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204 comments from readers

Lucy James
29 August 2008 at 12:14

And is it not more forward-looking to take the politics out of the religion, whether in Tibet, China or wherever? For everyone to have the freedom to practise Buddhism free from political or cultural constraints? “Tibetan Buddhism” is for Tibetans, but we also need English Buddhism, American Buddhism, Brazilian Buddhism, Indian Buddhism, global Buddhism. (Also, if Tibetan Buddhism and politics remain mixed, it is harder for the Chinese to allow religious freedom within Tibet because then to grant religious freedom is to grant political power.)

Lucy James
29 August 2008 at 12:21

Talking about "guesthouses" not letting you in, please see today's blog www.WisdomBuddhaDorjeShugden.blogspot.com

There it shows the posters saying "No Shugden practitioners allowed". It also shows how the discrimination policy has spread to Dharma Centres in the West. It shows the wall at Ganden monastery, separating monk from monk. It shows the wanted posters put up in Queens for the monks attending peaceful WSS demonstrations. It has videos of Tibetans and others giving testimonies. It aso has a wealth of other videos, background articles, and regular updates on this whole subject. There is also a website: www.WisdomBuddhaDorjeShugden.org that is very useful for background information.

Thank you Mr Gorter for writing these blogs and thank you New Statesman for allowing our voices to be heard.

Tibet for Tibetans
29 August 2008 at 12:21

::KNOWN SHUGDEN CULT MEMBERS ON WANTED LIST::

Known Shugden cult members, Lobsang Chodak & Tenzil Choezim are listed on the C.B.I (Indian equivalent of the F.B.I) WANTED LIST: (see CBI Website Wanted List),

in connection to the triple murder of Geshe Lobsang and two students. The CBI state that the two have sought refuge with the Chinese Government in Tibet.

Amnesty International on Dorje Shugden

(AI, USA | June 1998)

Amnesty International (AI) has received and studied a large amount of material alleging human rights abuses against worshippers of the Tibetan Buddhist deity Dorje Shugden. These alleged abuses are reported to have happened largely in Tibetan settlements in India. None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses. AI campaigns on the grave violations of human rights in Tibet.

EXTRACT FROM AMNESTY REPORT

Douglas Chalmers
29 August 2008 at 12:24

Governments-in-exile are ever doomed. Poland was a classic example of an expatriate refugee elite who wished to preserve their monarchy and their precious status quo from the pre-WW2 years.

In the end, though, it was the peasant workers in Poland who brought about the changes that triggered the collapse of the entire Soviet Union and brought down "the Wall". That IS democracy.

Things are already changing in Tibet, have already changed for the better, and there is nothing that the old guard in exile can do about it. Their life is now in the West where they live. The difference is that China is succeeding now whereas the former USSR failed in its own existence.

If they want to help, they can folllow the example of the KMT businessmen from Taiwan who helped the PRC in mainland China with their expertise and investment and efforts to improve things. But they had to bury their past enmities first.

Tibet is not and has not been the main centre for Buddhism for quite some time. Ever since the 1800's invasion by Nepal and the later invasion in 1903 by Britain, things have changed. Even Sri Lanka is no longer the centre it once for Buddhism was as the dominant Singhala contend with the Tamil minority and spill blood.

The monks in Burma/Myanmar have proved by their actions that theirs is a better path. Those in Taiwan also fund the teaching and dissemination of the Buddhist literature around the world. All the Tibetans can do is moan about themselves when they are comparatively well looked after as an autonomous region of One China.

Robert Thomas
29 August 2008 at 12:46

TibetforTibetans is, as he did on the previous post mis-quoting and changing the menaing of the Amnesty quote. It is not that "None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses", but that "None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within AI's mandate for action".

The meaning of "actionable human rights abuses" s is explained as " (the) linked criteria of state accountability and the exercise of state force, neither of which could clearly be identified within the CTA context" because TGIE is not a "state". (ref Human Rights in Global Perspective, Routelidge ISBN 0-415-30410-5).

Robert Thomas
29 August 2008 at 12:51

Hey TibetforTibetans, i'd like to add "BuddhismforEveryone" as another thought. Plus, to further your interesting statement concerning the suspects of the terrible murder of Geshe Lobsang, did you know that "KNOWN DALAI LAMA FOLLOWERS ALSO ARE SUSPECTED OF CRIMES" and "90% OF ALL CRIMES ARE COMMITTED WITHIN 24 HOURS OF THE CULPRIT EATING BREAD!" In other words, your points bring us no nearer to any meaningful truth.

Friendoftruth
29 August 2008 at 12:56

These last days I gave the political background of the religious persecution of the Dalai Lama against the Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Today I would like to extract from the Shugdensociety.info’s treasury the information about the escape of the Dalai Lama from Tibet and the influence of oracles in his decisions.

SPIRIT WORSHIPPING?

The demonstrations staged against the Dalai Lama this summer of 2008 had placards demanding: STOP LYING. Of course, for those who don’t know about the issue it’s terribly shocking to read such words. But the truth is that the Dalai Lama and his government, as soon as they realized that they were at risk because of this issue, started denying its existence. The extent and intensity of the untruthful statements is difficult to catalog but it entails the twisting of historical data, and alternate discourses –one for Tibetans, another for Western ears.

The Dalai Lama is saying that he prohibited the practice of Dorje Shugden to preserve Buddhism from becoming spirit worshipping. But the presence of Protectors of the Dharma is as old as Buddhism and all 4 sects of Tibetan Buddhism have a multitude of deities like Dorje Shugden.

And he himself, the Dalai Lama, consults oracles almost on a daily basis. This was the subject of “A scratch on the Teflon Lama”, an article by Newsweek that –although ignoring his attacks on the human rights of the practitioners– points nevertheless to the fact that “All Tibetan Buddhists worship protector gods and spirits like Dorje Shugden” and that “…he, too, believes in gods and spirits”.

And among those hundreds of celestial beings he chose only Dorje Shugden to defame? Obviously the “protection from spirit worshipping” is just an invention to justify the religious persecution.

Here it’s worth mentioning the influence of oracles in the thoughts and decisions of the Dalai Lama, quoting directly from the Shugden Charitable Society material.

THE STATE ORACLE OF TIBET

BECOMES JEALOUS OF DORJE SHUGDEN

The reasons for the Dalai Lama's ban on the Protector have become a source of much speculation. One easily recognized factor is the increasing influence of the state oracle over the Dalai Lama since the 70's.

The Tibetan state oracle system goes back to a pre-Buddhist time and consultation of the state oracle has proven constructive at times, but also destructive at other times. For this reason, the state oracle was not consulted during the Dalai Lama’s escape in 1959.

The Escape of the Dalai Lama

All details of the remarkable escape of the Dalai Lama and his entourage to India were arranged by a secret committee consisting of the two tutors of His Holiness, the abbot of Sera-Mey, a few reliable members of the cabinet, the Lord Chamberlain, and the leader of the Khampa Guerilla organization. But the key to the miraculous escape was the advice and guidance given by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche after secretly consulting Dorje Shugden through his most reliable oracle, the Panglung Kuten.

Multiple efforts to distort this historical truth by publishing new 'historical' books, films etc. where the intervention of the Protector is ignored cannot change the facts of history, still intact by the presence of living eye-witnesses of the time: some old monks, who accompanied His Holiness on that secret journey as his life guards are still living; their testimony was shown on Swiss TV in January 1998. They now sadly are victims of this discrimination. Mr. Lithang Atar, an active member of the Khampa-guerilla, left his testament for the world on a video-recording, before he passed away in 2006.

The great help of Dorje Shugden not only for the escape but also in earlier circumstances had pleased the Dalai Lama so deeply, that he composed a beautiful praise to the deity. Both in Tibet and in exile he showed him his great favour, so that even in his private ritual monastery, Namgyal Dratsang, the puja of this Protector was regularly offered along with pujas for a host of other protector deities of ancient Tibet and past and present Dalai Lamas.

This caused the state oracle to become deeply jealous and it began to exert a deceptive influence on His Holiness and some other persons in order to change the positive picture of Dorje Shugden.

VARIATIONS ON SLANDER

Once started, the slander varied and worsened year by year.

1-First the state oracle started off saying, "Dorje Shugden is a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)".

2-Then he said "the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group".

3-Then it was "Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama."

4-At another occasion: "Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen" (as it is well-known).

5-At other times: "Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government."

6-Then he said: "Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master."

7-And then: "Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Choe Kyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government.”

8-Finally the state oracle adopted as his assistants two new oracles, a man and a woman that came from Tibet, claiming to speak for a certain Tibetan god and goddess. They at once joined in his efforts of denouncing Dorje Shugden. Their slander of Dorje Shugden took its heaviest form in the beginning of the nineties, by blaming him as "a Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong in the Tibetan government, most harmful for the freedom of Tibet, and heaviest of all, harmful for the life of His Holiness”.

This last one was the reason for the ban on Dorje Shugden given by the Dalai Lama himself.

_____________________________

This information deserves to be not only remembered but also put in a certain context given by Ven. Helmut Gassner, who was years ago an interpreter for the Dalai Lama. His extraordinary, moving article (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/HelmutGassner01.pdf) called "Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden" portrays the Tibetan leader as a person most impressionable, very easily influenced by others.

Seeing the Dalai Lama going around the world influencing world leaders it sounds improbable that he could be so impressionable. This seems to be the case, though. What is dreadful is to observe that in a display of late adolescent rebellion one day he decided to abandon the influence of his holy teachers and chose to lend an ear to politically motivated characters and a bunch of oracles. So much suffering was thus originated!

_____________________________

Reading all the material about this matter one can perceive the different levels of motivations for the Dalai Lama's actions. Someone has mentioned that the great Lamas said that the Dalai Lama was ill. Although we don't know the exact meaning of this statement right now, it's something to keep stored in our minds as an important piece of information.

Of course, with old age coming upon him there is no much time left for great changes now in his mind. But who knows? Miracles can happen. For us, beyond our duty to expose the truth to the world, we have hidden in our heart the impossible dream, the wild hope that one day we are going to have back with us the Dalai Lama of our youth, that smiling projection of our mind's most sublime aspirations.

May be one day his terribly mistaken obsession against a holy Buddha Protector and against the practitioners of Je Tsongkapa's teachings will end.

May all happiness prevail for all beings!_____________________

Intothevoid
29 August 2008 at 13:25

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Let no man judge another.

Stay with the root guru in your heart.

People suffer the world over, this is samsara, our training ground, lest we forget.

Dharma is omniescent - it is the dharma that pacifies the mind, not its teachers.

Everyone suffering everywhere should be prayed for at all times.

All want to be happy, some are deluded, and many suffer, from both sides of this debate.

Conventional truths are relative to ones own perspective.

Continue to dissolve the conventional into the ultimate truth of emptiness and no one will stray.

The dieties evolved of today are sign posts, refuges - choose and take refuge in the ones that point

out the path to your individual enlightenment - and let no one tell you you are wrong.

No one has dominion over your mind aside from you.

If your sangha involves you in politik, spiritual or otherwise - then practice alone according to your good heart.

All barriers and divisions are false, raised only by the mind of mankind.

All must take down the sails that invite the storms of negativity to distract them from the bodhisattva path.

May all equalize themselves with others before uttering a word.

Do not wait for enlightment to be charitable.

Many across this world need you now.

May all be compassionate and tolerant during these times.

Buddha be praised.

bengrimwood
29 August 2008 at 14:49

Personally, I don't think the Dalai Lama is making a power grab for the four scools for his own ends in order to return as the supreme ruler of Tibet, he has waited a bit late in life for that and I don't think it is in his heart, it just doesn't seem to add up. He has even said that should they return he would be delighted to return to simple yogic and meditation practices. It has been extremely interesting to read on pre-annexed Tibet this week though. I hope if the Tibetans return from exile there will be a modernization and the Dalai Lama will return to his normal role. As far as the Shugden ban, I am not a practioner of his myself but it seems a shame HHDL considered it necessary, it has certainly had negative repercussions. He seems to have taken the view that Shugden is a sectarian and as someone who has not been against the Ri-me movement, that would naturally be offensive to him. Well, one thing is for sure, both sides will be well prepared for September 12th. Delhi's High Court will be an interesting place. I don't think anyone from any side could state with certainty that ultimate truth is on their side and what the karmic repecussions will be for each side. To do so would be horrible judgmental as Mr intothevoid says.

Gail D
29 August 2008 at 15:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sjsY3UgFto

perhaps shows the reason why it is time for a change.

Gail D
29 August 2008 at 15:10

To measure how deep the crisis goes, consider the following statement by Ngawang Tenpa, Officer of the Cholsum organization, the largest regional group in Tibetan politics:

"It is possible to think of a time when we will make friends with the Chinese, but with these (Dorje Shugden) people - never."

These blogs have mainly been about the influence of the Dalai Lama's actions on Tibetans in India and elsewhere. The question is, does this affect Western Buddhists?

Western Buddhist Centers with a connection to the Dalai Lama have also been signing declarations promising not to engage in the Shugden practice or to allow into their Center anyone who does.

In the FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition) Handbook, Lama Zopa says:

"All those who offer service or teach in FPMT centers are committed to follow the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As an example, His Holiness has prohibited the practice of the so-called protector, Do Gyel (Shugden), so teachers or others affiliated with the FPMT should not engage in this practice."

This also extends to ordination. From the IMI/FPMT website:

Students considering ordination should also:

* have had Buddhist refuge for at least five years,

* have lived with lay vows for at least three years,

* NOT be a Shugden practitioner,

* be at least 20 years of age, etc etc

This is even though Lama Zopa says about himself and his teacher, the Founder of the FPMT:

"Of course, Lama and I practiced Dorje Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances."

This suppression of religious freedom and private belief amongst Western practitioners is even more ironic and tragic given that about 70% of their lineage Gurus were renowned Dorje Shugden practitioners! Where is their lineage now? It seems to start and end with the Dalai Lama (who is, interestingly enough, placed alone and above all the other great Lamas on the lineage Guru page, including his own teachers). The Dalai Lama is clearly destroying the established and ancient spiritual lineage not only of Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners but of Westerners too.

This February, the Dalai Lama sent the FPMT Centers the same referendum as in India with the two questions about (1) whether they reject the Protector Dorje Shugden and (2) whether they support Dorje Shugden practitioners.

This so-called "poll" does not lead to actual physical persecution as the Dalai Lama has no political power in the West to back it up (though, he does control the disbursement of considerable financial resources to these centers). But causing Westerners to swear that they are going to discriminate against others based on their religious faith is not only non-Buddhist, but creates disharmony and mistrust between the many European and American FPMT Buddhist Centers and the many Western Buddhist Centers who do rely upon Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden.

Many Dorje Shugden practitioners in the West, both Westerners and Tibetans, have been forced to remain anonymous for fear of becoming a target of the Dalai Lama's criticism and developing a bad reputation. They are falsely accused of being demon-worshippers, Chinese agents, sectarian cult members, and so on. Because of the Dalai Lama's unquestioned reputation in the West, the media have often believed him over the explanations of Dorje Shugden practitioners, and so have portrayed Dorje Shugden practitioners with a negative bias.

Gail D
29 August 2008 at 15:12

Sadly, it does not end there.

This is the latest discrimination by the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT)

Dorje Shugden practitioners are now completely outcast from the FPMT in the West as well, even though the Founder of the FPMT, Lama Yeshe, practiced Dorje Shugden until his death, as did many of the lineage masters mentioned on their teachers page. Lama Yeshe’s senior disciples relying upon Dorje Shugden have already either had to go underground or give up their life commitment to Lama Yeshe in order to stay as a teacher or ordained person in the FPMT. Now they have to do this merely to attend teachings. This is a sickening echo to the Jim Crow “separate but equal” laws segregating blacks and whites in the American south, except that Shugden practitioners are now officially not just separate but unequal.

From the FPMT website: "Restriction: FPMT has recently issued a new policy regarding the Shugden practice in accordance with the wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Lama Zopa Rinpoche has expressed the wish "not to have a guru-disciple relationship with anyone who is practicing Shugden."

This is a clear policy of discrimination against other Buddhists. It is extraordinary that it has been enacted, let alone advertised on their website, in this 21st Century.

Since Lama Zopa is still the nominal head of the FPMT, this means that Tibetan politics has now irreversibly permeated the FPMT. It means that not even Lama Zopa's precious teachers, Trijang Rinpoche (or his reincarnation) or Lama Yeshe, would be allowed to attend Lama Zopa's teachings.

FPMT members have long accused the Dorje Shugden practitioners in the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) of being a sectarian cult. The irony is that the NKT is an open and tolerant organization that has never turned anyone away from a teaching due to their religious beliefs. That this religious belief is the 400-year old practice passed down through generations of fully accomplished Buddhist masters, including half the lineage Gurus of the FPMT, is beyond comprehension.

Lucy James
29 August 2008 at 16:05

Gail, it is interesting to see the effects of the Dalai Lama's policy on Buddhism in general, not just in Tibet. But on this subject, I have also thought that this dark cloud could have a silver lining. And please take the following just as my personal opinion.

An earlier poster quoted this:

*Ewa (interviewer): "Your Holiness, what would you say to the Western "Buddhists" for whom the Tibetan political issue is completely distant from the religion, which they have so enthusiastically adopted?"

*H.H. the Dalai Lama: "Oh, that is wrong! Tibetan freedom is very much linked with the Tibetan Buddhism. Without Tibetan freedom, the Tibetan Buddhism cannot survive..."

Perhaps if the Dalai Lama were the true head of Buddhism worldwide and Tibet were the only true home of Buddhism (so he needs everyone’s undying support to save it from being overrun by Chinese), it would be a mistake to question him and better to preserve the status quo. But these things are not true.

As I mentioned earlier today, is it not more forward-looking to take the politics out of the religion? To have the freedom to practise Buddhism free from political or cultural constraints? “Tibetan Buddhism” is great for Tibetans, but we also need English Buddhism, American Buddhism, Brazilian Buddhism, global Buddhism. (We already have, of course, Sri Lankan Buddhism, Taiwanese Buddhism, and so on.)

I therefore disagree with the Dalai Lama's assessment that "without Tibetan freedom, the Tibetan Buddhism cannot survive.". I think Tibetans can practice the Buddhism of their forefathers in any country they find themselves in where the government allows freedom of religion (including and increasingly, we pray, in China). This is not a political statement. I am not commenting on whether or not Tibet should be free in general -- simply on the connection between this freedom and the survival of the Buddhism that comes through Tibet. It is an emotive argument often used against us for opposing the Dalai Lama on religious freedom issues, but I don't think it is correct.

The immigration officer in my line a few days ago was an African American with a gentle expression, who eagerly asked me not the usual questions of where I’d been and why, but “Are you a Kadampa?” (Kadampa is another word for Gelugpa, or Ganden, used by the followers of Atisha and Je Tsongkhapa). As I expressed astonishment at his powers of perception, he whipped out his rosary to show me that it was exactly like the one I was wearing on my wrist. He then whipped out a well thumbed Western Kadampa Dharma book called “Eight Steps to Happiness” , which he clearly reads whenever he gets the chance. He told me he attended Kadampa Buddhist teachings nearby.

What struck me talking to him is that he was a regular modern person who practices Buddhism freely in his daily life and culture without feeling the need to buy into the politics, culture or mystique of Tibet, or the antipathy to China, and so on. He was not Tibetan, had not experienced their political history at all, and yet miraculously the Buddhism that came from India and Tibet through the kindness of his spiritual teachers was now changing his life.

If the myth and strait jacket of the Dalai Lama as the Pope of Buddhism and Tibet as the Buddhist Shangri-la are dispelled (through the Dalai Lama's own political heavy-handedness), this could pave the way for the Buddhism that originally came from India and then Tibet to adapt and survive for longer. It could become a democratic, culturally appropriate, practical, modern-day Buddhism, which could then take root all over our troubled world. It could mean that culturally diverse Buddhist masters (male and female) are free to maintain Buddhist traditions in every country. It could just help millions of regular people achieve their potential for inner peace and compassion.

Dharmakara
29 August 2008 at 18:41

The idea that "without Tibetan freedom, the Tibetan Buddhism cannot survive" is as ridiculous as saying a monk is not a monk without a temple. It reeks of "identity" and "clinging" all rolled up in one, it has nothing to do with the Buddha-dharma.

Geronimo
29 August 2008 at 19:20

Dalai Lama & Free Tibet :

U.S. CIA , Nazi SS , Slavery , Serfdom

Genocide in Tibet , Cultural Genocide

Compassion & Vegetarian , Nobel Peace Prize

Religious Freedom & Persecution , Human Rights

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Truth of History = Not to be Brain-washed

The Chinese provincial system was implemented by its Mongol rulers of the Chinese Yuan Dynasty in the late 13th century and then the Qing Dynasty. During the Chinese Qing Dynasty, Mongolia and Tibet or XiZang (Tibet Autonomous Region) were tied together in the Manchus’ imperial management through their mutual military and religious influence, and the military role of the Mongols in the service of the Chinese Qing empire. The Chinese Mongolian–Tibetan enterprise was central to the Qing Dynasty to maintain a delicate balance of multi-ethnic power within united China.

Soon, the Russians used force to consolidate control over Chinese Mongolia.

The British, through India, tried to consolidate its control in the Chinese Tibet.

Together, the Russian and British unseated the dependency management of the Chinese Qing Empire and undercut the Chinese historical connections of the Tibet or XiZang (Tibet Autonomous Region) , and the Mongolia.

Mongolia was a Chinese province (1691-1911), an autonomous state under Russian protection (1912-19), and again a Chinese province (1919-21). Later, taking advantage of the extreme turmoil situation in China, the Russian again interfered in Mongolia (Russia was bound in Inner Mongolian affairs by Secret treaties with Japan). In 1921, the Soviet troops occupied the Outer Mongolia and supported the independence of Outer Mongolian in 1924. In the Yalta conference, the Russian promised US to break the neutrality pact with Japan, instead declare WWII against Japan. In return, US agreed to Soviet's colonial privileges in China and also agreed to the independence of Outer Mongolia from China as part of a secret deal behind China's back. Therefore, in 1949 the Russian forced China which had just coming to power after years Chinese Civil War, into accepting the permanent separation of the Outer Mongolia from China in 1950.

Ironically, in reality, the independent Outer Mongolia was quite obvious an anomalous creation by the foreign powers because MAJORITY of the Mongol population are actually living across the border INSIDE the current Chinese Inner Mongolia region.

British invaded the Chinese Tibet twice, i.e. in 1888 and 1903 and occupied Lhasa in 1904. The British's intention was to separate Tibet from Chinese control, but with only limited success. Instead British started to encourage the Tibetans to seek independence. Therefore, later British suggested dividing Chinese Tibet into Outer and Inner Tibet based on the forced model of the Russian over Mongolia. However, China is determined not to make the same mistake to the Taiwan , Tibet influenced by the foreign powers behind Dalai Lama which was clearly documented in the released files in the CIA archive from the U.S. Dept. of State related to Dalai Lama and his U.S. CIA's secret war in Tibet.

In Oct 1998, Dalai Lama finally confessed that they were funded by the U.S. CIA to train and pay for guerrilla warfare against China, the Tibetan government-in-exile said in a statement. It added that the subsidy earmarked for the Dalai Lama was spent on setting up offices in Geneva and New York and on international lobbying against China.

Since 13th century during the Chinese Yuan Dynasty, the Chinese government had already directly adminstered the Tibet. China directly created the 1st Grand Lama. In 1571, Altan Khan, a descendant of the first Emperor of Chinese Yuan Dynasty Kublai Khan, received the title Shunyi Wang ("Obedient and Righteous King") from the Longqing Emperor of Chinese Ming dynasty. In 1578, Altan Khan invited Sonam Gyatso, a Tibetan monk of the Gelug (Yellow Hat) school to Mongolia. On his arrival, the Khan addressed him in Mongol by the name of Dalai Lama. Therefore, Sonam Gyatso later gave himself the title of 3rd Dalai Lama, and retrospectively gave the same title to his 2 predecessors. Since then, ALL subsequent Dalai Lamas including the current 14th Dalai Lama would have to be installed the same way in accordance with this centuries old Chinese-Tibetan administrative tradition, i.e. approved by the central government and with an attending Chinese minister.

However, due to the Lama's recognized divine status and its association with the political power and benefits, Tibetan high priests often used their influence to bribe and cheat the ancient selection process of the next child to be the reincarnated Dalai Lama successor for their own benefits. As a result, five Dalai Lamas were either killed or murdered by their own high priests or other courtiers. Finally, to stop the endless killing and murder by the Tibetan high priests, in 1792, the Chinese Emperor Qianlong of the Qing Dynasty instituted a system of selecting the next child Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama by means of a lottery with all the names and birth years of the selected competing child candidates written in 3 languages, i.e. Manchu, Chinese and Tibetan, on ivory slips which were then placed in a golden urn to be used in the Chinese Emperor approved lottery procedure for selecting the next successor. Since then, the lottery selection procedure had always been followed as the Chinese-Tibetan administrative tradition except in the situations of which the Chinese Emperor would issue an order waiving the use of the golden urn.

