total supremacy of the clergy and the subordination of laymen to it. At the time of the Sakya and Pakmotu administrations from the 13th to the 15th centuries there were of course elements of theocratic development, but from 1642 the Ganden Potrang, the official seat of the government in Drepung Monastery, came to symbolize the supreme power in both the theory and practice of a theocratic government. This was indeed a political triumph that Buddhism had never known in its history in Tibet.

The term "theocracy" is normally defined as a form of government in which a 'god' or 'deity' is recognized as the supreme ruler. In Tibet's case the Dalai Lamas are considered as the manifestation of the Buddhist deity of compassion. In this theocratic system the head of the state was not only the political leader of the people, but also their spiritual master. In other words, the whole population was subjected and put in the position of spiritual disciple to the master. Within the context of this essentially religious bond no devotee would ever dream of opposing the view of the master, because that would be tantamount to breaking the sacred relationship between the master and the disciple. How does this fit with the discussion of democracy among the Tibetans in exile for whom HH the Dalai Lama is the political leader, but who nonetheless bestows on them the Kalachakra initiation?

Since the head of the state was a "monk-king" (domtsun gyalpo) the entire manner of raising children was immersed in religious education from a very young age without it ever being realized where this was going to lead. In such a system there was no personal choice of the religion that an individual wished to practice. One became aware of what one was subjected to only when one reached a mature age. In other words the faith was simply imposed by the state. The idea of the right of personal choice of one's own faith was therefore totally unknown and in modern terms denied. Important and even enlightening as this religious education might be, it had the undesirable effect of barring the entire population from contact with any kind of progressive or modern education over the last three hundred and sixty years. It is no wonder that the outspoken French socialist Minister of Culture, Claude Allègre, once remarked that he had never come across a Tibetan who was a biologist, archeologist, mathematician or physicist.

An incarnate Lama as ruler
The head of the state in Tibet, however, was never meant to be a tulku, a reincarnate lama. This status was inherited incidentally through the Fifth Dalai Lama when he was ushered in as the leader of the country. The irony is that not only he himself was a reincarnate lama, but he also embarked on creating others, for example, the Panchen Lama Lobzang Yeshe (1663-1737), who was recognized as the tulku of Panchen Lama Lobzang Chogyen (1567-1662), in 1667, by the Fifth Dalai Lama. This initiated the rapid increase of the number of tulkus especially in the Gelug sect. Perhaps one does not need to raise the question as to whether this tulku system ever served the national interest of Tibet at all. It is high time for the Tibetans to learn lessons from the checkered history of the tulku system that has caused so much political instability and disunity for Tibet.

In the 20th century alone, national unity completely broke down when one lama was set against the other as the pawns of great powers such as the Manchus, British India, the Russian Empire, the Guomintang government and now the Communist Party of China. In general, throughout the history of Tibet the tulku institution has invariably been the cause of schism, political intrigue and sectarian squabbles. Because of the tulku tradition we have now two Panchen Lamas and two Karmapas. Are we going to have two Dalai Lamas?

Recently the Religious Affairs Department of the Chinese government implemented a new law called "Order no. 5", containing 14 articles on "Management Measures for the Reincarnation of 'Living Buddhas' in Tibetan Buddhism". The Chinese government's strict control over tulku recognition further proves how politically vulnerable this system is and to what extent the tulku tradition can be exploited for political ends by an occupying power against the interests of the Tibetan people.

HH the 14th Dalai Lama has already announced that he will have no political role if "genuine autonomy" is established in Tibet. However, I believe that the Dalai Lama institution should be maintained if the majority of the Tibetan people agree upon it. Thus, in a future constitution this one should be the only incarnation in the country, and without any political prerogative. Ganden Monastery would be an ideal residence for the future Dalai Lamas if they wish to be a real "simple monk".

In the interview given to Euronews (August 11, 2008) HH the 14th Dalai Lama stated, I quote: "The Dalai Lama's rule is now outdated." If this is indeed the case, and I believe it to be so. it is desirable for the Tibetan people start to planning for the future with his help. He is the only one who has such long term world-wide experience and whose authority is unrivaled amongst Tibetan leaders. A decisive action is needed to be taken and very urgently. If he wishes he can assist the Tibetans in sorting out the theocratic conundrum in order to finally leave an unambiguous political legacy in the form of a total separation of religion and politics.

Unless and until the Tibetan people come to comprehend the need for the separation of religion and state they will never be able to create a healthy and unified community under a truly democratically elected leader.

They do not need to look far a field for a good example of this. In 2008 Bhutan, the Himalayan kingdom, very successfully introduced a parliamentary democratic system. Although the Kagyu sect is the official religion of state as represented by the Zhung Datsang, this was left aside and did not play any role in the election. Its new constitution states "It shall be the responsibility of religious institutions and personalities to promote the spiritual heritage of the country while also ensuring that religion remains separate from politics in Bhutan.."(article 3.3, www.judiciary.gov.bt)

Of course it appears inconceivable or even sacrilegious to break the taboo on the separation of religion and state for the Tibetans, but we can no longer hide our heads in the sand.

