The Faith Column

115 comments from readers

wisdombuddha
27 August 2008 at 13:08

The Dalai Lama says anyone who is against him is aligned with the Chinese. There is not one shred of evidence to support this claim:

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/08/are...

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com

Lucy James
27 August 2008 at 13:23

To reiterate, Dorje Shugden is the manfestation of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri who protects Buddhists from negative minds and helps us increase our love, compassion and wisdom.

As the Dorje Shugden Society in India put it: “Our Gelug or Ganden tradition, which came from Atisha and Je Tsongkhapa, was until the 20th century the most widespread and mainstream of Tibetan Buddhism. Nowadays, the practitioners who are openly faithful to their teachers and trying to keep the transmission and personal practice of these teachings pure are called the “followers of Dolgyal” by the Dalai Lama, and are known to the world as “Dorje Shugden practitioners”, as if we were a brand new sect. We are not. We are the ones continuing to practice as our spiritual forefathers did, and if we are treated as a separate group, at least it should be said that ours is the very ancient faith of the Buddha and that our practice has been handed to us through the centuries.”

Lucy James
27 August 2008 at 13:27

People have wondered, is the Dalai Lama allowed to wipe out a religious tradition?

The short answer is no. It is not his duty, as some have said, much less his right. Spiritually speaking, he is not the head of Buddhism, there is no such thing. Even within Tibetan Buddhism, he is not the head of any of the four schools. Politically and legally speaking, his actions contravene the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the Indian Constitution, and even his own nascent Tibetan constitution.

So why is the Dalai Lama doing it?

Perhaps he feels he can get away with it and so far he is right about that… he has already made significant inroads into wiping out this Buddhist tradition and the world hasn’t batted an eyelid. He has accomplished this through destroying the reputation of Shugden practitioners by calling them cultists, spirit worshippers, Chinese spies, even murderers -- although none of these claims is true.

“Dorje Shugden practitioners don’t care about Tibet” is another accusation we hear.

Tibetan Shugden practitioners are not anti-Tibet nor anti-Dalai Lama. They helped the Dalai Lama escape from Tibet and set up clinics, hospitals and monasteries during the years of exile. They love their country. It is ironic that in the lead up to the Olympics, the Dalai Lama used world sympathy for Tibet as a smokescreen to instigate his last push against Dorje Shugden practitioners, hence further alienating a significant portion of Tibetans who would otherwise have followed him. By virtue of his refusal to dialog, they have had to place themselves in opposition to him. So instead of using his perhaps final leverage over the Chinese, he has now had to defend himself at every public talk this year against accusations of human rights abuses from his own people. “A house divided cannot stand”.

How does he deflect blame for the challenges and failures of the Tibetan Government in Exile? What better scapegoat than some unseen “evil spirit”. That’s right – this is the reason he gives for the ban.

Apparently, Dorje Shugden is a “Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong in the Tibetan government”

It is hard to know whether the Dalai Lama actually believes that Dorje Shugden is a Chinese demon, or whether he is simply using this as a scapegoat to distract belligerent Tibetans from the painful concessions he has made to the Chinese (or both). What is certain is his heavy reliance on the state oracle to come to this decision. The Tibetan oracle system dates back to a pre-Buddhist time. The Dalai Lama makes his political decisions based on statements of his state oracle in a trance and divination with dough balls (see for example CNN’s recent report). At the beginning of the 1990s, the state oracle blamed Dorje Shugden as:

“A Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong in the Tibetan government, most harmful for the freedom of Tibet, and, heaviest of all, harmful for the life of His Holiness.”

Sure enough, in March 1996, the Dalai Lama banned the worship of Dorje Shugden, declaring that it posed “danger to his life and the cause of Tibet.” This has been highly effective in motivating patriotic followers to persecute practitioners. In the mid-nineties, when monks demonstrated in India against this ban, these followers hurled rocks at them and 60 had to be hospitalized. This was eerily echoed on July 18 2008 in New York City, when 3000 Tibetans rioted against the Western Shugden Society protestors -- only there we had the protection of the NYPD.

It is hard to sell this reason to Westerners (i.e. the reason we haven’t got Tibet back is because you are praying to the wrong Buddha, and if you keep doing it I will have a shorter life), so for them the media-savvy Dalai Lama uses different reasons.

Lucy James
27 August 2008 at 13:36

Samdhong Rinpoche's quote on France 24 is ludicrous.

What is it like to be revered as a God King since the age of five? The Dalai Lama has enjoyed unelected rule over the Tibetans in exile for 68 years , gaining more and more control over every aspect of their religious and poltical lives. It is fine for him to give up his Buddhist practice of relying upon the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden, but it is very wrong for him to force others to stop.

If this issue of Dorje Shugden has revealed anything to me, it is that if you question even one decision of the Dalai Lama you are immediately accused of cataclysmic subversion of all that is good and holy in this world. In other words, you must be on the pay roll of the Chinese. But as there is absolutely no evidence for this tired accusation, I won’t explore it further here. And if this controversy is playing into Chinese hands, surely the Dalai Lama has only himself to blame for creating it. He is creating the divided house.

Tenzin
27 August 2008 at 14:01

Buddhism is non-theistic -- there is no almighty creator commonly referred to as God, Allah etc. According to Mahayana (including Tantric) Buddhism there are countless enlightened beings because everyone has the potential to perfect their good qualities and awaken from the sleep of ignorance.

There are also many Protector Buddhas or Deities appearing since the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, all of whom appear in relatively wrathful forms to reveal their enlightened abilities to destroy the main enemies of living beings, which are the negative minds (we all these "delusions") of anger, attachment and ignorance.

All these wrathful Protector Buddhas have unusual life stories, as do all Tantric Deities. e.g. Tara was born from the tears of Avalokiteshvara and so on.

What is important to me in my prayers Dorje Shugden is not so much the tales told of his origin but his nature and function. I see him as the same nature and mental continuum as the peaceful aspect of Wisdom Buddha Manjushri, Je Tsongkhapa, who appeared in the fourteenth century to revive Buddhism and whose teachings became the Gelugpa tradition, the largest of the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism. Dorje Shugden's function is to remove obstacles from our mind and gather favorable conditions for our spiritual practice to flourish -- as someone said, he is a bit like the Buddhist equivalent of St. George or some other feisty Saint. That may be to simplify it, but without undestanding Mahayana Tantric Buddhism, I think this subject needs simplifying!

However it was that Dorje Shugden and other Deities originally arose, they all share the same omniscient wisdom and universal compassion and in different ways can help living beings overcome their suffering and attain enlightenment.

Tenzin
27 August 2008 at 14:07

I would also like to add to Mr Gotter's article to say that nowadays our Dorje Shugden statues are not always hidden in the West but you can see them in the meditation rooms. The practice is open to anyone who wants to join in, as are all the other meditation classes, study programs, pujas (prayers), and so on.

I think this might be because Western culture is different to Tibetan culture and we don't always appreciate a good mysterious spiritual practice in quite the same way -- we like things to be somewhat more transparent and accountable. Just a thought.

donaldosan
27 August 2008 at 14:48

Seeing how the Shugden followers acted in the USA over the last couple of months during teachings by HHDL i.e. with aggression and truly ugly and extremely unBuddhist behaviour surely more like a cult in fact ,that is really all we need to know about them ,I suggest they don't need meditation but most certainly do need lots of medication. (Lucy you are one of the sad and pathetic people and actually there was no riot and no 3000 Tibetans.).....Have they not heard about Karma?? certainly not Boddhicitta...!!!!

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 15:05

I remember what happened in New York this past July, where supporters of the Dalai Lama were screaming and spitting on Shugden practitioners... so much for proper behavior.

Here's one of the articles about that little spectacle:

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Dalai-Lama-supporter...

And when it comes to false and fradulant stories coming from the supporters of the Dalai Lama, let's not forget that they gleefully like creating that as well.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 15:11

donaldosan -

"no riot and no 3000 Tibetans".

i was there - were you? if so, you're a liar. if not, you don't know what you're talking about. i was spat on, hit by thrown coins and a bottle, told i would be shot, told i would have my throat cut, flipped off, cursed and cursed at. the NYPD used riot police and mounted police to keep the angry mob back, which filled all the sidewalks on the Radio City intersection in downtown Manhattan so deep that i couldn't see the back of the crowd. 3000 is a highly conservative estimate (500 was the grossly inaccurate number misreported in the Times by a reporter who wasn't even there). there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we would have been attacked far worse had the NYPD not been present.

now - what exactly did the protestors do that amounts to "aggression and truly ugly and extremely unBuddhist behaviour"? they chanted slogans loudly, asking the Dalai Lama to stop lying. they did so peacefully, without any aggression and without contravening any law or directive received from the police. it was described by a human-rights lawyer who witnessed it as: "a model of peaceful protest".

maia
27 August 2008 at 15:13

I am not en enlightened master, i am a woman from devon, it would be arrogant of me to say i know more about the ins and outs of a very complicated society than a person who has dedicated his 14 lifetimes to having the conciousness to keep coming back for the benefit of all sentient beings.

It is a very telling thing that Shugden supporters are virtually all western.

The search for power is a strong drive for some, and to hook up with a deity whose practice offers power is going to seem very appealing to the western mind, driven as it seems to be by speed and getting results from actions as it is.

If you ever have the opportunity to see the Oracle in trance you will see for your own eyes that these spirits are very real, and not just a little idea to hook an energy onto.

It was explained to me, that the man that Dorjee Shugden was, died a very violent and horrid death and on that basis as a very advanced practitioner resolved to destroy the Dalai Lama and government. It is with that intention that this energy is around as violent as it is today.

Shugden supporters killed three monks in Mcleod Ganj in 1997, and were traced back through Delhi it Nepal then Tibet to the Chinese, funny that.

There are frequent Shugden supporters in Mcleod seeking help because when they try to stop his practise,there are many side effects such as nightmares palpatations and other disturbing illness's.

The Dalai Lama rightly says, you can practise what you want, free will is all, but that he also has a moral responsibility to warn people not to do things that harm them.

TL
27 August 2008 at 15:16

Donaldosan,

I am sorry that you view demonstrations as ugly and un-Buddhhist. In my mind demonstrations are about freedom of speech and I've always been taught and strongly believe that Buddhists are not doormats.

I have never attended a protest until this year and have only done so because I have no other choice.

I did not attend the protests in the US, however, I have seen footage which reveals how supporters of the Dalai Lama treated WSS protestors - the Dalai Lama supportes spat on, threw bottles and swore at WSS protestors who were simply voicing their right in an orderly protest. A loud protest I can imagine but an orderly one.

Your comments to Lucy are offensive and unnecessary. Clearly Lucy has a heartfelt connection with Dorje Shugden and is explaining with clarity her perspective.

Thank you, I don't need medication, I've never been happier.

With love.

TL

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 15:18

and i didn't see any money from the Chinese, tho' a lot of it was waved in my face by angry Tibetans whose "Lama" had lied to them and told themn that we were sponsored by the PRC.

in fact, i believe gthat it was this single accusation that was the main reason for the mob's violent behaviour. any critic of the DL is a Chinese agent - and there's nothing more likely to incite blind hatred in devout and nationalistic Tibetans. i don't blame them for it, however - they've been lied to, and it's not their fault.

if we are sponsored by the PRC, where's my cut, please?

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 15:27

Dougal: If you know of any articles or news reports that are not getting proper coverage, please send copies or links to Mahabodhi IP (www.mahabodhi.net) --- we'll post them.

billsteve
27 August 2008 at 15:31

back by China or not, will that affect the truth. Just like Dalai lama previously was backed by the country against China, can we also conclude that Dalai's activity is just part of Western-anti-China activity instead of other reason?

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 15:35

oh, mala...

there has never been any credible evidence whatsoever shown likning those horrible murders in 97 to Shugden practitioners. the link was created as a smear by the TGIE (cynically cashing in on this terrible event for their own purpose); as a result, several prominent Shugden critics of the DL were questioned at length by Dharanmsala police, before being released without charge. the case remains open. educate yourself before spouting the TGIE's rhetoric for them - please. you can read a chronology of these events here: http://www.shugdensociety.info/historyEvents1997EN.html

then - what you say about Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's violent death betray a complete lack of understanding of basic Buddhist principles. how could "a very advanced practitioner resolve(d) to destroy the Dalai Lama and government"? no Buddhist practitioner wants to destroy people, let alone an advanced one.

Dorje Shugden is relied upon by practitioners as a Dharma Protector - a wise and compassionate Buddha. they DO NOT pray for power, money or any other worldly aim - they pray to increase their love, compassion and wisdom.

i am afraid that your misunderstanding of this entire issue, and of the Dalai Lama's nature and intentions, is representative of the majority in this world. so many people are deceived by him. its ths illusion, this glamourr, that is the tool that he's using to do such evil, and - so far - to get away with it so totally.

mala - lady from Devon - and all you ladies and gentlemen from all of your places: the emperor has no clothes.

please - investigate. educate yourselves. find out. http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 15:40

If I remember correctly, they originally pointed the finger at the Chinese government itself, but later settled on the Shugden practitioners as a scapegoat. To date, no one has explained how anyone crept in the the middle of the night, committed such a horrible crime, and no one heard a peep as it was occuring. How many yards from the DL's residence did this occur? The problem isn't Shugden, it's the "oracle".

TL
27 August 2008 at 15:44

Meindert, you commented that the "The Dalai Lama says he has investigated this matter to his utmost capacity. "

A very interesting comment. How has he investigated this matter - in meditation as per his comments on France 24 or with an Oracle, a medium, Nechung?

Hmmm I really don't think that they are valid reasons for attempting to wipe out a Buddhist tradition.

But back to the heart of the issue. If the Dalai Lama chooses not to practise, ok, if he enforces a ban for others not to practise, not ok. If he demonizes western practitioners who practise, not ok.

With love,

TL

Lyara
27 August 2008 at 15:49

Heigh ho, i wondered how long it'd be before someone brought up the false accusations of murder.... again!! I suppose it does indicate that in 12 years no one has had the imagination to find anything else to frame Dorje Shugden practitioners with. This libellous, irresponsible and tawdry accusation is brought up everywhere and we try and refute it everywhere because there is no evidence. None whatsoever.

So, here we go again....

The one piece of evidence the Indian Police originally linked to the Dorje Shugden devotees, a letter in the room of the victim, was found upon translation to contain no threat whatsoever and was immediately dropped. To assume that someone is responsible for murder without any evidence is quite an assumption! Aren't people innocent until proven guilty by dint of evidence? There simply is no evidence, which is why the Indian police dropped the case years ago. See the posting on this subject on this blog for details:

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/06/def...

If the Dalai Lama were the deity of compassion, why would he be causing suffering to so many Dorje Shugden practitioners and eviscerating the tradition of his own teachers? One thing is certain, due to people’s blind faith in the Dalai Lama, when he insinuates that there is a connection between the murders and Dorje Shugden practitioners -- despite a complete lack of proof and the fact that the victim had many fierce enemies in Tibetan society -- people jump to believe it and this terrible allegation has been repeated ad infinitum.

Since the Dorje Shugden devotees have not engaged in any violent activity despite being persecuted and ostracized, and since they are committed to trying to change the Dalai Lama’s mind through peaceful non-violent methods, it is particularly cynical to keep repeating that they are actual murderers just in order to discredit them.

From a talk by Helmut Gassner, a Buddhist monk and the translator for the Dalai Lama for seventeen years:

The Director of the Dialectics School was well known for his slanderous writings in which he would drag through the mud anything that veered even slightly from the course established by the government-in-exile: famous masters, the big monastic universities and even the Tibetan guerillas were his targets. In one of his last articles he wrote, "...these people will not cease to criticize the Dalai Lama until blood flows from their bodies...."

Given the character of the assassination and the humiliations the Tibetan guerilla movement had been subjected to in earlier years, one could have assumed that the search for the murderer would eventually also lead to them. But that obviously did not occur; already the next day, Dharamsala's local newspaper claimed that the murderer would certainly be found among the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi. Aside from who committed the murders, this gruesome act was exploited to the hilt by the government-in-exile with only one aim in mind: Resorting to all possible means they tried to incriminate the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi in order to put its leading monks behind Indian bars.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 15:52

Dharmakara -

thank you.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 16:10

Dougal: If any of the Shugden groups need free webhosting or other support, just contact me through our website and I'll take care of it.

Lyara
27 August 2008 at 16:21

Dear lady from Devon,

just to answer your points not already answered by others (and thanks for giving us the opportunity):

"... a very complicated society than a person who has dedicated his 14 lifetimes to having the conciousness to keep coming back for the benefit of all sentient beings."

Hmmm. The problem is not with the Dalai Lama taking rebirth after rebirth. The problem is that he is using his political power to ban a religious practice -- the power build-up is too great and there is no recourse whatsoever for anyone to disagree with him. Surely you have to admit there is something wrong with that? This wonderful YouTube video brings what Dorje Shugden practitioners are facing into sharp relief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sjsY3UgFto

"It is a very telling thing that Shugden supporters are virtually all western."

But they are not. A minority of Shugden practitioners are Western. Most Shugden practitioners live in India, Mongolia, China, Nepal and of course Tibet itself.

"If you ever have the opportunity to see the Oracle in trance you will see for your own eyes that these spirits are very real,"

I have seen oracles in trance, it is an impressive sight. Maybe this is why the Dalai Lama relies upon the Nechung oracle for his political decisions.

"and not just a little idea to hook an energy onto."

I do not rely upon Dorje Shugden through the medium of an oracle at all. Generally, as a daily practice, he has never been relied upon in that way -- the oracle of Dorje Shugden used to be summoned only to ask big questions like how to help the Dalai Lama escape from Tibet.

To my mind, the time for oracles has passed as they are too open to abuse and corruption (as with the Nechung state oracle's wildly differing and harmful political pronouncements on the subject of the Buddha Dorje Shugden).

I certainly don't need a medium to rely upon Dorje Shugden any more than I need one to rely upon Buddha Shakyamuni. I have been relying upon Dorje Shugden for many years and to me he is infinitely more than "a little idea to hook an energy onto", but thanks anyway for your attempts to educate me on my Protector.

"There are frequent Shugden supporters in Mcleod seeking help because when they try to stop his practise,there are many side effects such as nightmares palpatations and other disturbing illness's."

As someone commented yesterday to someone else, you might want to read the Crucible by Arthur Miller. These supersitious ideas are wrong and dangerous. The only nightmares and palpitations needing help are the ones created by the Dalai Lama's very real ban of Dorje Shugden and the persecution and ostracism it has engendered.

I know you and many others mean well, but it is hard to face up to the fact that the Dalai Lama might actually be wrong. However, the truth of his actions is coming out and there will be fewer and fewer straws to grasp at in terms of justifying his terrible behaviour on this issue. All he needs to do is lift the ban and give religious freedom and we could all breathe a huge sigh of relief.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 16:24

Dharmakara -

i'll pass this on to those i know. i'm just an individual practitioner, who has protested with the WSS - but i think your kind offer's likely to be seen here by all the other groups also.

thank you for your support.