On Feb 22, 1940, Tenzin Gyatso was enthroned as the current 14th Dalai Lama at the Potala Palace in a ceremony presided over by Wu Zhongxin, minister of the Commission for Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs of the Republic of China (1911-49). The nationalist government of Chiang Kai-shek, ordered that he be confirmed as the reincarnated soul boy of the 13th Dalai Lama without the requirement to carrying the established method of drawing lot from the golden urn. In fact, the Chinese government even allocated 400,000 silver dollars to cover the expenses of the current 14th Dalai Lama's enthronement ceremony.

In the book "Shangri-La" is a mythical Himalayan utopia, earthly paradise guided by the lamasery of the Tibetan Buddhism.

Was Tibet the harmonious place of Shangri-La Human Rights under Dalai Lama ? :

Before 1959, "Free Tibet" was only a dream in a serfdom and slavery society under the current 14th Dalai Lama. Most land and wealth were owned by few lamas and rich secular landlords. The MAJORITY i.e. 95 % of Tibetan population were just serfs and slaves without ANY Human Rights. Serf were under a lifetime slavery to the lord's land or the monastery’s land with no pay, schooling or medical care. The Human Rights of the serfs were as worse as the Tibetan slaves. Unlike the slaves, the serfs also had to support themselves. The overlords had no responsibility for the serfs at all. Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants or slaves without any Human Rights . Young boys were regularly taken and trained as monks, commonly sexually mistreated in the monasteries. The serfs were also saddled by numerous taxation items with old debts sometimes passed down from generation to generation. Serfs and slaves were told their lack of freedom and Human Rights were due to the bad karma in their previous lives. Many ran away and resisted. Once captured, the favored torture and mutilation included eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation etc. The punishment law was codified in the 13th century by the Sakyapa sect, derived from the Yasa (statute-book) of Genghis Khan, like the penal system of the European Middle Ages, was extremely cruel.

For details, refer to Friendly Feudalism: the Tibet Myth.

At first, the Chinese government moved slowly, relying mostly on persuasion to change Tibetan's serfdom system. No aristocratic or monastic property was confiscated, and feudal lords continued to reign over their hereditarily bound serfs. However, for the rich lamas and secular lords, the Communist intervention was an unmitigated calamity. With the extensive support and funding from the U.S. , Dalai Lama and CIA staged a proxy war. However, the majority of the serfs and slaves refused to join in and soon the US CIA proxy war failed and fled to India.

Together, the U.S. , Britain, India and other Western countries continue so called "Free Tibet" movement to this day through the disguised U.S. government agency the National Endowment for Democracy NED : CIA of the 21st century, described by the NED’s first acting president Allen Weinstein : "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA" . . . . NED , AEI , FNF are behind the "Crimson Revolution" for Tibet. The Tibetans' riot in 2008 before the Beijing Olympic games could be another U.S. CIA's "Great Game".

In the meantime, many Western media greatly distorted or fabricated the reporting of Tibetan riot : part 1 , part 2 , 3 which had evoked a Canadian angry response, and triggered the birth of a chinese netizens' anti-CNN website. Under pressure, CNN was forced to respond with its CNN statement on Tibet coverage which was immediately rejected by the netizens with Statement on "CNN statement on Tibet coverage". After the riots in Tibet, CNN Jack Cafferty said "I think they're basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they’ve been for the last 50 years". His comment has forced CNN president to issue its 2nd formal apology to the Chinese people after the CNN's 1st apology was rejected by China.

It is an extreme irony that U.S. wanted to abolish the black African Slavery in America through US civil war , but in China , U.S. had tried its very best to preserve the Slavery and Serfdom in Tibet through U.S. proxy war.

It is another extreme irony that U.S. ensures the Separation of the Church and State in its Constitution , but in China , U.S. had tried its very best to preserve the Theocracy in Tibet through U.S. proxy war.

Again another extreme irony that U.S. regarded the secession of its Southern states as rebellion and was put down by U.S. Civil War, but in China , U.S. had tried its very best to separate Tibet from China through U.S. proxy war.

Whatever wrongs and oppressions introduced by the Chinese government after 1959, NO one could deny the fact that Chinese government did "Free Tibet" by abolishing Tibetan Slavery and Serfdom system and restored most Human Rights, eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. Expropriated the landed estates owned by lords and lamas, distributed many thousands of acres to tenant farmers and landless peasants, established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa.

Population at the time inside Tibet was only about 2 .5 million. Patrick French, the former "Free Tibet Compaign director" told the truth : "The Free Tibet Campaign in London and other groups have long claimed that 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed by the Chinese since they invaded in 1950. However, after scouring the archives in Dharamsala while researching my book on Tibet, I found that there was no evidence to support that figure". This is independently confirmed by Professor Sautman, a reseacher specialized in studying Tibetan populations , and Professor Goldstein, Co-Director of The Center for Research on Tibet. Both confirmed: "They use the figure of 1.2 million Tibetans dying from the 1950s to the 1970s, but no source for this is given. As a lawyer I give no credence to statistics for which there is no data, no visible basis" for the genocide. The same conclusion that the accusation does not stand on any basis, has been reached by almost all academic scholars and many pro-Tibet advocaters.

Barry Sautman, Associate Professor of Social Science at the Hong Kong University said, "In fact the state sponsored transfer to Tibet is on a small scale.... Most people serve only 3 years and then return to China. Those who move on their own to the Tibet Autonomous Region usually return to China in a few years.... These facts are supported by Australian and U.S. demographers. Claims of [Han] ethnic swamping in Tibet are misleading...." and greatly exaggerated by the Tibetan exiles. If fact, the same thing happens in all other countries when people move around due to economic developments. It is just as many Tibetans move outside to other neighbouring provinces for the economic opportunities.

The Chinese authorities admit their "mistakes" particularly during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution when the persecution of religious beliefs occurred in the entire China, NOT just Tibet. Since then, many monasteries have been restored. As of 2007, Tibetan Buddhism was still practiced widely and tolerated by officialdom. Religious pilgrimages and other standard forms of worship were allowed but within limits. All monks and nuns had to sign a loyalty pledge that they would not use their religious position to foment secession or dissent. And displaying photos of the Dalai Lama was illegal since he is still branded as a separatist by the governmenmt.

"Rather than finding Tibetan tradition being destroyed by Chinese", concludes Tyler Denison in his cultural research, titled "Reaffirmation of 'Ritual Cosmos': Tibetan Perceptions of Landscape and Socio-Economic Development in Southwest China", published in 2006, "I witnessed firsthand the importance of Kawa Karpo and the ritual cosmos in the lives of the Tibetans of Deqin county: it has not been diminished......."

Barry Sautman, associate professor of Social Science at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology in his study "Tibet and the (Mis-)Representation of Cultural Genocide, "Instruction in primary school is pretty universally in Tibetan. Chinese is bilingual from secondary school onward. All middle schools in the TAR also teach Tibetan. In Lhasa there are about equal time given to Chinese, Tibetan, and English". Being fluent in Chinese and English also broaden their future employment opportunities.

It is an extreme irony that Dalai Lama and exiles themselves abolished Tibetan and adopted English as the SOLE language in their schools, and only became bilingual in 1994. The Tibetan exiles leaders shed their own traditional culture, sends their children to expensive English boarding schools. As the Dalai Lama's authorised biographer, Roger Hicks, describes in details how Dalai Lama's younger generation has become largely "Cultural Genocided" by exiles themselves and the West.

Despite flaws, rights in China have expanded. A Pew Global Attitudes survey published in July 2008 found an astounding 86 % of Chinese were content with their country’s direction, double the % in 2002. Only 23 % of Americans polled said they were satisfied in the same survey.

The West often view China through the prism of the Cultural Revolution and the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown and believes that the Chinese public is media manipulated through the information control by Beijing. If the Chinese had access to real facts, Westerners think, the public attitudes would be different. The reality is that some of the strongest anger toward the West is coming from liberal Western-educated Chinese intellectuals who have access to accurate information. Unlike in 1989, when Chinese all over the world, including scholars and students from the mainland, protested against the government Tiananmen massacre. This time, Chinese people have taken to streets in support of Beijing. After the Tibetan riot and Olympic relay disruptions, such rallies have taken places in many cities of Europe, US, and Canada . Many Westerners who still believe the new China is the same as the old, are utterly ignorant or ideological, perhaps both. Contrary to many who believe the Olympic is a government propaganda showcase, in reality, the ordinary Chinese enthusiastically support the Beijing Olympics. For the Chinese, the Olympic games is the realization of a dream deferred more than 100 years by the colonial invasion, colonial exploitation, revolution, civil war and misrule.

For the past 30 years, China has undergone dramatic changes, so is Tibet with its living standard being dramatically improved after Dalai Lama's slavery & serfdom era. As the Tibet historian A. Tom Grunfeld points out, "Tibet has roads, schools, hospitals, a burgeoning middle class, internet cafes, karaoke bars, discos, and some 100,000 tourists annually. Religion is widely practiced. There is a continue upsurge of practicing traditional arts, crafts, poetry and painting by the Tibetans benefited from the infrastructure and growing tourist visitors.

Giant injections of state capital in major infrastructure projects have been driving growth in Tibet in recent years, with GDP rising an average of 12% per annum. China government subsidies 75% of the TAR's GDP. New air and rail links made possible growth in needed tourism. Incomes have been rising for both rural and urban residents.

However, because Tibetans have already fallen so far behind because of the past serfdom and slavery system under Dalai Lama, the skills differentials has polarized Tibet's economy. While a minority of Tibetans have been rewarded with state jobs, the majority of Tibetans, who are poorly equipped to access new economic opportunities, have been marginalized. Even Tibetan employers in Lhasa and other Tibetan areas admitted that they hire non-Tibetans because they are more skilled and more willing to work regular hours. The managers cited Tibetans' dearth of skills, lack of experience in working fixed hours, and a cultural disposition not inclined to obediently comply.

Tibetans are being left behind by the rapid pace of economic development are complex, and do include cultural and language differences. Non-Tibetans have access to wider networks, capital and better information. But there is NO systematic discrimination of Tibetans by employers—in fact Tibetans are accorded preferential treatment in state jobs. The service industry leaders in Tibetan areas indicates that local employers (Tibetans and non-Tibetans alike) would happily hire Tibetans if they could do the job. Unfortunately, most Tibetans, especially rural Tibetans, simply do not meet employers' needs. The inequality is NOT just a Tibetan local problem, it is a national problem for the whole China's rural farmers being left behind which is closely linked to the skills demanded during economic development.

Contrary to widespread belief, the Chinese One-child policy is ONLY imposed onto the Han enthic Chinese. The One-child policy is NOT imposed upon the rest 55 minorities enthic Chinese including the Tibetan. Tibetan families are allowed to have a maximum of 3-childs. If over, just pay a very small fines or may be denied some child services of which none were available under the Dalai Lama's serfdom system. However, the penalty is often NOT imposed. On the contrary, the Han Chinese families with more than one child are always face much harsher penalties. "Tibetan families in Tibet average 3.8 children, even larger than Tibetan families in India. In 1990 Tibetans were 95% of the Tibet's population. There has been no dramatic change in the region's ethnic balance." said Barry Sautman.

In Chinese Tibet, there is now one monk or nun for every 35 Tibetans, "the highest of any Buddhist country... much higher than the relation of ministers and priests to parishioners in any Christian country in the world...."

More info: see PBS rational debate about Tibet.

Tibet is one of the 5 autonomous regions in China, i.e. the governor and most officials must be Tibetans. The life expectancy is now 65 almost double of 35 during the Slavery and Serfdom under Dalai Lama. The literacy has been raised from 5 % to 80 % by breaking the educational monopoly of Dalai Lama's monasteries. During Dalai Lama's era, the medical care served only the ruling classes, leaving the majority of serfs and slaves with little or no medical care. Now, free medical care is available. Taxes in Tibet are virtually nonexistent. Tibetan farmers, unlike Han Chinese farmers, receive tax-free leases of land. A preferential tax code and low-interest loans are available to Tibetans for their business. Tibetans are allowed to carry their traditional long fighting knife. Education is either free or low fee including university and better funded than most Chinese schools. The Tibetans students, being one of the minorities ethnic Chinese, receive additional 15 points as bonus mark which is not available to any of the Han Chinese student in the China's gaokao - National College Entrance Examination, the most pressure-packed examination in the world for the universities.......etc.

Contrary to the widespread belief, China, in fact, is the ONLY nation on Earth that "discriminates" the majority ethnic in order to protect the minority ethnics including the Tibetans.

The contrast is much sharper, if compared with the treatments received by the native indians in US , the First Nation natives in Canada , the aboriginals in Australia , the indigenous Anui in Japan.

The French senator Jean-Luc Melenchon, in an TV interview said, "It is unbelievable to see certain people who were arguing terribly about the separation of the church and the state, and find it is normal concerning Tibet.... We can't ask for universal rights and then find it normal to see theocracy in Tibet... They can even accept absurdity saying China invaded Tibet. The intervention of Chinese army was due to the Tibetan feudal lords refused to abolish the serfdom... There is NOT a single country in the world who recognizes Tibet (as a state)... Neither did Kosovo demand any independence, but it ended like this, with a US military base. So do not pretend to be naive ! and say that no geopolitical or geostrategic issues are behind this. People are manipulated ! We put forward the events in Tibet and we forget to mention that those incidents started with the Han businessmen massacred [by the Tibetans]......".

Contrary to widespread belief, the Dalai Lama does NOT represent Tibet at all. It is because Tibetan Buddhism has 4 main schools : Gelug , Nyingma , Sakya , Kagyu. The Dalai Lama belongs to the Gelug (Yellow Hat sect). Even within Gelug, he is only one of the 2 most respected "living budda", the another one is Panchen Lama. The Dalai Lama ONLY represent the Tibetans of North Central Tibet (centered with City of Lhasa), which is about 30 % of entire Tibetan population. In the other areas : the entire South Central Tibet (centered with City of Xigaze) worships Panchen Lama only. The Eastern Tibet only believes the NyingMa (the Red Hat sect). Therefore, the Dalai Lama does NOT represent ALL Tibetans.

In June 2008, in a meeting with members of the European Parliament, the Chinese Tibetologists were asked why the Dalai Lama is still branded as a separatist while he has repeatedly said he is seeking autonomy of Tibet, not independence, that has been well received across the world. However, very few people care to understand the true nature of Dalai Lama's autonomy, not independence, 'Middle-Way Approach' : The Dalai Lama has demanded the withdrawal of Chinese troops from Tibetan populated areas and the relocation of other ethnic groups, which have been living there for hundreds of years. He also asks for rights to establish representatives in foreign countries. These autonomy proposals threaten China's sovereignty, said the researcher.

Heinrich Harrer, the author of "Seven Years in Tibet" based on which produced a film by Hollywood, was a member of Nazi SS sent to Tibet by Hitler and Heinrich Himmler. The Dalai Lama invited this Nazi SS member to become his personal "mentor" and "teacher" from early age until the 50s, and was given a top post in the Dalai Lama government in exile. Dr. Bruno Beger, another member of Nazi SS who performed lethal medical racial experiments, was also given a top post in the Dalai Lama government in exile. Augusto Pinochet, supported and funded by CIA, the Butcher of Chile whom the Dalai Lama urged not to be sent to Spain for trial of his crimes against humanity. Details about Dala Lama & Nazi SS : 1 , 2 , 3.

However, Heinrich Harrer, member of Nazi SS, did not paint a rosy picture about Tibet. In his world famous travelogue, Seven Years in Tibet, he writes : "The power of the monks in Tibet is unique and can only be compared to a strict dictatorship".

Dalai Lama declared himself an admirer of Mahatma Gandhi ' s Non-Violent Resistance. Gandhi sought to deter violence between ethnics by living among the Muslims and embarked on a hunger strike against violence. Gandhi starved himself nearly to death, only broke his fast as weeping rioters laid down their machetes at his feet. However, Dalai Lama has never really tried to use direct action to leverage his authority when there was violence in Tibet.

In Tibet, the climate conditions have made it impossible to become a vegetarian monk because the year-round agriculture for producing the vegetable is impossible. The solution was to rely upon a class of individuals to slaughter animals. So the re-interpretation of Buddha's teaching was that it was OK to eat meat if the animal wasn't killed directly for you. But today, the climate conditions are no longer the constraint because of the convinience of food transportation.

At Kalachakra for World Peace 2006, presided over by His Holiness. All the food served to the 200,000 people attending the ceremony was vegetarian. Dalai Lama made a speech in Tibetan criticized factory farming and meat consumption, and said : "If the human community is based on principles of peace, it will lessen the sufferings caused to millions and billions of animals .... are killed and they suffer so much."

Contrary to the widespread belief again, His Holiness himself is NOT a vegetarian. In 1995 Seattle public talk, Dalai Lama said he tried being a vegetarian all the time but found it too difficult and said he eats meat every other day. Dalai Lama now claims that he eats meat on his doctor's advice on liver complications from hepatitis. However, checking with other doctors but none agrees that meat consumption is necessary or even desirable for a damaged liver.

When he attended a state dinner hosted by French President Jacques Chirac, Dalai Lama refused the vegetarian meal and insisted to be served with braised calf’s cheek and crayfish stuffed with shrimp, and said, "I'm a Tibetan monk, NOT a vegetarian". Many worldwide vegetarian and animal activitists have since petitioned His Holiness to convert to a vegetarian for the sake of Buddhism Compassion but are ignored by His Holiness.

Again another extreme irony : the Dalai Lama, a spiritual leader with Buddhism compassion refused to give up his meat eating habit , and was owner of numerous Slaves and Serfs , with Nazi SS as his personal "mentor" and "teacher" , together with the U.S. CIA, initiated a violent proxy War, was ironically awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989 by diminishing the Nobel Peace Prize and Religion to dirty political tools.

Dalai Lama is U.S.'s "Man of Peace" : In an interview, Dalai Lama said he was for Non-Violence "whenever possible", but WAR is justified at times. The particular wars that he thought okay were World War II and the U.S. war on Korea. He thinks the war on Vietnam started out right but ended up badly. Badly for whom, he doesn't say. He praised the U.S. WAR of Afghanistan calling U.S. bombing a "liberation" of the Afghans, invasion and occupation of Iraq WAR might be justified . In 2003, Dalai Lama says Terror may need a VIOLENT reply. Therefore, he was awarded with top U.S. Congress's Gold Medal by Bush in 2007.

Yet again another extreme irony, Dalai Lama himself is now being sued for repressing Tibetan's religious freedom as a "totalitarian dictator", rather than a reincarnation of the Buddha of Compassion. The lawsuit was initiated by the 13th Kundeling Rimpoche in the high court of Delhi in India in 2008 and their lawsuit petition again Dalai Lama. In Nottingham reported by BBC, Buddhists protested Dalai Lama's religious persecution of Dorje Shugden sect of Tibetan's Buddhism. Dalai Lama - Buddhist dictator and hypocrite. Swiss public televion: Oracle that helped Dalai Lama now banned by him. Part 1 . 2 . 3.

The temporal power struggle between Dalai Lama of the Gelugpa sect and the Shugden community actually goes back centuries in the old Tibet.

Since 1996, the Dalai Lama decreed that the worship of Dorje Shugden was 'evil' and issued a formal decree for everyone to stop practising the Dorje Shugden prayer. "In Britain and America, the Dalai Lama is a religious hero. But for many he is a religious dictator" said Kelsang Pema, a leading member of the Western Shugden Society, a group of Buddhists who worship the 'wisdom deity' Dorje Shugden, "Anyone who criticises the Dalai Lama is written off as a Chinese puppet". "Anyone who continued to follow Dorje Shugden got it in the neck" and were threatened, attacked, or home ransacked.

In 2008, the Dalai Lama issued a new proclamation requiring all Tibetans to sign a declaration forsaking the practice forever. Thousands of monks and nuns who refused to sign, were expelled from their monasteries and nunneries, forbidden to associate with other Tibetans. Dalai Lama has even gone on record as saying his own Spiritual Guide and his predecessors through the centuries were wrong, claiming that the Deity known as Dorje Shugden, was actually 'evil'. More details.

Monks vs. Monks : For decades until 1976 when he was 50, Dalai Lama himself included the 400-year-old Buddhist prayer Shugden in his daily prayers.

The Free Tibet Campaign former director Patrick French, writes "Cuddly Dalai Lama is our fantasy creation". Unfortunately, anything which criticizing or contradicting to the exile Tibetan community, regardless the historical truths or the reality of the past and current Tibet, lead not to a self-critical stance towards their own viewpoints, but rather one was insulted and thus considered to be prejudiced, brushes aside and denigrated as the Chinese propaganda.

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June 11, 2008 . "The Dalai Lama has come to Australia to talk about love and compassion but he is not practising what he is preaching," said Kelsang Lhachog, many of them Buddhist monks and nuns chanting "Dalai Lama, Stop Lying" and "Give Religious Freedom" in Sydney, Australia. More details.

July 13, 2008 . Over 400 monks and nuns from 16 countries protest Dalai Lama at Lehigh University and Watch protest video. Those who practice Shugden were expelled and denied their jobs, children schools, medical care and some homes burnt.

July 18, 2008 . Dalai Lama supporters clash with Buddhist sect in New York.

July 20, 2008 . Dalai Lama's visit sparks monks protest in Philadelphia. Kelsang Pema, a spokeswoman for the Western Shugden Society, used the term "Hollywood Monk" in describing the Dalai Lama who is "fostering a campaign of intimidation, humiliation and ostracism" against Tibetans and religious freedom.

July 20, 2008 . 4-member Chinese Tibetologist delegation arrived in New York to promote understanding of Tibet issue, found that many people in US are ignorant about Tibet. "Some legislators even haven't heard about the fact feudal serfdom once existed in Tibet" he said.

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The so-called "Free Tibet" "Human Rights" case is an EXACT COPY of the Iraq War :

Started in 2004, Brithish PM Tony Blair admitted that WMD which is vital to the case for the Iraq war, was wrong. US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said that he hasn't seen "any strong, hard evidence" to link Saddam Hussein and the al-Qaeda terrorists who staged the 9/11 attacks.

Then, a CIA report by US arms inspector of Iraq Survey Group in 1,000 pages concluded U.S. "Almost All Wrong" on Iraq's WMD Weapons.

Finally in 2005, after 2 years intensive search with 1,200 experts, U.S. finally quit the WMD search. Unfortunately, the WMD was the main reason for US to "pre-emptive" invade Iraq. End to search for WMD seals doubts about pre-emption. Later a new presidential commission reported, "We conclude that the intelligence community was dead wrong in almost ALL of its prewar judgments about Iraq's WMD".

The "Dead Wrong" on Iraq WMD completely destroyed U.S. credibility.

In Apr. 2005 CIA final report: No WMD in Iraq: "After more than 18 months, the WMD investigation and debriefing of the WMD-related detainees has been exhausted" Mr Duelfer, head of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), wrote in the 92-page addendum.

Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of the U.N. said, "It was not in conformity with the U.N. charter... From the charter point of view, it was illegal."

U.S. illegal Iraq War based on lies, NOT approved by the U.N., is the biggest blunder in modern history. Ironically, it was also under the same cover of "Human Rights" and "Democracy" and lies to brainwash into a brutal War ------> to get the Iraq's OIL.

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Dharmakara
29 August 2008 at 19:38

Many pro-Tibet supporters downplay the the fact that serfs and slavery was still occuring prior to the Dalai Lama fleeing in 1959, but the National Geographic Society has quite a bit of footage in their archive vaults from their own visits to the region.

Geronimo
29 August 2008 at 20:15

Dalia lama returning to Tibet is a grand idea and I hope he decides to return to his birth place before he passes.

It would bring closure and comfort to the 5,900,000 Tibetans in China and help the aristocratic Tibetans an opportunity to finally merge into their adopted homeland and begin to contribute to the society in constructive ways.

I think it imperative that the exiles begin to grasp the fundamental concepts of the democratic priciples of western countries.

They must come to grips that we seperate church an state and there will never be a theocratic government in the USA or any other western countries.

This would afford the Dalia lama incredible opportunities to bring an income to his fellow Tibetans with the droves of tourist who would certainly come to Tibet to visit the Last Dalia Lama.

Dharmakara
29 August 2008 at 20:39

Yes, the DL returning to Tibet before passing away is a grand idea, but an unrealistic one. China's position on the DL is no different than the US position on Castro, where they won't deal with Cuba until Castro passes away.

Geronimo
29 August 2008 at 20:44

Wishful thinking!