Secularism, sectarianism
In an interview given in Tokyo, April 2008, HH the Dalai Lama stated that he favoured in fact "secularism". The reason he gave was that "secularism" has no room for "sectarianism". Indeed Tibetan Buddhism has often been plagued by sectarian strife and this is still continuing in spite of HH the Dalai Lama's strenuous efforts to discourage and condemn it. It is precisely because of sectarianism that he has himself abandoned the cult of the deity Shugden, as well as forbidding it in all religious institutions in the exiled community. The main reason for forsaking this cult is that it engenders a sense of the superiority on the part of the Geluk clergy and it acts as an anathema to the other sects. It is not only a question of spirit-worship as people tend to claim when explaining why the cult has been forbidden.

A secularization of the exiled community should contribute towards solving the unending sectarian problems and lead to true unity amongst the Tibetan people, without any further religious interference in the political domain.

Hi Friendoftruth

----------------------------------------"And what is the origin of this beautiful story? I am too used to your slandering ("your" meaning, not your person, the DL's side's slandering) to believe a single word of what you are saying. "

Gimme a reason to believe otherwise.

show me how Lama Gangchen was bringing in Western assistance by expelling monks for not worshipping Shugden, not just empty claims.

---------------------------------------"You are applying an old soccer rule: the best defense is to attack. And you are attacking a Lama in order to fabricate a small red herring to erase for a while what the Dalai Lama is doing. Too transparent."

You brought it up yourself. I wasn't that eager to find fault with Lama Gangchen but i'm glad you put me up with that exercise.

-------------------------------------- "Which brings me back also to your comments on the Yellow Book. So you are using the sayings of a book to justify a religious persecution? "

Who is persecuting whom?

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/a-forgotten-perspe...

-------------------------------------------------" And you dare talk to me about a Yellow Book! So whatever an old fashioned Lama wrote on a book is the justification you give for the unlawful, cruel campaign unleashed against innocent people? "

Don't just listen to me.

Listen to what your fellow Shugdenpas say about it. They certainly believe all harmful actions of Shugden were justified.

Otherwise, why would they say "The book was compiled by Tzeme Rinpoche, an eminent lineage holder, and we can therefore assume that these accounts are more than mere pedagogy, but actually happened the way they are told."

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/sectarianism.htm

Best

Shaza

"But it's totally irrelevant what you or me or the Dalai Lama's helpers from the world of Academia think of the nature of the Deity.

What is relevant is that the Dalai Lama is persecuting the practitioners."

absolutely right.

rights and wrongs of the practice we can make our own minds up about, and leave the academics to their scholarly deliberations.

persecution of others on religious (or any) grounds is *never* right. everyone can understand this.

The Bombings were the result of Dr. Robert Thurman advice to Tenzin Gyatso Norbu !
He follows in the footsteps of his idol GW Bush betrayl of America. Bob is up for grabs and best watch his backside if he continues to be a Terrorist . He will end up on the Terrorist Watch List. His activities refelct the criminal activities of Wall Street and the Criminal Bush Administration . All of who will end up in Jail before this is all over.
Tenzin Gyatso Norbu, you are 50n years to late to try and pull this off. Why not drop out and count your mala or play with your daughter [which is fine that you have one}, but leave us alone and sing to your Chorus on the hills of Dharmasala. Try this stuff in the West and you will Really Regret it. We have Powerful Friends also and it's time to Shut Up!

CS Lewis best described in his book, “The Great Divorce”. The situation at hand that the TGIE is a joke. Forcing the people on the Bus to take a dark ride into a hell, not of their making.
Well we can by the force of the land that makes us each equal, take them off this bus to nowhere.

I propose that rather than debating and swinging with these motely crews of Old Medievalist Tyrants, known as TGIE to let go and make the People free and let them off this bus to hell.

They reside aside an impossible position on the edge of a ledge known as Dharmasala.

We can lead them out of there! It’s so simple I can hardly believe it.
We in the West can bring Peace at last by ignoring the insanity to regain a land that shines as a Golden Star on the flag of China.

Instead,we put on the lead, and get them out of the Colonies.

Either go back home to China and make your changes from within with fearless challenge in a legal realm of China.

I propose that with only 120,000 or so. We apply for Visas to Alaska for all of them.
The People still there vote to take their share of the Dalia Lama’s income over the last 30 years and leave in masse as do the lemmings.
Only there is no ledge that takes them to their deaths in the oceans.
Instead they float over to Anchorage and become Alaskans.

Tiblaskans for Alaskans reject the Pinnocchiio Politics of the Dalia Lama.