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 16:35

I thank Lucy James for the lucidity of her writing. I would like to illustrate her analysis in relation with the political motivations for the ban on the Buddha Dorje Shugden. She says:

–“It is hard to know whether the Dalai Lama actually believes that Dorje Shugden is a Chinese demon, or whether he is simply using this as a scapegoat to distract belligerent Tibetans from the painful concessions he has made to the Chinese (or both)”–

POLITICAL MOTIVATIONS BEHIND THE BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN

Since he went into exile in 1959, the Dalai Lama tried to convince the world to help him gain back Tibet's independence.

He won the minds and dreams of the rich and famous and was able to put in the streets, during his FREE TIBET campaign, hosts of American young people that in those years of the "yuppie" culture were lacking a cause, some means of transcendence. Someone said that Tibet had been for those youngsters what the fight against the Vietnam war had been for a previous generation.

The Dalai Lama became thus the champion of Tibetan independence. For most people, that's what he is, still today.

Less publicized were his repeated attempts to reach an agreement with the Chinese.

Practically nobody noticed that, without consulting the Tibetans, all on his own, he had handed Tibet to China. During the 1988 session of the European Parliament, in Strasbourg, France, in the course of a press conference, for the first time he told the Chinese that Tibet could be part of China and retain only autonomy instead of independence.

Pretty soon though the Nobel Peace Prize awarded to the Dalai Lama in 1989 prompted such enthousiasm that his utterances in Strasbourg got lost for the larger Tibetan audiences. The Nobel award gave to Tibetans an immoderate and renewed hope for independence and incapacitated whatever serious opposition could have arisen for several years. The official oracles of the Dalai Lama confirmed those hopes.

But opposition to the Dalai Lama was brewing, unknown to most. The elder brother of the Dalai Lama, Thupten Norbu, a resident of Indiana, USA –who had been the liaison official between the CIA and the Tibetan guerrillas of the sixties– had never approved of the Dalai Lama's reversal about independence.

When the initial fervour for the Nobel Prize started fading and the passing years didn't bring any good news, the grumblings from the elder brother's quarters started acquiring shape and meaning. In 1995 Thupten Norbu publicly broke away from his brother the Dalai Lama in this matter (as stated by Thupten Norbu's son to Indiana journalist Mike Leonard). He co-founded the Tibet Independence Movement and started a series of "Independence Walks". This was an open opposition to his brother the Dalai Lama.

There is no doubt that this opposition, although of small scope at the beginning, would have won wider and wider Tibetan audiences and would have made Tibetans understand the new reality very quickly, instead of allowing it to silently become a "fait accompli" ... This would have been a very big headache for the Dalai Lama in those years.

So even though it does not appear in any document --how would it?-- a simple inference imposes itself. This "breaking away from the Dalai Lama" by his brother in the matter of independence vs. autonomy in 1995 was obviously the trigger of the Dorje Shugden ban in the early months of 1996.

Why?

Because otherwise the Dalai Lama was going to be forced to face his fellow Tibetans and tell them: "Yes, I spoke of democracy, but in this most important of matters I didn't ask your opinion, I just decided myself that Tibet was not going to be independent. I myself alone decided that the hope for independence had to be abandoned. I myself alone decided that we had to satisfy ourselves merely with autonomy. I myself alone decided that Tibet is part of China."

Now, knowing the tremendous emotional ties of Tibetans with the Motherland, it was impossible for the Dalai Lama to talk to them directly in any way about this matter. He had to come up with something.

And it was then and there that his worldly oracles gave him very good political advice: "The worshipping of Dorje Shugden is hurting the Tibetan cause. The worshipping of Dorje Shugden is threatening the health of the Dalai Lama".

The sayings of the oracles have to be translated to political language: "Go ahead and find yourself a scapegoat. Start a campaign against the Protector Deity Dorje Shugden. Stir the innermost fears and frustrations of your people to your advantage. Do anything to distract their minds from the truth --that you, their Dalai Lama, gave up Tibet's independence. Take the heat out of your own person. Find a culprit to blame."

And so he did.

The issue of the Protector was an inner matter of the Gelugpas. It was a matter of dispute between the Dalai Lama and his then fellow Lamas and monks since at least 1975. It took him twenty one years to bring it all of a sudden to the lay Tibetans, to the general public. The ban against the Protector only came –out of the blue– in 1996.

But it was not out of the blue.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 16:44

If anyone wants a good introduction to the early political ambitions of the Dalai Lama and Thupten Norbu, you should check out some of the declassified releases from the US State Department:

http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343...

Douglas Chalmers
27 August 2008 at 16:56

"...a powerful protector..... the Dalai Lama himself must have heard from his teachers who initiated him in the practice..... His criticism of his own teachers comes conveniently at a time when they have all passed away..."

How clever of the Dalai to keep his own Shugden initiation to himself - and to try to keep the supposed powers to himself, also, uhh.

From there, through fear the Tibetan so-called Buddhists can control people with impunity in a society which still holds onto an ancient deity-worship and karma-punishment mentality and a false belief in a heirachical state as a solution to its problems and as a way to deny progress in the material world. Yet another FAKE religion, uhh!

The Great Tantra Challenge - India http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kol01I-Ll2s

"Sanal Edamaruku..... challenged India's most "powerful" tantrik (black magician) to demonstrate his powers on him. That was the beginning of an unprecedented experiment. After all his chanting of mantra (magic words) and ceremonies of tantra failed, the tantrik decided to kill Sanal Edamaruku with the "ultimate destruction ceremony" on live TV. Sanal Edamaruku agreed and sat in the altar of the black magic ritual........

By doing so, Sanal Edamaruku has broken the spell, and has taken away much of the fear of those who witnessed his triumph. In this night, one of the most dangerous and wide spread superstitions in India suffered a severe blow.....

Tantriks are creating such a scaring atmosphere that even people, who know that black magic has no base, can just break down out of fear, commented a scientist during the program. It needs enormous courage and confidence to challenge them by actually putting one’s life at risk, he said....." http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/2008/2008031...

I'm not so sure that "mantra and tantra have no power" but this supposed tantrik priest certainly couldn't manifest anything but meaningless words and ineffectual actions......

dee cani
27 August 2008 at 18:03

Dear all,

This is the teaching of the Buddha: avoid non-virtue; accummulate virtue; subdue your own mind.

On both sides, there is a need to turn our minds towards embodying virtue personally.

Orthodox Jews practice with other Orthodox Jews. Latin-loving Catholics seek out pastors who conduct Mass in Latin. Find those who believe as you do,

and practice your beliefs.

No one can prevent your internal spiritual practice, not even if you are jailed. Each of us can choose our own paths, and walk them with dignity and care. I suggest that the focus be on that. Talking to myself as well, I wish you all complete freedom from suffering, complete happiness, amd say farewell to this forum.

dee cani

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 19:17

I am sorry that dee cani is not going to read this answer. I understand that she cannot face the evidence presented here in this forum.

What she says: --"Orthodox Jews practice with other Orthodox Jews. Latin-loving Catholics seek out pastors who conduct Mass in Latin. Find those who believe as you do, and practice your beliefs. "-- is exactly what the Gelugpa Lamas tried to do many years ago, and see what happened to them: the Dalai Lama started slandering their Protector to end their moral and religious authority inside their own religious comunity.

Decades later he decided to bring this inner Gelugpa topic to the whole of the Tibetan people, making it a matter of government --this time to find a substitute, a scapegoat to take the blame for Tibet being handed back to China.

Since then on he never stopped in his attempt to erase the faithful Gelugpas from the Tibetan community. Those who think that people should go on doing their own practice among themselves do not have any idea of what is going on. We wish!

We wish so much to be left at peace with our practice, our precious teachings. If we appeal to the honest people of this world as witnesses is because we need help. The Dalai Lama has been relentlessin his persecution.

The monks living in New York for instance, who saw their own pictures nailed to the walls of a Tibetan restaurant in Jackson Heights, Queens, New York, with hatred captions accusing them of being Chinese spies, where are they going to go to seek help? They were among the ones who fled India in the first wave of the persecution, in the late nineties, in order to escape the Dalai Lama's wrath, the Tibetan Associations' wrath. Now, persecuted even in the United States, they don't have any other place left where to run, where to hide.

So, Dalai Lama´s folks, we really understand your plight. It's really hard to face what the Dalai Lama, who has been promoted as the ultimate man of peace, has been doing in his backyard for all these years. But facts are there, and the ones suffering are his victims.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 19:53

To become a light in the dark of night, ever mindful that there can be no practice of the Dharma without the practice of virtue; to become a companion to all who are on a journey, ever mindful that there is no human aim higher than to understand the truth; and to become a protector of those without protection, ever mindfulful that the tears of all sentient beings are the tears of all Bodhisattvas past, present, and future.

The Dalai Lama's behavior is contrary to the Bodhisattva Path and I have yet to see a political agenda in which someone doesn't get injured.

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 20:36

It would appear that most westerners overlook the vast gap that exist between themselves and the Mountain Folk of Tibet. For the most part we are in the 21st century and the Tibetans are more akin to the the 15th century of the Taliban.

How can we expect to find common ground with those who do not have modern conveniences, let alone modern thought.

Tibetans have reled exclusively on the clergy to take care of businnes with the 1,000 dieties in the pathenon of Mahayanna Buddhism.

We write and post from our homes and they mix rocks and eggs to ward off unpleasant expectations and blasphemous statements.

The Dalia plays host to his choir or captive population , he locked into their

slave and serf mentality as was exhibited in New York by his followers.

I have no reason myself to believe this Lama has anything of importance to say., As he only lies and Richard Gere and Bob Thurman continue to advise him how to control the media and the populace.

The Wheel Of Dharma is turning to the West as predicted by the Buddha would turn to the land of the Red Men.

The Tibetans are in a no win situation and would be well advised to return to their homeland. Before the Indian Government begins to push them back into their territory. Dalia has become a liability for

the future of India with China. Sooner or later the cost to sustain the Cold War relic will become to costly to maintain any longer, or he will die.

In any event, this lamas trouble making days are coming to an end and sooner than one would think at this moment.

I believe to take the best of this culture and leave the rest of it for the Chinese to absorb into their culture is the coming reality.

Maybe Dorje Shugden will intergrate into China society and maybe he wil not. Who knows?

Dorje Shugden is intergrating into Western Culture and millions will benefit from the Spreading of the Dharma.

The Dalia lying will be his undoing.

Rosie
27 August 2008 at 23:55

There are so many half-truths it is difficult to know where to begin.

I would ask just one question, of Lucy James: you say Dorje Shugden is a Wisdom Buddha. The Dalai Lama says he is not. The Dalai Lama has substantiated his claim, and provided information on his website regarding the history of what he refers to as a spirit practice. Specifically, he has offered autobiographical and personal testimony of the 5th Dalai Lama, who was contemporaneous with Dorje Shugden. You can see this history here:

http://www.dalailama.com/page.133.htm

Would you be so kind as to provide references that would refute this compelling evidence for the birth of the evil spirit "born due to distorted prayers".

To me this sounds like the a story that can't have a happy ending, due to its "bad beginning".

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 00:42

Rosie: the 5th DL is not exactly a vessel of wisdom or compassion. In 1660 he was faced with the rebellion from within the Kagyu sect and dealt with it by calling for the obliteration of the "rebels", including their children... "like eggs smashed against rocks"

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 00:53

Rosie: You might be interested in the history of Bhutan as it relates to the 5th DL's repeated attempts to invade it:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Shabdrung_Ngawang_Namgyal

Geronimo
28 August 2008 at 01:18

Oh it had a Very Happy Begining! You need to review the lineages of these Masters and the Rainbow Stories before man decided to control everything and the rest is Tibetan History. It was just this old sour puss that was unskilled and untrained that tipped the cart due to his anger. jeaulously and greed or " The Three Poisons" afflicted his inability to pray with virtue if anything. Read Toyo Bunko and "The Great 5th history. It is written by Japanese Scholars and is referred to frequently by Ursula Bernis as a source of significance and accuracy. There is also the "Sacred Art Of Tibet"/Tibet House/1991/NY/ page 102 is a painting of three lams painted randomly on a monks robe. Bob Thurman describes this unusual tangka circa.1640-1650 as the soon to be assasinated Dragpa Gyaltsen. The soon to be Panchen Lama and the soon to be Dalia lama. All before the Mongolian Cavalry came into Tibet and slaughtered the new Dalia's opposition. Tibet became a country and the seat of power was built in Lhasa as the Potala became it's Juanta Over Lord for the Mongol_Chinese Empire. That's how I came to understand the truth of his rise to power, The Toyo Bunko and a painting provided by the Tibet House Founder and my Main Friend, H. H. Domo Geshe Rinpoche.

We are dealing with a 350 year old Murder case and the Dalia Lama is the main suspect.

We are conducting a Great Healing on the Dalia Lama. So rest assured we have only his best intentions in our heart and mind. This was told to me by H. H. Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche directly as our mission and purpose. He was poisoned a few year ago as was one of the Dorje Shugden Oracles.

I asked him in 1996 if he intended to hurt the Dalia Lama.

He told me , Thom, "I love the Dalia Lama and would never hurt him" . He showed me a photo of himself and the Dalia holding hands only a month before in New Delhi.

He reiterated many times that the Dalia was sick and we were doing a great healing on him.

I just need to remind myself what's happening to keep myself clear as possible. I forget.

Rosie
28 August 2008 at 03:06

Thank you for your responses.

Dharmakara, are you suggesting that because the 5th DL wasn't a 'nice guy' that his account is untrue?

Geronimo, I have a little trouble following your argument. I appreciate the reference to Bernis, I took a quick look and see that she didn't try to give a detailed history of Dorje Shugden, as the history is disputed. I'll check out the Japanese account.

My main point is that there is a fairly large discrepancy between the 'historical' picture painted in the article above and other accounts. I'm a bit surprised that the New Statesman published a piece written by someone with such a strong investment in the issues and a clearly biased view. This is not best journalistic practice, to put it mildly.

In the West we are strong believers in the separation of church and state, but that is not the way that Tibetan politics and religion have been structured. The history is rough, brutal, perhaps even shocking. But so are stories of Western imperialism. The villifaction of HHDL on the basis that he holds both political and religious power seems bogus (and terribly ethnocentric) to me.

Friendoftruth
28 August 2008 at 03:08

To Rosie and all.

DORJE SHUGDEN

Dorje Shugden is a Protector of the Dharma or Dharmapala. There are innumerable Dharmapalas protecting the Buddhist faith, and this, since the times of the Buddha.

All four schools of Tibetan Buddhism have hundreds of these deities. Their terrifying aspect is directed against inner and outer enemies of the practitioner and we Buddhists are used to their beneficial nature, knowing that they enact a necessary aspect of the Buddha’s compassion.

In a certain way they can be compared to some saints of the Catholic Church, like Saint George, Saint Michael, and other warrior-like holy beings.

In the XIV century c.e. Dorje Shugden appeared as a close disciple of the King of the Dharma Je Tsongkhapa called Dülzin Drakpa Gyaltsen.

In three different life times --starting with that one-- Nechung, Protector of Tibet, appeared to him in the form of a child and requested him to become the special Protector of the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa, which he accepted.

This holy being was born as Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen at the time when the Fifth Dalai Lama initiated the reign of the Dalai Lamas over the Tibetan state. Both men were disciples of the glorious First Panchen Lama.

Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen became a famous and venerated spiritual Master --something that inflamed the jealousy of some characters in the entourage of the Fifth Dalai Lama.

These people, acting on their own initiative, assasinated the holy Master Drakpa Gyaltsen, who arose immediately as a powerful Dharmapala, an emanation of the Wisdom Buddha Mañjushri, as he had promised himself in the past.

THE FIRST EVER

DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONER?

The Fifth Dalai Lama was terrified when this being first manifested his presence, due to his immense power, and for a brief time thought it was some malignant spirit.

The present Dalai Lama and his followers keep on going back to that early moment of the Fifth Dalai Lama's relation to the Protector.

They forget to talk though about came next.

When the Fifth Dalai Lama realized who that awesome being was, he immediately composed inspired prayers to him, thus becoming probably the first ever Dorje Shugden practitioner.

Until the end of his life the Fifth Dalai Lama venerated Dorje Shugden. He built for him a temple that still exists today in Lhasa: Trode Khangsar.

He entrusted two different monasteries with his devotion, giving them the prayers that he himself composed. These monasteries have been practicing for almost four centuries, and still keep today the statues that the Fifth Dalai Lama himself sculpted of the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden.

We, the faithful Gelugpas that didn't forsake the holy Dharmapala, still recite the prayers composed by the Fifth Dalai Lama.

Thus started the actions of Dorje Shugden, and thus we practitioners started receiving his help and doing prayers to him, following today the example of the one that the Tibetans call the great Fifth Dalai Lama.

Lucy James
28 August 2008 at 03:33

dear Rosie,

Thank you for asking me your question.

I'll start with the 14th Dalai Lama's own words. As you may or may not know, for the first half of his life the Dalai Lama relied upon Dorje Shugden, indeed taking a life commitment to do so. During this time, he wrote the following praise to Dorje Shugden.

Melody of the Unceasing Vajra

A Request-Prayer to Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden,

Protector of the Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa's Teachings

By the Supreme Victor, the Great 14th Dalai Lama

HUM

Glory of the wisdom, compassion and power of infinite Buddhas,

Miraculously powerful protector of Manjusri Tsongkhapa's Teachings,

Arisen as a lord of all wrathful worldly hosts,

Come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara, and so forth!

Prostrating with devotion of body, speech, and mind,

I confess all mistakes and faults in which,

Out of delusion, I have contradicted your holy mind:

Accept with forbearance and show your smiling face!

Arising from the sport of non-dual bliss and emptiness,

Are offerings and torma of flesh and blood heaped like a mountain,

First portions of milk, yogurt, beer and tea swirling like the ocean,

Auspicious signs and substances and various animals,

Peaceful and wrathful ornaments, inner-enemy-destroying weapons and armour,

Amassed samaya substances, outer, inner, and secret, without exception!

Having fulfilled your heart commitment and purified degeneration,

By making these actually arranged and visualized offerings,

Increase Lozang the Victorious One's Teachings,

And the life span and activities of the Teachings' upholders!

Further the happiness of beings in the Gaden [Podrang] dominion!

Especially pacify all harm to us, the yogis and entourages,

That arises because of previous karma and immediate conditions,

And spontaneously accomplish, just as we wish,

All good things, both spiritual and temporal!

Grind to dust without remainder

The hordes of delusions that cause perverse perceptions and actions

Towards the teachings and lay and ordained people

With potent, accurate, powerful great vajra fire!

Especially, cause the saffron-clad community of Dungkar Monastery,

Brightly beautiful in bonds of pure morality,

To soar the path of immortal liberation

On unified wings of Sutra and Tantra!