Dharmakara
29 August 2008 at 20:48

There's nothing wrong with hoping for it to happen, that China will take a step forward and show that it is willing to enagage in meaningful dialogue on the issue of Tibet, but the government in exile will not be returning.

Geronimo
29 August 2008 at 23:42

Ethics on parade and who is teaching what? It must be samsara!

QUEBEC - A controversial new ethics and religious culture class to be taught in Quebec schools as of next week is getting a nod from the Dalai Lama, who will travel to the province next year to show his enthusiasm for it.

The head of the Canadian branch of the Dalai Lama Foundation said Friday the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader will pay a two-day visit to Montreal in October 2009 to meet with teachers and teachers-to-be.

"The Dalai Lama has always championed teaching ethics to children in the school system and when he learned that Quebec was introducing this curriculum, he was very happy," said Thubten Samdup, a Montrealer with Tibetan origins.

Samdup told the Nobel Peace Prize winner about Quebec's new class during a recent trip to India, where the Tibetan government-in-exile is based.

The mandatory, non-denominational religion and ethics class will be taught in Quebec's elementary and secondary schools starting next week. Until now, schools have had three options to chose from: Moral Education, Catholic Religious and Moral Instruction, and Protestant Moral and Religious Education.

Students will still learn about the important place of Catholicism and Protestantism in Quebec's religious heritage, but the new curriculum also will focus on other religions such as Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and native spiritualities. For the ethics part of the course, students will reflect on issues such as responsibility, tolerance and justice.

The new class sparked a heated debate in the province and a few hundred parents - mostly Catholics and Protestants - are engaged in a bitter fight with the province's Education Department to be awarded the right to exempt their children from the course. They are worried that if their kids learn about other religions on top of Catholicism or Protestantism, they will become confused by too many choices.

But this spring, the Quebec Assembly of Catholic Bishops decided to give the new class a chance and said it is now up to the families and not to the schools to pass on religious beliefs.

Samdup, a longtime advocate of the new class, convinced the Dalai Lama to come to Quebec to share his views about ethics and religion. He said the spiritual leader will not use his visit to promote Buddhism.

"He will emphasis his opinion that anything we can teach our children when they grow up to become decent human beings and better citizens is very important."

Samdup said Quebec has taken a very bold step in going ahead with this course that, he thinks, could become a model for the rest of the country.

"Our world has become so interdependent today that we really have to know each other, different cultures and traditions, so that we can live in harmony," he said.

Neither the Quebec Education Department, nor a provincewide coalition that has been a vocal opponent of the new curriculum, would comment on the Dalai Lama's position.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 00:03

Geezer: If you're going to point out such things about NKT, why do you lack the courage to point out that these problems exist in one form or another within all branches of Buddhism?

geezer
30 August 2008 at 00:17

Dharmakara, Why does NKT/WSS deny everything?

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 00:21

Sound like you were not ready to become an ordained anything. Maybe you should go to Afghanistan and work off some negative karmas?

Life is work and as you get older, even simple task become blissful.

Like having chilren to raise. You find yourself without a life and your every moment is dealing with another's person needs. Do kids ever thank you for all that a parent is required to perform for them. Not necessarily! One does all of this out of love and duty.

Hang in there and blaming others for our own actions. Mom and Dad expect this type of issues to occur as their children stretch their legs and find their mettle.

I'm certain you'll make a good parent with the list you've accumulated.of dissappointments.

geezer
30 August 2008 at 00:24

Sorry dharmakara, No other branches of Buddhism says like NKT/WSS say "they are PURE and others are not". Other branches of Buddhism practise SECTARISM like NKT/WSS. Their Lama's do not preach teachings from the Yellow book of Shug-dhen.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 00:30

geezer: it's not an isolated problem in regard to NKT and the last time I checked the Dalai Lama has never exactly been a champion of accountability and transparency. Such issues need to be dealt with sincerely and with committment... this begins when the first lay member of any group stands up and lends his or her voice to addressing the issue, doing so with compassion.

Too many times these issues only come to light when a person has left a group, not while they are standing in the middle of it.

Within any tradition, whether it is Buddhist or not, there will be those who do not suffer from moral and ethical ineptitude... stand with those people and you will uphold the Dharma regardless of any particular tradition.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 00:34

geezer: No other branches of Buddhism say "they are PURE and others are not"? Boy, only if the walls of the world's temples and monasteries could talk about what's stated in whispers and behind closed doors (LOL).

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 00:58

Geezer: I'm not defending anyone, but pointing out the fact that there is a disease within institutionalized Buddhism when these things cannot be challenged from within the instituion itself.

Only a blind man refuses to see that there are hungry ghosts within all traditions and organized religions. What should we do? Difinitely not adopt a spirit of denial to it, but remove them without recourse, even if it's a senior teacher or chief monk of the Sangha.

There are many good and upright teachers that can be found in all traditions, regardless of the the flaws of the instituion itself, so stand by the side of those teachers and only those teachers.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 01:05

You could always do as I did after I had revelations about organized sanghas. Head for the mountains and count tumbleweeds for 5 years. It's good to be about 50 miles from anyone to clear your head. The company of Deer, Elk,Coyotes,Bears, Turkeys, Eagles and Hawks. All have something to offer to calm the disruption of our Love Streams.

Maybe Findhorn is closer for you.

It sounds like you have overloaded your circuits and need to release some steam.

Wilderness is calming and the abscence of others can be more rewarding than hanging on the fringe of cities.

Here, The West Is The Best.

Get out of Dodge and hear the silence of the winds.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 01:09

Ah, even Findhorn has its problems and hungry ghosts roaming among its members. The "holier-than-you" attitude can only exist when one fails to recognize the the skeltons in their own closet... or in some cases large cemetaries 2 bodies deep. (LOL)

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 01:17

Then I guess all religious institutions need to follow Geronimo's lead... no problem with that, but if moral and ethical ineptitude is not addressed it will exist there as well. Human nature is human nature.

Excuse my language, but people have only two choices in regard to this... they can continue to bitch about or do something about it.

geezer
30 August 2008 at 01:22

THAT'S WHAT NKT/WSS SHOULD DO. DO SOMETHING ABOUT THEIR PROBLEM BEFORE THEY BITCH ABOUT OTHERS. GET THEIR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 01:23

And the same is so with the Dalai Lama.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 01:31

"Look within!

You are the Light.

Take refuge in yourself.

Do not take refuge in others.

The Light is the Dharma.

Take refuge in the Dharma.

Do not take refuge in anything,

other than the Dharma."

The Buddha is "Buddha" because of the Dharma; the Sangha is "Sangha" because of the Dharma; and the Dharma, which is changeless in time and space, is highest in the world.

The truth needs no lineage, it is here in the present moment without past or future.

geezer
30 August 2008 at 01:33

HHDL DOES NOT PRACTISE SECTARISM AND DOES NOT SUPPORT THE HATED YELLOW BOOK OF SHUG-DEN.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 01:39

No, the Dalai Lama doesn't practice sectarianism, but does he practice Buddhism? Just because it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and qwacks like a duck, it doesn't mean it's a duck.

"So one day, if the Dalai Lama becomes a mass murderer, he will become the most deadly of mass murderers" --- the DL speaking of himself in the third person and what do psychologists have to say about speaking in the third person? Hmmmm....

geezer
30 August 2008 at 01:48

YES, SHUGDEN PEOPLE MURDERED GHESHA LOBSANG AND HIS TWO STUDENT IN A SHUGDEN RITUAL. GO AND ASK THE INSPECTOR OF DHARAMSHALA.. TRUE SHUGDEN STYLE.

A HINDU IS NOT ALLOWED TO EAT BEEF AND MUSLIM IS NOT ALLOWED PORK IN THEIR INSTITUTION, ORGANISATION AND MOSQUE, TEMPLES. THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW RULES AND LAWS. CAN THEY SAY THEY HAVE NO FREEDOM.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 01:50

The quote above came from an interview with Amitabh Pal in 2006. Here's the full statement so it can't be taken out of context:

"In the 1930s, one Mongolian leader became a very, very brutal dictator and eventually became a murderer. Previously, he was a monk, I am told, and then he became a revolutionary. Under the influence of his new ideology, he actually killed his own teacher. Pol Pot’s family background was Buddhist. Whether he himself was a Buddhist at a young age, I don’t know. Even Chairman Mao’s family background was Buddhist.

So one day, if the Dalai Lama becomes a mass murderer, he will become the most deadly of mass murderers."

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 01:52

Yes... and the Dalai Lama allowed meat to be served at several of his fundraiser dinners here in the US. Your point?

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 01:55

And by the way, when a person is accused of a crime they are innocent until proven guilty... at least here in the US... you know, the bastion of democracy.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 01:55

Hey Geezer! You can go off all you want about your dissappointments. But lay off with the Murder accusations. I think you're being alittle too sour grapes!

You're starting to sound like you are having your monthly.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 02:01

Geromimo: I kind of figure if he wants to rant, let him... it just shows the readers of this article how unstable fanatical supporters of the DL actually are.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 02:11

That's too sad! I hope he finds his own demons an gives them areal thrashing for upsetting him so much!

Peace & Blessings

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 02:15

May all sentient beings find release from suffering.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 02:22

LOVE IS ALL THERE IS!

ALL WE NEED IS LOVE

ALL ARE FREE TO EXPRESS THEIR LOVE WITHOUT FEAR

EXPRESSING LOVE RELEASES US FROM OURSELF CHERISHING!

RELEASE FROM SELF CHERISHING IS FREEDOM TO LOVE ALL OTHERS

LOVING ALL OTHERS MAKES ONE HAPPY

HAPPINESS BRINGS JOY TO ALL

BRINGING JOY TO ALL OTHERS IS A GOOD THING

IT A VISCIOUS CIRCLE OF LOVING

MAYBE LOVE-INS SHOULD BE OUR NEW PRACTICE

geezer
30 August 2008 at 02:37

A group of devout Buddhists claiming adherence to Shugden have threatened the physical safety of the Dalai Lama.1 This same group has also made attempts on the life of Thupten Wangyal, the former abbot of Jangtse College, as well as other high ranking dignitaries in the Tibetan religious community. This group has even been implicated by the Indian government in murder of the director of the institute of Buddhist dialectics, Lobsang Gyatso, in Dharmasala, India

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 02:38

No geezer, in the US they are innocent until proven guilty. Your behavior reminds me more of the hooror tales from the days of the KKK and when lynch mobs roamed the streets.

Were you in the room when the murders occured? These horrible crimes occured in the dark of night, a few hundred yards from the DL's own residence if i remember correctly, but no one heard a thing... someone just creeped in there in the middle of the night and did this? In Dharmasala of all places?

The kalama Sutta is quite clear that we should not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, upon tradition, upon rumor, upon what is in a scripture, upon surmise, upon an axiom, upon specious reasoning, upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over, upon another's seeming ability, nor upon the consideration the monk is our teacher.

geezer
30 August 2008 at 02:42

I WAS TO JOIN NKT BUT ONE OF THE FORMER NKT SURVIVORS SAVED ME. OTHERWISE I WOULD HAVE BEEN DELUDED LIKE YOU GERONIMO AND DHARMAKALA. I AM JUST HAPPY I DID NOT START IT AT ALL.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 02:47

I'm not a member of the NKT and my own tradition certainly wouldn't accept anyone who rants and raves as you do... no Buddhist community would.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 02:52

Then why did you lie and tell all of the made up stories? It is wrong to Bear False Witness against your brothers and sisters. Did your parents not teach you this before you ruined all of your friends and family relationship? As you said earlier in your false accounts of being an actual Sangha memeber of the NKT.

I just think you are either bi-polar or on some kind of speed.

Really to lie so ardently on a respected English paper is not very kind or convincing.

It must be contagious to lie to cover the lies being perpetuated by the exiled tibetan government.

Shame on you for being a bad boy!

I'll have to tell your parents about this one.

geezer
30 August 2008 at 02:56

THAT'S WHAT I SAY. WHAT GOES UP HAS TO COME DOWN. IF YOU ACCUSE AND ATTACK HHDL, NYINGMAPA, KAGYU, BON AND SAKYA. NEWTON'S LAW APPLY, EVERY ACTION HAS EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 03:02

Geezer: I'm sure that Geronimo will agree with me when I say: "Go in peace to live another day and darken another doorstep."

geezer
30 August 2008 at 03:11

NKT/WSS, DSS........ IF YOU REALLY THINK THERE IS INJUSTICE TO SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS IN INDIA. INSTEAD OF WASTING SO MUCH MONEY ON PROTESTING AGAINST HHDL. SENT THESE MONEY TO SHUGDEN PEOPLE AND OPEN SCHOOLS, CLINICS, HOSPITALS, SETTLEMENTS, MONASTERIES.

RATHER THEN DEFAME BUDDHA DHARMA AND HHDL.

Tenzin
30 August 2008 at 03:57

Also, Geezer, it is so not cool to quote reams and reams of text in general, and especially from an old discredited version of Wikipedia. There has been a great deal of collaboration and editing of the entry for Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden controversy on Wikipedia, with editors from both sides of the divide, and the result is something that is actually far more balanced than what you have cut and pasted here. I hope people know to read it with a large pinch of salt!! I won't insult the readers by cutting and pasting the new Wikipedia articles but hope they'll be able to go and check them out (if they got this far, which of course is highly unlikely. I think Geezer has managed quite successfully to sabotage all attempts at civilized conversation!) Oh well, back to business as usual with the hateful messages from Dalai Lama supporters. It was fun while it lasted.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 03:58

Tenzin: Thom and I have been talking back and forth porivately and already came to the same conclusion... i figured you guys were just sitting out the conversation so Geezer could discredit himself through his one vitriolic behavior.

metta

Tenzin
30 August 2008 at 04:05

Actually, apologies to you Thom, your comments were just self-defense!! I hadn't read all Geezer's posts when I wrote that first one. They are even more petty, irrelevant to the argument at hand, axe-grinding, and illogical than I thought. Hmmmm. Still, I am not sure whether I can be bothered any more to address him directly, he won't listen anyway.

Please, moderator, can you put a stop to Geezer's childish domination of the thread.

Tenzin
30 August 2008 at 04:07

Okay Dharmakara, apologies to both you and Thom. I should have just sat out of this! You are very right. Please accept my apologies. Anyway, it was very nice discussing this all with you and I appreciate your perspective. Time to go do some meditation. Thank you.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 04:14

Tenzin: No apologies are necessary. And none of you should give up hope... the truth will be revealed about all of this. My own preceptor, Shan-jian Da-shi, has even instructed me to reach out to the Shugden groups and I'm going to be contacting our Theravada friends in Bangladesh to see if they might be able to offer some humanitarian support since the Chittagong Hills are outside of the reach of the DL and his supporters.

Lucy James
30 August 2008 at 04:25

The best way to deal with Geezer and other trolls or spammers is probably just to report them to the New Statesman. It says on their contact page:

To report comments on articles or to make a complaint about New Statesman content please email: comments@newstatesman.co.uk

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 04:34

geThen why did you lie and tell all of the made up stories? It is wrong to Bear False Witness against your brothers and sisters. Did your parents not teach you this before you ruined all of your friends and family relationship? As you said earlier in your false accounts of being an actual Sangha memeber of the NKT.

I just think you are either bi-polar or on some kind of speed.

Really to lie so ardently on a respected English paper is not very kind or convincing.

It must be contagious to lie to cover the lies being perpetuated by the exiled tibetan government of the Dalia lama's lies.

Shame on you for being a bad boy or girl! Tibetans always post they way they protest in New York, spit and spattle with screeching cries of despair.

I'll have to tell your parents about this one.

ge _zer,

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 04:36

I did that three [3 ] times alreay.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 04:40

Geronimo: We need to have compassion for all living beings, as well as patience... even for Geezer

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 04:41

...but that doesn't mean we should ever accept bad behavior.

Friendoftruth
30 August 2008 at 04:49

Dharmakara,

I think to remember that you have a website, a kind of hub for all Buddhist traditions, is this right?. If you already mentioned it in this space, sorry, it's almost impossible with the long ravings of some of our mother sentient beings to find it. Could you post it please, and a way to locate you?

Since this extraordinary 4 days are drawing to an end, I would like to thank you for your generous, pure friendship and support. It's a rare occurrence, so precious and appreciated!

I would like to thank all of those who participated in this discussion. One way or another we all contributed to expose the truth of this matter to the world.

About our angry child, the imaginary exnkt, my heart aches for him, I sincerely request your prayers, even if this causes him another round of rage, it doesn't matter. He must be very alone, in a way I think he's here seeking our company.

I don't think he is this side or that side, he is just alone with his thoughts. May our powerful Mañjushri take care of him!

Ok guys, have a good life! How I miss our Forum in Dorjeshugden.com! That was our virtual home. Salve Beggar!

Thank you kind people of the New Statesman. Please do not forget our issue. Please now sit down and read carefully through all the material posted here, and reach your own conclusions.

You have compensated for such a long neglect from the people of the Press! Thank you again.

Love to all.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 04:54

Mahabodhi IP

http://www.mahabodhi.net

You can contact me through the website and if any of you need free hosting or internet service let me know.

Metta.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 06:17

Thurman's scholarship is flawed at best --- in a recent interview he stated the following:

"...since the Soviet Union deconstructed, the Chinese have become more frightened, more determined to hold on to real estate that is not theirs. Not just Tibet, but also Mongolia, Xinjiang, even Manchuria."

The last time I checked Mongolia had a peaceful Democratic revolution and was still a parliamentary republic with free elections held every four years, something a high school student usually learns in a political science course.

So much for scholarship.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 07:20

I only have heard of one "Douglas Chalmers"... a professor at Yale. Is this you?

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 07:28

I do not understand what you are trying to say, geezer

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 07:33

Sorry! I meant Douglas, .

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 07:35

Geronimo: Are you saying that "Douglas Chalmers" is "Geezer"?

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 07:37

I don't know... you might have been right the first time (LOL)

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 07:56

Yep!

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 08:03

Geronimo: Chalmers was the one mouthing off on the previous article and Tenzin called him on it. i don't know if he'll answer your request for clarification or not... yesterday he made a comment about someone orchestrating the riots in Tibet, but he didn't clarify that statement either.

Douglas Chalmers
30 August 2008 at 08:13

Dharmakara: "...I only have heard of one "Douglas Chalmers"... a professor at Yale...?"

Ha ha, what a geezer you are. I don't know of any enlightened individuals at Harvard - are there any at Yale, either? LOL

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 08:18

It is part of Bob Thurman's intellegencia network that keep the authorship of their book royalties endorsement by the Dalia lama in tact. Bob squeezes all the authorities that have cropped up over the last 20 years to say and support all kinds of disinfromation about the Dalia lineages.

I always like the one when Bob said so enthusiastically that 'All Dorje Shugden Devotees were just like the Taliban. Just like the Taliban'.

Brandishing swords as in "The Charge Of The Light Brigade".frenziness.

What can I say? He said this in, was it Newsweek?

At the same time the Taliban were cutting women's heads off in the Kabul Soccer Field.

He's funny all right! A real stitch!

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 08:20

I don't know of any enlightened individuals at Yale or Harvard, but on the other hand none of us here have to look to far to find an arrogant fool.

Have you ever tried to talk to a person or do you prefer to talk down to them when you're not the center of attention?

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 08:22

Sorry Doug! Your Ha Ha gave you away again. Mutiple posting personalities seem to be vogue these days. So many avatars with made up characters. It's really faily impressive and almost works, But you always go on to long and give yourself away

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 08:31

That's exactly what what me wife thought and she was skimming the post this evening .

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 08:46

Actually this guy might be a professor from Columbia which explains everything. Need I say more? ROFLMAO

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 08:52

We're all human. Aren't we?

Buddhist Humanism is a philosophy which encompasses all Buddhist teachings from the time of Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, to that of the present day. The goal of Buddhist Humanism is expressed within the Bodhisattva ideal, by becoming an energetic, enlightened, and endearing person dedicated to the welfare and liberation of all sentient beings.

Buddhist Humanism focuses more on issues of the world, the suffering which occurs, rather than on how to leave the world behind; on caring for the living, rather than the dead; on benefiting others, rather than benefiting oneself; and on universal liberation, rather than cultivation for only oneself.

Buddhist Humanism has six characteristics:

Humanism - The Buddha was neither a spirit, coming and going without leaving a trace, nor was he a figment of one’s imagination. The Buddha was a living human being. Just like the rest of us, he had parents, a family, and he lived a life. It was through his human existence that he showed his supreme wisdom of compassion, ethical responsibility, and prajna-wisdom. Thus, he is a Buddha who was also a human being.

Emphasis on Daily Life - The Buddha placed great importance on daily life as spiritual practice. He provided guidance on everything, from how to eat, dress, work, and live, to how to walk, stand, sit, and sleep. He gave clear directions on every aspect of life, from relations among family members and between friends to how we should conduct ourselves in the social and political arenas.

Altruism - The Buddha was born into this world to teach, to provide an example, and to bring joy to all beings. He nurtured all beings, for he always had the best interests of others in his mind and heart. In short, his every thought, word, and action arose from a heart filled with deep care and concern for others.

Joyfulness - The Buddhist teachings give people joy. Through the limitless compassion of his heart, the Buddha aimed to relieve the suffering of all beings and to give them joy.

Timeliness - The Buddha was born for a great reason: to build a special relationship with all of us who live in this world. Although the Buddha lived over 2,500 years ago and has already entered nirvana, he left the seed of liberation for all subsequent generations. Even today, the Buddha’s ideals and teachings serve as a timely and relevant guide for all faiths and traditions.

Universality - The entire life of the Buddha can be characterized through the Buddha’s spirit of wanting to liberate all living beings, without exclusion. The Buddha loved beings of all forms, whether they were animals or humans, male or female, young or old, Buddhist or not.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 08:54

Do you mean? Could it be?" Maybe Bob?

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 09:09

No, not Thurman... There's a "Douglas Chalmers" at Columbia who got his PhD at Yale, but I seriously doubt a professor emeritus would be carrying on in such manner --- but he's up there in age, as a retired professor, so he might be the one who is calling himself "geezer" here as well

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 09:29

You must have never seen Bob carry on, then?

He'll say anything to be right.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 09:45

Oh, I've seen him carry on, but I don't think it was him

Lhakpa Himalaya
30 August 2008 at 11:25

early 20th, in Shanghai, once was the biggest commercial center of Aisa, there was a park called Huangpu Park, and at its entry there was a signboard says: " Chinese and dog are not allowed to enter in".

So yes you can have your english buddhism, american buddhism... But make sure that the buddhism still remains a buddhism once adopted by you westerner, that socalled democracy was firstly introduced from the west ,and now it has been proved by key western couuntries that democracy can be adjusted to china's huge market.

geezer
30 August 2008 at 11:48

g

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 18:54

That's "Chief" to you! John Old Geezer,

Your photos says it all!

Douglas A. Chalmers

International Affairs Building, Room 829

Professor of Political Science

Phone: 212-854-6675

www.columbia.edu/~chalmers/

dac2@columbia.edu

PLease give Bob my regards

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 19:14

12th Annual Meeting of General body of Ngari Kyithun association.

The meeting was held at Ngari Kyithun hall in Dharamshala from 18 to 20 of August, 2008.

Except:

4 Agenda

What is the best to do about properly fulfilling the words and thoughts of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, keeping the nectar of his words and well-being in our heart?

Resolution

When Ngari association offered long life and oath swearing, [the dalai lama] said it is important to maintain pure commitment among Tibetan. In particular, the Dalai Lama repeatedly advises regarding the Dholgyal (Shugden). Therefore, we, the inside and outside people of Nagri of Tibet, will accept and swear not to contradict the instructions by Tibetan Government in exile and the nectar like advices by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Democracy at work in the theocratic dictatorial world of the Dalia lama. Unelected and untrue in his obligations to freedom loving peoples of the world.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 19:44

Here is one of Douglas Chalmers' postings:old geezer

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20080307_obama_a...

When you click on his name it takes you here:

http://ddchalmers.spaces.live.com/

Clearly both of these pages belong to the same person posting at the New Statesman, but this is the webpage of Prof. Chalmers at Columbia and he's difinetly a "geezer":

http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/academics/directory/dac2-fac.ht...

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 19:57

Peace & Blessings!

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 20:35

Dalia lama's politcal machine is on message with the KKK

The Golden Era of Indiana (1900-1941)

A majority of people have an already formed image of the Ku Klux Klan in their minds. Men, dressed in white robes and hoods, riding throughout the countryside harassing blacks. Most believe that the Klan is an extinct organization, once comprised of rednecks and racist southerners. However, unfortunately, the Klan is still alive in Indiana. There was a time in Indiana when Klan membership could help an aspiring political career. Leonard Moore from the University of California has carefully analyzed Klan membership documents of Indiana and discovered that 250,000 white men in Indiana (about 30% of the native-born Caucasian men in Indiana) joined the Klan in the early 1920s.[1]

The Klan has appeared and disappeared more than four times throughout its history. It is the constant bad dream for a free American society to deal with. Just when you think it’s gone, it rears its ugly head once more. In its various forms and incarnations, the Klan has not entirely remained a southern-dominated organization. White supremacy has always been its goal, but its anger and hatred has been used against other minority groups than just black Americans.