Here we only have 600,000 in the largest state in the nation.
It cold and there is snow with wildlife and mountains in abundance.
Each Alaskans receive $6,0000.00 every year, just to live up here!

Then we will see how th DL’s power has dwindled to nothing. Once the people are free to speak their voices that none care for the path that this man, Tenzin Gyatso Norbu has taken them down a road to nowhere.

Get out while you can and you have the political clout to pass a motion to let a mass Exodus in to the Land Of Freedom called the USA.
From here after 10 years you can return to Tibet No Fear

Mala,

From one point of view there are only a few Tibetans in the WSS protest pen, the majority is western, but from a Tibetan perspective even just one Tibetan in the WSS pen is a lot.

Any idea how much courage it takes for the Tibetans in the pen?

I think that, despite the best efforts of the DL, the majority of the Shugden supporters actually still is Tibetan, and that they are devastated about the situation. Sadly, the majority is too afraid to join the protests. However, every now and again a covert gesture or words of gratitude trickle through to WSS members.

The other thing to consider is that Shugden practitioners these days are portrayed as a minority cult - when the practice was rather common in the Tibetan community, both in Tibet and in exile. Compared to the number of Tibetan practitioners the number of western practitioners is rather small, i would think. the westerners just happen to be in the position to speak up without fear.

Anyway - thought i'd throw this into the mix here because the point that the WSS is mainly westerners is misinterpreted in too many other blogs already.

To reiterate, Dorje Shugden is the manfestation of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri who protects Buddhists from negative minds and helps us increase our love, compassion and wisdom.

As the Dorje Shugden Society in India put it: “Our Gelug or Ganden tradition, which came from Atisha and Je Tsongkhapa, was until the 20th century the most widespread and mainstream of Tibetan Buddhism. Nowadays, the practitioners who are openly faithful to their teachers and trying to keep the transmission and personal practice of these teachings pure are called the “followers of Dolgyal” by the Dalai Lama, and are known to the world as “Dorje Shugden practitioners”, as if we were a brand new sect. We are not. We are the ones continuing to practice as our spiritual forefathers did, and if we are treated as a separate group, at least it should be said that ours is the very ancient faith of the Buddha and that our practice has been handed to us through the centuries.”

Samdhong Rinpoche's quote on France 24 is ludicrous.

What is it like to be revered as a God King since the age of five? The Dalai Lama has enjoyed unelected rule over the Tibetans in exile for 68 years , gaining more and more control over every aspect of their religious and poltical lives. It is fine for him to give up his Buddhist practice of relying upon the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden, but it is very wrong for him to force others to stop.

If this issue of Dorje Shugden has revealed anything to me, it is that if you question even one decision of the Dalai Lama you are immediately accused of cataclysmic subversion of all that is good and holy in this world. In other words, you must be on the pay roll of the Chinese. But as there is absolutely no evidence for this tired accusation, I won’t explore it further here. And if this controversy is playing into Chinese hands, surely the Dalai Lama has only himself to blame for creating it. He is creating the divided house.

Buddhism is non-theistic -- there is no almighty creator commonly referred to as God, Allah etc. According to Mahayana (including Tantric) Buddhism there are countless enlightened beings because everyone has the potential to perfect their good qualities and awaken from the sleep of ignorance.

There are also many Protector Buddhas or Deities appearing since the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, all of whom appear in relatively wrathful forms to reveal their enlightened abilities to destroy the main enemies of living beings, which are the negative minds (we all these "delusions") of anger, attachment and ignorance.

All these wrathful Protector Buddhas have unusual life stories, as do all Tantric Deities. e.g. Tara was born from the tears of Avalokiteshvara and so on.

What is important to me in my prayers Dorje Shugden is not so much the tales told of his origin but his nature and function. I see him as the same nature and mental continuum as the peaceful aspect of Wisdom Buddha Manjushri, Je Tsongkhapa, who appeared in the fourteenth century to revive Buddhism and whose teachings became the Gelugpa tradition, the largest of the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism. Dorje Shugden's function is to remove obstacles from our mind and gather favorable conditions for our spiritual practice to flourish -- as someone said, he is a bit like the Buddhist equivalent of St. George or some other feisty Saint. That may be to simplify it, but without undestanding Mahayana Tantric Buddhism, I think this subject needs simplifying!
However it was that Dorje Shugden and other Deities originally arose, they all share the same omniscient wisdom and universal compassion and in different ways can help living beings overcome their suffering and attain enlightenment.

I would also like to add to Mr Gotter's article to say that nowadays our Dorje Shugden statues are not always hidden in the West but you can see them in the meditation rooms. The practice is open to anyone who wants to join in, as are all the other meditation classes, study programs, pujas (prayers), and so on.

I think this might be because Western culture is different to Tibetan culture and we don't always appreciate a good mysterious spiritual practice in quite the same way -- we like things to be somewhat more transparent and accountable. Just a thought.