In brief, we enthrone you, O Deity, as the supreme

Collected nature of all Gurus and Protective Deities!

From densely gathered clouds of the four activities

Pour down a cool rain of the two siddhis!

This, a Request-Prayer to Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, Protector of the Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa's Teachings entitled Melody of the Unceasing Vajra's composition was urged, not only by the vajra prophecy of the great emanated Dharmapala himself, but also on behalf of the general community by the master of the Dungkar Dratsang and all of its officers, with offerings. Accordingly, the one called Holder Of The White Lotus, Bearer of the Buddhadharma, Ngawang Losang Tenzin Gyatso Sisum Wangyur Tsungpa Mepay De composed it at Dungkar Monastery with spontaneous auspiciousness.

Lucy James
28 August 2008 at 03:44

Rosie,

The following is what I believe as a Dorje Shugden practitioner who has relied upon this beautiful Buddha Protector for 27 years, with wonderful results (the old joke -- you should have seen me when I started!) To me, it is not terribly relevant what the Dalai Lama believes as it is at odds with my own and millions of others' experiences (past and present).

I also do not believe that there could ever be any valid grounds to ban a spiritual tradition, however hard you want to argue -- this runs directly against the constitution of India, for example, which prohibits Deity discrimination (and is of course anathema to freedom of religion in the West).

Anyway, you asked, so here is what I believe (and I take it from my own Spiritual Guide's teaching in Heart Jewel) .You can find the rest of this explanation here: http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden-about2....

The highly realized Master Tagpo Kelsang Khädrub Rinpoche composed the following two verses concerning Dorje Shugden:

With deep faith I prostrate to you, Vajradhara Dorje Shugden.

Although you have already attained the Buddha ground

And engage in the twenty-seven deeds of a Buddha, You appear in various forms to help the Buddhadharma and sentient beings.

You have manifested in different aspects

As Indian and Tibetan Masters,

Such as Manjushri, Mahasiddha Biwawa, Sakya Pandita, Butön Rinchen Drub, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsän, Panchen Sönam Dragpa, and many others.

The meaning of the first verse is quite clear. The twenty-seven deeds of a Buddha are explained in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras and in the eighth chapter of Maitreya's Ornament for Clear Realizations. These twenty-seven deeds range from showing sentient beings the way to enter the spiritual path to liberation up to guiding them to the final attainment of Buddhahood. Since Dorje Shugden performs all these twenty-seven deeds it is clear that he is a Buddha.

To guide living beings along the spiritual path, Dorje Shugden manifests many different aspects. Sometimes he appears in a peaceful aspect, sometimes in a wrathful aspect, sometimes as an ordained person, sometimes as a lay person, sometimes as a Bodhisattva, sometimes as a Hinayanist, sometimes as a non-Buddhist, and sometimes even as a non-human. Since there are so many different emanations of the Buddhas it is difficult to tell who is an emanation and who is not. The only person we can be certain about is ourself; we know whether we are a sentient being or a Buddha, but we do not know about others.

Each Buddha has the ability to manifest as many emanations as there are living beings. This ability is necessary because if Buddhas remained in only one form, without any emanations, they would not be able to help all living beings according to their different needs. Thus, if we refuse to believe that a Buddha can have many different emanations, we are indirectly holding the wrong view of denying that Buddhas can help all living beings. In the Meeting of Father and Son Sutra Buddha Shakyamuni says:

Buddhas manifest in many different aspects such as Brahma, Indra, and sometimes even as a mara or in the aspect of an evil person, but worldly people do not recognize these emanations.

Buddhas can emanate even as inanimate objects.

As Tagpo Kelsang Khädrub Rinpoche said, Dorje Shugden has manifested in many different forms to help living beings. There now follows a brief account of each of the past incarnations of Dorje Shugden mentioned in the verse quoted above.

So, to see this account of his previous incarnations, please do look at the link I sent you above or read the book Heart Jewel. I think this answers your question, if you were genuinely seeking an answer. I hope so anyway. Thank you.

Tenzin
28 August 2008 at 03:57

Hey Rosie, you say you're "a bit surprised that the New Statesman published a piece written by someone with such a strong investment in the issues ..." But this is a blog, not a journalist's account. At the top of the page, it says "Every week a different believer gives the inside track on their religion or philosophy."

You say "In the West we are strong believers in the separation of church and state, but that is not the way that Tibetan politics and religion have been structured."

Yes, I agree!!

"The history is rough, brutal, perhaps even shocking. But so are stories of Western imperialism."

Two wrongs do not make a right, do they? Wouldn't it actually be great if the rough, brutal and shocking behaviour toward Dorje Shugden practitioners could stop?

"The villifaction of HHDL on the basis that he holds both political and religious power seems bogus (and terribly ethnocentric) to me."

There is nothing etnocentric about it! I think if the Pope was also elected to be President (to take just one example), or if the Archbishop was also the Prime Minister, plenty of people would be making a very big fuss about it! If the Dalai Lama abuses his political and religious power, there is nothing bogus whatsoever about calling him up on it. Where does it say that the Dalai Lama is above the law?

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 04:15

Dear Rosie,

No, I was suggesting that his position was tainted by many factors, influenced by the politics of the time. If history has taught us anything, is that humankind has the tendency to view its own particular culture, society and tradition through a tinted glass, one which is more likely to distort than give us a clear picture --- no culture or society has ever been immune to this.

In such light, it might be best to examine the history from outside of both positions --- in other words, look for an academic sources and history books which addresses the events of the region and era, where particular traditions have had little or no influence.

This would also be in keeping with the Kalama Sutta, looking outside of our tradition and/or perceptions of it --- "Vibhajja vada" (one who analyses) is another name for a Buddhist.

Within the Tibetan tradition there is a dependency on approved literature and translations specific to the tradition, nothing outside of it --- I have always looked at this position as a hinderance or an obstacle to preserving Buddhist heritage because no tradition should withstand historical fact.

Douglas Chalmers
28 August 2008 at 06:18

#Lucy James, 27 August: “Dorje Shugden practitioners don’t care about Tibet” is another accusation we hear... Apparently, Dorje Shugden is a “Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong in the Tibetan government..."

Its more like the DL's Buddhists don't care about Buddhism because they continuously support independence, separatism and the violent overthrow of the government in Tibet SAR. The incident in March with the vicious rock-throwing young so-called Buddhists monks incited the riots in Lhasa soon after.

Further, both the DL and many Tibetans support violence as "permissible" as long as it suits them. They only issue for them is that they know they can't get away with it with the Chinese. Two interesting statements on this video series, "The CIA in Tibet", that 'pretend' Buddhists should watch:-

*Tibetan man: "My father would tell us the Communist Chinese were enemies of Buddhism so, since they were enemies of Buddhism, we never felt that it was a sin to kill them..... in fact, we were happy to kill as many as we could. When we kill an animal, we say a prayer - but when we killed a Chinese, no prayer came to our lips....."

*HH Dalai Lama (at 4min 50+): "Although it is basically a Buddhist belief, if moderation is good and the goal is good, then method, err..... even of an apparently violent kind, is permissible..... could be possible. But, then, in our situation, in our case, whether it is practical or not, that is the big question....."

So there you have it, "do what thou wilt" or "do as you like" is OK by Tibetan separatists whenever it is "practical". In other words, they have learnt NOTHING from Buddhism and they have NOT really even ever put their feet upon Buddha's 'path to Enlightenment'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOhDBo6x2ZY

But then, the DL manages to have a bet both ways with another statement which can be split and re-interpreted to suit peoples' whims - and latterly, he also erroneously links separatism with Buddhism as a kind of pre-condition that, if you want to study Buddhism with us, you have to advocate separatism also. These are actually the demands and imperatives of a radical cult:-

*Ewa Kedzierska (interviewing): "Methods to obtain whatever from China can be violent or non-violent. As a Buddhist, you are, Your Holiness, sincerely committed to Non-violence. However, the definition of this word should be clarified. Can You explain, Your Holiness, what, from the Buddhist point of view, violence is? Is a legitimate self-defence a violence? Does non reaction to a permanent violence not legitimate violence somehow? In what cases, following the Buddha’s teachings, violence is admitted?"

*H.H. the Dalai Lama: - "Theoretically speaking Yes, violence or non-violence are methods. The motivation and the result are more important than the methods. So theoretically speaking, under certain circumstances violence could be possible or permissible. But then in practical level violence is always dangerous and negative. For me I feel it is absolutely essential not to go with violence. If things become desperate, majority of the people want violence, I will withdraw, resign..."

*Ewa: "They are waiting to be free, to fight."

*His Holiness the Dalai Lama: - "Yes! But I don’t think this is a right solution. But after all, the Tibetan issue is the Tibetan people’s issue, not my issue, automatically if they really want to follow violence – they will do...!"

*Ewa: "Your Holiness, what would you say to the Western "Buddhists" for whom the Tibetan political issue is completely distant from the religion, which they have so enthusiastically adopted?"

*H.H. the Dalai Lama: "Oh, that is wrong! Tibetan freedom is very much linked with the Tibetan Buddhism. Without Tibetan freedom, the Tibetan Buddhism cannot survive..." http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?article=INTERVIEW+WITH+HIS+HOLINESS+THE+DALAI+LAMA&id=16202&c=5&t=1

Thus we must look to the actions of Buddhist monks in Burma/Myanmar, not Tibet, for a real appreciation of Ahimsa and non-violence, these days. They have also demonstrated bravery and self-sacrifice in caring for their people whilst the Tibetans have merely demonstrated selfishness and arrogance and self-righteousness in disrupting affairs within Tibet and endlessly exhorting Westerners to attack or to criticize China despite the improvements Han Chinese have brought to Tibet .

But, as far as "...a Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong...", lets also remember that Tibetans appoint Tulku(s) like the Dalai Lama amongst themselves, not the Han Chinese. They have more recently appointed Tulku amongst Westerners and apparently also with the Mongolians in the past when they once ruled. This, then, is yet another political ploy to cultivate popularity and favor to their own advantage but to deliberately wall off their Han relatives as suits their own pet prejudices and hatreds and aversions.

forgotten
28 August 2008 at 06:29

Is anyone a real Tibetan in this discussion and is Geronimo a real Indian.

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 06:49

Forgotten: What is a Tibetan? What is an Indian?What is real? What is self?

Find a tree and sit.

taghioff.info
28 August 2008 at 10:12

I cannot help thinking that this whole discussion is about over-attachment to the forms of various traditions, and actually has sweet FA to do with Dharma.

I was brought up in a buddhist household, and worked out fairly early on the that the core of Buddhist philosophy is a very deep seated version of agnosticism, of non attachment to the particularities of form, as a vehicle towards insight into how events are driven by complex inter-relationships.

I concluded that in order to be true to what I had learnt about buddhism, I had to firstly avoid labelling myself as a buddhist.

So, OK, the politics in the Shugden thing is interesting, if only because it shows a total loss of perspective. Thoughts only have as much power as we give them.

Dharmakara
28 August 2008 at 10:27

Exactly! What's Buddhism? What's Buddhist? (LOL)

whiteroha
28 August 2008 at 12:53

I realise that this is an obscure issue and people are easily confused, but can we please ask ourselves a few simple questions?

1. Has the Dalai Lama imprisoned or ordered violence against Shugden followers for practising their freedom of worship?

2. Has the Dalai Lama even condoned any kind of secular punishment or reprisals against Shugden followers?

The answer to both questions is clearly no. All the Dalai Lama has said is that he, as the leader of the religious establishment of the Gelugpa order of Tibetan Buddhism, has a responsibility and right to make rules for it. These rules prohibit Shugden worship. Shugden followers are free to worship, but not within the context of Gelugpa tradition.

The position of Dorje Shugden followers within Gelugpa Buddhism should be seen as nearly exactly analogous to the position of Masons within Catholicism. Catholics who become Masons are automatically excommunicated. The Pope is believed to be a strong supporter of this policy. There is no suggestion that this is a human rights issue. It is a disagreement in which the Pope, and Catholics, are on one side, and a small minority of Catholics who would like the freedom to belong to both organisations are on the other.

In summary, Lucy James and other people who make unjustified attacks on the Dalai Lama should not be taken seriously.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 13:34

whiteroha -

i was just about to start - again - writing a long-winded refutation of yet *another* completely incorrect and uniformed comment, but then i just couldn't bring myself to do it.

i'm sorry, but i cannot believe your ignorance is genuine and your motivation is good.

if it is, then i sincerely apologise for questioning you, and i beg you - please - go educate yourself. read up - with an open mind - on the overwhelming, vast and growing body of evidence proving the Dalai Lama's harmful actions and their effects on the worldwide Buddhist community. we are NOT making anything up. the irrefutable evidence is out there for all with eyes to see.

on the other hand, if, as i suspect, you're just being disingenuous and deceptive, then for the love of truth - STOP IT. do some purification practice, and get real: NEITHER YOU, NOR THE DALAI LAMA, CAN HIDE THE TRUTH, regardless of how many of you keep trying.

the truth is out there, and sooner or later the world will see this man and his ban for what they really are.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 13:36

oops: that'll be "uninformed", not "uniformed".

tho' all these types of post ARE pretty uniform...

Geronimo
28 August 2008 at 18:22

The Teachings

Of

Manjunatha

Lord Je Tsongkapa

Is

The Holy Grail

"Shambala's Confederation

of

Shugden's Vajra Warriors"

The Buddha Dharma Will Flourish

and

Brave and Honorable Citizens

With

Discriminating Wisdom

Will

Safeguard Our Rights to Freedom

&

The Dharma

Tsongkapa's Council Of Vajra Elders

OM VAJRA WICKI WITRANA SO HA

"Now I am free to practice openly"

As Provided Within

US Constitution and The Bill Of Rights

&

Indian Constitution

&

United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance

Geronimo
28 August 2008 at 18:52

This Dalia lama is not the elected head of anything and has no rights to determine the destiny of anyone, other than himself.

Tibetan Buddhism will recede and a new Buddhism is arising in the West.

A Buddhism protected by the Laws of a Free Society. Not anchored in the past with a medieval theocratic dictatorial potentate of the Dalia Lama lineage.

No longer will any Buddhist Practioner suffer under the whims of a single person's will.

We do not need any authoritarian Lama's approval to believe as we please.

We have cut the ties to the Old World and are free to turn the Wheel Of Dharma.

We are free to express our Love and Compassion.

Without interference from anyone.

Each and every one of us stand individually.

We all Stand Together as One.

Our beliefs are not confused with the Idol Worshipping of another human being as our faith.

We do not take refuge in sentient beings.

We are Free to believe as we choose.

We are free to fight anyone who attempt to steal or interfere with our freedoms.

Do Not Tread On Me!

Lubov
29 August 2008 at 06:57

whiteroha,

view http://www.france24.com/en/20080808-dalai-lama-demons-india-...

1. Has the Dalai Lama imprisoned or ordered violence against Shugden followers for practising their freedom of worship? are you serious? they can't get food, travel or practise freely.

2. Has the Dalai Lama even condoned any kind of secular punishment or reprisals against Shugden followers? YES

Tara

Tibet for Tibetans
29 August 2008 at 12:24

::KNOWN SHUGDEN CULT MEMBERS ON WANTED LIST::

Known Shugden cult members, Lobsang Chodak & Tenzil Choezim are listed on the C.B.I (Indian equivalent of the F.B.I) WANTED LIST: (see CBI Website Wanted List), in connection to the triple murder of Geshe Lobsang and two students. The CBI state that the two have sought refuge with the Chinese Government in Tibet.

Amnesty International on Dorje Shugden

(AI, USA | June 1998)

Amnesty International (AI) has received and studied a large amount of material alleging human rights abuses against worshippers of the Tibetan Buddhist deity Dorje Shugden. These alleged abuses are reported to have happened largely in Tibetan settlements in India. None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses. AI campaigns on the grave violations of human rights in Tibet.

EXTRACT FROM AMNESTY REPORT

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 14:26

hey, t4t -

"Known Shugden cult members" - known by whom?

AI found no evidence of "grave violations of human rights" in this instance which, by their measure, means WRONGFUL IMPRISONMENT, TORTURE OR UNLAWFUL KILLING. that they found nothing that falls into these categories and therefore within their chosen means NOTHING in relation to whether human rights abuses that fall OUTSIDE their chosen remit have been committed.

Amnesty International does not campaign for religious freedom, unless the restriction of this freedom involves any of the gross violatioons listed above.

you know this. stop posting this rubbish in order to deceive.

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 15:03

t4t -

the CBI Wanted List on the website you mention contains no reference to Shugden whatsoever.

theloneranger
29 August 2008 at 23:11

Here are two questions for you the Dalai Lama's followers to answer:-

Question1 :- Is it ok for the Chinese to suppress Tibetans for following the Dalai Lama? Yes or No?

Question2 :- Is it ok for the Dalai Lama to suppress Tibetans for following Dorje Shugden? Yes or No?

If you answer Yes and Yes, this is okay, your views are extreme and you have no respect for religious freedom but theres no contradiction.

If you answer No and No, this is also ok, you have a compassionate view and a respect for religious freedom and there is again no contradiction.

If you answer No and Yes, this is not good, you have contradicting viewpoints and double standards!

Speeches by Dalai Lama on Dorje Shugden ban!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqsrHiSa7Zc

Lucy James
30 August 2008 at 04:38

By the way, if Geezer appears on this blog with his spam, as he has on the other blogs, I think the best way to deal with him (and other trolls or spammers) is probably just to report them to the New Statesman. It says on their contact page:

To report comments on articles or to make a complaint about New Statesman content please email: comments@newstatesman.co.uk

Douglas Chalmers
30 August 2008 at 08:05

#Meindert Gorter: "...back in Tibet, the only role left for him would be a religious one. He could be the humble monk he has always claimed to be, but does he really have it in him? Or is he harbouring ambitions to become the religious leader he never was..... His dual role allows him to stop being a politician and the suffering of the Tibetans in exile ends' but the Dalai Lama seems set on leading them back as the dogmatic Buddhist pope that he never was..."

Wow, well, the last thing the world needs is yet another Neocon pope..... and the Catholic pope has already quietly gotten it on with the CCP and is doing just fine. Thus, the Tibetans have been caught lagging behind (again, duh) but a Buddhist "pope" who has also accepted selling his soul just as his predecessors once did to the Mongolians for the sake of temporal power and position will ever be their lapdog. Who cares?

Instead of responding further, may I simply quote the founder of Aikido and author of "The Art of Peace".....?:-

"The Art of Peace is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions.....

The Path is exceedingly vast. From ancient times to the present day, even the greatest sages were unable to perceive and comprehend the entire truth; the explanation and teachings of masters and saints express only part of the whole. It is not possible for anyone to speak of such things in their entirety. Just head for the light and heat, learn from the gods, and through the virtue of devoted practice of the Art of Peace, become one with the Divine.....