Its first appearance in American history was in the South, organized for only a short number of years between 1865 and 1872. The group was started by a group of 6 men from Pulaski, Tennessee, mainly as an elaborate game and roleplay of wearing eerie costumes while riding on horseback. It didn’t take long for the Ku Klux Klan (its name, supposedly, derived from the Greek word kuklos, which means “circle”) to go from a fraternal organization to a vigilante group bent on violence. An ex-Confederate general, Nathan Bedford Forrest, was chosen to be the Klan’s first leader.

Forrest headed up a committee that made the Klan a secret society with elaborate and, sometimes, bizzare titles: grand wizard, grand dragon, titans and cyclops. The Klan was filled with members of the recently defeated Confederate army. Their focus was threefold: to strike back at the federal Reconstruction government, to put the blacks “back in their place,” and to chase the white carpetbaggers back North.[2] Because many southerners believed that the North was using the Reconstruction to hand over the South to illiterate blacks, the Klan was a way for southern whites to strike back.

The first Klan attacked with a fierce vengeance. This first Klan set the violent tone of the future organization. Anyone, either black or white, would meet a violent death if they stood in their way. The Klan’s tools of intimidation included lynching, shooting, stabbing and whipping. They perceived their mission as defenders of the white way of life. They also saw themselves as protectors of white women and the property of their birth. The government, however, saw them as bloodthirsty criminals.

The government stepped in and ordered Nathan Forrest to disband the Klan. He reluctantly agreed and the secret organization of terror dissolved in 1869. However, violence towards blacks continued even after the dissolution of the Klan. The Klan’s reign of terror was temporarily over.

The Klan would have been forgotten if Thomas Dixon, Jr., a novelist, hadn’t produced a romanticized version of the Klan’s history. Dixon claimed that the Klan was fighting for a just cause, defending their honor from wild blacks and white criminals. In 1915, almost 10 years after Dixon’s writings, film maker D.W. Griffith used his book as a basis for a new movie. The new movie was entitled, Birth of a Nation and it was praised in the South and crucified in the North. The South saw it as a true depiction of the raw deal of Reconstruction, while the North saw the film as a way to legitimize racial hatred and violence toward minorities. However, when President Woodrow Wilson, a southern Democrat, saw the film and remarked that it was “all too terribly true,” the rest of America flocked to see this new epic.[3]

When Birth of a Nation debuted in Atlanta, Georgia on December 7, 1915, an advertisement appeared in the Atlanta newspaper calling for southern white men to join “A High Class Order for Men of Intelligence and Character.” This was, of course, the new rebirth of the Ku Klux Klan. This new Klan was, basically, a fraternal social club for white supremacists.

The first imperial wizard of this second Klan movement was a former Methodist preacher named William Simmons. He was interviewed in 1928 as to why people joined this new Klan movement. Simmons said:

I went around Atlanta talking to men who belonged to other lodges [Masons, Woodmen of the World] about the new Ku Klux Klan. The Negroes were getting pretty uppity in the South along about that time. The North was sending down for them to take good jobs. Lots of Southerners were feeling worried about conditions. Thirty-four men belonging to various other lodges, promised to attend a meeting in [attorney E.R.] Clarkson’s office. And on the night of October 26, 1915, we met. They were all there. Two of them were men who had belonged to the old Klan. John W. Bale, speaker of the Georgia legislature, called the meeting to order. He was the first man in America to wield a Klan gavel. I talked for an hour and we all decided that the idea would grow. We voted to apply for a state charter.[4]

In November of 1915, Simmons and the new klansmen held their first initiation ceremony and cross burning. With Birth of a Nation providing free recruiting advertisement for the Klan, membership soared.

When the United States entered World War I in 1917, the Klan grew in strength. America now had to be ‘protected’ from the Germans and others: Catholics, Jews, Socialists, blacks and union leaders. Membership in the Klan was a way for citizens to help out the war effort in Europe by making sure American soil was kept ‘pure.’ The Klan was quickly becoming something universal and not just a southern racist group. William Simmons now realized that the Ku Klux Klan could now become a national fraternal movement.

D.C. Stephenson and the Indiana Klan

A man named Joe Huffington was chosen by Simmons and other top Klan officials to start organizing the Klan in Indiana. Huffington’s first base of operations was located in Evansville, Indiana. In the late summer of 1920 he began preparations to bring the Klan to Indiana. It was not long before Huffington met a young man named D.C. Stephenson.

D.C. Stephenson was born, probably, in Texas and soon would become the most powerful and influential man in Indiana. Stephenson found himself, eventually, in Evansville working as a salesman of bonds for the L.G. Julian Coal Company. By 1921 he was helping Huffington recruit for the newly formed Indiana chapter of the Klan. He was making a pretty good living with both jobs.

The Klan had a large vocabulary of secret words and titles that Stephenson had to learn. William Simmons was known as the imperial wizard, the top office of the Klan. Other office titles included: kligrapp, kludd, nighthawk and Cyclops. Their secret meetings and gatherings were known as klonvocations. Membership fees were called klecktoken.

D.C. Stephenson, like all other new members, had to swear an oath of allegiance to the Klan and a vow of secrecy. New recruits were asked 9 questions:

Is the motive prompting your ambition to be a Klansman serious and unselfish?

Are you native born, white, Gentile, American citizens?

Are you absolutely opposed to and free of any allegiance of any nature to cause, government, people, sect, or ruler that is foreign to the United States of America?

Do you esteem the United States of America and its institutions above any other government, civil, political, or ecclesiastical in the whole world?

Will you, without mental reservations, take a solemn oath to defend, preserve, and enforce these same?

Do you believe in Klannishness and will you faithfully practice same toward your fellow Klansmen?

Do you believe in and will you faithfully strive for the eternal maintenance of White Supremacy?

Will you faithfully obey our constitutions and laws, and confirm willingly to all our usages, requirements, and regulations?

Can you always be depended on?[5]

Did D.C. Stephenson take the oath seriously? No one really knows. Stephenson's public speeches aren't filled with the racist rhetoric as many of the other leaders of the Klan. He usually left the hate speeches up to others in the power structure of the Klan. His talent was centered around organizing the Klan in Indiana and collecting new recruits.

Membership in the Indiana division of the Klan began soaring with each new speech that Stephenson made. The group began to expand to the western states and industrial cities of the Midwest, the Klan was no longer a southern sensation.

The Klan even made inroads into Indiana churches. The Reverend William Forney Harris of the Grand Avenue Methodist Church preached in 1922 that secret societies like the Ku Klux Klan would not get his support. However, these were times of "moral decay," and as such, any organization that stood for decency and order ought not to be shunned. Other clergy found themselves offering similar endorsements to their congregations as the Klan membership began to grow locally.6

D.C. Stephenson went on to become a powerful political figure in Indiana. His rise to power was short-lived, however. In 1922 David Curtis Stephenson was appointed Grand Dragon of the KKK for Indiana. In 1925 he had met a statehouse secretary, Madge Oberholtzer, at an inaugural ball for Governor Ed Jackson. She was later abducted from her home in Irvington, a neighborhood of Indianapolis and taken by Stephenson and some of his men to the train station. While on a trip to Hammond, Indiana, Stephenson repeatedly attacked and raped Oberholtzer in one compartment of his Pullman railcar. In Hammond she took poison to frighten Stephenson into letting her go. He immediately rushed her back to Indianapolis where she died a month later, either from the effects of the poison or the severe bite marks she incurred during the rape.

Stephenson was arrested and charged with second-degree murder. The sensational trial took place in Noblesville, Indiana in 1925. His conviction sent Stephenson to the Indiana State Prison in Michigan City, Indiana for the next 31 years (the longest imprisonment in this state for that crime). He was released from prison in 1956 and faded into obscurity. However, not before causing the shocking downfall of many corrupt political officials within Indiana. When he went to jail he was convinced that Governor Ed Jackson, who he had helped elect, would pardon him. Governor Jackson never came through with the pardon and Stephenson began to talk.

With help from The Indianapolis Times (which won a Pulitzer Prize for its investigations), the structure of Indiana politics would be shaken. Stephenson began to talk about who had helped him rise to power and began to name names. The aftermath was shocking, indictments were filed against Governor Ed Jackson, Marion County Republican chairman George V. "Cap" Coffin, and attorney Robert I. Marsh, charging them with conspiring to bribe former Governor Warren McCray. Even Mayor of Indianapolis John Duvall was convicted and sentenced to jail for 30 days (and barred from political service for 4 years). Some Marion County commissioners also resigned from their posts on charges of accepting bribes from the Klan and Stephenson.

This was not the image that Indiana wanted to portray during its "golden age." Stephenson at the peak of his political career and influence had remarked, "I am the law in Indiana."

bengrimwood
30 August 2008 at 20:50

In my humble opinion, everyone should use their real name on blogs. Not to do so is a sign of fear. Buddhists should fear nothing. Or is that no-thing? Ha!

I think therefore I am - a flawed philosophy. Presumptious that there is an 'I' in the first place.

Geronimo - isn't that the name that people scream when they are about to do something dangerous? By the way - is it normal for protector deities to take alcohol at the shrine? Not rhetorical question, am just curious.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 20:57

Geronimo, no that's a Hollywood insinuation.

My name has always been Thomas Canada. Longer than Geronimo. For me Geronimo means strenght and perserverance.

Tenzin
30 August 2008 at 21:06

Thanks Lyara. I was dismayed to see Geezer and Douglas Chalmers flaming like this because the discussions were so civil before. It is hard to know where to start in refuting their absurd posts so I give up in advance.

I just posted this to the New Statesman because Geezer and Douglas Chalmers seem to be breaking the rules of courtesy in abundance!

Dear New Statesman,

While appreciating very much you took the trouble to hear out the point of view of beleagured Dorje Shugden practitioners, by now you have probably discovered that questioning the Dalai Lama brings out the worst in his followers. The comments have now degenerated into a blood bath, with very offensive postings especially from Geezer and Douglas Chalmers. There are libellous accusations by Geezer also against the NKT that have been replied to elsewhere on numerous occasions but it does not stop people posting them again (you can see http://www.newkadampatruth.org to see the replies if you don't believe me and think the libel should stay up).

Please could you do something about these two posters. I am reporting them in accordance with your statement below (quoted). Thank you for restoring the peace and dignity to this chat thread.

Best, Tenzin

"We want to encourage people to comment on our content and to exchange views with other readers and hope this will be done on a courteous basis. However, if you encounter posts which are offensive please let us know by emailing comments@newstatesman.co.uk and we will take swift action where necessary."

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 21:20

beggar-

Our people want their Dorje Shugden Forum back. What can you do to fulfill their wishes?

afriend,geronimo,the lone ranger and others ask your help to restore this vital link between themselves.

Thanks

Thomas Canada

Douglas Chalmers
30 August 2008 at 21:25

Can you mind your own business, please, Tenzin? I am not a "follower" of any Tibetan school of Buddhism. You have all become very odiously sickening to me.

Make what complaints you like, though. This is the reality of blogging or, more specifically, commenting on a media website. It is known as democracy or free speech to real netizens.

If you are looking for people to agree with you, you should only ever post on your own blog or website. The same goes for the topic author, Meindert Gorter, who shouldn't be offended merely because his articles have attracted comments from a range of people.

In other words, you don't own this site and haven't a right to expect people to agree with you. Noticeably, though, a number of so-called Dorje Shugden supporters have been quite vindictive in their own responses. That is hardly amusing but only to be expected.

The fact that others have tolerated you lot shows that you yourselves are most pretentious and discriminatory anyway. So much for delusional Buddhists these days. None of you make the grade although you seem to want to so conceitedly think so, uhh.

May i introduce you to the concept of cognitive dissonance as regards your obsessions? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Douglas Chalmers
30 August 2008 at 21:44

Lyara: "...the smear campaign against the NKT .....www.NewKadampaTruth.org..."

Interesting to note that your website does NOT invite comments on its pages but your people come here, post whatever they please, abusive or otherwise, and then proced to smear others they don't agree with.

It is not appreciated and I have noticed that Americans in particular are quite willing to stomp into a blog in another country as though the own the place. Of course, some Aussies are almost as bad these days, too, and both are quite arrogantly demanding on blogs in their own countries.

Thank you.....LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0e80XBk00

Dougal
30 August 2008 at 21:58

Douglas -

netiquette, as you will know as an experienced netizen, generally abhors trolling and flaming.

you've said, on this point: "noticeably, though, a number of so-called Dorje Shugden supporters have been quite vindictive in their own responses."

really? i've seen some frustration creeoping into the occasional comment - i was a bit harsh by making a jest at the expense of a commenter's username, for example - but i've not seen anything truly vindictive from DS supporters to compare with, say: "You have all become very odiously sickening to me." (Douglas Chalmers, 30 August 2008 at 21:25).

Dougal
30 August 2008 at 22:04

Douglas -

yes, i know, by posting above i was feeding the troll! sorry.

with respect, though, a genuine question: why are you posting here? it's unquestionably your right to do so, but what exactly have you contributed to the debate, other than to slander all Tibetan Buddhists as credulous fools? this hardly becomes an academic such as yourself.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 22:13

Dougal: I have serious reservations about this persaon actually being Prof. Chalmers, least of all being the fact that the the professor's middle name begins with an "A" while this guy is "ddchalmer".

This isn't the kind of behavior one would expect from a well-rounded professor emeritus... unless he's suffering from dementia or going senile (LOL).

Dougal
30 August 2008 at 22:15

yes, Dharmakara, good point.

well, Douglas, geezer, or whoever you are - another way to say it is: this behaviour hardly becomes a decent human being such as yourself.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 22:22

This does not mean we should tolerate Mr. Douglas "Geezer' Chalmers profanity on a public forum.

Perhaps the New Statesman tolerate all forms of speech. I do not know.

I will say this, and that is Thank You Very Much for creating an opportunity for people to express themselves to others.

Muchas Gracias from Southern Utah!

Thomas Canada

Geronimo

Dougal
30 August 2008 at 22:39

actually, on another topic, i'd like to offer a rejoinder to the points raised by geezer, in addition to Lyara's post above.

neither the NKT or Geshe Kelsang has *ever* stated that it is pure and other traditions are not. in fact, i have heard Geshe Kelsang say directly that all 4 Tibetan schools have valid and complete paths to enlightenment, and what's more, that his disciples would do well to emulate the morality and the faith shown by many Christians and Muslims.

in addition to this, NKT has acknowledged its internal problems publicly, and made clear and definite efforts to improve in order to avoid repetition of such problems in the future. its Internal Rules of the NKT-IKBU document (subtitled A Moral Discipline Guide) has been revised many times over in the few years since its adoption, to include clearer guidelines and preventative measures to safeguard the discipline of the Sangha, lay and ordained.

of particular interest in this regard, to me at least, is this point: [text in square brackets is my annotation]

7§3. If the officers or Members [Members being each Dharma Centre of the NKT, represented by its duly-appointed Resident Teacher] of the Charity ignore these rules 7§1 and 7§2 [i.e. do not remove from office by vote a General or Deputy Spiritual Director of the NKT who has broken the Internal Rules, such as by breaking his or her ordination vows], particularly while understanding at any time that a General or Deputy Spiritual Director has performed any of the above inappropriate actions, then it will be recognised publicly that the NKT-IKBU is spiritually impure. Therefore to protect the NKT-IKBU society from such impurity the officers and Members of the Charity must apply effort to maintain these two rules."

to me, this is the mark of an open and responsible spiritual society. NKT is not perfectly pure, noerr has it ever claimed to be, but as Dharmakara pointed out above - where, in the impurity of samsara, can we find a completely blamelss society. at least it is making every effort to improve, as are we all, on the spiritual path.

finally - an apology: this is now way OT. rights and wrongs of NKT weigh little in deciding the rights or wrongs of the DL's ban. that, for all the many and various reasons given above, is most assuredly wrong.

Dharmakara
30 August 2008 at 22:55

The day that any particular culture is truly a perfect model for society, it will also be the same day pigs learn to fly --- this also holds true for religious organizations as well.

Does any country in Asia or elsewhere in the world have flying pigs?

Then again, people can resort to saying "it's real if I believe it is" and you'll have thousands of flying pigs, but very little truth.

Geronimo
30 August 2008 at 23:27

St Paul, Minnesota was originally called, "Pig's Eye".

Does that come close to the Flying Pig?

Dougal
31 August 2008 at 00:21

Dharmakara -

should have said this before: thank you for your very kind good wishes from you and your Preceptor. i'll pass on your good wishes to appropriate folk, and your web address.

Dougal
31 August 2008 at 00:30

& guys -

remind me never to ride one of those Flying Pigs off of a roof, even if the Pilots at Dharamsala assure me it's ok.

:-)

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 00:34

Imperfect Being On A Perfect Path

Buddhas appear in many forms to help living beings.

Dorje Shugden is a Buddha who appears as a Dharma Protector to help us progress along the spiritual path to enlightenment.

‘Dharma’ means Buddha’s teachings and the inner realizations we gain from putting them into practice.

To follow the path to enlightenment taught by Buddha, we must develop love and compassion for all living beings and then train sincerely in giving, moral discipline, patience, joyous effort, meditative concentration and wisdom.

Our motivation is to become free from all faults and accomplish all good qualities so that we can help every living being find lasting peace and happiness.

When we recite the Dorje Shugden prayer we ask him to protect the growth and development of these precious realizations, or Dharma, within our mind.

That is the function of a Dharma Protector.

The Function of the Bill Of Rights and it's Freedoms

is to Protect the Dharma Practioners . To allow the free flow of the Dharma to the people.

No one is above the Law.

The Dalia lama is breaking the law and is not above the law.

The Indian Constitution states quite clearly that no one can interfere nor molest others for ther religious beliefs.

September 15th, 2008/ The New Delhi High Court will hear this high writ against the Dalia lama and Samdong for violating the civil rights of Tibetan Monks.

We abide by the law and no it is for all people.

It is up to us as people to ensure these laws being enforced for the benefit of all people, everywhere, irregardless of race, creed, nationality. All have rights that are as natural as the expression of love.

Violating the laws generates hate.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 00:39

Dougal: If you have a choice, don't ride the flying pigs... the flying monkeys are less likely to crash and burn (LOL)

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 00:50

This Dalia lama is not the elected head of anything and has no rights to determine the destiny of anyone, other than himself.

Tibetan Buddhism will recede and a new Buddhism is arising in the West.

A Buddhism protected by the Laws of a Free Society. Not anchored in the past with a medieval theocratic dictatorial potentate of the Dalia Lama lineage.

No longer will any Buddhist Practioner suffer under the whims of a single person's will.

We do not need any authoritarian Lama's approval to believe as we please.

We have cut the ties to the Old World and are free to turn the Wheel Of Dharma.

We are free to express our Love and Compassion.

Without interference from anyone.

Each and every one of us stand individually.

We all Stand Together as One.

Our beliefs are not confused with the Idol Worshipping of another human being as our faith.

We do not take refuge in sentient beings.

We are Free to believe as we choose.

We are free to fight anyone who attempt to steal or interfere with our freedoms.

Do Not Tread On Me!

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 05:05

Got him!!!! Douglas Chalmers (a.k.a. Dick Charmer, Southern Swan, Fong of the Inland) is an online pariah and he's been acting like this on several other websites, including Get Up blogs, where the following advice in regard to him was offered: "Just ignore him. I wish he would get the mental health care that he so desperately needs."

Douglas Chalmers
31 August 2008 at 13:05

Dougal, 30 August 2008: "...i know, by posting above i was feeding the troll..... what exactly have you contributed to the debate, other than to slander all Tibetan Buddhists as credulous fools..... this hardly becomes an academic such as yourself..... netiquette, as you will know as an experienced netizen, generally abhors trolling and flaming..."

I am not "an academic", thank you, Dougal, and I make the point advisedly as academics have widespread pretensions to Buddhism to the extent that they now tend to dictate (along with many others) to the Buddha what His path to Enlightenment should be.

You can regard me as a kind of Dharma "protector", though, as I am not letting anyone go on these issues and especially as regards TRUTH which I regard as the main Universal path to Enlightenent. You are all so utterly pre-occupied with yourselves, your meaningless lives and your dishonest avoidance of the real truth about your inability to face Reality.

It is sadly well-known amongst genuine practitioners that Prince Siddartha would never be allowed into any Buddhist school these days - unless he was known to be a prince they could fawn over. The same actually goes for Jesus whose radical teachings wouldn't at all be tolerated in any Christain order. As for you lot, you are not masters of anything - even of yourselves.

None of you - I repeat, NONE of you are willing to face the trials that either Buddha or Jesus or any other enlightened master faced in order to attain Enlightenment. Instead, you pretend that you are wise (itself a state of enlightenment) by mere book-learning and a few meditation practices. It is NOT enough. You are ALL faking it, many Tibetans included. Learn the value of SERVICE and self-sacrifice in your lives!

#Geronimo and others, people hgere want their New Statesman forum back. You are not welcome to come here assuming ownership of the site or demanding protection under its rules or norms simply because a topic is about Shugden issues. No wonder, then, that the Dalai Lama doesn't want you, either. Don't dictate to me about garbae to do with "trolling and flaming", though, as that is precisely waht you all are so rudely doing yourselves, especially you arrogant Americans.

Apparently, you lot have made him ill now as a result of your depredations or your attempts as at black magic of one kind or another. The same goes for the evil separatists who you wish to align yourselves with for your own advantage. No good can come of any of it for the people living in Tibet who now must make their own lives without you as you are not really helping them in any way.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 15:18

Anybody got a can of "Bug Be Gone"? I hear it works on hungry ghosts.

whatever
31 August 2008 at 16:32

The Chinese may be practicing Buddhism in some form, but to suggest that a cultural genocide is not occurring, or that Tibetans are living harmoniously under Chinese occupation are just absurd notions. Meindert Gorter is just trying to make his career on being a critic of the Dalai Lama and people need to start ignoring him.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 17:04

Whatever: Yes, I agree with you, there are major problems with China --- how it has reacted to Tibetan Buddhism in general and the Dalai Lama in particular --- but I don't recall anyone having to twist his arm to take money from the CIA... and Meindert Gorter isn't the first person to point out the DL's Achilles' Heel, his area of weakness and vulnerablity when it comes to his behavior.

There's an expression: "Opportunity knocks, but Karma will hunt you down." (LOL)

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 17:36

Homage to all Buddhas past, present and future,

Homage to all Bodhisattvas and Arhats,

Homage to all Wandering Disciples,

Homage to all Monastic Disciples,

Homage to all Lay Disciples,

Homage to all who seek the Truth,

Homage to all Sentient Beings,

Homage to all Life,

and to the Children of the World: Namasté!

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 18:10

Six principal reasons why the Dalai Lama is not a Buddhist

When a person assumes the role of a religious authority and leader it is incumbent upon him or her to show exemplary behavior. Such a person should understand that they will be seen by many to be a role model, and should know full well that their actions will be emulated. In fact, such a person defines what it means to be a practitioner of that particular belief system. They should also understand that their actions will be scrutinized by others. Therefore, their moral discipline should be flawless or at the very least they should make a strong effort to avoid as much as possible, any negative actions. They should be particularly mindful not to engage in actions that could easily be misconstrued. They should also scrupulously adhere to the doctrine and tenets of their faith. Supposedly such a person would be elevated to such a position precisely because they have all the necessary qualifications. Supposedly they would possess the uncommon attributes, experience, and wisdom to guide and council those seeking to practice that spiritual tradition.

If one takes the time to investigate the actions of the Dalai Lama we find that he lacks all of the above qualities. He has shown again and again to be an extremely poor example of not only what it means to be a qualified spiritual leader, but what it means to be an ordained person. His example if emulated, will lead to the swift destruction of Buddhism in this world. If the leader does not practice the basic teachings of the faith, how can he be considered to be an adherent of that faith?

1) Abandoning Buddhist refuge

To be a Buddhist one must take refuge in the Three Jewels – Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Refuge is a practice that is based in developing deep faith, and understands the good qualities of the objects of refuge. A Buddhist believes the Three Jewels to be the supreme objects of refuge, and takes a vow to seek ultimate refuge exclusively in them.

The Dalai Lama chose to ban the spiritual practice of Dorje Shugden. Among the reasons cited for this ban was the advice of the Nechung Oracle. The oracle is a person who ‘channels’ a spirit. Nechung is recognized by everyone including the Dalai Lama to be a worldly being of the spirit realm. The Dalai Lama consistently relies upon oracles and divination to make important religious and political decisions.

In his autobiography, Freedom in Exile, the Dalai Lama writes:

“For hundreds of years now, it has been traditional for the Dalai Lama, and the Government, to consult Nechung during the New Year festivals. In addition, he might well be called upon at other times if either have specific queries. I myself have dealings with him several times a year. This may sound far-fetched to twentieth-century western readers. Even some Tibetans, mostly those who consider themselves ‘progressive’, have misgivings about my continued use of this ancient method of intelligence gathering.”

None of these practices of reliance were taught by Buddha and are in direct contradiction to the refuge vows. Never has the Dalai Lama said that his decision to ban the practice of Dorje Shugden came from the blessings and advice of enlightened beings. His reasons have all been derived from the opinions of ordinary beings. Although he claims two previous Dalai Lamas and other high Lamas as reliable sources for implementing the ban they cannot be considered reliable sources. This is because if they were realized beings they would understand that it is impossible for them or their disciples to be harmed by the practice of Dorje Shugden. Buddha taught that one of the benefits of refuge is protection from harm from others. This is also one of the principal benefits of relying on a qualified Spiritual Guide. If we assume that Dorje Shugden is harmful, how could a sincere Dharma practitioner experience suffering? The fears of these high Lamas and of the Dalai Lamas indicate either they do not have any faith in Buddhadharma, or that they do not put Dharma into practice correctly. Therefore, their opinion is unreliable. The whole practice of relying upon oracles and divination comes from the Bon religion. This is a religion that was widely practiced in Tibet prior to the introduction of Buddhism. How can the Dalai Lama be considered a Buddhist if he practices Bon rituals?

2) Abandoning reliance upon the Spiritual Guide

The root of the spiritual path according to Buddha’s teachings is complete faith and reliance upon one’s Spiritual Guide. This practice has been demonstrated by all the previous accomplished Masters throughout Buddhist history. They all taught such reliance to their disciples, who in turn did the same.

In the traditional prayer practice called Lama Chopa it says:

“The Guru is Buddha,

The Guru is Dharma,

The Guru is also Sangha,

The Guru is the source of all joys”

The meaning is that the Guru is a manifestation of Buddha Shakyamuni. The second line means that he is the embodiment of the realizations of the stages of the path to enlightenment. The third line means that through putting his instructions into practice causes sentient beings to attain supreme results. Therefore, the Guru is the source of all joys.

The fourteenth Dalai Lama has repudiated his Spiritual Guide and the lineage of his Spiritual Guide, stating unequivocally that they were “all wrong” for practicing Dorje Shugden. He has deleted the names of his Spiritual Guide (Trijang Rinpoche) and lineage Gurus from sadhanas, books, and teachings. This action of deleting the names of lineage gurus demonstrates without any doubt that he is not a Buddhist. It is a direct attack on Buddhadharma. Moreover, it has been his wish since 1960 to merge all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism into one. His real intention is to destroy all existing lineages and establish the Dalai Lama(s) as the sole holder(s) of Buddha’s teachings.

3) Abandoning sentient beings

If one were to ask a Buddhist to synthesize the meaning of their faith into a single word, they would most likely say that it is compassion. Specifically, it is universal compassion. Universal compassion is the substantial cause of enlightenment. Needless to say it is possessed by all enlightened beings. On the other hand, the Dalai Lama has clearly demonstrated that he completely lacks compassion. For more than 12 years he has refused to acknowledge the suffering that has been the result of his ban on Dorje Shugden. When confronted with the evidence of violence he dismisses it as “rumors.” Any compassionate leader would at the very least immediately renounce the violence and agree to investigate the matter for themselves.

The fact that he does neither indicates that has broken the basic Bodhisattva vow never to abandon sentient beings. His actions show that he does not consider the suffering he has created to be actual suffering.

No practioner of Dorje Shugden is allowed to attend any of his teachings or other spiritual ceremonies. They are also banned from being employed or holding any position within the Tibetan government in exile, or be considered to hold the status of a person of authentic Tibetan origin. They are not even considered to be a Buddhist practioner. As the leader of the Tibetan government in exile it is he that has personally instituted these additional bans.

Abandoning any sentient being is a cause for all of the good qualities one possesses to degenerate. Sadly, many of the followers of the Dalai Lama have emulated his actions.

The Dalai Lama’s absence of compassion, the very essence of Buddhadharma, shows he is not a practicing Buddhist.

4) Committing one of the five heinous actions

These are: killing one’s father; killing one’s mother; killing a Foe Destroyer; maliciously wounding a Buddha; or causing a schism within the Sangha. It is this last action that the Dalai Lama is guilty of. The Dalai Lama has caused one of greatest divisions in Buddhism since its inception. It has caused the whole of the Buddhist world to choose which side of the issue to follow. It has caused disharmony to erupt within families, communities, traditions, and between lay and ordained people. Even if the Dalai Lama were to suddenly renounced his ban, the wound that has been created between all these groups would persist for a long time.

On July 14th 1996, in Caux Switzerland the Dalai Lama said:

“Everyone who is affiliated with the Tibetan society of the Ganden Phodrang government (Tibetan government), should relinquish ties with Dhogyal. This is necessary since it poses danger to the religious and temporal situation of Tibet. As for foreigners, it makes no difference to us if they walk with their feet up and their head down. We have taught Dharma to them, not they to us…

Until now you have a very good job on this issue. Hereafter also, continue this policy in a clever way. We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dhogyal is remembered.”

Note: Dhogyal is a derogatory term for Dorje Shugden.

The above statement reveals a calculated and malicious plan crafted by the Dalai Lama. Since the time of the 5th Dalai Lama the whole institution of Dalai Lamas has been the source of repeated division, oppression, and violence towards anyone who opposes them. As the leader of Tibetan Buddhists the Dalai Lama should possess both a superior understanding of Buddhadharma and practice of Buddhadharma. From the above statement we can understand that he has deliberately instigated the schism within Buddhism, and therefore is defying Buddha’s teachings. So how can he be considered a Buddhist?

Using perverse logic some have argued that it is those who oppose the Dalai Lama’s ban, that are guilty of committing the heinous action of causing a schism. This is analogous to an arsonist setting fire to a building, and a witness to this action begins yelling to warn others of the danger of the fire. Consequently, the witness is blamed for setting the fire!

5) Linking the survival of Buddhism with the survival of Tibet

The entity that is Tibet, either within China or as a sovereign state is a political construct. The function of politics is to improve samsara (cyclic existence) for oneself or for a group of people. More often than not this ‘improvement’ of samsara comes at the expense of others. China’s invasion of Tibet was illegal, immoral, and completely uncalled for, but this issue has nothing to do with the survival of Dharma. The function of Buddhadharma is to destroy samsara for oneself and others, to permanently escape the unending suffering of ordinary existence. Therefore, politics and Buddhadharma are mutually exclusive from the point of view of their ultimate objectives. It is true that basic political freedoms such as the freedom to practice the religion of your choice are necessary conditions for Dharma to survive. However, these conditions exist in many other countries around the world.

Mandala Magazine, interview with the Dalai Lama (July/Aug. 1995, p.9):

“The freedom of Tibet and the teachings of Buddhism have a strong relationship. They are strongly connected, because if Tibet is able to achieve true and authentic self-government, the Buddhadharma will be able to survive… If this doesn’t turn out to be possible then the teachings won’t survive.”

So why is the Dalai Lama making this ridiculous linkage of the survival of Tibet with the survival of Dharma? There can only be one reason, he is a political leader without a country. He craves the establishment of a geopolitical state from which he can operate, thus endowing himself with even greater control and influence.

Why does he insist on trying to be both a religious leader and a political leader? There can only be one reason, he is intoxicated with maintaining and increasing his power and control over others. His actions are all indicative of a desperate and egotistical ruler. In the final analysis, his mixing politics with Buddhism is a clear contradiction to, and mockery of Buddha’s teachings. Again, how can he be considered to be a Buddhist?

6) Destroying the meaning of Buddhist ordination

The basic motivation for ordination is the mind of renunciation. Renunciation when fully developed is a mind of complete non-attachment. Non-attachment is a wisdom that understands that external objects, (people, places, and things) do not cause our feelings.

It is the delusion of desirous attachment (the belief that certain external phenomena are the cause and source of our pleasant feelings) that binds us tightly to suffering.

In the late 1990’s the Dalai Lama appeared in an advertisement for Apple Computers in its “Think Different” campaign. Explicitly his action is telling us to develop desirous attachment for a computer. This is such an obvious and egregious violation of Buddha’s teachings. Implicitly it shows that it is acceptable for ordained people to prostitute themselves for the sake of consumerism and for the sake of samsara. In 1992 he appeared as a guest editor for the French Vogue fashion magazine. Again, what is the meaning of this action both explicitly and implicitly?

The Dalai Lama has often attended frivolous Hollywood parties and other celebrity driven events. He frequently meets with world leaders to discuss politics. He enjoys a lavish samsaric lifestyle. He always appears at these events wearing the robes of a monk.

These are not the actions of an authentic ordained Buddhist monk or Buddhist leader.

Conclusion

Far from showing the exemplary behavior of a religious leader, the Dalai Lama shows what it means to be a degenerate spiritual practitioner. In reality, his collective actions have the function of destroying Buddhism in this world. Therefore the Dalai Lama is not a Buddhist.

This Dalia lama is not the elected head of anything and has no rights to determine the destiny of anyone, other than himself.

Tibetan Buddhism will recede and a new Buddhism is arising in the West.

A Buddhism protected by the Laws of a Free Society. Not anchored in the past with a medieval theocratic dictatorial potentate of the Dalia Lama lineage.

No longer will any Buddhist Practioner suffer under the whims of a single person's will.

We do not need any authoritarian Lama's approval to believe as we please.

We have cut the ties to the Old World and are free to turn the Wheel Of Dharma.

We are free to express our Love and Compassion.

Without interference from anyone.

Each and every one of us stand individually.

We all Stand Together as One.

Our beliefs are not confused with the Idol Worshipping of another human being as our faith.

We do not take refuge in sentient beings.

We are Free to believe as we choose.

We are free to fight anyone who attempt to steal or interfere with our freedoms.

Do Not Tread On Me!

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 19:17

Geronimo: There are many "Buddhists" who might argue the contrary, that the root of the spiritual path according to Buddha’s teachings is complete faith and reliance of the Dharma.

Of course, this is comparing apples and oranges in regard to the Triple Refuge and its appropriateness within the life and history of institutionalized Sangha, but proper understanding needs to be applied to this, if for no other reason than the fact that the tendency of guru worship has empowered the DL's ability to teach contrary to the Dharma.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 19:35

excuse me... I meant "complete faith and reliance on the Dharma" --- again... the Buddha is "Buddha" because of the Dharma, the Sangha is "Sangha" because of the Dharma, and the Dharma, changless in time and space, is highest in the world.

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 19:49

I have "complete faith and reliance on the Dharma"

The Buddha is "Buddha"

Because of the Dharma,

The Sangha is "Sangha" because of the Dharma,

The Dharma, changless in time and space,

Is highest in the world.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 20:03

Never said that you didn't, my friend --- I'm just playing the role of Devil's Advocate when it comes to dialectics (LOL)

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 20:18

For those unaware of what "Devil's Advocate" means, it is someone who tests the soundness of an argument or position, focusing on the potential weakness of the argument itself.

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 20:38

As is in, "say what you mean and mean what you say"

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 20:47

...as well as "don't make it up as you go along the way" like some people do who will remain nameless (LOL)

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 20:49

In the Dalai Lama's words

"There will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If those who do not accept the ban do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them."

Herein lies the duplicity of a tyrannical,theocratic dictatorial potentate attitude towards the Buddha, Dharma and sangha.

He is neither a Buddhist nor is he a Pope. He is simply a dictator comaprable to any other Dictator in the history of the world.

I have no way to comprehend the destruction he has spread across the World.

I do know what must be done to prevent this disaster from spreadin even farther than it has already.

We must continue to confront and defend ouselves from the delusionary dictates of this man, anywhere and and anytime the oportunity presents itself. Each of us must stand to defeat this full frontal assault on the peaceful practioners of Lord Buddha's Teaching by this Moslem in Saffrom Robes.

He is the "Deceiver".

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 20:58

I've always wondered how the "Mickey Mouse Theme" would sound if it was replaced with the letters of the Dalai Lama's name --- the blatant commercialism is just about the same.

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 21:02

D_A___L-......IIiiiiiI.....Aaaaa___L_ A-M-Aaaa.........dalia lama, dalia lama. Forever raise our baners high

Come along and sing the song, for all our families.

D_ A_L_Iiii_A.....LaMmmm_aaaa

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 21:12

Nope! It doesn't work very well!

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 21:26

Dalai Lama's political ban of a religious practice extends to Switzerland

Will it ever stop? This mixture of politics and religion is already destroying the spiritual lives of many thousands of people in the Tibetan exile community in India, and is spreading its tentacles into the West.

Swiss Resolution regarding the worshipping of Dholgyal

On August 16, 2008, in the local assembly of Tibetan people in Switzerland and Liechtenstein, their Deputies discussed thoroughly with great responsibility. After that, the Local Assembly’s Deputies extended their appreciation to the Resolution (1996) adopted by the majority regarding the worshipping of Dholgyal (Shugden). Due to necessity there is now no option but to add three new resolutions on top of the existing five resolutions. We request all Tibetans who are above 18 years old in Switzerland and Liechtenstein to fully follow the content of these resolutions.

A The five resolutions passed unanimously by the Local Assembly’s Deputies on July 6, 1996 were:

1. The Dholgyal worshipper must completely give up [the practice] henceforth.

2. Those who do not worship Shugden must follow the instruction without falling into the trap of others.

3. You all must invite only those who do not worship Dholgyal, when you need to perform puja for oneself or for the Dalai Lama’s well-being.

4. Be it in private or a group, when you make offerings to the monasteries in Nepal, India, etc, you must do these offerings to those monasteries which do not worship Dholgyal.

5. You must bear in mind the instructions of politics and religion and abide by them without any contradiction.

B Three additional resolutions adopted on August 16, 2008 by the majority during the Second Session of Local Assembly were:

1. Recently a few Dholgyal followers have engaged in baseless criticism against the Dalai Lama in public. This we recognize as a conspiracy to spread rumors through gossip.

2. Those few Tibetans who criticize the Dalai Lama, we recognize them being in the category of Chinese government’s politics, directly, indirectly and thoroughly.

3. We will collect signatures as a truth witness which represents the volunteer support to the above-mentioned points.

Closing with the Micky Mouse Club Fan Song, all participants donned their Club Hat an voted ,"All Ears say, Aye", All opposed, Die!

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 21:32

5. You must bear in mind the instructions of politics and religion and abide by them without any contradiction.

"Contradition" is Dalia's middle name.

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 21:36

1. Recently a few Dholgyal followers have engaged in baseless criticism against the Dalai Lama in public. This we recognize as a conspiracy to spread rumors through gossip.

He says what he is doing and blames others of his misconduct and lying.

He has "No Fear" and he has "No Shame".

If it was not so disgusting, It would be funny to read as a satire or parody play on words of nonsensical nonsense.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 21:37

Hello, Dalai......well, hello, Dalai

It's so nice to have you back where you belong

You're lookin swell, Dalai.......I can tell, Dalai

You're still glowing --

You're still crowing --

You're still going strong.

We feel that room swayin......while the lobbyists are playing

One of your old favourite songs from way back when

So..... take robe, fellas.......find her an empty bowl, fellas

Dalia's never go away again.

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 21:39

Now that is funny!

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 21:41

An old ditty from boys of the National Congressional Choir on Capital Hill in Washington DC

Geronimo
31 August 2008 at 21:56

Do Wa Do Wa ! Do Wa ditty!

I know a man from Kansas City.

He's Barack, and He's Not,

Going to Buy the Dalia's Song!

Do Wa! Do Wa! Do Wa Ditty!

Do Wa! Do Wa! We're not going to take your Ditty!

Get along Lama and sing your song

Do Wa! Do Wa! Do Wa Ditty!

We ain't going to work on your farm,

No More

Do WA! DO WA! DO WA DITTY!

Out the door, goes the kitty

Do wa, Do wa, do wa ditty!

It could go on........and on,

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 21:59

And they think that Buddhists don't have a sense of humor

Geronimo
01 September 2008 at 18:41

We hope that through our actions, international scrutiny will be brought to bear on the Dalai Lama’s lies and actions of religious persecution so that the Tibetans he is oppressing will receive justice and Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world will receive religious freedom.

Dougal
01 September 2008 at 19:01

hi -

i'd like to repost here a reply i just posted in another NS faith blog, bacause i think it has some relevance, and this thread may be more widely read as it is more active right now.

Dechen -

if you're intention is good, then no apology is necessary.

your basic premise is one that is very commonly held, and therefore worthy of discussion: if one accepts the DL as "a great bodhisattva", then it is wrong to voice dissent over his actions, especially because many people *do* have such a belief, or at least they view him as a good person and the most well-known Buddhist, and such speech will destroy their faith.

you are right that there is a great danger of damage being done to people's faith, both in the DL and in Buddhism in general.

the question a Buddhist must ask themselves, thn, is this: is the harm that will be done by speaking out greater than the harm that will be done if I remain silent? if so, then a Bodhisattva will accept defeat and say nothing. on the other hand, if not, then that Bodhisattva, in accordance with his or her vows, *must* speak out.

this does not mean, as many people believe, that the dissenters are necessarily motivated by anger. even the Buddhas act in a wrathful way when appropriate, out of their boundless compassion for living beings. to mistake such actions as in some way unBuddhist is to mistake them; it is inevitable, and a shame, that this will happen: who is to blame? the Bodhisattva, or the delusion in the mind of the suffering being whose action provoked the wrath?

of course, this is unconscionable to those who have blind faith in the DL: unless they are truly courageous they will inevitably feel attacked, and may resort to angry actions themselves in the defence of their "great bodhisattva". this is so sad, so terrible.

you asked: "What is the result of these thoughts and critique. Does it benefit the Tibetan cause. Does it benefit the health of H.H. Dalai Lama."

it does not benefit the Tibetan cause. the Tibetan cause is politics, and this is Dharma. these two have no relation.

it benefits the health of the DL. this man is sick, and anything which can help him to overcome that sickness is of benefit to him.

we do not hate the Dalai Lama - we love the Dalai Lama. we do not approve his deluded actions, and we wish to destroy his delusion.

we are Mahayana Buddhists. this is our responsibility. we publicly discuss our practice of our Deity with regret, because we are forced to by those who would smear and defame us.

your questions demonstrate a good understanding of Buddhist principles, but some misunderstading about our actions and intentions, and those of the DL. i hope that my answers help to at least clarify our views and wishes.

we pray - as all Buddhists pray - that everyone may be happy and everyone may be freed from suffering.

every day, in our Dorje Shugden puja in the Dharma Centre where i live, we pray for the swift recovery and the swift attainment of everlasting peace and happiness of Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama.

Dharmakara
01 September 2008 at 23:53

I have to agree with Dougal... if through our silence we have knowingly allowed someone to suffer or be abuse, then we have also become participants in that suffering or abuse.

This is typically ignored because many practitioners have the tendency to recognize the written letter of a precept, but rarely ever the spirit in which it was first given.

A political agenda in any form is contrary to the Bodhisattva spirit, but it takes on an entirely different scope where with deciet in one's heart they walk a path of greed and deception, bringing harm to those he or she has vowed to liberate.

Geronimo
03 September 2008 at 17:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZhczLKMZck

"Wally Lama" Cartoon

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 14:00

Lets investigate the issues presented?

Over the past 400 years High Sakya and Gelug Lamas (including the Dalai Lama's tutor Trijiang Rinpoche - who has written extensive commentaries on the practice of Dorje Shudgen and still continues to practice Dorje Shugden in his current incarnation) have been devout Dorje Shugden practitioners. These lamas are beyond samsara, Bodhisattvas who incarnate repeatedly in human form to lead us out of samsara. They are not concerned about politics but with the ultimate liberation from samsara- the cycle of suffering. Were they worshipping an evil spirit?

Dorje Shudgen is regarded by his practitioners as the same mental continuum of Wisdom Buddha of Manjushiri and JesongKhapa. If you look at the form of Dorje Shudgen - he reveals the complete path to enlightenment. Let me explain:

He wears a monks robes to indicate pure moral discipline is the foundation for spiritual path, his wisdom sword indicates the need to cut through self grasping ignorance -the root of samsara, his heart of compassion which he holds in his right hand , indicates his conventional Bodhichitta, the snow lion he rides on indicates the four fearlessness of a Buddha and so forth. Simply meditating on the Mandala of Dorje Shugden and his form can lead to many realisations of Sutra and tantra such as renunciation, compassion and emptiness. I know this from personal experience, because I am a Dorje Shudgen practitioner. How can a deity that reveals the complete path to enlightenment be an evil spirit! Once again a logical fallacy. Also Buddha's doctrine on emptiness teaches us that whether someone is a Buddha or a Mara is entirely dependent on our minds.

The HH Dalai Lama has given two reasons for banning the practice of Dorje Shugden;

a) It affects his life and well-being b)it affects the Tibetan cause. If Dorje Shudgen is really is an 'evil spirit/demon/worldly god' how can it affect the HH Dalai Lama - who is said to be the incarnation of Buddha Avalokiteshvara. When BuddhaShayamuni was about to attain enlightenment, Devaputra mara tried to obstruct his spiritual progress by throwing weapons at him but Buddha transformed the weapons into flowers through his meditation on love. After-all the HH Dalai Lama is said to be an enlightened being- the Buddha of Compassion. Why can't he do the same? Buddha has taught that for a Buddhist there are no external enemies simply our internal enemies of delusions and this applies to the so called 'evil spirits' (if that is what the Dalai Lama regards Dorje Shugden to be) - who were once our mothers too.

To be fair to the Dalai Lama, he has never self- proclaimed that he is an enlightened being. He is in reality a politician (a skilful -one at that too )using his spiritual authority for political and worldly aims. I am sure his oracle Nechug (who is infact a worldly spirit and well- known for getting predictions wrong - such as Tibet will be free in 2000) has had a large part to play in this. In fact there are sources that reveal that it is through Nechug's influence the HH Dalai Lama's mind towards the englightened Dorje Shugden changed. Afterall - it is with Dorje Shugden's help that the Dalai Lama escaped from Tibet and Dalai Lama himself was a devout practitioner of Dorje Shugden until the age of 50.

Just because someone opposes the Dalai Lama's actions of destroying many people's spiritual lives does not mean they are in league with the Chinese. Making the link between the two is an undoutable logical fallacy and a result of propaganda. What the Chinese have done to the Tibetan people is despicable to say the least. However, although they may have harmed and killed Tibetans, they never destroyed the unity of the Tibetans nor their rich spiritual heritage. The ban against the practise of Dorje Shugden instigated by the Dalai Lama has done exactly this. Tibetans are turning on Tibetans. This is really sad and heart breaking. (If you are unsure of what I am talking about - please watch the documentary called 'the dalai Lama and dorje Shudgen' in You tube)

History tells us that politics and religion never mix and what is happening is a clear indication of why they don't.

shaza
08 September 2008 at 09:43

Hi Chelvi,

--------------------------'''Simply meditating on the Mandala of Dorje Shugden and his form can lead to many realisations of Sutra and tantra such as renunciation, compassion and emptiness. I know this from personal experience, because I am a Dorje Shudgen practitioner.""

So you are saying you have already realized emptiness with the help of Shugden?

Strange thing is Shugden has no basis in Sutra and Tantra and never mentioned in the words of Je Tshongkhapa.

If you really read Trijang's book carefully, you will know Shugden is but a lama who arranges his own death so he can turn into a ghost to protect his idea of Gelug's 'purity', no matter how improbable it may sound.

----------------------------'' In fact there are sources that reveal that it is through Nechug's influence the HH Dalai Lama's mind towards the englightened Dorje Shugden changed. "

One of DL's suspicion of Shugden came fromhis senior tutor HH Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, who cautioned DL to be careful for taking Nyingma teachings because of the fear that the sectarian Shugden might chastise him. Of course the publication of the Yellow Book in the early 70's was also a major catalyst.

---------------------------''Afterall - it is with Dorje Shugden's help that the Dalai Lama escaped from Tibet and Dalai Lama himself was a devout practitioner of Dorje Shugden until the age of 50.'''

Your spin is even more outrageous than the WSS propaganda.

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/en/protesting/dalai-lam...

'''''''''“The Dalai Lama himself was trained in this tradition, and for 40 years relied upon Dorje Shugden, even composing a prayer of his own praising Dorje Shugden and requesting his help. Then, suddenly in 1975 he abandoned the practice because he had ‘discovered’ Dorje Shugden was a harmful spirit! ”'''''''

The WSS site says Dalai Lama stopped worshipping in 1975.