The divine beauty Of heaven and earth! All creation, Members of One family. If you have not Linked yourself To true emptiness, You will never understand The Art of Peace.....

Eight forces sustain creation: Movement and stillness, Solidification and fluidity, Extension and contraction, Unification and division.....

Do not fail To learn from The pure voice of an Ever-flowing mountain stream Splashing over the rocks. The penetrating brilliance of swords Wielded by followers of the Way Strikes at the evil enemy Lurking deep within Their own souls and bodies Crystal clear, Sharp and bright, The sacred sword Allows no opening For evil to roost.....

To practice properly the Art of Peace, you must:-

Calm the spirit and return to the source.

Cleanse the body and spirit by removing all malice, selfishness, and desire.

Foster and polish The warrior spirit While serving in the world;

Illuminate the path According to your inner light..."

http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/osensei/artofpeace/

Douglas Chalmers
30 August 2008 at 08:08

Actually, my preceding post was in response to the authors' "Will the Dalai Lama return to Tibet?" topic which is the final in the series but it is also appropriate here as this is all really about blaming China anyway. Ref. Meindert Gorter at http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/08/d...

Lyara
30 August 2008 at 20:53

Whenever the Dalai Lama is questioned, the smear campaign against the NKT kicks into full gear. For a refutation of the allegations against it quoted above, please see

http://www.NewKadampaTruth.org

Thank you.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 05:15

Douglas Chalmers (a.k.a. Dick Charmer, Southern Swan, Fong of the Inland) is an online pariah who has spilled his bile and poor behavior on several other websites, including Get Up blogs, where the following advice in regard to him was offered: "Just ignore him. I wish he would get the mental health care that he so desperately needs."

He could also be this "Geezer" character because it appears that Chalmers also talks to his other personalities that he creates.

If you ever encounter him, please follow Tenzin's lead and report him to the blog/comments moderator of the site.

Khedrup7
02 September 2008 at 02:01

The NKT's depiction of Shugden as a benevolent god of love is very far from the truth. His evolution as a deity is far more complex than this, and in order to fully comprehend it we need to examine a variety of views.

Firsty, I recommend investigating HH Sakya Trizin's statement about Shugden. It is his tradition which first propitiated this deity, though not as a Buddha, as a mundane spirit,

Secondly, "The Shuk-Den Affair, Origins of a Controversy" also examines the politics behind the "promotion" of a spirit-guardian to a fully enlightened Buddha.

Khedrup7
02 September 2008 at 02:03

Thirdly, there are many photos of two Shugden Lamas with PRC officials - Kundeling Losang Yeshe at the Chinese embassy. And a widely circulated photo of Gangchen Lama with the PRC selected Panchen Lama (the selection of the Tibetan people has dissappeared).

While it is dangerous to say that all Shugden practitioners have ties with China, it is clear that many do. On one recent blog I read, a Shugden supporter proudly stated he was going to Beijing to recruit people to protest against HH Dalai Lama.

Friendoftruth
02 September 2008 at 04:59

Dear K7,

What do you know about the holy Buddha Protector Dorje Shugden? What the Dalai Lama's people want you to know. I am sorry for your having only that source of information.

But it's totally irrelevant what you or me or the Dalai Lama's helpers from the world of Academia think of the nature of the Deity.

What is relevant is that the Dalai Lama is persecuting

the practitioners. This goes against many laws, it goes against the human rights of many people. This is what we are talking about here.

Speaking of ties with China, be careful with your sayings. The Dalai Lama recently expressed his profound desire to see Tibet go back to what he called "Mother China".

Since the Strasbourg Parliament session of 1988, the Dalai Lama gave up Tibet's independence. So yours and the Tibetan government in exile's convenient accusations of this or that people dealings with China are in this context entirely irrelevant.

Unhappily they only serve to slander innocent religious people and to fan the hatred of poor unhappy Tibetans around the world.

I beg you and the Tibetan government to show some compassion for all of them. Stop the slander, stop the persecution. Please!

Dougal
02 September 2008 at 17:45

"But it's totally irrelevant what you or me or the Dalai Lama's helpers from the world of Academia think of the nature of the Deity.

What is relevant is that the Dalai Lama is persecuting the practitioners."

absolutely right.

rights and wrongs of the practice we can make our own minds up about, and leave the academics to their scholarly deliberations.

persecution of others on religious (or any) grounds is *never* right. everyone can understand this.

Geronimo
03 September 2008 at 17:53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZhczLKMZck

"Wally Lama" cartoon

echo
05 September 2008 at 10:46

I find it interesting that the term ‘Chinese’ in this context is used as a slur against critics of the Dalai Lama.

The Dalai Lama and his government-in-exile willingly accepted the support of the American government while the latter was supporting murderous regimes abroad and failing to tackle racial injustice at home. Surely this implies the Dalai Lamas’s tacit acceptance of these policies, for no man of genuine peace and compassion would countenance support from a government whose policies he disagreed with? Yet I do not remember hearing the phrase ‘American Imperialist’ being applied to the Dalai Lama. Also the phrases ‘unelected’, ‘dictatorial power’ and ‘rule by decree’ are also remarkably absent from descriptions of the Dalai Lama though they are technically correct.

No-one would question the abysmal Chinese record on human rights. However, the Dalai Lama himself is currently being pursued through the Indian High Court for breaching constitutional freedoms. Further, UN figures on population growth, infant mortality and life expectancy in Tibet before and after the Dalai Lama’s departure would reveal that to use 'Chinese' as a blanket criticism is hardly justified as clearly there have been undeniable benefits from the Chinese presence in Tibet as well as the negatives.

Is it not really a case of the kettle calling the pot black in a crude, simplistic and desperate attempt to stifle legitimate debate and dissent?

thermostatic
05 September 2008 at 21:07

A few examples of where religion and politics are not separated: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Afghanistan to 2001.........Does being culturally different to the West make it acceptable to invoke religion to justify oppression and terror? So it's OK for the Dalai Lama to mix political and religious roles? It's just a cultural difference? Add DL to the above list of quasi-theocrats The Dalai Lama has some very dubious bed-fellows.

Mind you, I do remember him and Margaret Thatcher pleading amnesty for their 'friend' ( DL's word) General Pinochet, the Butcher of Chile. As the post above points out (thank you) the CIA was bankrolling both Pinochet and the DL at the same time.

Orange
06 September 2008 at 05:43

Mala,

From one point of view there are only a few Tibetans in the WSS protest pen, the majority is western, but from a Tibetan perspective even just one Tibetan in the WSS pen is a lot.

Any idea how much courage it takes for the Tibetans in the pen?

I think that, despite the best efforts of the DL, the majority of the Shugden supporters actually still is Tibetan, and that they are devastated about the situation. Sadly, the majority is too afraid to join the protests. However, every now and again a covert gesture or words of gratitude trickle through to WSS members.

The other thing to consider is that Shugden practitioners these days are portrayed as a minority cult - when the practice was rather common in the Tibetan community, both in Tibet and in exile. Compared to the number of Tibetan practitioners the number of western practitioners is rather small, i would think. the westerners just happen to be in the position to speak up without fear.

Anyway - thought i'd throw this into the mix here because the point that the WSS is mainly westerners is misinterpreted in too many other blogs already.

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 13:05

Over the past 400 years High Sakya and Gelug Lamas (including the Dalai Lama's tutor Trijiang Rinpoche - who has written extensive commentaries on the practice of Dorje Shudgen and still continues to practice Dorje Shugden in his current incarnation) have been devout Dorje Shugden practitioners. These Lamas are beyond samsara, Bodhisattvas who incarnate repeatedly in human form to lead us out of samsara. They are not concerned about politics but with the ultimate liberation from samsara- the cycle of suffering. Were they worshipping an evil spirit?

Dorje Shudgen is regarded by his practitioners as the same mental continuum of Wisdom Buddha of Manjushiri and JesongKhapa. If you look at the form of Dorje Shudgen - he reveals the complete path to enlightenment.

He wears a monks robes to indicate pure moral discipline is the foundation for spiritual path, his wisdom sword indicates the need to cut through self grasping ignorance -the root of samsara, his heart of compassion which he holds in his right hand , indicates his conventional Bodhichitta, the snow lion he rides on indicates the four fearlessness of a Buddha and so forth. Simply meditating on the Mandala of Dorje Shugden and his form can lead to many realisations of Sutra and tantra such as renunciation, compassion and emptiness. I know this from personal experience, because I am a Dorje Shudgen practitioner. How can a deity that reveals the complete path to enlightenment be an evil spirit! Once again a logical fallacy. Also Buddha's doctrine on emptiness teaches us that whether someone is a Buddha or a Mara is entirely dependent on our minds.

The HH Dalai Lama has given two reasons for banning the practice of Dorje Shugden;

a) It affects his life and well-being b)it affects the Tibetan cause. If Dorje Shudgen is really is an 'evil spirit/demon/worldly god' how can it affect the HH Dalai Lama - who is said to be the incarnation of Buddha Avalokiteshvara. When BuddhaShayamuni was about to attain enlightenment, Devaputra mara tried to obstruct his spiritual progress by throwing weapons at him but Buddha transformed the weapons into flowers through his meditation on love. After-all the HH Dalai Lama is said to be an enlightened being- the Buddha of Compassion. Why can't he do the same? Buddha has taught that for a Buddhist there are no external enemies simply our internal enemies of delusions and this applies to the so called 'evil spirits' (if that is what the Dalai Lama regards Dorje Shugden to be) - who were once our mothers too.

To be fair to the Dalai Lama, he has never self- proclaimed that he is an enlightened being. He is in reality a politician (a skilful -one at that too )using his spiritual authority for political and worldly aims. I am sure his oracle Nechug (who is infact a worldly spirit and well- known for getting predictions wrong - such as Tibet will be free in 2000) has had a large part to play in this. In fact there are sources that reveal that it is through Nechug's influence the HH Dalai Lama's mind towards the englightened Dorje Shugden changed. Afterall - it is with Dorje Shugden's help that the Dalai Lama escaped from Tibet and Dalai Lama himself was a devout practitioner of Dorje Shugden until the age of 50.

Just because someone opposes the Dalai Lama's actions of destroying many people's spiritual lives does not mean they are in league with the Chinese. Making the link between the two is an undoubtable logical fallacy and a result of propaganda. What the Chinese have done to the Tibetan people is despicable to say the least. However, although they may have harmed and killed Tibetans, they never destroyed the unity of the Tibetans nor their rich spiritual heritage. The ban against the practise of Dorje Shugden instigated by the Dalai Lama has done exactly this. Tibetans are turning on Tibetans. This is really sad and heart breaking. (If you are unsure of what I am talking about - please watch the documentary called 'the dalai Lama and dorje Shudgen' in You tube)

History tells us that politics and religion never mix and what is happening is a clear indication of why they don't.

Love and prayers.

shaza
06 September 2008 at 16:42

Lucy James - "As you may or may not know, for the first half of his life the Dalai Lama relied upon Dorje Shugden, indeed taking a life commitment to do so."

The Dalai Lama made offerings to Shugden from 1951 to early 70's.

He refused to take the life-entrustment initiation from Trijang Rinopoche. So there's no life commitment as it is with GKG.

Chevi - "Over the past 400 years High Sakya and Gelug Lamas (including the Dalai Lama's tutor Trijiang Rinpoche - who has written extensive commentaries on the practice of Dorje Shudgen and still continues to practice Dorje Shugden in his current incarnation) have been devout Dorje Shugden practitioners. "

A gross exaggeration.

And Trijang's commentary does not withstand much scrutiny.

Best

Shaza

thermostatic
06 September 2008 at 17:24

I thought this blog was about DL critics and China, not "life-entrustment initiations", whatever they might be. This is the modern world not feudal Tibet. And in the modern world there is no place for dictators appointed through divination, which is what the DL is. Can anyone honestly take the way the DL was chosen seriously? Seriously? Come on. This is 2008. Over the centuries millions have gives their lives in the fight for democracy and freedom. And this guy is given authority on the basis of superstition, oracles and dreams?

The only reasons he has such influence is the backing he got from the CIA (anti-Chinese) and the fact that sentimentalist Westerners cant take two disappointments in life. The first was that there is no Father Christmas.

The questions are simple: do the DL and his supporters believe in democracy or not? Secondly, are his critics tarred as pro-Chinese because it makes good propaganda to say all the DL critics must be in league with each other. And that is so simplistic it is insulting to anyone but a DL fanatic.

shaza
06 September 2008 at 17:55

Hi Thermostatic,

Yes back to topic.

About DL's critics...i don't see any evidence that NKT is backed by China. Not yet.

But other Shugden heads like Kundeling Lama (Meindert Gorter's teacher) and Lama Gangchen have good relations with the Chinese.

In the French24 documentary, Kundeling Lama denied he was backed by China but did not deny he had Chinese “friends”.

In order to ridicule the Dalai Lama's "autocratic regime", Kundeling even apologised for the CCP’s crimes in Tibet, saying it was not as severed as it was in mainland China.

I supposed he was trying to be objective here.

He says, ‘political revolution without mistake is impossible.’

NKTers certainly don't agree with him, or do they?

Best

Shaza

thermostatic
06 September 2008 at 19:36

Hi Shaza - For me to accuse someone as being backed by the Chinese is no different than being backed by the USA. Both have appalling human rights records. The Americans orchestrated the overthrow of virtually every legitimate goverment in Latin America and replaced them with military dictaorships. There is proof the Dalai Lama was backed by the CIA for much of the same period. However is there any such proof of financial or intelligence support for the Dalai Lama's critics by the Chinese? In any event, as a realist, I have no problem with some Lama having good relations with the Chinese. It's what everybody wants these days, just as they do with the Americans. CCP or CIA - take your pick! I dont think the NKT are even in this ball game. The whole Shugden thing is a diversion probably cooked up by some CIA field officer in the India station to prop up their puppet.

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 21:19

Shaza: I have taken an extraxt from Trijiang Rinpoche's comentaries to Dorje Shugden practice the 'Music Delighting the Ocean Of Protectors'.

For those of who don't know he is, Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang (1901-1981) is most the most important Gelugpa Masters of our present time and the Root Guru of most Gelugpa Lamas alive today, including the Dalai Lama. He relied upon Dorje Shugden as his Protector until his death. His current incarnation who lives in Switzerland continues to practice Dorje Shugden as he has done in previous lives.

This is what he has to say about Dorje Shugden (taken from 'Music delighting the ocean of protectors');

"Some, who have fallen under the influence of the demon of the partisanship, think and say that this supreme Deity, the great emanated Dharmapala, is no different than an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit who has an inferior form as a result of being a monk or lay person who died with bad karma. Leave aside relying upon him as a Protector, they even deride others who do so. There are some, indeed, who echo such claims knowing nothing about it.

"Yet all this talk is nothing but babbling speculation. Why? Because this great guardian of the teachings is well known to be the precious supreme emanation from Drepung monastery'supper house, Dragpa Gyaltsen, arising in a wrathful aspect. The proof is unmistaken. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, as is taught in the lineage, was the final birth in a reincarnation lineage that included the Mahasiddha Birwawa, the great Kashmiri Pandit Shakya Shri, the omniscient Buton, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and so forth; this is proven by valid scriptural quotation and reasoning. These great beings, from a definitive point of view, were already fully enlightened, and even to common appearances, every one of them was a holy being that attained high states of realization. What worse karma could there be than denying this and asserting that he was born in the preta (spirit) realm?

'Therefore, for holy beings it is not at all far-fetched that they might show themselves in a wrathful form out of the power of compassion and prayer for the sake of a special purpose, and it should be recognized that they are emanations of Buddha's inconceivable secret qualities. But for them to take birth as a sky-wandering preta through the force of negative throwing karma like an ordinary preta would be utterly impossible. To say it were possible would be to deny the validity of the natural law of cause and effect. Why? From the definitive point of view those holy beings are fully enlightened. Moreover, even from the common point of view they attained high states of realization in reliance upon guarding their moral disciplines as they would their eyes, from youth onwards throughout their lives. To say that a causal factor of pure ethical discipline could result in rebirth in a lower realm of existence would be to assert that actions performed could be wasted; that one could experience the results of actions not performed by oneself; and that such scriptural statements as "From generosity, wealth, from ethics, happiness, are invalid and so forth. As a consequence, one would be turning ones back on Buddha's teachings as a whole.

"Furthermore, from the definitive point of view, that these holy beings were already fully enlightened innumerable ages ago, is clear if one examines the accounts of their lives, and if one were to say that a fully enlightened being could take birth as an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit, then one would be asserting that degeneration is possible from the state of full enlightenment or that someone could be both fully enlightened and an ordinary preta at the same time! Or else, one would have to say that the accounts of those great beings lives are worthless. A mountain of absurd consequences, previously non-existent distorted ideas, would have to be accepted."

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 22:20

Shaza;

Two important reasons why we can’t simply dismiss Trijiang Rinpoche’s words;

1) Trijiang Rinponche, an incarnate Lama, is considered to be an emanation of Buddha Amitabha. With the recognition (which Dalai Lama himself was part of)of his current incarnation (who is living in Switzerland ) is further proof of his enlightened status – as we know only Buddhas and Bodhisattva’s who are beyond samsara, can choose their rebirth whereas the rest of us are thrust forward by our Karma to take rebirth in one of the six realms in Samsara.

2) However, we know that mistakes have been made where ‘tulkus’ (incarnates Lama’s ) have been wrongly identified for political/worldly reasons, by mistakes etc I would think that the current Dalai Lama – is a classic example of this. So – in our current age we can’t simply rely on his recognition as an incarnate lama to prove his enlightened status. Instead we should look closely at his actions. If you do, it becomes clear that he performs exactly the same the actions of a Buddha and therefore he is a Buddha. I will explain this point further;

Buddhas have only one function – that is to lead suffering sentient beings out of Samsara. It is only out of their compassion they teach Dharma and reveal the path to enlightenment/liberation. Trijiang Rinpoche has dedicated his whole life to teaching pure Dharma (i.e not mixing Dharma with worldly concerns such as politics, power, manipulations etc) and it is directly through his kindness that we have Dharma in the West !!!Why? - because many of our current lamas in the western world were once his disciples.

So if you ask me who am I going to believe Trijiang Rinpoche or the Dalai Lama, for me it is simple – Trijiang Rinpoche for the following reasons;

1) He has dedicated his whole life to teaching Pure Dharma (i.e: not mixed with worldly concerns such as politics) and I am currently benefiting from his kindness because my root Guru is also one of his disciples. Dalai Lama – has taught NOTHING but pure dharma – Instead he has mixed Dharma with politics, Tibetan culture and worldly concerns. He has abused the kindness of his Guru by using the Dharma he learnt from Gurus to increase his worldly status that he currently enjoys whilst engaging in the heinous action of causing a schism and destroying Pure Dharma from this world.