But you have know the Dalai was born in 1935. He started worshipping Shugden around 1951.

Go figure it out.

Best

Shaza

Tenzin Peljor
08 September 2008 at 11:54

An overview on academic researches regerding the Dorje Shugden Controersy can be found here:

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/academ...

My thoughts about Fundamentalism and Buddhism together with an extensive link section can be found here:

http://buddhism-and-fundamentalism.blogspot.com/

Thoughts about mixing Dharma with Politics can be found here.

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/mixing...

A less partisan summery of the conflict can be found here:

http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html

Duldzin
08 September 2008 at 12:46

A response to Shaza.

Dear Shaza (also my kind mother),

It is hard with typed words on a blog to decipher one’s intention, so I thought I will express myself explicitly so that your are aware of my intentions. I respond to your response to my comment with NO ill-intent and with the hope to clarify for yourself and to the general reader the issues at hand.

I also want to thank you from the bottom from my heart for capturing the human essence of this Dorje Shugden ‘controversy!

I cut and paste from your above comment in response to mine. (Reader please refer to the above comment by Shaza which is a response to my comment above titled ‘Lets investigate the issues presented’)

You quoted me:

'''Simply meditating on the Mandala of Dorje Shugden and his form can lead to many realisations of Sutra and tantra such as renunciation, compassion and emptiness. I know this from personal experience, because I am a Dorje Shudgen practitioner.""

AND IN RESPONSE YOU SAID:

So you are saying you have already realized emptiness with the help of Shugden?

I ARREST MY CASE – THIS IS IN A NUTSHELL CAPTURES THE ESSENCE OF WHAT THIS ‘CONTROVERSY’ IS ABOUT. NOT ONLY IS THIS IN COMPLETE CONTRADICTION TO BUDDHA’S WISDOM TEACHINGS ON EMPTINESS (please refer to my above post, ‘Let’s investigate the issues presented) IT IS AN INFRINGEMENT ON HUMAN RIGHTS (TO BE SPECFIC IT BREAKS ARTICLE 14 OF THE HUMANS RIGHTS ACT)! WE ONLY NEED TO LOOK AT HISTORY TO SEE WHERE THIS KIND OF BELIEFS HAVE TAKEN US…..

SO DALAI LAMA (ALSO MY KIND MOTHER) STOP LYING! DALAI LAMA GIVE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM! DALAI LAMA STOP PERSECUTING TIBETAN SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS! DALAI STOP MIXING POLITICS WITH RELIGION!

For the general reader: These words directed at the Dalai Lama may seem harsh. As Buddhists our main practice is Compassion, tolerance and loving kindness. Compassion, however is not passive. An example is that of a mother who out of strong compassion tells her child off using strong language for doing something harmful. Similarly, the meaning behind these strong words directed towards the Dalai Lama are ‘DALAI LAMA STOP HURTING YOURSELF AND STOP DESTROYING MANY PEOPLE’S SPIRITUAL LIVES’.

I thank you Shaza for giving me the opportunity to illustrate this point to the general public. The reader can make up their own minds. I wish you all the best in your chosen spiritual path. I pray that Shudgen practitioners will too have the freedom to practice their spiritual path without harassment and discrimination.

I end with a quote from Buddha himself - which another blogger had used in his argument - which I have responded to;

""It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them."

Love and prayers,

Chelvi

p.s: If I have made mistakes about dates etc I apologise.

Dougal
08 September 2008 at 14:21

less partizan??

Tenzin, you - one of the most vehement, prolific and obsessive anti-Shugden/anti-NKT posters on the world web web, with your several, various anti websites and blogs (including info-buddhism.com and info-buddhismus.de) - "less partizan"???

:-D

my friend - that would be hilarious were it not for the fact that lying is a breach of your "Bhikkshu" vows.

Dougal
08 September 2008 at 14:25

also - i know i told you i was out of here, but Tenzin's got me going again, so...

Shaza (ok, i accept that you're not Tenzin now, your English is better) -

here's a post from another blog which i feel is relevant here, as these threads are devolving into theological debate about the nature of Dorje Shugden, and THAT IS NOT THE POINT. this guy sums it up well:

"#08/09/2008 00:21:02 Alert a moderator

Myriad hair splitting debates doesn't change the harm done

By practitioner USA

If you check the people supporting the Dalai Lama on this issue have put themselves in the position where they need to justify the harm being done to the Dorje Shugden practitioners. So they say they are violent, terrorists, fundamentalists, cultish, etc. If you examine carefully these are being voiced as justifications of the actions being taken by many Tibetans including the Dalai Lama to get rid of the practice (and implicitly people holding onto the practice). If we analyze the great tragedies of persecution and marginalization that have occurred in recent history they are often performed in the name of what is morally expedient and the actions are justified by demonizing the victims as somehow deserving of the harm done. If you check the truth of these words you will see that is exactly what the anti-Dorje Shugden people are saying here...

Its time to stop reasoning from madness. If you consider yourself a Buddhist how can you harm others?

The most entertaining aspect of this debate is watching the fanatical criticism of anyone who is speaking up about these unethical actions... Just for protesting, writing letters, blogging, etc they are being called cult members, fanatical, chinese agents, and incapable of independent thought. I have news for you nobody is being harmed by these protests. Going and holding signs isn't creating turmoil. However if you talk to Tibetans in the USA about what is going on with the signature campaign you will find this is not a 300 year old problem. It's a ten year old problem and the Dalai Lama is causing far worse division within the Tibetan community now with his speech than has ever existed with respect to this issue ever before. It doesn't matter how many lamas agree with the Dalai Lama; what's being done isn't right. Please wake up..."

shaza
08 September 2008 at 17:36

Hi Dougal

-----------------"here's a post from another blog which i feel is relevant here, as these threads are devolving into theological debate about the nature of Dorje Shugden, and THAT IS NOT THE POINT. this guy sums it up well: "

well, you said a Bodisattva should not destroy a beautiful and valid practice like Shugden.

all i have been trying to demonstrate is it should be destroyed because it's harmful and invalid.

unless you don't think it matters whether Shugden is harmful or not.

and the guy you quote has a serious problem understanding the debate here. It's not hair splitting as he says because there is a gulf of difference between GKG's version of Shugden and what Trijang and Pabongkha taught about him.

There's actually one way out of it.

Admit GKG has a higher authority than Trijang and Pabongkha and he could purify and censor his teachers' deluded teachings on Shugden.

If you can appeal to GKG's spiritual authority in this regard, maybe you will have a stronger case.

Best

Shaza

shaza
08 September 2008 at 18:01

Hi Chelvi,

---------------------""I ARREST MY CASE – THIS IS IN A NUTSHELL CAPTURES THE ESSENCE OF WHAT THIS 'CONTROVERSY' IS ABOUT. NOT ONLY IS THIS IN COMPLETE CONTRADICTION TO BUDDHA'S WISDOM TEACHINGS ON EMPTINESS (please refer to my above post, 'Let's investigate the issues presented) IT IS AN INFRINGEMENT ON HUMAN RIGHTS (TO BE SPECFIC IT BREAKS ARTICLE 14 OF THE HUMANS RIGHTS ACT)! WE ONLY NEED TO LOOK AT HISTORY TO SEE WHERE THIS KIND OF BELIEFS HAVE TAKEN US….. ""

sorry, you lost me here.

you have to explain why a fair question about your experience that you brought up yourself was in complete contradiction to Buddha's teachings.

you did say you knew from your personal experience that "[s]imply meditating on the Mandala of Dorje Shugden and his form can lead to many realisations of Sutra and tantra such as renunciation, compassion and emptiness", didn't you?

--------------------"p.s: If I have made mistakes about dates etc I apologise."

no need to apologise because to give you the benefit of the doubt, i think you didn't lie.

You were just uncritically repeating the words of others without checking them first.

Best

Shaza

Dougal
09 September 2008 at 01:00

Shaza -

judging by your comments so far, i'm not sure that you'll understand this, and so this reasoning may not work for you. however, i'll try.

since the time of Lord Buddha, the Dharma as been passed down from Guru to disciple. by relying sincerely on the advice of the Guru, the disciple practises sincerely and thereby gains their own direct experience of the Dharma taught to them. they then become a suitable person to be relied upon as a Guru and to pass on this lineage of realization to their own disciples.

this is the way it has always been.

therefore, neither the Dalai Lama nor GKG can be a higher authority than Trijang Rinpoche, their Guru (or one of them - one can have many, but the DL himself described Trijang Rinpoche as a "root Guru" of his, and GKG's devotion to TR is well-known).

GKG does indeed hold a higher authority than the DL here, because he has never gone against the advice of his Guru, Trijang Rinpoche, whereas the Dalai Lama has broken his samaya, which Buddha said is a cause of losing all one's previous experience of Dharma.

however - once again, this is getting away from the point. i did indeed get into debate with you on the validity or otherwise of Dorje Shugden practice (and you made a good job of kicking me round the debating hall with your quotations from Zemey Rinpoche's - imho, not to-be-taken-literally - storybook!), but i now realise that that, while interesting, is of very little relevance in this debate on human rights.

as has been mentioned elsewhere, if i wish to worship a tree, i should be able to do so free from fear of intimidation and persecution. so what need is there (to use a favourite bit of Tibetan rhetoric) to speak of a widely-practised and generally well-loved Buddhist lineage?

whatever you think of Dorje Shugden practice and its supposed sectarian results, nothing even remotely approacing this terrible schism in the Sangha and division of the Tibetan community existed anywhere before the DL's ban in 1996.

anyway - i said i was out of here, and so now i am - at least until the next time i'm unable to restrain myself...

shaza
09 September 2008 at 12:56

Hi Dougal

I already replied in another thread....guess i will stop posing the same answer in diff threads.. :)

AdamAW
09 September 2008 at 17:02

Dear Friendoftruth,

thank you so much for your essay. It is so good. Why don't you submit it to the WSS and ask it they would like to publish it?

I would like it to reach the widest possible audience as I think it presents the situation in a very nice way.

Geronimo
09 September 2008 at 22:14

In Bloomington, Indiana, we built the Cultural Center at the request of the Dalia Lama to act as a respository for the Vast Treasure Trove of Knowledge that appeared at the time of the Cultural Revolution appeared to have dismal possibilities of surviving with any kind of substance.This was before the fame of Dlai Lama was world renowned and he was teaching to maybe 30 or 40 people and no security guads or admission fees. Just one on one! Now this was real and dharma proliferated and flourished in Southern Indiana and Wisconsin. Now there it called "The Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center" and DL consecrated a Temple in the back where Tagster was cremated today.

Years later in 1996,everything changed with his stepping over the boundaries of our differing cultures by violating others Religious Beliefs and Persecuting and only one of the 1,000 Dieties of the Mahayanna Buddhist Pathenon, Shri Dorje Shugden.

I hade no idea at the time, who or what Dorje Shugden was or is, nat a clue. No one enlisted me with the knowledge I and others share here and elsewhere.I had to listen and question and figure it out by myself. When within myself after about nine months and I realized that the Dalia lama's predecessors came to power by the extinguishment of a Wisdom Buddha's Life, Lord Dorje Shugden,. I realized for me, was the truth. I was shattered beyond description and literally wept uncontrollably for nine[9] hours. So great was my grief and how shattered was my faith in a friend, whom I had met in 1969 and received many blessings and katas and given many in exchange, He, his brother,Tagster and I used to laugh till we dropped.

I do know that the stuff that is going on in the name of Lord Buddha has nothing to do with Tibet and it should not be confused as the same. If you think for a minute that this is really fun.Then you are mistaken.

Once I realized what was what, we bought over 20 Tibetan Mahayanna Buddhist Monks and built Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang Rinpoche, first Monasery dedicated to the Preservation of the Teachngs of Je T'songkhapa and Shri Dorje Shugden being it's Protector forever, known as Dagom Geden Tensung Ling Monastery, here in the New World of The Red Men . The Wheel Of Dharma turned to the Land of The Red Men. Just as Lord Buddha said it would before any of US, knew there was a Land Of The Red Men.

It would be normal for all of us to rejoice in the establishment of the dharma here in the West. Instead we are attacked for preserving the Teachings and humiliated in the media as devil worshippers. Wellif this is true for us.Then it is true for all Tibetan Mahayanna Buddhist are in fact, "Demon Worshippers".Maybe you've heard the phrase,What's good for the goose, Is good for the Gander". All any of this is doing is gving everyone a Black Eye.

If he Christian Fundamentalist ever really get a handle of the nature of this form of Buddhism. We all might all get hung up and disembowelled.

Get my drift?

Everyine thinks Tibetans are Smurfs, for now, That is cute and cuddly. This year has shown another face of the Ancient Tribalism of Tibet conflicting values with a modern Nation State.

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Dharmakara: 9/8/2008 10:57:00 PM +1

Geronimo: This might be the equivalent of openning Pandora's Box, but I've never understood how Dorje Shugden can be singled out --- there are others within the pantheon of protector deities which appear to be much more wrathful.

Is this what you're referring to?

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Geronimo: 9/8/2008 11:42:00 PM +1

That's my point, Why, with so many others.Norbu once asked me what I would do, if one of those wrathful looking dieties actually came walking across the field to me. The idea intrigued me, once having appreciated tTeh Grateful Dead'. He said with all sincerity, I would run away, very fast. I laughed, but knew it was true.

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Geronimo: 9/9/2008 8:22:00 AM +1

Oh negative energy abounds out there even now. Kunyang and Jigme took funds and hundreds of thousands of them for years for their own personal use. They also took money out of the equity of the buildings out there--well over a million dollars supposedly from that alone. Then the bank who hadn't been paid in forever foreclosed and it went up to one day before a sheriffs sale before

H.H. was able to get the money together to stave the banks off for a month or something. Then in the end he had to ask four very wealthy people he knew personally to save it, which they did, by paying off all of the loans. Meanwhile Kunyang and Jigme still drive around town in very expensive automobiles, still have their restaurants and lots of rental property. So in 2003 I think it was

the entire place was re-organized and the Norbu family had to sign off of everything out there. So Norbu has been and was being taken care of by monks and lay tibetan men or he would have been in a nursing home. The house they built for themselves in the back part of those 108 acres .

I believe Kunyang no longer lived there even. So yeah, bad blood as they say.

I am the only person around here that gave significant money to the center over the years that is still around. And I left town and only came and went now and then. For a long time the Norbus and (Mr. Norbu was not sick at this time) kept the gates locked and you couldn't even go out there.

But during those years I always figured he needed that privacy. I mean you know what a life, made him kind of crazy in my opinion.

When all the re-organization happened, Dalai Lama appointed Arji Rinpoches to head the center. In short, it's been more of the same and worse.

Arji 's story is difficult to be sure, but he is a real dictator and doesn't like women except to be the oh the great one! Oh kow tow! You know how it is...a very male oriented society even if the women in Tibet had a measure of more freedom that those in the rest of Asia .

he was tight with the communists for years after his release from prison camp for supposedly 16 years. You know the whole story is never told...

So more of the same, the 'public' will not be allowed to attend the traditional cremation...Such bs. Compare that to little Lama Yesche, who didn't even hold a gesche degree but had more flourishing centers world

wide than just about any one else! He wanted all people who could come from all over the world to attend his cremation--his final teachings. He died at age 49. So it goes with the Norbu family. Kunyang is out there along with Jigme strutting around 'in control' for a short time again. Never learned, just never learned. Meanwhile Jetsun Pema was sent immediately by H.H. to supervise the arrangements, and of course Pare Rinpoche is there. I think H.H. sent Pare rinpoche for this purpose I really do, to see his brother out!

Inside the Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center and the Dalia Lama's family having fun in the USA.

Geronimo
10 September 2008 at 16:56

This Dalia Lama contradicts the Vinaya,Democratic Principles and has betrayed all Freedom Loving People around the world.

His incursions to repress others Rights to their own belifs is motivated by his own fears that he will be found out to have extinuished the life force of a Wisdom Buddha.

His predecessor, the 5th Dalia Lama ruthlessly seized power by the assassination of Lord Dorje Shugden, and the slaughtering with the full force of the Mongolian Cavalry bearing down on other Monastic Seats, within Tibetan Mahayanna Buddhism.

Today, as his own life force ebbs away. We find a man filled with desperation to establish his lineages claim, as forthright and to mirror the illusions, that he is a man of compassion and peace. A light unto the world,is his personal mirror.

When in actuality, he has pursued a sinister trail of decits and lying to protect his precious vision of himself for over 400 years. As a hungry ghost, he cannot satisfy his lust for power.

We can tell what he is, by the fruit he bears. This fruit has become spoiled and rotten with “The Three Poisons” as the basis of his thoughts, actions and deeds.

He become corrupted with his lust to be a part of the most corrupt of Hollywood society and the admiration of corrupt global leaders. As with George Bush, a man who will soon be brought to trial for his crimes against humanity and violating the US Constitution.

So will this Dalia Lama be brought to trial,in the Indian Courts. For violating the Indian Constitution provisions for freedom of religion. Which clearly protect all people’s right to believe as they choose.

“Birds Of A Feather, Flock Together”

AdamAW
10 September 2008 at 17:35

Dear Geronimo,

you're a star! I rejoice from the depths of my heart in the great wave of your deeds, and your sincerity in helping to preserve the real heritage of Tibet - i.e the pure unadulterated Dharma and not just the cultural trappings.

You seem to me like the West's answer to Kundeling - a bit outrageous at times but absolutely brilliant. Don't you dare stop educating and entertaining us!

n.b. I love the "Everyone thinks Tibetans are Smurfs." My dad said a friend of his called them "the seal-pups of the international community." It seems we have some difficulty recognising humans as humans, and having a mind of equanimity and equal compassion for all.

Best Wishes

shaza
10 September 2008 at 21:19

Hi Geronimo

---------------------------------------"His predecessor, the 5th Dalia Lama ruthlessly seized power by the assassination of Lord Dorje Shugden, and the slaughtering with the full force of the Mongolian Cavalry bearing down on other Monastic Seats, within Tibetan Mahayanna Buddhism. "

According to Trijang Rinpoche, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was not killed by the Fifth Dalai Lama.

He arranged his own death with the help of Nechung after he realised he had to die so that his ghost arise as Shugden and kept his promise to protect the Gelug.

"Accordingly, going back to the last vision for a moment, not only had he received the command and commitment from his direct and lineage gurus such as Je Tsongkhapa who were of the sae mental continuum as the Arhat Upagupta, it is also pleased him to hear it in the words of exhortation from that Protector of the Four Places, the Dharma King Nechung, and he had a vision of arising as a lord of the wrathful ones with an entourage of wrathful spirits and wrathful offerings. Yet his wish to arise as a protector of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings and the opportunity of the circumstances that would converge between the Great Fifth Dalai Lama and Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who were two great beings like the sun and the moon, seemed remote at the time. How quickly the commitments joined as one, he was enthroned, and so forth, as a great powerful wrathful protector of the Geden teachings, can generate conviction, as well.

When strangled with the scarf by those evil‐minded ones,

Through the force of bodhicitta you arose as an overlord of wrathful ones,

And, day and night, with various terrifying manifestations,

Frightened even the courageous, praise to you!

Then, when he remembered his previous promise, he

went to Pehar's temple and said to the Dharma King Nechung, 'Now I remember my previous promise, so what should I do?' The Dharmapala said, 'I can perform the activities to take care of that!' Soon after that, emanations of the Dharma King Nechung, hosts of travelers from all over, including many from Kham, eastern Tibet, came to Lhasa and sought audience and made offerings to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen at the upper residence, in numbers that seemed to eclipse even those seeking audience with the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama's Ganden Palace was referred to as the lower residence and Dragpa Gyaltsen's Palace was referred to as the upper residence and people were talking as if the upper and lower residences of Drepung were practically equal in stature. Moreover, in the center of the rows of monks attending the great offering and prayer festival of Lhasa they made Dragpa Gyaltsen's thron higher than the Dalai Lama's. By this and other various means, Desi Sonam Chöpel and other attendants at the Ganden Palace were made unbearably jealous and sought a chance to kill Dragpa Gyltsen. The auspicious time for Dragpa Gyaltsen's promise to be fulfilled had also arrived so, when he was thirty‐eight, on the twenty‐fifth day of the fourth month of the fire monkey year, he pretended a sudden illness which he said was due to 'nyen' spirits and made his preparations. On the thirteenth of the fifth month, Desi Sonam Chopel's brother named Depa Norbu or Nangso Norbu, in league with the evil Desi, under pretext of illness, came secretly to where Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was staying in the large bedroom of the house where he was born, called 'ga kha sa pa'xxviii, with the intention of killing him. No matter how hard he tried to stab him with his weapon, however, it would not penetrate the skin, so he stuffed a silk scarf down his throat until he died."

(p.93ff, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors)

Best

Shaza

Geronimo
10 September 2008 at 23:43

TOO MANY SECRETS!

Eyes appeared on his body with each stab attempt by an uneducated ,illiterate ploughboy, tilling the Onion Fields became jealous. Check out "Sacred Art Of Tibet/page 102/ Tibet House/1991/ Thurman explains the relationships . The Founder of Tibet House, my lama, H. H. Domo Geshe Rinpoche pointed this out to me, and the revelance of theToyo Bunko as the Key for me, to understand this tragedy of deceit and murder.

I'll take his guidance and word on the subject..

As I am certain he was there.

You know whom I am speaking?

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 00:40

Now, I am thinking they are Gremlins l or is it Gremlins ll.

Papa Smurf might have been a Pappa, but he always listened to the other Smurfs and theyived happily in their Smurf Houses.

Unlike these Gremlins, who are always messing with stuff and causing trouble with a who cares attitude, never mind whose cleaning up their messes.

I like to think of us as Ewoks!.

Merry little creatures,always ready to take on the Dark Forces. No matter the size of the Emperor's Imperial Forces.

" Use the Force, Luke! Use the Force!

It is a question of Light versus the Dark Force. Isn't it?

Lies, deceit can always be shown for what they are. Lies, deceit and a Cheating Heart

Will Tell On You"

You can run, but you cannot hide,

From the Light's Truth

It always shows you the way.

As the story goes when,

Light searched the Universe and could never find the Darkness.

Will tell on you

"Confederation of Shambala Warriors"

Council Of Vajra Elders

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 01:58

Dalia Lama, Samdong, Tenzin Peljor , it's time to mend your ways! Right Away without delays, because as they say,

"A pig with lip stick, is still a pig!"

A man in robes is not a monk nor a lama!

Just a man in robes!

Unless, a Man in Robes is Actually

Practicing the Precepts of Lord Buddha

He is just a man with robes,

neither a monk,

nor a lama.

This Makes All of You Just Lying Men in Robes!

Neither a monk, nor a lama!

Practice the Precepts of Lord Buddha!

Become Monks or a Lamas, or Just Be Anyone, trying to Practice the Perfect Precepts Of Lord Buddha.

Follow The Way!

Practice The Precepts!

Say the Truth!

Redeem Yourself!

Of Your Self-Cherishing Ways!

Peace & Blessings Are Everyone’s Rights!"

Confederation of Shambala Warriors"

Council Of Vajra Elders

Thomas Canada

shaza
11 September 2008 at 11:23

Hi Geronimo,

------------------------------------------" Eyes appeared on his body with each stab attempt by an uneducated ,illiterate ploughboy, tilling the Onion Fields became jealous. Check out "Sacred Art Of Tibet/page 102/ Tibet House/1991/ Thurman explains the relationships . The Founder of Tibet House, my lama, H. H. Domo Geshe Rinpoche pointed this out to me, and the revelance of theToyo Bunko as the Key for me, to understand this tragedy of deceit and murder. "

So you are saying we should all believe what Tomo Geshe said and not Trijang Rinpoche?

Trijang was quick to "absolve" the 5th Dalai Lama from any doings with Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's death. (p.96, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors)

Best

Shaza

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 19:08

I'm not saying anything to you doug!

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 20:27

Tibet: The Shangri-La that exists only in the West's imagination

By Kevin Deluca

Article Last Updated: 09/01/2008 11:33:21 PM MDT

With the Olympics over, I hope the Western sport of bashing China over Tibet might stop.

Working in Beijing during the Tibet riots and the preparations for the Olympics gave me a unique perspective. Growing up with Western media and Hollywood, I am used to our embrace of the Dalai Lama. Being in China, I saw the Chinese point of view.

Seeing both sides suggests the need to abandon simplistic political stances in favor of some self-reflection and historical context.

Although we should criticize China's censored media, the Tibet riots revealed some troubling blindness among our own media. While the causes of Tibetan unrest are complex, it is clear that the March riots were started by Tibetan protesters and that they were quite violent. Indeed, they were violent enough to lead the Dalai Lama to threaten resignation if his followers did not stop the violence.

Since "violent Tibetan" does not fit our stereotype, our media fixed the news. While Chinese media showed extensive footage of violence and interviews with Chinese and Tibetan victims, Western media manipulated images and even showed footage from other countries (Nepal and India) in order to paint a picture of ruthless oppression by China's government.

Chinese media exposed the Western media manipulations, forcing the BBC, N-TV and RTL-TV to apologize. Not surprisingly, the American media has yet to acknowledge

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its bending of the truth. The point is that while the Chinese know their media is censored and do not trust it, we believe our news is objective and end up being righteous while misinformed.

If we had seen the violence of the Tibet riots, our condemnations may be more nuanced. Quite simply, no government, democratic or not, allows such violence within its own borders. Providing peace and stability, even by force if necessary, is what governments do.

Large and powerful countries tend to have regions that were not always part of the country. In America, we proudly call it Manifest Destiny and never trouble ourselves with how we got much of California and Texas from Mexico, never mind the rest of the country and our sordid history with Native Americans.

On the Chinese flag there are five stars commonly interpreted as representing the five major ethnic groups in China. One of those stars represents Tibetans. China's claim to Tibet spans centuries and it is a claim that the United States and the rest of the world recognizes.

To Chinese people, removing one of those stars is akin to removing one of our states, such as Hawaii. Our history with the native people of Hawaii has been relatively brief and quite brutal and there exists a tenacious independence movement. Still, there is no talk in the mainstream media and among the Hollywood celebrity activist circuit of Hawaiian independence, not to mention Puerto Rican independence or the American Indian movement.

Government repression of these movements also escapes media scrutiny. Before we lecture China, we may want to tend to our own backyard.

Amid cries of "free Tibet" and calls for religious freedom, the question is what does freedom have to do with Tibet? Under the Dalai Lama, was there religious freedom? Was there any freedom? Actually, no.

We would recognize the Dalai Lama's Tibet as a medieval religious theocracy with a small elite class served by a large and oppressed serf population. The Dalai Lama ruled a region with no religious freedom, no political freedom, indeed, no human rights of any kind. The rulers were ruthless. Torture and mutilation were widespread. Poverty and starvation were rampant. It was Shangri-La only in the West's imagination.

Richard Gere, Sharon Stone and other Hollywood devotees may be surprised at their idol's current positions. The Dalai Lama condemns abortion and homosexuality while accepting prostitution. For decades the Dalai Lama secured millions of dollars from the CIA and runs his government in exile like a monarch.

Despite its shortcomings, Chinese rule has provided the Tibetan region with infrastructure and public schooling and provides Tibetans with widespread opportunities and a degree of personal freedom unheard of under the feudal theocracy of the dalai lamas.

China is far from perfect and deserves honest scrutiny and criticism. To expect China not to act like a large and powerful country, however, and to throw stones from our glass house, proves nothing but our own ignorance.

---

* KEVIN DELUCA is an associate professor of communications at the University of Utah and author of "Image Politics."

Geronimo
12 September 2008 at 05:40

10

Sep

08Open Letter to Robert Thurman from the Western Shugden Society

post info

By goldenmala

Categories: western shugden society

Tags: bob thurman, buddhist taliban, dorje shugden, dorje shugden controversy, gelugpa, kagyu, nyingma, robert thurman, sakya, sectarianism, shugden

This letter was posted on the Western Shugden Society website today:

An Open Letter

To Robert Thurman,

We the Western Shugden Society are writing this letter regarding your previous public statement that Shugden people are sectarian, naming them “the Buddhist Taliban”; and your recent public statement that the Western Shugden Society protestors are “working for the Chinese”.

As you know, Shugden people want to practice the Gelug tradition purely, without mixing with the Nyingma tradition. Because of this the Dalai Lama has said to Shugden people that they are sectarian. In truth, the Nyingmapa also want to practice their Nyingma tradition purely without mixing with the Gelug tradition; and it is the same for the Sakyapa and Kagyupa. So according to the Dalai Lama’s view, the Nyingmapa, Sakyapa and Kagyupa are also sectarian, but he only says that Shugden people are sectarian. In reality he is lying.

If you, Robert Thurman, are not yourself lying, then you must show your evidence to prove your public statements: that Shugden people are sectarian, “the Buddhist Taliban” as you named them; and that the Western Shugden Society is working for the Chinese. You should show your evidence publicly through the internet before 25th October 2008. If your evidence does not appear by this date then we will conclude that you have lied publicly and are misleading people.

Sincerely,

Western Shugden Society

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2 Responses to “Open Letter to Robert Thurman from the Western Shugden Society”

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1 Thom

September 12, 2008 at 1:02 am

Inside the Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center with the Dalia Lama’s family having fun.

In 1979 in Bloomington,Indiana. We built the Tibetan Cultural Center at the request of the Dalia Lama, to act as a respository for the Vast Treasure Trove of Knowledge. Which at that time, the Cultural Revolution appeared to have litle chance of surviving with any kind of substance.

Before the fame of Daliai Lama was world renowned and he was teaching to maybe 30 or 40 people and no security guards or admission fees. Just one on one! Now this was very nice and dharma flourished in Southern Indiana and Wisconsin.

Years later in 1996. Everything changed with his stepping over the boundaries of our differing cultures by violating others Religious Beliefs and Persecuting only one of the 1,000 Dieties of the Mahayanna Buddhist Pathenon, Shri Dorje Shugden. The same that the 5th took measures to eradicate before seizeing absolute control over Tibet, with the full power of the Mongolian Cavalry slaughtering his opposition.

I do know that the stuff that is going on in the name of Lord Buddha and Tibet, has nothing to do with The Teachings of Buddha ,and it should not be confused as the same.

The Lamas bought over 20 Tibetan Mahayanna Buddhist Monks. We proceeded to build Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang Rinpoche first Monastery in the Americas. He dedicated this monastery to the Preservation of the Teachngs of Je T’songkhapa.

Gonsar Tulku enshrined Shri Dorje Shugden to be the Protector of Dagom Geden Tensung Ling Monastery, forever,

Just as Lord Buddha said, “The Wheel Of Dharma, will turn to the Land of the Red Men” where it will flourish.

It would be normal for all Buddhist Practioners to rejoice in the establishment of the dharma in the West.

Instead, we are attacked for Preserving the Teachings and Humiliated in the media as Devil Worshippers.

This year has shown the true face of Tibet’s Ancient Tribalism conflicting values and Priciples with Modern Nation States.

Now, we have people like Taliban Bob Thurman appointed to sit as Chair of the Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center. Where the reports from the locals go like this and the liars and deceivers as Bob and his compatriots continue to run amuck and steal what they can, while they can get away with it.

“Oh negative energy abounds out there even now. Kunyang and Jigme Norbu took funds and hundreds of thousands of them for years for their own personal use. They also took money out of the equity of the buildings out there–well over a million dollars supposedly from that alone. Then the bank who hadn’t been paid in forever foreclosed and it went up to one day before a sheriffs sale before would have confiscated the proeperty.

H.H. was able to get the money together to stave the banks off for a month or something. Then in the end he had to ask four very wealthy people he knew personally to save it, which they did, by paying off all of the loans. Meanwhile Kunyang and Jigme still drive around town in very expensive automobiles, still have their restaurants and lots of rental property. So in 2003 I think it was

The entire place was re-organized and the Norbu family had to sign off of everything out there. So Norbu has been and was being taken care of by monks and lay tibetan men or he would have been in a nursing home. The house they built for themselves in the back part of those 108 acres .

I believe Kunyang no longer lived there even. So yeah, bad blood as they say. Jetsun Pema showed up and hair went up on end with her sister-in-law.

I am the only person around here that gave significant money to the center over the years that is still around. And I left town and only came and went now and then. For a long time the Norbus and (Mr. Norbu was not sick at this time) kept the gates locked and you couldn’t even go out there.

But during those years I always figured he needed that privacy. I mean you know what a life, made him kind of crazy in my opinion.

When all the re-organization happened, Dalai Lama appointed Arji Rinpoches to head the center. In short, it’s been more of the same and worse.

Arji ’s story is difficult to be sure, but he is a real dictator and doesn’t like women except to be the oh the great one! Oh kow tow! You know how it is…a very male oriented society even if the women in Tibet had a measure of more freedom that those in the rest of Asia .

He was tight with the communists for years after his release from prison camp for supposedly 16 years. You know the whole story is never told…

So more of the same, the ‘public’ will not be allowed to attend the traditional cremation for Tagster Norbu.

Compare that to little Lama Yesche, who didn’t even hold a gesche degree but had more flourishing centers world wide than just about any one else! He wanted all people who could come from all over the world to attend his cremation–his final teachings. He died at age 49. So it goes with the Norbu family. Kunyang is out there along with Jigme strutting around ‘in control’ for a short time again. Never learned, just never learned. Meanwhile Jetsun Pema was sent immediately by H.H. to supervise the arrangements, and of course Pare Rinpoche is there. I think H.H. sent Pare rinpoche for this purpose I really do, to see his brother out!

This is the way Bod deals with the rustics in Indiana. He will do little but use it a podium to further lie and deceive the wide-eyed western people.

2 Thom

September 12, 2008 at 3:31 am

Defend the Dharmapala’s Monastery

Dagom GedenTensung Ling

Excerpts Herald Telephone Interviews

Thubten Norbu

Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center

“The Dalai Lama has actually repudiated his own spiritual guide, which is, again, very un-Buddhist. The Dalai Lama himself offered prayers to Dorje Shugden for 40 years.

Yet now he repudiates him. And he won’t say why.”This is a worldly deity”.

The Dalai Lama’s elder brother, retired Indiana University professor Thubten J. Norbu, talked about the controversy at his home outside Bloomington. And his mind is somewhat clear about the Shugden dispute.

“This is a free country. If these people want to worship a ghost, they can worship a ghost.

But I believe this is a worldly deity and this is not Buddhism, you know”.

Norbu said he did not know why his brother, the Dalai Lama, turned against Shugden.

“He must have his reasons.

My brother is one to thoroughly study everything.

He knows what he is doing.”

He practiced Shugden himself, until 1995. When he also had to give up his practice to please his brothers’s wishes.

Thom Canada, who donated the 100-acre site in 1979 on the south of town that includes the cultural center and Norbu home, is now a supporter of the Shugden postion of religious freedom, and it’s beleagured practitioners.

He has donated land next to Cascades Park for a monastery accommodating Shugden worshippers and sees himself as a “rescue” resource for persecuted Shugden followers that endure suppression and violation of their Civil Rights from the Dalia Lama.

“I’ve gotten a death threat myself,” Canada said last week. “So when they say there is no persecution going on, don’t believe it. There are vigilantes out there who at least believe they are doing the Dalai Lama’s will. They told me ‘We’re going to kill you and we’re going to kill all the other lamas, one by one.’”

Bruce E. Wilson, who leads a small, third congregation of Tibetan Buddhism followers in Bloomington, says, “There is a Tibetan proverb that says you can’t have politics without religion and religion without politics. I think in the U.S. our great strength is the separation of church and state, and it’s not hard to see why.”

If there is one thing all factions agree on regarding the Shugden controversy it is the quintessentially Buddhist notion that each individual must seek his or her own answers and that no one should accept any one point of view simply because someone else does.

“Buddha said, ‘Monks, just as skilled persons, accept gold after testing it, by heating, cutting and rubbing it. Likewise, you should accept my words after examining them. Do not do so out of respect (for me),” Wilson recited.

I’m sure there’s quite a few Shugden practitioners who are attempting to remain silent about the Dalai Lama. Because of the West’s perception of him, in other words, they are acting and speaking for the wrong reasons, motivated out of self-interests and agendas, as well as pride.

Times have changed.

I cannot believe there is any discussions as to how polite we should be to the enemy of the Lineage?

I find it difficult to understand how anyone here cannot have a real understanding of a man.

Who claims to have the same mind continuum as the 5th & 13th Dalia lama.

Would not understand the depth of pain our Vajra Brothers suffered.

The 13th Dalia lama had their skins peeled from their bodies, very slowly over several days, until they succumbed, only 70_80 years ago.

Their cime was to place a piece of paper in Dalia lama shoe.

Imagine with Dalia lama admitted mind continuum.

As being exactly the same as the 5th & 13th Dalia lama

How much spite and scorn he has to hold for all of the centuries.

Even now in the light of day. He attempts the same now as those he flayed alive.

Only today,he uses false allegations and character assassination to

dismember his victims.

Dalia lama acts with much vengeful spite towards our brothers & Sisters and defamed our Teachers.

He is sick and his days are Very numbered.

The beauty of our position,as I see it.

Is we have truth and honesty on our side.

It doesn’t matter what they think about us at all.

Because we do not have to scheme and lie and try to trick anyone.

As they do.

I remember old Taliban Bob equating us to the Taliban, “Just like the Taliban”.

They had a full color photo of Dorje Shugden inside of Newsweek, and the story made Dorje Shugden look as alien to Mahayana Buddhism as a Catholic Cross would look like in a Mosque.

However they published a full color photo that made world circulation for everyone to get a glance of the Protector. Somehow they thought this made Shugden look different than theother 1,000 dieties of Mahayanna Buddhism. Twisted logic from Twisted Bob. Bob told me that he had taken over 800 LSD trips one night over a bottle of wine. That impressed me at the time.

I thought it rather a rash choice to make in defense of the Dalia lama to portray Shugden in

Newsweek.

I would have at that point in 1996_1999, thought if incredibly rude and ill-mannered to depict or reveal such intimate knowledge of Buddhism in a common tabloid as Bob choose to do.

But he choose to do as he does now. Make a fool out of himself

But that was then and not now. Now we know what it is and what to name it.Lies and Deceit!

They tried to tie murder wrap on Dragpa Gyaltesen, and it was thrown out of court.

But the stigma stuck in their repetoire of lying and deceitfulness

I figure we can unravel this package the same way it was wrapped up to begin with.

We need to continue to say the simple truth over and over and over again.

Call him whatever you want.

Because for too long people have been afraid to call him anything, other than your Holiness.

Well now, he no longer deserves or warrants any more respect than to call him Fred.

He is ordinary and does not practice the precepts.

No matter how much he sits and prays with Inter Faith Groups.

He is nothing more than a person like all the rest of us and is going through changes.

Once Dalia he realizes that he is an ordinary human.

He will be like the “Last Emperor of China”!

It’s just now we find that he is like a hungry ghost pursuing obsessions life time after life time vainly attempting to prove himself more adept, advanced and skilled than his superior, Dragpa Gyaltsen.

Whom he or his ministers stole his life force by shoving katas down his throat to cease his life functions and he became the Supreme Protector of The Dharma and provides each and every one of us the very best conditions of environment for us to mediate.

To achieve enlightenment and be happy all of the time. Sounds pretty scary to me.

What do you think?

Dalia’s ghost obsesses on one thing and one thing only.

Because his phantom has been unable to acccept his misdeeds.

That being when he decided to murder the Wisdom Buddha, Dragpa Gyaltsen.

I think of how the Hobbits rediscovered the ring and then one was killed and the other went on for hundreds of years in unimaginable isolation and suffering all deluded states imaginable self cherishing apparitions that blind him of his true state of guilt of murdering his friend to posses the ring . Thus enraptured with his delusions he flees from his mind’s judgement.

It causes me to reflect on this a little.

He wears the abhorrence of his crime similarly as in “The Portrait of Dorian Grey”, betrayed by his own mind’s evil nature.

Dalia lama carries this imprint of misdeed as a porter carries his load up a hillside.

He always stoops and not from humility.

But from the weight of carrying the Three Poisons over hundreds of years.

Dalia is making strategic errors now .It read clearly how desperate he is to see that his facade is crumbling before his eyes, with all his lies, he broadcasts them all over the world.

He does not consider how lies fly faster, than when he was a kid growing up in Lhasa.

His lies are moving faster than the speed of light in a cyclotron.

The lies are moving him out of his castle and onto the playing field.

The lies pile up higher than all the Bones of Mount Meru. For everyone to see the truth behind his lies.

All the conjured rituals of fear mongering he has created will come back to him in full stark clarity of his deepest fears being realized are exposed for the whole world to know.

Total disclosure of his misdeeds will eventually make him grateful to the Protector and lamas for healing this festering sore. He will be grateful eventually. I promise!

Now he looks quite sick.

Look into his face and eyes, and you can see his sickness.

I remember Dagom Rinpoche and Norbu meeting at the TCC .

I was giving Dagom Rinpoche a tour of my town and we drove up to the Tibetan Cultural Center on a whim and I was unprepared for what happened next was beyond belief.

We drove up to Chorten and there was old Tagster standing guard and Rinpoche was smiling

at Norbu and giggling a little through the car window. They obviously knew one another.

Norbu literally turned red and his face took on a demon of some sort. He snarled at me and told me leave.

I got out of the van and stood up in his face and asked. Why he is so rude to a new friend of mine and a lama?

I stared into eyes I had never noticed in the last 33 years.

I saw hate incarnate in my face.

I almost crawled on top of him in that minute.

Rinpoche called me back in and said, forget him.

I drove away never to speak to him again.

Mr. Norbu predicted, “I will be reborn as a Burro in Tijuana Mexico. ”

I used to argue and say, that this would never be.

Now, I understand why he would say this again and again.

He’d been selling OUT his countrymen and convinced them to sacrifice their lives in a nasty little guerrilla war for the KGB and the CIA for years.

He once was human and once he was a monk, But

He’d been doing this long before I ever met him!

However a promise is a promise.

The situation in India is where it is today.

Because even after the Boss cooled down for a few years, everyone thought our work is done.

In fact, I was sent a letter from the Monastery in India that said,”Our Work Is Done”.

So no one did anything, and thought, “we’ll just quietly practice our Dharma and maybe they’ll leave us alone.”

Like before!

That’s what I was told me happened after the flaying of the monks alive back in the 1930’s.

We’re Buddhist, we can handle a little roughing up every now and then.

Besides we have our vows to protect.

Now, we’ve done nothing for years, and everyone gets concerned and jumps up and down and runs around in panic and surprise that he was at it again.

I remember all the kind words.

It got absolutely no where, whatsoever.

“If you ain’t got nothing, you ain’t got nothing to lose”

So stack up the attachments and people hang on to what holds them back.

I remember the most single moving act of a monk in 1964 Viet Nam lighting himself up in a lotus position with a jerry can of gasoline to protest the US presence, bringing more heartbreak to Viet Nam.

He never wavered as the flames consumed his body.

He remained in perfect equipoise as he taught me enough at 16 not to join the army at 18.

Was this too violent or abusive to others less learned , young or naive, than he ?

Did he break a vow with his act?

He stunned the world or my world with a totally alien and illegal act.

Was it suicide or sacrifice or a teaching?

I’m sure his motivation was Bodichitta inspired.

What I think is that any words that can bring this useless suffering to an end is far better than being forced to light oneself up to prove a point or gain attention.

What gets headlines and brings attention to the plight of the monks and the gross violations being perpetrated upon all of us who believe in total Equality for all sentient beings.

I think the lamas and monks have set the tone from how it feels from their side of the planet.

Not ours, over here in the relative comfort of the West.

Kunden ling and others are taking the heat in New Delhi with constant pressures from the goon squads of the Dalia lama.

Remember how that felt back then? I do!

However the stakes have changed and it is apparent by the recent news that DL and Thurman have completely come unhinged. He’s put Bob in the hot seat to lie thoroughly right before the court hearing in New Delhi.

Bob always says outrageous stuff to get himself worked up. It helps him to lie more convincingly to himself.

All we had to do last time was build a Shugden Monastery in Bloomingtonto get his attention.

He came running to destroy the Shugden Sangha with the full force of the Kalachakra.

Just like a Hungry Ghost with an obsession!

We’ve definitely got Fred’s attention and he’s ticked off.

That’s good!

Now if we can only keep him going until he gets flustered.

He’s prone to go off the deep end about this issue.

Good now they’ll look like lunatics.

It’s called turning the tables.

All we need do is let them fall into their own bed of lies.

Moment Of Truth!

Dalia lama looked through the National News tonight and said, “I will not stop Tibetans from expressing their religious freedom. I am freedom man.”

I almost lost my dinner with this absurd and untruthful statement.

A man in robes,lying is not a monk, nor a lama.

It is enough for any of us to know, that real danger is here.

The bigger they are, the harder or farther they fall.

So, I am going to be listening for a big thump.

I feel happy that the Protector is bringing on the Sun Shine, and it’s never darker than before the dawn.

We’ve been “Watchers For The Dawn’, for a long time.

I think I see a beam of light shine forth in the dawn of morning first light.

I think that the Masters await until the stream clears and runs clean.

Giving us just enough time to prepare.

This man has one major agenda, and that is to Destroy The Teachings That Dorje Shugden Protects and The Lama Chopa Guru Lineages with Single Pointedness of mind.

This is what Dalia lama is doing.

One Dream, One World, One Master, which he aspires to be.

He is not mincing words or hesitating for even one second to accomplish his obsession to destroy all traces of Dorje Shugden from this world.

We must defend ourselves.

It is not surprising that the Dalia lama’s clique of rich actors choose to attempt to ruin one of the few events that the world celebrates in concord together.

The individual spirit’s power to unite us by their victories.

We share with enthusiasm and bask in the light of their achievements.

The Olympics began in the cradle of western democracy principles and ideals. Tibetan never experienced any thing remotely resembling democracy under the 14 Dalia lamas over the last 400 years.

The Dalia lineage devised a Medieval slave_serf class structure that rode on the backs of the Tibetan people for far too long. He called in the Mongolian calvary to force all the different school under his control by force and became the Supreme Dictator of Tibet, similar to the modern communist state of North Korea

It was Radio Free Tibet,that announced the location of the recently reincarnation of the Panchen lama in 1991.

The Chinese authorities picked him up in a matter of hours.

The Panchen lama is of equal authority as the DL.

It was the PRC that liberated the people of Tibet.

This Dalia lama is no different now after 49 years, than his predecessors.

Only a month before he incited the rioting in Tibet.

The Dalia lama threw out a 350 year old respected order of the The Tibetan Mahayana Gulug lineage of Dorje Shugden into the streets of India. Thousands of the clergy are now confronted by Tibetan Vigilante goons that stated they will harass them out of the Tibetan Colonies in India.

Why?

He wears two mantles of authority that tread daily on our Founding Father’s Principles of Equality and Freedom of Speech and Religion.

He does not adhere to our Bill Of Rights.

Nor would he know what to do with our rights inside his government in exile.

The western news reporting is as blind to the history of the Dalia lama as are the Free Tibet people are. Free to go back to a free Tibet that never existed except as a despot’s medieval time warp.

Democracy is not the Free Tibet the Dalia lama strives to emulate.

He is free to glory in his own emulation of himself.

Not the values of the American Founding Fathers Belief In Equality. Which he, Bob Thurman and his side kick, Richard Gere have betrayed.

We need to address whomever our direct Masters or Teachers and seek their immediate input and advice on dealing with this looming crisis in the Colonies.

If we in the west contemplate inflation and shortages and depressions. We can only imagine the stress that is arising on the Indian Sub Continent with food and fuel shortages with unfavorable crop yields anticipated, due to drought.

We might consider that the additional stress the Dalia lama has placed upon the local economy by his erratic and tenacious behavior towards his own people.

It is clear that many people are emotionally charged and flailing and thrashing blindly against anyone the Dalia lama scorns. Which includes the Chinese and Dorje Shugden Devotees.

Acting in unison will help to bring about the desired results for this witch hunt implemented by the mind of a backward medieval dictatorial Potentate.

Or shall we do as before and simple practice our Dharma in quiet, and maybe nobody will notice us and leave us alone.

It hasn’t worked before and there is no reason to think it will resolve itself so easily this time.

Get off your pillows, stand up and ask yourself and others.What can I do?

Now in this moment and the next.

Your Protector needs you to act as he directs each and every one of us in our audiences with him.You might be in for the ride of your life.

Protetor Power is an overwhelmingly out of the body experience in real time.

All we need to do is say Yes! I will, and I can do whatever it is you need for me to do, right now.

Enlightenment is like that. The Now is all there is, so let’s start acting like our Brothers and Sisters for those that need our help now.

Who else will , if we do not.

Now the brothers India share the tale of darkness and despair of Vigilantes,who have sworn to bring us to an end.

So unite us, Love is all you need.

I am glad my words have been of some comfort and if it is any more help please know that you are not alone. With the way things are going I am sure you will not be the last.