2) As mentioned earlier Trijiang Rinpoche’s actions are indicative of the actions of a Buddha , whereas Dalai Lama with his Hollywood celebrity status, guest editing Vogue, appearing Apple Mac adverts, his ‘political’ role in the world and in Tibet, his connections with CIA –are actions of a politician, who is currently using spirituality to further his political and worldly aims. In this respect – he is yet another power hungry world leader filled with worldly concerns masquerading as a spiritual master – who I have compassion for.

Please do not be fooled by the Dalai Lama’s charisma or his worldly status. We have to check carefully whether his actions are in accordance with the Dharma – or that of a Bodhisattva - which he is supposed to be. Or at the very least – are his actions even in accordance with what he is supposed be champion of ‘human rights and religious freedom’. I THINK NOT! His actions with regards to this Dorje Shugden ‘controversy’ suggests otherwise. Please think for yourself and carefully consider the evidence that is in front of you – if you care to look.

shaza
07 September 2008 at 13:16

hi thermostatic,

---------'In any event, as a realist, I have no problem with some Lama having good relations with the Chinese.

yeah they are only human. it's nothing incredible when they have a common enemy - ie DL.

And CCP's policy has been very consistent in the past 10 years, the enemies of DL are our friends. That's why Kundeling Lama is a poster boy in Chinese media today.

Best

Shaza

shaza
07 September 2008 at 13:40

Hi Chelvi,

--------------------"Two important reasons why we can’t simply dismiss Trijiang Rinpoche’s words; "

Yes we can! Because Trijang's words do not make sense. For example...

--------------------" Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, as is taught in the lineage, was the final birth in a reincarnation lineage that included the Mahasiddha Birwawa, the great Kashmiri Pandit Shakya Shri, the omniscient Buton, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and so forth"

Buton lived from 1290 to 1364. Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen lived from 1350 to 1413.

So you see the problem to say that Duldzin Dragpa Dragpa was a reincarnation of Buton?

That's one reason why Trijang's "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protector" is pretty much a "cooked" book.

Best

Shaza

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 14:27

Shaza -

"And CCP's policy has been very consistent in the past 10 years, the enemies of DL are our friends."

so whose fault is that? the "enemies", or the CCP? even if i don't want to be associated with any political body or cause - and i don't - if such a body wants to capitalise on my activities for the sake of religious freedom, there is, regrettably. little i can do about that, is there? (though i have to say i'm yet to receive my communist funding...)

if the DL hadn't banned our protector, we would be of very little interest to the CCP, i think. it's politically very stupid of the DL to alienate a large section of his own people, is it not?

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 14:30

and for the record, to be clear: from my position as an active WSS member, i've never seen any link whatsoever between the WSS and the CCP, financial or otherwise.

thermostatic
07 September 2008 at 15:55

Who said or did what to whom in the anals of time is irrelevant. That is the whole point. To get everybody distracted by arcane and pointless debate. This whole issue will be resolved. The CIA India station will summon Tenzin Norbu. They will say the US has some big trade delegations going to China. We want you and Father Christmas (DL) to shut the hell up - about everything. We dont want you upsetting our new economic friends. And if you dont shut up, we will screw you. SILENCE.

And for Shaza - if you are a China watcher you will know in recent years CCP has hosted the largest inter-tradition Buddhist conferences ever held. Funny how they support Buddhism in general but not DL' s brand. That's because he, not them, mixes dharma with politics. A fool to his own people, if not an enemy.

shaza
07 September 2008 at 16:25

Hi Thermostatic,

-----------------------And for Shaza - if you are a China watcher you will know in recent years CCP has hosted the largest inter-tradition Buddhist conferences ever held. Funny how they support Buddhism in general but not DL' s brand. That's because he, not them, mixes dharma with politics. A fool to his own people, if not an enemy.

CCP certainly supportsTibetan Buddhism and certainly mixes Dharma with politcs, otherwise why would they picked their own choice of the Panchen Lama and tried every means to elect this puppet as a minister?

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-319196200802...

And Dougal -

--------''if the DL hadn't banned our protector, we would be of very little interest to the CCP, i think. it's politically very stupid of the DL to alienate a large section of his own people, is it not?'

you can also argue the other way round and say that despite all these Chinese politiking, DL still insists to denounce Shugden because it is the right thing to do, though unpopular.

Best

Shaza

Tenzin Peljor
08 September 2008 at 11:50

for the sake of balance of all these comments:

An overview on academic researches regerding the Dorje Shugden Controersy can be found here:

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/academ...

My thoughts about Fundamentalism and Buddhism together with an extensive link section can be found here:

http://buddhism-and-fundamentalism.blogspot.com/

Thoughts about mixing Dharma with Politics can be found here.

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/mixing...

A less partisan summery of the conflict can be found here:

http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html

Dougal
08 September 2008 at 14:18

less partizan??

Tenzin, you - one of the most vehement, prolific and obsessive anti-Shugden/anti-NKT posters on the world web web, with your several, various anti websites and blogs (including info-buddhism.com and info-buddhismus.de - "less parrtizan"???

:-D

my friend - that would be hilarious were it not for the fact that lying is a breach of your "Bhikkshu" vows.

Friendoftruth
09 September 2008 at 04:55

What is all this nonsense about ties to the Chinese? Once again you prefer to ignore the best of our Western values about human rights and choose to follow the one who instituted a permanent religious persecution? What a pity, I'm so sorry for such choice.

About this nonsense of accusing others of having ties to China, followers of the Dalai Lama, be careful with your sayings. He is the number one person in the world trying to be linked to China.

Not only it's already 20 years that he gave up Tibet independence but this year he insisted so much about being accepted back by the Chinese that he even said that he couldn't wait to see Tibet back in the fold of Mother China.

Do you realize the extent of the nonsense, of proclaiming publicly his intense desire to be part of China and at the same time demonizing the Protector's people as China's spies? This is just with the purpose to destroy them in the eyes of the Tibetan, who hate his idea of autonomy but don't dare oppose him, they prefer to spit over the scapegoat, the Protector's practitioners.

For those trying to malign Ganchen Rinpoche, I'm sorry for them. Ganchen Rinpoche is bringing Western help directly to Tibet and of course you have to have relations with local authorities if you want to do that. Besides, he publicizes himself with plenty of pictures and he never hid his good relationships with Chinese and Brasilian and the Pope and the man in the moon... that is his style, and he believes in building brigdes of friendship and peace through his Peace organization. Anyway, He at least is helping Tibetans in Tibet while others destroy the modicum amount of happiness that people might have there by sending troublemakers from India to Tibet. And I don't know this through reading blogs or newspapers, this is something that I know first hand, directly from the mouth of Tibetans from Tibet that saw their peace destroyed by the people sent by DL.

So dear people that approve of DL persecuting the Protector's practitioners: every contemporary fact that you present is as true as the horns of a rabbit. And you try to convince other using the mists of past history?

Have a good night!

shaza
09 September 2008 at 15:42

Hi Friendoftruth,

There's nothing wrong working with the Chinese. that's why you haven't seen me going around bashing all the 'patriotic" lamas in Tibet.

The 10th Panchen Lama was working with the CCP, he was "patriotic" no doubt, but that's what it took for him to protect the Tibetans. He was publicly chastised during the Cultural Revolution and subsequently imprisoned for many years before his release. Shortly before his death in 1989, he still criticised the CCP's policy in Tibet.

Now, that's what i called working from within for the benefits of Tibet.

But there is a difference between working with Chinese for the benefit of Tibetans and apologizing for CCP's crimes in Tibet like Kundeling Lama did in the French24 documentary.

-----------------------------------------""For those trying to malign Ganchen Rinpoche, I'm sorry for them. Ganchen Rinpoche is bringing Western help directly to Tibet and of course you have to have relations with local authorities if you want to do that. Besides, he publicizes himself with plenty of pictures and he never hid his good relationships with Chinese and Brasilian and the Pope and the man in the moon... that is his style, and he believes in building brigdes of friendship and peace through his Peace organization.

Anyway, He at least is helping Tibetans in Tibet while others destroy the modicum amount of happiness that people might have there by sending troublemakers from India to Tibet. And I don't know this through reading blogs or newspapers, this is something that I know first hand, directly from the mouth of Tibetans from Tibet that saw their peace destroyed by the people sent by DL. ""

Whether Lama Gangchen is currying favor with the Chinese for his own ambitious expansion the Shugden cult or doing something good is yet to be seen.

But his supporters are honestly sectarian for all to see.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/sectarianism.htm

"'The much talked about "yellow book" contains stories of what happened to people who "displeased" Dorje Shugden, which means to say, they were practitioners of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and of Dorje Shugden as Dharma protector who did not heed his repeated advice and warnings not to mix and pollute the teachings. Sickness, insanity and death ensued. The book was compiled by Tzeme Rinpoche, an eminent lineage holder, and we can therefore assume that these accounts are more than mere pedagogy, but actually happened the way they are told. (As a consequence of the scandal following the printing of the yellow book, Tzeme Rinpoche has ceased to teach. A famous disciple of Tzeme Rinpoche is Dr. Thupten Jinpa, HH the Dalai Lama's main translator.) "

And I am sure they have no problem showing Shugden's true face in Chinese monasteries because this is what they believe.

Best

Shaza

shaza
09 September 2008 at 17:46

Hi Friendoftruth

Maybe I was too easy on Gangchen.

With the help Chinese officials, Gangchen did force tibetan monks in a monastery to worship Shugden or face imprisonment.

http://www.tchrd.org/publications/hr_updates/2000/hr200006.h...

''In Gangchen village, there are 53 Tibetan families and most of them are farmers. Of these, 37 families face cereal shortage due to small landholdings, unfavourable climate and heavy taxes. At the age of 20, Sonam became monk of Gangchen Monastery, located in Saga County of Shigatse Prefecture and did intensive study of religious scriptures since then. Gangchen Monastery suffered complete destruction during the Cultural Revolution, and saw renovation in 1987 when local Tibetans and some elder monks took collaborative actions. Until March 1997, Gangchen Monastery had 29 monks, but the number has now reduced to 12 monks. In 1997, Sonam was appointed as a member of the Democratic Management Committee and tru-ren (Vice-President) of the Religious Committee of Gangchen Monastery. A six-member work team came to the monastery in March 1997, and stayed for three and a half months to conduct re-education. The members banned the pictures of the Dalai Lama and set a limit of 19 monks. No arrests were reported at the time. In June 1997, Gangchen Lama, a close associate of the Chinese authorities, visited the monastery. He called a special meeting of the monks whereby he gave instructions on showing loyalty and patriotism for PRC.

Gangchen Lama visited the monastery again on 3 December 1999, and instructed the monks to worship shugden deity (Shugden is a spirit which the Dalai Lama discourages to propitiate). He claimed himself as the re-incarnation of Panchen Sang Tashi, the founder of Gangchen Monastery, and called the monks to respect and worship him. He distributed booklets to the monks that has detailed explanation about his re-incarnation. However, no monks accepted him at the time.

Later, Gangchen Lama called 10 officials from the County Religious Department and PSB to instruct the monks to worship shugden and to respect him. A meeting was held in the monastery that very same day where the officials threatened the monks with arrest, detention and imprisonment if they oppose Gangchen Lama. Furthermore, refusal on the monk's part would be deemed political and they would be investigated for crime against the nation. Since the beginning of 1999, Gangchen Lama had started building a new monastery of his own on the northen valley of Gangchen Monastery. The officials of County Religious Department and PSB forcefully evacuated the monks of Gangchen Monastery to the new monastery on 27 December 1999. Two new statues of the shugden deity placed in the prayer hall by Gangchen Monastery were met with protest by the monks. The statues were later taken by the monks who hid them in a nearby cave, which was used for meditation. There has been no history of shugden worship by the monks of Gangchen Monastery.

Owing to constant pressure to worship the deity and orders to carry out the instructions of Gangchen Lama, seven monks fled the monastery. Sonam fled from his monastery on January 1999, and stayed in Shigatse for two months. He escaped to Nepal in a group of eight Tibetans by paying 1800 yuan to a guide. He wishes to join a monastery in India. ''

So friendoftruth, is this your example of Gangchen bringing in Western help via liasing with local authorities??

Best

Shaza

Best

Shaza

Friendoftruth
10 September 2008 at 03:40

And what is the origin of this beautiful story? I am too used to your slandering ("your" meaning, not your person, the DL's side's slandering) to believe a single word of what you are saying. You are applying an old soccer rule: the best defense is to attack. And you are attacking a Lama in order to fabricate a small red herring to erase for a while what the Dalai Lama is doing. Too transparent.

Which brings me back also to your comments on the Yellow Book. So you are using the sayings of a book to justify a religious persecution?

Just look into what the Tibetan community is doing to the Tibetan Gelugpas faithful to their Lamas, to their tradition: the civic death to which they are condemned, the social death to which they are condemned, and all the suffering to which they are condemned that I am not going to repeat again because I am not a parrott.

And you dare talk to me about a Yellow Book! So whatever an old fashioned Lama wrote on a book is the justification you give for the unlawful, cruel campaign unleashed against innocent people?

Either you are kidding me, or kidding yourself.

Enough of this nonsense. You should be ashamed to keep on trying to find justification for such cruelty. You don't justify a religious persecution, you only try to stop it. No need to be a Buddhist, just a decent human being. You do not condone a persecution, you try to stop it if you can.

You know, some people report that some of our Lamas have said already years ago that the Dalai Lama is sick. So in the end, if this is true, the poor man might have some justification for his actions. But tell me, what is the justification for the non Tibetans, the ones who are not subject to pressures like the Tibetans are, what is their justification, your justification for following the Dalai Lama in his unlawful behaviour?

Geronimo
10 September 2008 at 06:32

This Dalia Lama contradicts the Vinaya and our Democratic Principles.

He has betrayed all, Freedom Loving People around the world.

His incursions to repress others Rights to their own beliefs is motivated by his own fears that he will be found out to have extinuished the life force of a Wisdom Buddha.

His predecessor, the 5th Dalia Lama ruthlessly seized power by the assassination of Lord Dorje Shugden, and the slaughtering with the full force of the Mongolian Cavalry bearing down on other Monastic Seats, within Tibetan Mahayanna Buddhism.

Today, as his own life force ebbs away. We find a man filled with desperation to establish his lineages claim, as forthright and to mirror the illusions, that he is a man of compassion and peace. A light unto the world is his personal mirror.

When in actuality, he has pursued a sinister trail of deceits and lying to protect his precious vision of himself for over 400 years. As a hungry ghost, he cannot satisfy his lust for power.

We can tell what he is, by the fruit he bears. This fruit has become spoiled and rotten with “The Three Poisons” as the basis of his thoughts, actions and deeds.

He become corrupted with his lust to be a part of the most corrupt of Hollywood society and the admiration of corrupt global leaders. As with George Bush, a man who will soon be brought to trial for his crimes against humanity and violating the US Constitution.

So will this Dalia Lama be brought to trial,in the Indian Courts. For violating the Indian Constitution provisions for freedom of religion.

Which clearly protect all people’s right to believe as they choose.

“Birds Of A Feather, Flock Together”

shaza
10 September 2008 at 06:59

Hi Friendoftruth

----------------------------------------"And what is the origin of this beautiful story? I am too used to your slandering ("your" meaning, not your person, the DL's side's slandering) to believe a single word of what you are saying. "

Gimme a reason to believe otherwise.

show me how Lama Gangchen was bringing in Western assistance by expelling monks for not worshipping Shugden, not just empty claims.

---------------------------------------"You are applying an old soccer rule: the best defense is to attack. And you are attacking a Lama in order to fabricate a small red herring to erase for a while what the Dalai Lama is doing. Too transparent."

You brought it up yourself. I wasn't that eager to find fault with Lama Gangchen but i'm glad you put me up with that exercise.

-------------------------------------- "Which brings me back also to your comments on the Yellow Book. So you are using the sayings of a book to justify a religious persecution? "

Who is persecuting whom?

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/a-forg...

-------------------------------------------------" And you dare talk to me about a Yellow Book! So whatever an old fashioned Lama wrote on a book is the justification you give for the unlawful, cruel campaign unleashed against innocent people? "

Don't just listen to me.

Listen to what your fellow Shugdenpas say about it. They certainly believe all harmful actions of Shugden were justified.

Otherwise, why would they say "The book was compiled by Tzeme Rinpoche, an eminent lineage holder, and we can therefore assume that these accounts are more than mere pedagogy, but actually happened the way they are told."

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/sectarianism.htm

Best

Shaza

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 02:50

Douglas Shaza Chalmers

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 05:10

Dalia Lama, Samdong, Tenzin Peljor,

It's Time to Mend your Ways!

Right Away Without Delays!

Because as they say,

"A pig with lipstick,

Is Still a pig!"

A man in robes is not a monk nor a lama!

Just a man in robes!

Unless a Man in Robes ,

Is Actually Practicing the Precepts of Lord Buddha

He is just a man in robes,

neither a monk,

nor a lama.

Just a Man!

This Makes All of You!

Just Men, In Robes, Lying!

Not a monk, nor a lama!

Practice the Precepts of Lord Buddha!

Become Monks or Lamas,

or

Just Be Anyone!

Trying to Practice,

To Follow the Way!

The Perfect Precepts,

Of Lord Buddha's Way!

Practice The Precepts!

Say the Truth!

Redeem Yourself!

Of

Your Self-Cherishing Ways!

"Peace & Blessings"

are

" Every One's Rights!"

"Confederation of Shambala Warriors"

Council Of Vajra Elders

Thomas Canada

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 20:28

Tibet: The Shangri-La that exists only in the West's imagination

By Kevin Deluca

Article Last Updated: 09/01/2008 11:33:21 PM MDT

With the Olympics over, I hope the Western sport of bashing China over Tibet might stop.

Working in Beijing during the Tibet riots and the preparations for the Olympics gave me a unique perspective. Growing up with Western media and Hollywood, I am used to our embrace of the Dalai Lama. Being in China, I saw the Chinese point of view.

Seeing both sides suggests the need to abandon simplistic political stances in favor of some self-reflection and historical context.

Although we should criticize China's censored media, the Tibet riots revealed some troubling blindness among our own media. While the causes of Tibetan unrest are complex, it is clear that the March riots were started by Tibetan protesters and that they were quite violent. Indeed, they were violent enough to lead the Dalai Lama to threaten resignation if his followers did not stop the violence.

Since "violent Tibetan" does not fit our stereotype, our media fixed the news. While Chinese media showed extensive footage of violence and interviews with Chinese and Tibetan victims, Western media manipulated images and even showed footage from other countries (Nepal and India) in order to paint a picture of ruthless oppression by China's government.

Chinese media exposed the Western media manipulations, forcing the BBC, N-TV and RTL-TV to apologize. Not surprisingly, the American media has yet to acknowledge

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its bending of the truth. The point is that while the Chinese know their media is censored and do not trust it, we believe our news is objective and end up being righteous while misinformed.

If we had seen the violence of the Tibet riots, our condemnations may be more nuanced. Quite simply, no government, democratic or not, allows such violence within its own borders. Providing peace and stability, even by force if necessary, is what governments do.

Large and powerful countries tend to have regions that were not always part of the country. In America, we proudly call it Manifest Destiny and never trouble ourselves with how we got much of California and Texas from Mexico, never mind the rest of the country and our sordid history with Native Americans.

On the Chinese flag there are five stars commonly interpreted as representing the five major ethnic groups in China. One of those stars represents Tibetans. China's claim to Tibet spans centuries and it is a claim that the United States and the rest of the world recognizes.

To Chinese people, removing one of those stars is akin to removing one of our states, such as Hawaii. Our history with the native people of Hawaii has been relatively brief and quite brutal and there exists a tenacious independence movement. Still, there is no talk in the mainstream media and among the Hollywood celebrity activist circuit of Hawaiian independence, not to mention Puerto Rican independence or the American Indian movement.

Government repression of these movements also escapes media scrutiny. Before we lecture China, we may want to tend to our own backyard.

Amid cries of "free Tibet" and calls for religious freedom, the question is what does freedom have to do with Tibet? Under the Dalai Lama, was there religious freedom? Was there any freedom? Actually, no.

We would recognize the Dalai Lama's Tibet as a medieval religious theocracy with a small elite class served by a large and oppressed serf population. The Dalai Lama ruled a region with no religious freedom, no political freedom, indeed, no human rights of any kind. The rulers were ruthless. Torture and mutilation were widespread. Poverty and starvation were rampant. It was Shangri-La only in the West's imagination.

Richard Gere, Sharon Stone and other Hollywood devotees may be surprised at their idol's current positions. The Dalai Lama condemns abortion and homosexuality while accepting prostitution. For decades the Dalai Lama secured millions of dollars from the CIA and runs his government in exile like a monarch.

Despite its shortcomings, Chinese rule has provided the Tibetan region with infrastructure and public schooling and provides Tibetans with widespread opportunities and a degree of personal freedom unheard of under the feudal theocracy of the dalai lamas.

China is far from perfect and deserves honest scrutiny and criticism. To expect China not to act like a large and powerful country, however, and to throw stones from our glass house, proves nothing but our own ignorance.

Geronimo
12 September 2008 at 05:39

10

Sep

08Open Letter to Robert Thurman from the Western Shugden Society

post info

By goldenmala

Categories: western shugden society

Tags: bob thurman, buddhist taliban, dorje shugden, dorje shugden controversy, gelugpa, kagyu, nyingma, robert thurman, sakya, sectarianism, shugden

This letter was posted on the Western Shugden Society website today:

An Open Letter

To Robert Thurman,

We the Western Shugden Society are writing this letter regarding your previous public statement that Shugden people are sectarian, naming them “the Buddhist Taliban”; and your recent public statement that the Western Shugden Society protestors are “working for the Chinese”.

As you know, Shugden people want to practice the Gelug tradition purely, without mixing with the Nyingma tradition. Because of this the Dalai Lama has said to Shugden people that they are sectarian. In truth, the Nyingmapa also want to practice their Nyingma tradition purely without mixing with the Gelug tradition; and it is the same for the Sakyapa and Kagyupa. So according to the Dalai Lama’s view, the Nyingmapa, Sakyapa and Kagyupa are also sectarian, but he only says that Shugden people are sectarian. In reality he is lying.

If you, Robert Thurman, are not yourself lying, then you must show your evidence to prove your public statements: that Shugden people are sectarian, “the Buddhist Taliban” as you named them; and that the Western Shugden Society is working for the Chinese. You should show your evidence publicly through the internet before 25th October 2008. If your evidence does not appear by this date then we will conclude that you have lied publicly and are misleading people.

Sincerely,

Western Shugden Society

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2 Responses to “Open Letter to Robert Thurman from the Western Shugden Society”

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1 Thom

September 12, 2008 at 1:02 am

Inside the Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center with the Dalia Lama’s family having fun.

In 1979 in Bloomington,Indiana. We built the Tibetan Cultural Center at the request of the Dalia Lama, to act as a respository for the Vast Treasure Trove of Knowledge. Which at that time, the Cultural Revolution appeared to have litle chance of surviving with any kind of substance.

Before the fame of Daliai Lama was world renowned and he was teaching to maybe 30 or 40 people and no security guards or admission fees. Just one on one! Now this was very nice and dharma flourished in Southern Indiana and Wisconsin.

Years later in 1996. Everything changed with his stepping over the boundaries of our differing cultures by violating others Religious Beliefs and Persecuting only one of the 1,000 Dieties of the Mahayanna Buddhist Pathenon, Shri Dorje Shugden. The same that the 5th took measures to eradicate before seizeing absolute control over Tibet, with the full power of the Mongolian Cavalry slaughtering his opposition.

I do know that the stuff that is going on in the name of Lord Buddha and Tibet, has nothing to do with The Teachings of Buddha ,and it should not be confused as the same.

The Lamas bought over 20 Tibetan Mahayanna Buddhist Monks. We proceeded to build Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang Rinpoche first Monastery in the Americas. He dedicated this monastery to the Preservation of the Teachngs of Je T’songkhapa.

Gonsar Tulku enshrined Shri Dorje Shugden to be the Protector of Dagom Geden Tensung Ling Monastery, forever,

Just as Lord Buddha said, “The Wheel Of Dharma, will turn to the Land of the Red Men” where it will flourish.

It would be normal for all Buddhist Practioners to rejoice in the establishment of the dharma in the West.

Instead, we are attacked for Preserving the Teachings and Humiliated in the media as Devil Worshippers.

This year has shown the true face of Tibet’s Ancient Tribalism conflicting values and Priciples with Modern Nation States.

Now, we have people like Taliban Bob Thurman appointed to sit as Chair of the Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center. Where the reports from the locals go like this and the liars and deceivers as Bob and his compatriots continue to run amuck and steal what they can, while they can get away with it.

“Oh negative energy abounds out there even now. Kunyang and Jigme Norbu took funds and hundreds of thousands of them for years for their own personal use. They also took money out of the equity of the buildings out there–well over a million dollars supposedly from that alone. Then the bank who hadn’t been paid in forever foreclosed and it went up to one day before a sheriffs sale before would have confiscated the proeperty.

H.H. was able to get the money together to stave the banks off for a month or something. Then in the end he had to ask four very wealthy people he knew personally to save it, which they did, by paying off all of the loans. Meanwhile Kunyang and Jigme still drive around town in very expensive automobiles, still have their restaurants and lots of rental property. So in 2003 I think it was

The entire place was re-organized and the Norbu family had to sign off of everything out there. So Norbu has been and was being taken care of by monks and lay tibetan men or he would have been in a nursing home. The house they built for themselves in the back part of those 108 acres .

I believe Kunyang no longer lived there even. So yeah, bad blood as they say. Jetsun Pema showed up and hair went up on end with her sister-in-law.

I am the only person around here that gave significant money to the center over the years that is still around. And I left town and only came and went now and then. For a long time the Norbus and (Mr. Norbu was not sick at this time) kept the gates locked and you couldn’t even go out there.

But during those years I always figured he needed that privacy. I mean you know what a life, made him kind of crazy in my opinion.

When all the re-organization happened, Dalai Lama appointed Arji Rinpoches to head the center. In short, it’s been more of the same and worse.

Arji ’s story is difficult to be sure, but he is a real dictator and doesn’t like women except to be the oh the great one! Oh kow tow! You know how it is…a very male oriented society even if the women in Tibet had a measure of more freedom that those in the rest of Asia .

He was tight with the communists for years after his release from prison camp for supposedly 16 years. You know the whole story is never told…

So more of the same, the ‘public’ will not be allowed to attend the traditional cremation for Tagster Norbu.

Compare that to little Lama Yesche, who didn’t even hold a gesche degree but had more flourishing centers world wide than just about any one else! He wanted all people who could come from all over the world to attend his cremation–his final teachings. He died at age 49. So it goes with the Norbu family. Kunyang is out there along with Jigme strutting around ‘in control’ for a short time again. Never learned, just never learned. Meanwhile Jetsun Pema was sent immediately by H.H. to supervise the arrangements, and of course Pare Rinpoche is there. I think H.H. sent Pare rinpoche for this purpose I really do, to see his brother out!

This is the way Bod deals with the rustics in Indiana. He will do little but use it a podium to further lie and deceive the wide-eyed western people.

2 Thom

September 12, 2008 at 3:31 am

Defend the Dharmapala’s Monastery

Dagom GedenTensung Ling

Excerpts Herald Telephone Interviews

Thubten Norbu

Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center

“The Dalai Lama has actually repudiated his own spiritual guide, which is, again, very un-Buddhist. The Dalai Lama himself offered prayers to Dorje Shugden for 40 years.

Yet now he repudiates him. And he won’t say why.”This is a worldly deity”.

The Dalai Lama’s elder brother, retired Indiana University professor Thubten J. Norbu, talked about the controversy at his home outside Bloomington. And his mind is somewhat clear about the Shugden dispute.

“This is a free country. If these people want to worship a ghost, they can worship a ghost.

But I believe this is a worldly deity and this is not Buddhism, you know”.

Norbu said he did not know why his brother, the Dalai Lama, turned against Shugden.

“He must have his reasons.

My brother is one to thoroughly study everything.

He knows what he is doing.”

He practiced Shugden himself, until 1995. When he also had to give up his practice to please his brothers’s wishes.

Thom Canada, who donated the 100-acre site in 1979 on the south of town that includes the cultural center and Norbu home, is now a supporter of the Shugden postion of religious freedom, and it’s beleagured practitioners.

He has donated land next to Cascades Park for a monastery accommodating Shugden worshippers and sees himself as a “rescue” resource for persecuted Shugden followers that endure suppression and violation of their Civil Rights from the Dalia Lama.

“I’ve gotten a death threat myself,” Canada said last week. “So when they say there is no persecution going on, don’t believe it. There are vigilantes out there who at least believe they are doing the Dalai Lama’s will. They told me ‘We’re going to kill you and we’re going to kill all the other lamas, one by one.’”

Bruce E. Wilson, who leads a small, third congregation of Tibetan Buddhism followers in Bloomington, says, “There is a Tibetan proverb that says you can’t have politics without religion and religion without politics. I think in the U.S. our great strength is the separation of church and state, and it’s not hard to see why.”

If there is one thing all factions agree on regarding the Shugden controversy it is the quintessentially Buddhist notion that each individual must seek his or her own answers and that no one should accept any one point of view simply because someone else does.

“Buddha said, ‘Monks, just as skilled persons, accept gold after testing it, by heating, cutting and rubbing it. Likewise, you should accept my words after examining them. Do not do so out of respect (for me),” Wilson recited.

I’m sure there’s quite a few Shugden practitioners who are attempting to remain silent about the Dalai Lama. Because of the West’s perception of him, in other words, they are acting and speaking for the wrong reasons, motivated out of self-interests and agendas, as well as pride.

Times have changed.

I cannot believe there is any discussions as to how polite we should be to the enemy of the Lineage?

I find it difficult to understand how anyone here cannot have a real understanding of a man.

Who claims to have the same mind continuum as the 5th & 13th Dalia lama.

Would not understand the depth of pain our Vajra Brothers suffered.

The 13th Dalia lama had their skins peeled from their bodies, very slowly over several days, until they succumbed, only 70_80 years ago.

Their cime was to place a piece of paper in Dalia lama shoe.

Imagine with Dalia lama admitted mind continuum.

As being exactly the same as the 5th & 13th Dalia lama

How much spite and scorn he has to hold for all of the centuries.

Even now in the light of day. He attempts the same now as those he flayed alive.

Only today,he uses false allegations and character assassination to

dismember his victims.

Dalia lama acts with much vengeful spite towards our brothers & Sisters and defamed our Teachers.

He is sick and his days are Very numbered.

The beauty of our position,as I see it.

Is we have truth and honesty on our side.

It doesn’t matter what they think about us at all.

Because we do not have to scheme and lie and try to trick anyone.

As they do.

I remember old Taliban Bob equating us to the Taliban, “Just like the Taliban”.

They had a full color photo of Dorje Shugden inside of Newsweek, and the story made Dorje Shugden look as alien to Mahayana Buddhism as a Catholic Cross would look like in a Mosque.

However they published a full color photo that made world circulation for everyone to get a glance of the Protector. Somehow they thought this made Shugden look different than theother 1,000 dieties of Mahayanna Buddhism. Twisted logic from Twisted Bob. Bob told me that he had taken over 800 LSD trips one night over a bottle of wine. That impressed me at the time.

I thought it rather a rash choice to make in defense of the Dalia lama to portray Shugden in

Newsweek.

I would have at that point in 1996_1999, thought if incredibly rude and ill-mannered to depict or reveal such intimate knowledge of Buddhism in a common tabloid as Bob choose to do.

But he choose to do as he does now. Make a fool out of himself

But that was then and not now. Now we know what it is and what to name it.Lies and Deceit!

They tried to tie murder wrap on Dragpa Gyaltesen, and it was thrown out of court.

But the stigma stuck in their repetoire of lying and deceitfulness

I figure we can unravel this package the same way it was wrapped up to begin with.

We need to continue to say the simple truth over and over and over again.

Call him whatever you want.

Because for too long people have been afraid to call him anything, other than your Holiness.

Well now, he no longer deserves or warrants any more respect than to call him Fred.

He is ordinary and does not practice the precepts.

No matter how much he sits and prays with Inter Faith Groups.

He is nothing more than a person like all the rest of us and is going through changes.

Once Dalia he realizes that he is an ordinary human.

He will be like the “Last Emperor of China”!

It’s just now we find that he is like a hungry ghost pursuing obsessions life time after life time vainly attempting to prove himself more adept, advanced and skilled than his superior, Dragpa Gyaltsen.

Whom he or his ministers stole his life force by shoving katas down his throat to cease his life functions and he became the Supreme Protector of The Dharma and provides each and every one of us the very best conditions of environment for us to mediate.

To achieve enlightenment and be happy all of the time. Sounds pretty scary to me.

What do you think?

Dalia’s ghost obsesses on one thing and one thing only.

Because his phantom has been unable to acccept his misdeeds.

That being when he decided to murder the Wisdom Buddha, Dragpa Gyaltsen.

I think of how the Hobbits rediscovered the ring and then one was killed and the other went on for hundreds of years in unimaginable isolation and suffering all deluded states imaginable self cherishing apparitions that blind him of his true state of guilt of murdering his friend to posses the ring . Thus enraptured with his delusions he flees from his mind’s judgement.

It causes me to reflect on this a little.

He wears the abhorrence of his crime similarly as in “The Portrait of Dorian Grey”, betrayed by his own mind’s evil nature.

Dalia lama carries this imprint of misdeed as a porter carries his load up a hillside.

He always stoops and not from humility.

But from the weight of carrying the Three Poisons over hundreds of years.

Dalia is making strategic errors now .It read clearly how desperate he is to see that his facade is crumbling before his eyes, with all his lies, he broadcasts them all over the world.

He does not consider how lies fly faster, than when he was a kid growing up in Lhasa.

His lies are moving faster than the speed of light in a cyclotron.

The lies are moving him out of his castle and onto the playing field.

The lies pile up higher than all the Bones of Mount Meru. For everyone to see the truth behind his lies.

All the conjured rituals of fear mongering he has created will come back to him in full stark clarity of his deepest fears being realized are exposed for the whole world to know.

Total disclosure of his misdeeds will eventually make him grateful to the Protector and lamas for healing this festering sore. He will be grateful eventually. I promise!

Now he looks quite sick.

Look into his face and eyes, and you can see his sickness.

I remember Dagom Rinpoche and Norbu meeting at the TCC .

I was giving Dagom Rinpoche a tour of my town and we drove up to the Tibetan Cultural Center on a whim and I was unprepared for what happened next was beyond belief.

We drove up to Chorten and there was old Tagster standing guard and Rinpoche was smiling

at Norbu and giggling a little through the car window. They obviously knew one another.

Norbu literally turned red and his face took on a demon of some sort. He snarled at me and told me leave.

I got out of the van and stood up in his face and asked. Why he is so rude to a new friend of mine and a lama?

I stared into eyes I had never noticed in the last 33 years.

I saw hate incarnate in my face.

I almost crawled on top of him in that minute.

Rinpoche called me back in and said, forget him.

I drove away never to speak to him again.

Mr. Norbu predicted, “I will be reborn as a Burro in Tijuana Mexico. ”

I used to argue and say, that this would never be.

Now, I understand why he would say this again and again.

He’d been selling OUT his countrymen and convinced them to sacrifice their lives in a nasty little guerrilla war for the KGB and the CIA for years.

He once was human and once he was a monk, But

He’d been doing this long before I ever met him!

However a promise is a promise.

The situation in India is where it is today.

Because even after the Boss cooled down for a few years, everyone thought our work is done.

In fact, I was sent a letter from the Monastery in India that said,”Our Work Is Done”.

So no one did anything, and thought, “we’ll just quietly practice our Dharma and maybe they’ll leave us alone.”

Like before!

That’s what I was told me happened after the flaying of the monks alive back in the 1930’s.

We’re Buddhist, we can handle a little roughing up every now and then.

Besides we have our vows to protect.

Now, we’ve done nothing for years, and everyone gets concerned and jumps up and down and runs around in panic and surprise that he was at it again.

I remember all the kind words.

It got absolutely no where, whatsoever.

“If you ain’t got nothing, you ain’t got nothing to lose”

So stack up the attachments and people hang on to what holds them back.

I remember the most single moving act of a monk in 1964 Viet Nam lighting himself up in a lotus position with a jerry can of gasoline to protest the US presence, bringing more heartbreak to Viet Nam.

He never wavered as the flames consumed his body.

He remained in perfect equipoise as he taught me enough at 16 not to join the army at 18.

Was this too violent or abusive to others less learned , young or naive, than he ?

Did he break a vow with his act?

He stunned the world or my world with a totally alien and illegal act.

Was it suicide or sacrifice or a teaching?

I’m sure his motivation was Bodichitta inspired.

What I think is that any words that can bring this useless suffering to an end is far better than being forced to light oneself up to prove a point or gain attention.

What gets headlines and brings attention to the plight of the monks and the gross violations being perpetrated upon all of us who believe in total Equality for all sentient beings.

I think the lamas and monks have set the tone from how it feels from their side of the planet.

Not ours, over here in the relative comfort of the West.

Kunden ling and others are taking the heat in New Delhi with constant pressures from the goon squads of the Dalia lama.

Remember how that felt back then? I do!

However the stakes have changed and it is apparent by the recent news that DL and Thurman have completely come unhinged. He’s put Bob in the hot seat to lie thoroughly right before the court hearing in New Delhi.

Bob always says outrageous stuff to get himself worked up. It helps him to lie more convincingly to himself.

All we had to do last time was build a Shugden Monastery in Bloomingtonto get his attention.

He came running to destroy the Shugden Sangha with the full force of the Kalachakra.

Just like a Hungry Ghost with an obsession!

We’ve definitely got Fred’s attention and he’s ticked off.

That’s good!

Now if we can only keep him going until he gets flustered.

He’s prone to go off the deep end about this issue.

Good now they’ll look like lunatics.

It’s called turning the tables.

All we need do is let them fall into their own bed of lies.

Moment Of Truth!

Dalia lama looked through the National News tonight and said, “I will not stop Tibetans from expressing their religious freedom. I am freedom man.”

I almost lost my dinner with this absurd and untruthful statement.

A man in robes,lying is not a monk, nor a lama.

It is enough for any of us to know, that real danger is here.

The bigger they are, the harder or farther they fall.

So, I am going to be listening for a big thump.

I feel happy that the Protector is bringing on the Sun Shine, and it’s never darker than before the dawn.

We’ve been “Watchers For The Dawn’, for a long time.

I think I see a beam of light shine forth in the dawn of morning first light.

I think that the Masters await until the stream clears and runs clean.

Giving us just enough time to prepare.

This man has one major agenda, and that is to Destroy The Teachings That Dorje Shugden Protects and The Lama Chopa Guru Lineages with Single Pointedness of mind.

This is what Dalia lama is doing.

One Dream, One World, One Master, which he aspires to be.

He is not mincing words or hesitating for even one second to accomplish his obsession to destroy all traces of Dorje Shugden from this world.

We must defend ourselves.

It is not surprising that the Dalia lama’s clique of rich actors choose to attempt to ruin one of the few events that the world celebrates in concord together.

The individual spirit’s power to unite us by their victories.

We share with enthusiasm and bask in the light of their achievements.

The Olympics began in the cradle of western democracy principles and ideals. Tibetan never experienced any thing remotely resembling democracy under the 14 Dalia lamas over the last 400 years.

The Dalia lineage devised a Medieval slave_serf class structure that rode on the backs of the Tibetan people for far too long. He called in the Mongolian calvary to force all the different school under his control by force and became the Supreme Dictator of Tibet, similar to the modern communist state of North Korea

It was Radio Free Tibet,that announced the location of the recently reincarnation of the Panchen lama in 1991.

The Chinese authorities picked him up in a matter of hours.

The Panchen lama is of equal authority as the DL.

It was the PRC that liberated the people of Tibet.

This Dalia lama is no different now after 49 years, than his predecessors.

Only a month before he incited the rioting in Tibet.

The Dalia lama threw out a 350 year old respected order of the The Tibetan Mahayana Gulug lineage of Dorje Shugden into the streets of India. Thousands of the clergy are now confronted by Tibetan Vigilante goons that stated they will harass them out of the Tibetan Colonies in India.

Why?

He wears two mantles of authority that tread daily on our Founding Father’s Principles of Equality and Freedom of Speech and Religion.

He does not adhere to our Bill Of Rights.

Nor would he know what to do with our rights inside his government in exile.

The western news reporting is as blind to the history of the Dalia lama as are the Free Tibet people are. Free to go back to a free Tibet that never existed except as a despot’s medieval time warp.

Democracy is not the Free Tibet the Dalia lama strives to emulate.

He is free to glory in his own emulation of himself.

Not the values of the American Founding Fathers Belief In Equality. Which he, Bob Thurman and his side kick, Richard Gere have betrayed.

We need to address whomever our direct Masters or Teachers and seek their immediate input and advice on dealing with this looming crisis in the Colonies.

If we in the west contemplate inflation and shortages and depressions. We can only imagine the stress that is arising on the Indian Sub Continent with food and fuel shortages with unfavorable crop yields anticipated, due to drought.

We might consider that the additional stress the Dalia lama has placed upon the local economy by his erratic and tenacious behavior towards his own people.

It is clear that many people are emotionally charged and flailing and thrashing blindly against anyone the Dalia lama scorns. Which includes the Chinese and Dorje Shugden Devotees.

Acting in unison will help to bring about the desired results for this witch hunt implemented by the mind of a backward medieval dictatorial Potentate.

Or shall we do as before and simple practice our Dharma in quiet, and maybe nobody will notice us and leave us alone.

It hasn’t worked before and there is no reason to think it will resolve itself so easily this time.

Get off your pillows, stand up and ask yourself and others.What can I do?

Now in this moment and the next.

Your Protector needs you to act as he directs each and every one of us in our audiences with him.You might be in for the ride of your life.

Protetor Power is an overwhelmingly out of the body experience in real time.

All we need to do is say Yes! I will, and I can do whatever it is you need for me to do, right now.

Enlightenment is like that. The Now is all there is, so let’s start acting like our Brothers and Sisters for those that need our help now.

Who else will , if we do not.

Now the brothers India share the tale of darkness and despair of Vigilantes,who have sworn to bring us to an end.

So unite us, Love is all you need.

I am glad my words have been of some comfort and if it is any more help please know that you are not alone. With the way things are going I am sure you will not be the last.

Fortunately, I am very familiar with Thom Canada as a spiritual warrior who has inspired people like me, to shatter the silence of fear and clamorously defend our precious lineage. He has helped unveil the man behind the curtain so we can see for ourselves the nature of deceit and destruction handed out by the DL. He has made every sacrifice in the effort to make sure that freedom is near. I will let others fill you in on the history if they want, I do not think that is my business. What matters to me is his actions carried out on behalf of our great Protector, Gyelchen Dorje Shugden.

ar with the workings of the DL and his administration. They do not operate ethically and morally.I have witnessed many great lamas, members of the Sangha and simple lay people go through the same types of persecution. In feudal Tibet the punishment of being excommunicated and ostracized were reserved for those who were the greatest threats. This mentality is carried on to this day.The only difference is that Tibet does not have a land to banish us from so the tactics of splitting and isolation from the community are now used. The DL and his administration still live in the dark ages yet present themselves as following Buddhist principles to the world and speak of peace. Thinking people who come in contact with this system recognize it and see fault in it. We do a service to our fellow human beings when we bring this to light.

, I am glad to see that u have had contact with several great masters of our lineage. In times like this I have found solace in the teachings and words of advice from our great lineage masters for they continue to guide me out of this difficult and trying time of afflictions and the impermanent reality of existence.

Your contributions to the Buddha Dharma thus far will continue to help people long after we’re gone.In some ways the hardships you have endured may not have been in vain.It could have helped clear or alleviate the obstacles and negative karma for the pure gelug tradition to flourish in the west.I applaud you for your willingness to keep an open mind and generous heart to possibly continue helping our brethren in the near future despite your bitter experiences with Tibetans. Pls know that there are still many people who see your good nature, your pure motivation, your unwavering faith and passion for Dorje Shugden and unquestionable willingness to help. This speaks to the kind of person you are. Many tend to misunderstand your passion for anger or scorn.

Thom Canada is a spiritual warrior who has inspired people like me to shatter the silence of fear and clamorously defend our precious lineage. He has helped unveil the man behind the curtain so we can see for ourselves the nature of deceit and destruction handed out by the DL. He has made every sacrifice in the effort to make sure that freedom is near. I will let others fill you in on the history if they want, I do not think that is my business. What matters to me is his actions carried out on behalf of our great Protector, Gyelchen Dorje Shugden.

Rainlute

Friendoftruth
13 September 2008 at 05:49

Whatever your name,

You still talk about a book, it doesn't matter what this fellow or that one thinks about the book, you use the book as a justification for the barbaric ways of the Tibetan leader.

That is the shame. Nothing will justify those who condone a schism in the religious field, a persecution in the civic context.

"Berzin has been a vocal anti-Dorje Shugden activist since the early eighties and if he -- a Harvard Ph.D. with all the languages that qualify him to do serious research -- has not yet come up with a coherent explanation after crusading against this tradition around the world for almost two decades merely repeating the prevailing prejudices, it points to the possibility that there may not be one."

This was written ten years ago. So please, stop serving us your reheated soup!

To try and justify the leader, instead of defending his victims. Aïe, what a pity!

shaza
13 September 2008 at 08:21

Hi Friendoftruth,

---------------------------------------------------"You still talk about a book, it doesn't matter what this fellow or that one thinks about the book, you use the book as a justification for the barbaric ways of the Tibetan leader. "

Perhaps you want to talk about another fellow's book like Trijang Rinpoche's 'Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors' instead?

Trijang's words certainly gives me food for thought, espcially about how Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen suddenly remembered his promise he made in a previous life, and then arranged his own death with the help of Nechung so that he can become the protector ghost of Gelug.

"Accordingly, going back to the last vision for a moment, not only had he received the command and commitment from his direct and lineage gurus such as Je Tsongkhapa who were of the same mental continuum as the Arhat Upagupta, it is also pleased him to hear it in the words of exhortation from that Protector of the Four Places, the Dharma King Nechung, and he had a vision of arising as a lord of the wrathful ones with an entourage of wrathful spirits and wrathful offerings. Yet his wish to arise as a protector of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings and the opportunity of the circumstances that would converge between the Great Fifth Dalai Lama and Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who were two great beings like the sun and the moon, seemed remote at the time. How quickly the commitments joined as one, he was enthroned, and so forth, as a great powerful wrathful protector of the Geden teachings, can generate conviction, as well.

When strangled with the scarf by those evil‐minded ones,

Through the force of bodhicitta you arose as an overlord of wrathful ones,

And, day and night, with various terrifying manifestations,

Frightened even the courageous, praise to you!

Then, when he remembered his previous promise, he

went to Pehar's temple and said to the Dharma King Nechung, 'Now I remember my previous promise, so what should I do?' The Dharmapala said, 'I can perform the activities to take care of that!' Soon after that, emanations of the Dharma King Nechung, hosts of travelers from all over, including many from Kham, eastern Tibet, came to Lhasa and sought audience and made offerings to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen at the upper residence, in numbers that seemed to eclipse even those seeking audience with the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama's Ganden Palace was referred to as the lower residence and Dragpa Gyaltsen's Palace was referred to as the upper residence and people were talking as if the upper and lower residences of Drepung were practically equal in stature. Moreover, in the center of the rows of monks attending the great offering and prayer festival of Lhasa they made Dragpa Gyaltsen's thron higher than the Dalai Lama's. By this and other various means, Desi Sonam Chöpel and other attendants at the Ganden Palace were made unbearably jealous and sought a chance to kill Dragpa Gyltsen. The auspicious time for Dragpa Gyaltsen's promise to be fulfilled had also arrived so, when he was thirty‐eight, on the twenty‐fifth day of the fourth month of the fire monkey year, he pretended a sudden illness which he said was due to 'nyen' spirits and made his preparations. On the thirteenth of the fifth month, Desi Sonam Chopel's brother named Depa Norbu or Nangso Norbu, in league with the evil Desi, under pretext of illness, came secretly to where Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was staying in the large bedroom of the house where he was born, called 'ga kha sa pa'xxviii, with the intention of killing him. No matter how hard he tried to stab him with his weapon, however, it would not penetrate the skin, so he stuffed a silk scarf down his throat until he died."

(p.93ff, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors)

--------------------------------------"So please, stop serving us your reheated soup! "

Well, it hasn't stopped Shugden followers from quoting Trijang's masterpiece today. The sorry thing is, many haven't really read through this bible to see how absurd the stories are.

Best

Shaza

Geronimo
13 September 2008 at 20:14

Confederation of Shambala Warriors!

Unite and Fight All Forms of Tyranny!

Convene The Gathering Force Of Dorje Shugden Warriors to Defend The Dharmapala’s Lineage!

All Voices in Concord as One!

The Enemy Does Not Delay for One Minute to Place Us In Our Graves!

Come Together Now, Before It Is Too Late!

Geronimo
13 September 2008 at 20:41

Tibetan Religion and Politics

Phayul[Saturday, September 13, 2008 12:16]

Samten G. Karmay

Karmay, Samten Gyaltsen

The Tibetans prided themselves on what they believed to be a unique tradition, the "combination of religion and politics" (chosi zungdrel). The concept itself goes a long way back in Tibet's history. However, many other countries still have similar traditions. It was only at the beginning of the 20th century that countries like France and Japan began to have the legislation for the separation of church and state that gave birth to the idea of practicing religion as a personal belief not regulated by the state. The process of secularization has been slow, but it is moving inexorably forward. This state secularism is the modern trend in many countries the world over.

It was startling to see a political meeting that took place in Dharamsala on May 3-4 2008 and broadcast on YouTube. It was attended by the heads of all the Tibetan religious sects and was presided over by HH the Dalai Lama. One of the topics of the discussion was the tulku issue, the reincarnated lamas, but the outcome of the discussion has not been reported. Not a single layman took part in the gathering not to mention any women. One wondered what happened to the famous democratization of the exiled Tibetan community in India.

The separation of church and state does not imply abandoning the practice of the established religion. Far from it, it secures freedom of religious exercise and therefore the right of personal choice whether one wishes to practice a religion or not. Furthermore it establishes the neutrality of the state as far as the religious denominations are concerned. In the case of Tibet there would be no preferential status whether it is the Bon, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu or Gelug traditions or even the Tibetan Moslems and Christians. What the "separation" does imply, however, is the government and religious institutions being kept independent from one and another and not combined as in the Tibetan political tradition.

A secular state is therefore neutral when it deals with religion by not supporting or opposing any particular sect nor does it give any preferential treatment for a citizen who belongs to a particular religion.

Buddhism as a state religion

Buddhism became the state religion of Tibet in the reign of the emperor Tri Song Detsen (742-797) and it remained so till the end of the Pugyal Dynasty in 941 AD. During the imperial period the emperors were the supreme heads of the state and the emperors were entirely laymen. The fact that Buddhism was the state religion did not affect the personal choice of faith among its members and in the country. However, the imperial government did subsidize Buddhist establishments such as building temples and contributing to their maintenance and this was considered to be meritorious work.

There were other periods during which time a lay government was in power in Tibet, for example, during the Tsang Desi's regime (c.1600-1642) which was most remarkable in its attempt to revive the national glory of the lay government of the imperial period.

The beginning of theocracy

However, in 1642 the Tsang Desi's government was toppled by the combined forces of Tibetans and Mongols at the instigation of the Gelug sect which effectively empowered the Fifth Dalai Lama (1617-1685), as the head of state. He had been, until 1642, merely the abbot of Drepung Monastery. A new era of theocracy was ushered in with the total supremacy of the clergy and the subordination of laymen to it. At the time of the Sakya and Pakmotu administrations from the 13th to the 15th centuries there were of course elements of theocratic development, but from 1642 the Ganden Potrang, the official seat of the government in Drepung Monastery, came to symbolize the supreme power in both the theory and practice of a theocratic government. This was indeed a political triumph that Buddhism had never known in its history in Tibet.

The term "theocracy" is normally defined as a form of government in which a 'god' or 'deity' is recognized as the supreme ruler. In Tibet's case the Dalai Lamas are considered as the manifestation of the Buddhist deity of compassion. In this theocratic system the head of the state was not only the political leader of the people, but also their spiritual master. In other words, the whole population was subjected and put in the position of spiritual disciple to the master. Within the context of this essentially religious bond no devotee would ever dream of opposing the view of the master, because that would be tantamount to breaking the sacred relationship between the master and the disciple. How does this fit with the discussion of democracy among the Tibetans in exile for whom HH the Dalai Lama is the political leader, but who nonetheless bestows on them the Kalachakra initiation?

Since the head of the state was a "monk-king" (domtsun gyalpo) the entire manner of raising children was immersed in religious education from a very young age without it ever being realized where this was going to lead. In such a system there was no personal choice of the religion that an individual wished to practice. One became aware of what one was subjected to only when one reached a mature age. In other words the faith was simply imposed by the state. The idea of the right of personal choice of one's own faith was therefore totally unknown and in modern terms denied. Important and even enlightening as this religious education might be, it had the undesirable effect of barring the entire population from contact with any kind of progressive or modern education over the last three hundred and sixty years. It is no wonder that the outspoken French socialist Minister of Culture, Claude Allègre, once remarked that he had never come across a Tibetan who was a biologist, archeologist, mathematician or physicist.

An incarnate Lama as ruler

The head of the state in Tibet, however, was never meant to be a tulku, a reincarnate lama. This status was inherited incidentally through the Fifth Dalai Lama when he was ushered in as the leader of the country. The irony is that not only he himself was a reincarnate lama, but he also embarked on creating others, for example, the Panchen Lama Lobzang Yeshe (1663-1737), who was recognized as the tulku of Panchen Lama Lobzang Chogyen (1567-1662), in 1667, by the Fifth Dalai Lama. This initiated the rapid increase of the number of tulkus especially in the Gelug sect. Perhaps one does not need to raise the question as to whether this tulku system ever served the national interest of Tibet at all. It is high time for the Tibetans to learn lessons from the checkered history of the tulku system that has caused so much political instability and disunity for Tibet.

In the 20th century alone, national unity completely broke down when one lama was set against the other as the pawns of great powers such as the Manchus, British India, the Russian Empire, the Guomintang government and now the Communist Party of China. In general, throughout the history of Tibet the tulku institution has invariably been the cause of schism, political intrigue and sectarian squabbles. Because of the tulku tradition we have now two Panchen Lamas and two Karmapas. Are we going to have two Dalai Lamas?

Recently the Religious Affairs Department of the Chinese government implemented a new law called "Order no. 5", containing 14 articles on "Management Measures for the Reincarnation of 'Living Buddhas' in Tibetan Buddhism". The Chinese government's strict control over tulku recognition further proves how politically vulnerable this system is and to what extent the tulku tradition can be exploited for political ends by an occupying power against the interests of the Tibetan people.

HH the 14th Dalai Lama has already announced that he will have no political role if "genuine autonomy" is established in Tibet. However, I believe that the Dalai Lama institution should be maintained if the majority of the Tibetan people agree upon it. Thus, in a future constitution this one should be the only incarnation in the country, and without any political prerogative. Ganden Monastery would be an ideal residence for the future Dalai Lamas if they wish to be a real "simple monk".

In the interview given to Euronews (August 11, 2008) HH the 14th Dalai Lama stated, I quote: "The Dalai Lama's rule is now outdated." If this is indeed the case, and I believe it to be so. it is desirable for the Tibetan people start to planning for the future with his help. He is the only one who has such long term world-wide experience and whose authority is unrivaled amongst Tibetan leaders. A decisive action is needed to be taken and very urgently. If he wishes he can assist the Tibetans in sorting out the theocratic conundrum in order to finally leave an unambiguous political legacy in the form of a total separation of religion and politics.

Unless and until the Tibetan people come to comprehend the need for the separation of religion and state they will never be able to create a healthy and unified community under a truly democratically elected leader.

They do not need to look far a field for a good example of this. In 2008 Bhutan, the Himalayan kingdom, very successfully introduced a parliamentary democratic system. Although the Kagyu sect is the official religion of state as represented by the Zhung Datsang, this was left aside and did not play any role in the election. Its new constitution states "It shall be the responsibility of religious institutions and personalities to promote the spiritual heritage of the country while also ensuring that religion remains separate from politics in Bhutan.."(article 3.3, www.judiciary.gov.bt)

Of course it appears inconceivable or even sacrilegious to break the taboo on the separation of religion and state for the Tibetans, but we can no longer hide our heads in the sand.

Secularism, sectarianism

In an interview given in Tokyo, April 2008, HH the Dalai Lama stated that he favoured in fact "secularism". The reason he gave was that "secularism" has no room for "sectarianism". Indeed Tibetan Buddhism has often been plagued by sectarian strife and this is still continuing in spite of HH the Dalai Lama's strenuous efforts to discourage and condemn it. It is precisely because of sectarianism that he has himself abandoned the cult of the deity Shugden, as well as forbidding it in all religious institutions in the exiled community. The main reason for forsaking this cult is that it engenders a sense of the superiority on the part of the Geluk clergy and it acts as an anathema to the other sects. It is not only a question of spirit-worship as people tend to claim when explaining why the cult has been forbidden.

A secularization of the exiled community should contribute towards solving the unending sectarian problems and lead to true unity amongst the Tibetan people, without any further religious interference in the political domain.

Friendoftruth
17 September 2008 at 04:51

Dear whatever your name,

You insist in serving us litterature and one that obviously you don't understand. Such a sad red herring.

As I said before, there are signs that the DL could've been ill all this time, and now it's starting to show. So this could nicely explain his terrible behaviour.

How are you going to explain yours?

Protecting a persecution.

shaza
17 September 2008 at 09:44

Hi Friendoftruth,

I understand "Music Delightling the Ocean of Protectors" is a pious fantasy written by Trijang Rinpoche to defend the dubious status of Shugden.

What do you think?

Best

Shaza

Tenzin
18 September 2008 at 02:34

Shaza, I always find your tone incredibly rude compared to most other people on here who are trying to debate this sensitive issue. I have noticed that about you on other blogs too.

Everyone, here is an interesting news article about the controversy appearing today:

http://citybeat.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid:146102

shaza
18 September 2008 at 12:29

Hi Tenzin

Thx for your comment. I don't think i am incredibly rude here but you are probably right that i am meeting sarcasm head on.

So do you want to comment on my points other than the obvious fact that you don't like my tone?

I'm not infallible. So you are more than welcomed to prove me wrong.

Best

Shaza

SeekingClarity
18 September 2008 at 15:17

Shaza wrote

"Trijang's words do not make sense...For example...

Buton lived from 1290 to 1364. Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen lived from 1350 to 1413. So you see the problem to say that Duldzin Dragpa Dragpa was a reincarnation of Buton? That's one reason why Trijang's "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protector" is pretty much a "cooked" book."

I note that no-one has yet posted a response to what to me seems an entirely reasonable point. Would be interested to read one.

Lineageholder
19 September 2008 at 08:23

Dear SeekingClarity,

Because Manjushri is an enlightened being he can have many emanations and doesn't have to reincarnate strictly sequentially like an ordinary samsaric being. This explains the disparity in the dates of Buton Rinchen Drub and Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen. In reality, Manjushri/Dorje Shugden's emanations are everywhere.

Buddha said in the scriptures "I am the Teacher and I am the listener" indicating that he can appear as both Teacher and student, or as anything for the benefit of living beings.

Brent
20 September 2008 at 00:31

Recently I read that the Dalai Lama himself was going to choose his reincarnation before he died -- or was he just talking about his successor? I remember reading "reincarnation" and being somewhat confused but perhaps he is saying he can do it because he considers himself Avalokiteshvara?

Geronimo
03 October 2008 at 05:25

Be Reasonable Robert Thurman, and Debate This Schism With Freedom Loving People like myself.

Robert Thurman,

I challenge you to defend your lies!

If you do not reply to me personally. Then you are all the things, I say of you. That you, Robert Thurman, are a Liar and Traitor to the Principles of Democracy and the dharma.

We are not all perfect beings and this defeintely includes both of you, Tenzin Gyatso Norbu and Robert Thurman.

Some of us realize that Tenzin Gyatso Norbu is a deceitful self cherishing incarnate of a Feudal War Lord, that slaughtered his own people to seize and maintain control of the different approaches to the Teachngs Of Lord Buddha.

Some of us realize that he is the antithesis of a man who trampels daily by his ignorance or attempts to undermine the underpinning of the Bill Of Rights and Civil Liberties of the People.

The Dharma Flourishes because, it has a home that respects and protects the rights of all to believe as they choose.

This schism only magnified his abbhorrence of individual thought to reason and find the way to the truth that Lord Buddha taught to us.

He prefers to lie and deceive and use the mouthpiece of Bob Thurman to validate his claims, that he actually speaks from the truth.

They have no weapons to use against the WSS,or any of us!

We,who are fighting to protect the rights of all People Everywhere, to Believe as They Choose.

Why?

Because, he has lied and violated the very principles,I’ve already mentioned.

Justice they say is Blind. But not Blind to the Breaking of Our Laws. which keep us from the Darkness of Lawlessness.

Nothing that has been said, can be disproved or proved within cetain disciplines.

However, if enough people see the truth and think about it long enough. Then the truth will prevail.

We did nothing to deserve this abuse, and he says nothing that justifies His Lies and Abuse to Those Suffering due to his activities to maintain his power base.

He is not a Buddha, and Lies with the Ease of a Mississippi River Boat Gambler.

Not all of us are scholars or well versed, but we have the common sense that Lord Buddha attributed to we mere mortals, to reason ourselves out of ignorance and find liberation one day.

The only loss of credibility is his and Bob’s incessant lying and deception they spew from their mouths each and everyday.

Only by the tenacious and continuous fortitude of each and every voice resonating with protest that he speak the truth. We expect even from the least of us.

Lord Buddha by all accounts, fought against the status of deceit and lying of other intent to have their self cherishing lifestyles. Maintained by the suppression of others by perverting the truths and creating all manners of maras to keep it that way.

This is a Democracy and not all voices may speak as you wish, but we speak with sincerity and a desire to eliminate ignorance and lies that hinder all from the seeking the way home safely.

I hope they challenge any of us publically with a rational and logical defense of their actions and try to defend this insanity on the Global forum for All to Witness.

If they had a leg to stand on, he would have courageously pursued it already.

They have not, nor do they intend to confront you or me or anyone else directly.

Instead they have Death Squads slinking down dark alley ways, and then have the audacity to point the finger at us.

He cannot hold his own, unless he is speaking to his ‘Chorus of Supporters’.

So, relax and let Democracy Protect Us from these Monsters.

Even Hitler had his day. He was loved by the deluded and brainwashed, and you can see what eventually happened to them.

As Dr, Bernis, who was in Munich during the bombing by the Allies in WWll, said. “Yes, Thom! We are grateful even for this tragedy. Imagine where we Germans and the world would be today, had Hitler had his way?”

This is warfare, not a nuance of semantics and dialectics within the debate halls of a Nunnery or Monastery.

We, The People, ill-versed and flawed, as we may be. Will fight on and on, until we defeat this monster and his mimmicks, who only care for personal power over others.

Hey There! Tenzin Gyatos Norbu! It’s me, Thom Canada calling you and Bob out, to defend your lies.!

See………………………………………..not a word of reply!

Why? Because they are cowards and thieves of the dharma, and know to fear me and you and anyone else who shines the Light of Truth.

We all attempt to say this truth with the sincerity of our hearts, and not the lies of a cheating mind portrayed by them

Lyara
03 October 2008 at 16:48

Newsflash -- Terrorist monks bomb Shugden residence

(BTW, I am copying this from www.WisdomBuddhaDorjeShugden.blogspot.com, which has posted a great deal of new information on this subject over the last week or two.)

Earlier this year, Tibetan terrorists bombed the residence of a Dorje Shugden practitioner. Check out the news article in Radio Free Asia

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/tibet/tibetans-1002200809535...

'Terrorist actions'

The security official said: "They carried out terrorist actions...If they don't appeal, they will be taken to Kongpo for imprisonment 10 days after sentencing. None had lodged an appeal by Sept. 30."

What makes this particularly horrible is that these terrorists were supposedly Buddhist monks, training in monasteries!

Moreover, the actions of these monks were clearly motivated by allegiance to the Dalai Lama, the supposed champion of peace and non-violence:

"No one was hurt in the blasts, three of which occurred at a Chinese military base camp, one at the Markham county office, three at an electric power transmission station, and one at the residence of a Tibetan who worships Shugden, a controversial deity espoused by Beijing but regarded with suspicion by those loyal to the Dalai Lama."

The followers of the Dalai Lama cannot blame this one on Chinese sympathizers trying to stir up trouble because three of the bombings were at Chinese military base camps.

And although Robert Thurman has falsely accused Shugden practitioners of being the Taliban of Tibetan Buddhism, there is no proof that any Shugden practitioner has ever been engaged in acts of terrorism. However, this is more clear proof that certain followers of the Dalai Lama -- and monks at that -- are no better than terrorists.

Thankfully, this time, no one was hurt; but, as Shugden practitioners have been pointing out, they are constantly subject to persecution and violence due to the Dalai Lama's repressive ban, and it is only a matter of time before one of them is killed.

The Dalai Lama and his government need to ask themselves some hard questions, including why monks loyal to them are engaged in such acts of pre-meditated violence and how an innocent Dorje Shugden practitioner could come to be the target of such violence.

Geronimo
06 October 2008 at 03:02

The Bombings were the result of Dr. Robert Thurman advice to Tenzin Gyatso Norbu !

He follows in the footsteps of his idol GW Bush betrayl of America. Bob is up for grabs and best watch his backside if he continues to be a Terrorist . He will end up on the Terrorist Watch List. His activities refelct the criminal activities of Wall Street and the Criminal Bush Administration . All of who will end up in Jail before this is all over.

Tenzin Gyatso Norbu, you are 50n years to late to try and pull this off. Why not drop out and count your mala or play with your daughter [which is fine that you have one}, but leave us alone and sing to your Chorus on the hills of Dharmasala. Try this stuff in the West and you will Really Regret it. We have Powerful Friends also and it's time to Shut Up!

Geronimo
10 October 2008 at 20:16

Pinnocchiio Policies Of Dalia Lama are harming the world and he will fall over due to the weight of his known_nose lying!

Abandon the Colonies ! Divide The Money

Move to Alaska and become Tiblaskans!

Tibetans For Alaskans,

Where Tibetans Can Be Free!

We only need 120,000 Visas for a land of only 600,000 and everyone receives $6,000.000 per year , Just to live up there!

Free Tibet by Sponsoring All as One,

TIBLASAKANS For ALASKANS

Geronimo
10 October 2008 at 20:26

That's $6,000.00 per year to live up here in theNorth By Northwest of Alaska. Where it's cold and there's snow with mountains and wildlife that brings streams practicaaly right up to your door.

Get out of the Indian Colonies and take your share of the money and apply to become Tiblaskans in Alaska.

We'll be waiting for you over here in the West. Where it is clear that we all are free and have our own minds to decide what we believe. No one man shows to force you hide your beliefs and practice.

Geronimo
11 October 2008 at 00:23

CS Lewis best described in his book, “The Great Divorce”. The situation at hand that the TGIE is a joke. Forcing the people on the Bus to take a dark ride into a hell, not of their making.

Well we can by the force of the land that makes us each equal, take them off this bus to nowhere.

I propose that rather than debating and swinging with these motely crews of Old Medievalist Tyrants, known as TGIE to let go and make the People free and let them off this bus to hell.

They reside aside an impossible position on the edge of a ledge known as Dharmasala.

We can lead them out of there! It’s so simple I can hardly believe it.

We in the West can bring Peace at last by ignoring the insanity to regain a land that shines as a Golden Star on the flag of China.

Instead,we put on the lead, and get them out of the Colonies.

Either go back home to China and make your changes from within with fearless challenge in a legal realm of China.

I propose that with only 120,000 or so. We apply for Visas to Alaska for all of them.

The People still there vote to take their share of the Dalia Lama’s income over the last 30 years and leave in masse as do the lemmings.

Only there is no ledge that takes them to their deaths in the oceans.

Instead they float over to Anchorage and become Alaskans.

Tiblaskans for Alaskans reject the Pinnocchiio Politics of the Dalia Lama.

Here we only have 600,000 in the largest state in the nation.

It cold and there is snow with wildlife and mountains in abundance.

Each Alaskans receive $6,0000.00 every year, just to live up here!

Then we will see how th DL’s power has dwindled to nothing. Once the people are free to speak their voices that none care for the path that this man, Tenzin Gyatso Norbu has taken them down a road to nowhere.

Get out while you can and you have the political clout to pass a motion to let a mass Exodus in to the Land Of Freedom called the USA.

From here after 10 years you can return to Tibet No Fear

Geronimo
11 October 2008 at 01:33

Tiblaskans Of Alaska!

For example, if there are in fact 120,000 Tibetan Refugees in India and elsewhere. Then the annual payment that The State Of Alaska distributes each and every year , as a small share of what the Oil Companies pay to the State Of Alaska, to each of it's state citizens.

Is equal to 720 million for the 120,000 Tibetans seeing the light and getting out from under the thumb of the Dalia Lama's Policies of Lying.

With all the Free Tibet support, wh not use it to take care of yourselves.

Take that determination to see your sinking ship is going down with Dalia Lama's Pinnocchiio Politics.

If you consider that you only need a few friends to sponsor a Tibetan or ask the Dalia's Poitician's to pass a Exodus of Tibetans to Alaska for US Citzenship.

I can assure you that no one is going to war over Tibet and the few who do, do Terrorist acivities will just spend their days in a cage spining their malas.

That 720 million USD each and every year and doing nothing eles. Which is ridiclous to even consider.

Come over and hurry there's dwindling resources for all.

Only 600,000 people in a HUGE piece of the USA. Just sitting around doing not much, but how much more can I suggest, but to take care of yourselves and not spend time chasing Ghost. Get out from under a One Man System.

Come on Over here and become Tiblaskans for Alaskans!

Geronimo
11 October 2008 at 23:19

[Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden Blog] New comment on "Does Lama Zopa’s closeness with H.H. the Dalai La....

Thom has left a new comment on the post ""Does Lama Zopa’s closeness

with H.H. the Dalai La...":

People of conscience know within themselves, as to what is right and

what is wrong!

Some of us may be unable to discern the truth or are just afraid that

the vows they've taken might be splattered against the wall. Some may

think, I didn't sign on to get involved with this insanity of the Dalia

Lama's 'Pinnocchiio Policies'

After all, that's why they vowed to leave Samsara and get on the roadway

to Liberation.

Spiritual Police? I thought this was all about self-governing. You know

the Eight Fold Path to monitor your precepts taken from Lord Buddha and

not some sort of Secret Police.

The idea that people could fall into the trap that the German People

did by ignoring the trains that took the Jews and Gypsies to the Smoke

Stacks of oblivion.

Later, the same people would plead,'We didn't know, what was going on!

Honest! We thought they were making cookies and pies.

What a surprise that we find the same type of arrogance within the

Mahayannist Buddhist Groups.

Wake up! before it's too late. Following this false lama, known as

Tenzin Gyatso Norbu is leading you down a path that will be difficult

to steer away from!

There is no confusion and photos opts make no difference. I have

archival footage leading down the path to Stupas with the Dalia lama

and his brother.

See what it's gotten me?

A bag full of dough Balls, with 'VooDooHooDoo Dolls', Just for me!

I laugh in their faces! Because, I'm still here and intend to bring them

down to their knees ,before us.

Hitler was loved, just as is this Dalia lama.

It does not mean that

both were not liars.

If , FMPT or TGIE believe, that any of this, has anything to do with the

Teaching of Lord Buddha? Then you are sadly mistaken.

Duldzin
23 October 2008 at 19:27

DALAI LAMA GIVE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!

Millions of Buddhist across the world carry out the practice of an ancient well loved prayer to the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden.

The Dalai Lama has illegally banned this prayer even though he himself practiced it for most of his life and was taught to him by his Spiritual Guide before him. Since banning the prayer in 1996, the Dalai Lama has set about instigating and endorsing a series of non-democratic and vehement campaigns toward Shugden practitioners causing tremendous pain and great schisms within the Buddhist community worldwide.

His campaign has intensified since January this year when over a 1000 monks were unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries, Tibetans-in-exile were forcibly intimidated to engage in public signature and swearing campaigns, and since which Shugden devotees have experienced having identity cards and visa applications withheld, they have been denied basic needs and necessities such as food, water and medical assistance, and there have been instances of thuggish attacks against persons and arson against their property simply because they wish to maintain their spiritual beliefs.

The Dalai Lama continues to campaign for support to seek religious freedom from the Chinese. Yet, millions of Shugden practitioners worldwide are also seeking religious freedom - from the Dalai Lama.

mahavira
15 November 2008 at 12:37

Shugden practioners = funded by the chinese.

Therefore Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, Zong Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe and His Holiness until the mid-70's = all funded by the chinese? This doesn't seem to make much sense.

If all these people can have been sincere spiritual practioners working for the benefit of others (without being funded by the chinese) then why are shugden practicioners to be associated with the chinese just because the Dalai Lama changed his mind?

While logic doesn't follow for these are clearly smear tactics, notice how shugden practioners do well (even if i dont agree with all the wss propoganda) not to mention His Holiness' having been funded by the CIA, which unlike 'Chinese funding'/'murder' accusations is true.

Tenzin
17 December 2008 at 00:46

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org

Blogspot has had a lot of new articles recently that are worth checking out.

For example:

http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/12/open-le...

“The monasteries have been cleansed!” http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/12/tibetan...

and

http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/11/respons...

The Dalai Lama is visiting the Southern India monasteries soon (in Jan) and the poor Shugden monks there are terrified.

Dalai Lama, please give religious freedom. This cannot go on.

Lyara
19 December 2008 at 02:33

Two Christmas Presents for Dorje Shugden practitioners!

Ten Simple Reasons why Dorje Shugden is a Buddha

http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/12/ten-sim...

and

Some Thoughts on the History of a Practice

http://truthaboutshugden.wordpress.com/some-thoughts-on-the-...

Meanwhile, even non-Shugden practitioners just trying to get to the bottom of this problem by checking out articles on the Internet are coming to the inevitable conclusion that the Dalai Lama's ban is just wrong. Plain wrong. For example,

http://maramyfriend.blogspot.com/2008/12/dorje-shugden-part-...

http://mountainphoenixovertibet.blogspot.com/2008/10/evil-sp...

And there has been an increasing amount of press on the subject, for example:

France 24 : http://www.france24.com/en/20080808-dalai-lama-demons-india-...

Al Jazeera : http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/10/dal...

The Dalai Lama will not be able to get away with this for much longer, and religious freedom will be restored whether he likes it or not.

All we want from you for Christmas in 2008, Dalai Lama, is religious freedom.