Fortunately, I am very familiar with Thom Canada as a spiritual warrior who has inspired people like me, to shatter the silence of fear and clamorously defend our precious lineage. He has helped unveil the man behind the curtain so we can see for ourselves the nature of deceit and destruction handed out by the DL. He has made every sacrifice in the effort to make sure that freedom is near. I will let others fill you in on the history if they want, I do not think that is my business. What matters to me is his actions carried out on behalf of our great Protector, Gyelchen Dorje Shugden.

ar with the workings of the DL and his administration. They do not operate ethically and morally.I have witnessed many great lamas, members of the Sangha and simple lay people go through the same types of persecution. In feudal Tibet the punishment of being excommunicated and ostracized were reserved for those who were the greatest threats. This mentality is carried on to this day.The only difference is that Tibet does not have a land to banish us from so the tactics of splitting and isolation from the community are now used. The DL and his administration still live in the dark ages yet present themselves as following Buddhist principles to the world and speak of peace. Thinking people who come in contact with this system recognize it and see fault in it. We do a service to our fellow human beings when we bring this to light.

, I am glad to see that u have had contact with several great masters of our lineage. In times like this I have found solace in the teachings and words of advice from our great lineage masters for they continue to guide me out of this difficult and trying time of afflictions and the impermanent reality of existence.

Your contributions to the Buddha Dharma thus far will continue to help people long after we’re gone.In some ways the hardships you have endured may not have been in vain.It could have helped clear or alleviate the obstacles and negative karma for the pure gelug tradition to flourish in the west.I applaud you for your willingness to keep an open mind and generous heart to possibly continue helping our brethren in the near future despite your bitter experiences with Tibetans. Pls know that there are still many people who see your good nature, your pure motivation, your unwavering faith and passion for Dorje Shugden and unquestionable willingness to help. This speaks to the kind of person you are. Many tend to misunderstand your passion for anger or scorn.

Thom Canada is a spiritual warrior who has inspired people like me to shatter the silence of fear and clamorously defend our precious lineage. He has helped unveil the man behind the curtain so we can see for ourselves the nature of deceit and destruction handed out by the DL. He has made every sacrifice in the effort to make sure that freedom is near. I will let others fill you in on the history if they want, I do not think that is my business. What matters to me is his actions carried out on behalf of our great Protector, Gyelchen Dorje Shugden.

Rainlute

gyalchen
13 September 2008 at 14:59

Hi Geronimo

Any chance your posts could be more intelligible please?

I agree in general with your sentiments but often don't understand the full meaning.

Geronimo
13 September 2008 at 22:47

Is there any evidence that the Tibetan Government in Exile tells lies? Have a look for yourself. Below is a quote from Tashi Wangdi (the Dalai Lama’s representitive) speaking about the ban on Dorje Shugden. His statements are recorded on video.

Tashi Wangdi (speaking to the press): “I think there is a lot of misunderstanding. I was trying to explain that there is no ban.“

Quotes from the Dalai Lama and Samdhong Lobsang Tenzin regarding the ban on Dorje Shugden also recorded on video.

Dalai Lama: “I began this ban to continue the Fifth Dalai Lama’s legacy, I started this by myself and I have to continue, and carry it to the end. Understood?

Dalai Lama: “Some of you are not serious, but this is wrong. You, staff members, pretend not to hear anything, and you let time go by. You think it is better that we don’t take action against people.”

Dalai Lama: “In Sera Je monastery some students voluntarily took responsibly and are working on enforcing the ban. This is very good.”

Samdhong Lobsang Tenzin (prime minister of exile government): “On this topic, we have to take some clear action. Otherwise, if we don’t act because we think that this ban is going to create a lot of different problems in our society, and fearing segregation within our society—then I think this is wrong.”

Geronimo
13 September 2008 at 22:50

Confederation of Shambala Warriors!

Unite and Fight All Forms of Tyranny!

Convene The Gathering Force Of Dorje Shugden Warriors to Defend The Dharmapala’s Lineage!

All Voices in Concord as One!

The Enemy Does Not Delay for One Minute to Place Us In Our Graves!

Come Together Now, Before It Is Too Late!

Geronimo
13 September 2008 at 22:51

Is this clear enough?

Friendoftruth
17 September 2008 at 05:14

These last days I gave the political background of the religious persecution of the Dalai Lama against the Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Today I would like to extract from the Shugdensociety.info’s treasury the information about the escape of the Dalai Lama from Tibet and the influence of oracles in his decisions.

SPIRIT WORSHIPPING?

The demonstrations staged against the Dalai Lama this summer of 2008 had placards demanding: STOP LYING. Of course, for those who don’t know about the issue it’s terribly shocking to read such words. But the truth is that the Dalai Lama and his government, as soon as they realized that they were at risk because of this issue, started denying its existence. The extent and intensity of the untruthful statements is difficult to catalog but it entails the twisting of historical data, and alternate discourses –one for Tibetans, another for Western ears.

The Dalai Lama is saying that he prohibited the practice of Dorje Shugden to preserve Buddhism from becoming spirit worshipping. But the presence of Protectors of the Dharma is as old as Buddhism and all 4 sects of Tibetan Buddhism have a multitude of deities like Dorje Shugden.

And he himself, the Dalai Lama, consults oracles almost on a daily basis. This was the subject of “A scratch on the Teflon Lama”, an article by Newsweek that –although ignoring his attacks on the human rights of the practitioners– points nevertheless to the fact that “All Tibetan Buddhists worship protector gods and spirits like Dorje Shugden” and that “…he, too, believes in gods and spirits”.

And among those hundreds of celestial beings he chose only Dorje Shugden to defame? Obviously the “protection from spirit worshipping” is just an invention to justify the religious persecution.

Here it’s worth mentioning the influence of oracles in the thoughts and decisions of the Dalai Lama, quoting directly from the Shugden Charitable Society material.

THE STATE ORACLE OF TIBET

BECOMES JEALOUS OF DORJE SHUGDEN

The reasons for the Dalai Lama's ban on the Protector have become a source of much speculation. One easily recognized factor is the increasing influence of the state oracle over the Dalai Lama since the 70's.

The Tibetan state oracle system goes back to a pre-Buddhist time and consultation of the state oracle has proven constructive at times, but also destructive at other times. For this reason, the state oracle was not consulted during the Dalai Lama’s escape in 1959.

The Escape of the Dalai Lama

All details of the remarkable escape of the Dalai Lama and his entourage to India were arranged by a secret committee consisting of the two tutors of His Holiness, the abbot of Sera-Mey, a few reliable members of the cabinet, the Lord Chamberlain, and the leader of the Khampa Guerilla organization. But the key to the miraculous escape was the advice and guidance given by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche after secretly consulting Dorje Shugden through his most reliable oracle, the Panglung Kuten.

Multiple efforts to distort this historical truth by publishing new 'historical' books, films etc. where the intervention of the Protector is ignored cannot change the facts of history, still intact by the presence of living eye-witnesses of the time: some old monks, who accompanied His Holiness on that secret journey as his life guards are still living; their testimony was shown on Swiss TV in January 1998. They now sadly are victims of this discrimination. Mr. Lithang Atar, an active member of the Khampa-guerilla, left his testament for the world on a video-recording, before he passed away in 2006.

The great help of Dorje Shugden not only for the escape but also in earlier circumstances had pleased the Dalai Lama so deeply, that he composed a beautiful praise to the deity. Both in Tibet and in exile he showed him his great favour, so that even in his private ritual monastery, Namgyal Dratsang, the puja of this Protector was regularly offered along with pujas for a host of other protector deities of ancient Tibet and past and present Dalai Lamas.

This caused the state oracle to become deeply jealous and it began to exert a deceptive influence on His Holiness and some other persons in order to change the positive picture of Dorje Shugden.

VARIATIONS ON SLANDER

Once started, the slander varied and worsened year by year.

1-First the state oracle started off saying, "Dorje Shugden is a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)".

2-Then he said "the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group".

3-Then it was "Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama."

4-At another occasion: "Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen" (as it is well-known).

5-At other times: "Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government."

6-Then he said: "Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master."

7-And then: "Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Choe Kyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government.”

8-Finally the state oracle adopted as his assistants two new oracles, a man and a woman that came from Tibet, claiming to speak for a certain Tibetan god and goddess. They at once joined in his efforts of denouncing Dorje Shugden. Their slander of Dorje Shugden took its heaviest form in the beginning of the nineties, by blaming him as "a Chinese demon, responsible for everything that goes wrong in the Tibetan government, most harmful for the freedom of Tibet, and heaviest of all, harmful for the life of His Holiness”.

This last one was the reason for the ban on Dorje Shugden given by the Dalai Lama himself.

_____________________________

This information deserves to be not only remembered but also put in a certain context given by Ven. Helmut Gassner, who was years ago an interpreter for the Dalai Lama. His extraordinary, moving article (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/HelmutGassner01.pdf) called "Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden" portrays the Tibetan leader as a person most impressionable, very easily influenced by others.

Seeing the Dalai Lama going around the world influencing world leaders it sounds improbable that he could be so impressionable. This seems to be the case, though. What is dreadful is to observe that in a display of late adolescent rebellion one day he decided to abandon the influence of his holy teachers and chose to lend an ear to politically motivated characters and a bunch of oracles. So much suffering was thus originated!

_____________________________

Reading all the material about this matter one can perceive the different levels of motivations for the Dalai Lama's actions. Someone has mentioned that the great Lamas said that the Dalai Lama was ill. Although we don't know the exact meaning of this statement right now, it's something to keep stored in our minds as an important piece of information.

Of course, with old age coming upon him there is no much time left for great changes now in his mind. But who knows? Miracles can happen. For us, beyond our duty to expose the truth to the world, we have hidden in our heart the impossible dream, the wild hope that one day we are going to have back with us the Dalai Lama of our youth, that smiling projection of our mind's most sublime aspirations.

May be one day his terribly mistaken obsession against a holy Buddha Protector and against the practitioners of Je Tsongkapa's teachings will end.

May all happiness prevail for all beings!_____________________

shaza
17 September 2008 at 10:32

Hi Friendoftruth,

------------------------------------------------------- "This caused the state oracle to become deeply jealous and it began to exert a deceptive influence on His Holiness and some other persons in order to change the positive picture of Dorje Shugden."

According to your bible written by Trijang Rinpoche, Nechung the state oracle arranged Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's death so that he could reincarnate as Shugden. He allegedly masterminded the whole plot that led to the birth of Shugden. (p.93, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors)

And now you are saying "The Great Dharma King Nechung" is jealous of Shugden? How strange.

Best

Shaza

Tenzin
18 September 2008 at 02:32

Here is a very interesting news article about it today:

http://citybeat.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid:146102

Friendoftruth
21 September 2008 at 00:06

To whatever the name you are using:

Nobody that I know of ever said that the great Protector of Tibet, Nechung, was jealous of the Buddha Protector Dorje Shugden.

If people are saying such thing, they are just repeating something without understanding.

We talk about the o r a c l e.

A human being.

Jealous.

Poor guy, we should really pray for him.

Gotcha?

shaza
21 September 2008 at 08:31

Hi Friendoftruth

Yes. You got me there. Thx for clarifying. ^^

Best

Shaza

shaza
22 September 2008 at 12:06

In retrospect, maybe i'm right because your friend "Kadampa" certainly thinks the oracle IS Nechung when he spoke.

http://lazybuddhist.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/dirty-laundry/#...

post #368 Kadampa wrote:

"For example, the central point about the Dalai Lama abandoning Buddhist refuge is to do with the reliance he places on Nechung – the being universally acknowledged as a wordly spirit. Here are some of Nechung’s pronouncements about Dorje Shugden:

1st answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden ......"

Best

Shaza

gandul harry
22 September 2008 at 21:05

Hi Shaza,

Doesn't the fact that he writes '1st answer of the State Oracle' indicate that he understands that the Oracle and Nechung are separate entities? If he didn't discern the two he might as well simply write"1st answer of Nechung".

That he first writes 'Here are some of Nechung’s pronouncements about Dorje Shugden' and then refers to the words of the oracle, may indicate correct discernment.

Thanks for posting the link to LazyBuddhist's blog though, i think it is one of the few places where the author doesn't steer the conversation into any particular direction, thereby allowing open debate. Other blog owners, belonging to both sides of the issue, seem to only allow material that they agree with.

Friendoftruth
22 September 2008 at 22:35

Most people have very little knowledge about oracles, and often confuse the vehicle with the one who uses it.

On the other hand, the use of oracles is a very delicate issue, because only experienced Lamas know who comes through the oracle. And we do not have many of those nowadays.

To say "Nechung oracle" does not mean necessarily that 1)The oracle is truly in trance, 2)That at any given moment he or she is being the vehicle for Nechung in actuality or of somebody else.

This is the kind of things that only an experienced Lama knows.

So keep away from oracles unless your own personal Lama or someone that he approves is dealing with it.

shaza
24 September 2008 at 13:56

Hi gandul harry

-----------------------------"Doesn't the fact that he writes '1st answer of the State Oracle' indicate that he understands that the Oracle and Nechung are separate entities?"

Probably not. Because in order to attack the DL, many have resolved to this interpretation so that DL will be 'guilty' of relying on a worldly spirit etc

that's why Kadampa continues to say...

"This spirit (Nechung) was consulted by the Dalai Lama through the oracle for advice on this business of religious discrimination. Even though these 7 answers are contradictory in the extreme nevertheless the Dalai Lama paid attention to them all."

Best

Shaza

gandul harry
26 September 2008 at 00:22

Hi Shaza,

I'm not sure if i understand the point you are trying to make.

You say:

"Probably not. Because in order to attack the DL, many have resolved to this interpretation so that DL will be 'guilty' of relying on a worldly spirit etc "

The DL relies on Nechung, who is a spirit, for intelligence gathering. I.e. consults Nechung for advice. He consults this advisor through an oracle. He doesn't go for refuge to Nechung. And nobody is accusing him of this. So there is nothing wrong in saying that the DL relies on a spirit.

We all (DL followers and others) understand that this spirit is reached through an oracle. This is clear and obvious to everyone, i think. I don't see how Kadampa wouldn't be aware of this.

What Kadampa and others are pointing out is that it's a bit odd that HH is relying on a spirit for advice in the first place. I hope you don't mind me quoting WSS:

"Since Buddha never taught reliance upon anything other than the Three Jewels (Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha), relying on spirit oracles is definitely a non-Buddhist practice. The reason legitimizing this practice, that it is traditional, and has been practiced for hundreds of years is irrelevant."

This doesn't mean that relying on something other is bad, it simply means it isn't part of Buddhism.

"Buddhists have a commitment to seek refuge and guidance in the Three Jewels. Why would someone who purports to be an omniscient, transcendent being – the Buddha of Compassion – rely upon a spirit for advice?"

"In general, an omniscient being would have no need to rely upon advice from any of these ordinary beings. In absolute terms, an omniscient being would never rely upon worldly beings for decisions regarding how to enter, practice, and complete the path to enlightenment. This ban is clearly indicating what is to be practiced and what is to be abandoned and therefore constitutes advice on how to complete the spiritual path. The Dalai Lama has often explained that on the advice of Nechung, he should implement a ban on the propitiation of Dorje Shugden."

For full article: http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/en/reports/replies-to-t...

For me the last paragraph is the cruncher. Since the ban regards what is to be practiced and what is to be abandoned on the spiritual path as taught by Buddha, what on this earth is HH doing by asking the political advisor's pov on this issue? Again, i don't personally find relying on spirits or other things a problem in itself, but when it comes to Buddhist lineage, what is to be practiced, what is to be abandoned, etc... this sort of thing has no place.

Peace,

Harry

shaza
26 September 2008 at 10:16

Hi Harry

thx for your comment.

------------------------------------"The DL relies on Nechung, who is a spirit, for intelligence gathering. I.e. consults Nechung for advice. He consults this advisor through an oracle. He doesn't go for refuge to Nechung. And nobody is accusing him of this. So there is nothing wrong in saying that the DL relies on a spirit. "

correct..this is a fair assessment.

------------------------------------"We all (DL followers and others) understand that this spirit is reached through an oracle. This is clear and obvious to everyone, i think. I don't see how Kadampa wouldn't be aware of this."

It's actually Mr Friendoftruth who had a problem with this interpretation if you read back a few posts. He says;"

Nobody that I know of ever said that the great Protector of Tibet, Nechung, was jealous of the Buddha Protector Dorje Shugden.

If people are saying such thing, they are just repeating something without understanding.

We talk about the o r a c l e.

A human being.

Jealous. "

----------------------------------------------"What Kadampa and others are pointing out is that it's a bit odd that HH is relying on a spirit for advice in the first place. I hope you don't mind me quoting WSS:"

Yes it's largely non-Buddhist but it's not odd. For example, some other divination systems were incorporated into Tibet over including the Nagtsi from Chinese and Kartsi from Indians.

In order to understand where Dalai Lama's coming from, it will provide some background reading his speech. http://www.dalailama.com/page.155.htm

The Dalai Lama had doubts about Shugden as early as late 60's when His Senior Tutor Ling Rinpoche cautioned him against taking Nyingma teachings for fear that Shugden might harm him. And then the rest is history..

------------------------------------------------"Since Buddha never taught reliance upon anything other than the Three Jewels (Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha), relying on spirit oracles is definitely a non-Buddhist practice. The reason legitimizing this practice, that it is traditional, and has been practiced for hundreds of years is irrelevant.Buddhists have a commitment to seek refuge and guidance in the Three Jewels. Why would someone who purports to be an omniscient, transcendent being – the Buddha of Compassion – rely upon a spirit for advice?"

Oracles are used for political purposes (Nechung is part and partial of the Tibetan institution)

It is definitely worldly, but probably not unlike other forms of divination systems such as Mo where many other lamas are using today for people who want consultation over certain things. It's pretty much the same with Shugden oracle in the past where people sought answers with him.

And if you can take an hour or so to read the speech, you will realize the Dalai Lama had investigated alot before coming to that decision.

The Dalai Lama is no doubt a great bodhisattava, but maybe he didn't know each and everything as in our concept of a almight god. My reasoning is this, if the DL had been born omniscient, he probably would have spot the problem of Shugden immediately and wouldn't have made the mistake of making supplication to him until the early 70's. Afterall, it had already been a popular practice because of Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche. It was a nice thing that other teachers of Dalai Lama like his root guru Taktra Rinpoche and Senior Tutor Ling Rinpoche is against it

Best

Shaza

gandul harry
27 September 2008 at 04:12

Hi Shaza,

I understand that HH did do a lot of research. But i still remain with doubts about Nechung's involvement with the Shugden issue.

"It is definitely worldly, but probably not unlike other forms of divination systems such as Mo where many other lamas are using today for people who want consultation over certain things."

I looked up Mo and found nothing on Wikipedia, but i came across this page: http://www.divinemo.com/

It explains:

"When doing Mo for someone a Lama will first of all enter into a visualisation practice, in which he or she visualises a Buddhist meditational deity or awareness being such as Padmasambhava, Manjusri, or Green Tara for example. At the same time the Teacher invokes the energy of that awareness being by chanting its mantra. If the motivation of the Teacher is genuine compassion rather than an aspect of his or her self-interest, the Teacher may then act as a conduit for the Mo without obstructing its flow with ego."

This is undoubtedly a Buddhist practice. From Freedom in Exile. On Nechung: http://www.tibet.com/buddhism/nechung_hh.html

"my relationship with Nechung is that of commander to lieutenant: I never bow down to him. It is for Nechung to bow to the Dalai Lama."

Very clearly not a Buddhist practice.

I think what is important here is to discern between when it is appropriate to use Buddhist methods and when it is appropriate to use ordinary methods. It isn't wise to use ordinary methods to resolve spiritual issues. I.e. If you're seeing a doctor because you suspect you may have cancer, you don't ask your mechanic just to get a second opinion. So HH used some valid methods to check if DS was cancerous, no problem. But then he sought the advice of Nechung, political advisor, and used it to take action. This activity i find really strange.

Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine is one of the most precious treasures on this planet today. And according to one of HH's own lamas, one of his most important lamas, DS is the person responsible for protecting this doctrine, i.e. it needs DS to survive (by the way, HH once wrote a prayer to DS entitled A Propitiation of Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, Protector of Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings). Tsongkhapa's doctrine is intended to benefit all beings in the universe, particularly the beings of this world. Whereas Nechung is concerned primarily with the welfare of Tibet. For these reasons i find it absolutely mystifying that HH should rely on a worldly politically-motivated spirit in order to gather "intelligence" in respect to Shugden. I think i would be far less doubtful if he had done a simple mo, and asked for the advice of enlightened beings. Or other valid methods of receiving help and advice from Buddhas there are plenty (of methods i mean). This reliance on Nechung is a worldly one, and therefore inappropriate for this issue that concerns everyone, not just Tibetans.

If you want to read the prayer composed by the DL you can find it at www.dorjeshugden.com

Just now when i was getting the title from the site i noticed this gem: "remembering...HH Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang’s prophetic words, “Don't lose faith in His Holiness; don’t lose faith in Dorje Shugden”

I found this really inspiring. I think there may be a profound message in these words. What do you think?

Take care,

Harry

shaza
27 September 2008 at 07:18

Hi Harry

You are correct about Mo...in hindsight the analogy of astrology was probably more apt.

---------------------------------------------------"I think what is important here is to discern between when it is appropriate to use Buddhist methods and when it is appropriate to use ordinary methods. It isn't wise to use ordinary methods to resolve spiritual issues."

mundane methods could address "spiritual" matters since Shugden is a worldly spirit, consulting Nechung should also be a proper means. The fact that Shugden is a an oracle means he's on a par with Nechung, just a spirit, because there is no orcacle for wisdom beings. So to use your analogy, it would be like asking a mechanic's view on another guy of the same profession.

So I see no problem for the Dalai Lama to investigate from all the angles.

-------------------------------------------------------"Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine is one of the most precious treasures on this planet today. And according to one of HH's own lamas, one of his most important lamas, DS is the person responsible for protecting this doctrine, i.e. it needs DS to survive (by the way, HH once wrote a prayer to DS entitled A Propitiation of Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, Protector of Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa's Teachings). "

Je Tsongkhapa's teachings do not need Shugden. Many traditional teachings of Gelug passed down by Je Tshongkhapa remained intact in other lineages that has nothing to do with Pabongkha and Trijang.

-----------------------------------------------"Tsongkhapa's doctrine is intended to benefit all beings in the universe, particularly the beings of this world."

Yes that's why traditionally the three protectors of 6 Armed Mahakala, Vaisranava and Kalarupa which had been authorized by JeTshongkhapa were quite enough.

-----------------------------------------------"Whereas Nechung is concerned primarily with the welfare of Tibet. For these reasons i find it absolutely mystifying that HH should rely on a worldly politically-motivated spirit in order to gather "intelligence" in respect to Shugden."

I have a feeling that Trijang Rinpoche would not have agreed with you. Since according to Trijang, Nechung was "the Great the Dharma King" who reminded Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen of his promise in a previous life and arranged for his death so that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen could die and arise as the spirit named Shugden. So Nechung did care about the teachings of Gelug in Trijang's mind. (p.93, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors)

Therefore, you can tell the ideas that Nechung is either 1) in a lower status than Shugden or 2) jealous of Shugden are nothing but recent fabrications that do not sit well with history, even those of Trijang Rinpoche himself.

Best

Shaza

gandul harry
27 September 2008 at 22:40

Shaza,

"mundane methods could address "spiritual" matters since Shugden is a worldly spirit, consulting Nechung should also be a proper means. The fact that Shugden is a an oracle means he's on a par with Nechung, just a spirit, because there is no orcacle for wisdom beings. So to use your analogy, it would be like asking a mechanic's view on another guy of the same profession."

Wether Shugden is a spirit or not is still debatable, so this comment isn't valid.

It seems (in Tibet) culture and religion became quite mixed up over time. Add-ons like astrology and worldly protectors were constantly being brought into Buddhist practice. Therefore i don't see why an oracle couldn't have been used to contact a holy being. After all that is what the broad term for oracle is: a medium to contact a being in another realm. So the fact that an oracle was once used for Shugden doesn't in itself indicate he is a spirit. NKTers have a relationship with DS and we don't need an oracle to engage with him.

"Je Tsongkhapa's teachings do not need Shugden. Many traditional teachings of Gelug passed down by Je Tshongkhapa remained intact in other lineages that has nothing to do with Pabongkha and Trijang."

Sorry, i should have been more specific. I should of said Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine according to our tradition. If you read my paragraph again with this in mind it is still valid.

Does JT's tradition need DS? Well perhaps in some lineages it doesn't, i do not know this. But according to ours it does. For example we have a blessed instruction called the Ganden Oral Lineage, that was passed down orally from JT. This Lineage particularly is especially protected by DS.

In NKT, we also make regular prayers to 6 Armed Mahakala, Vaisranava and Kalarupa. So as you can see we are not acting differently than what JT wished. It just so happens to be that (for us) DS is more relevant in these times to protect our lineage. If this were not the case, 6 Armed Mahakala, Vaisranava and Kalarupa would not really be doing their job correctly by allowing this to happen. And all the other deities we make regular and sincere prayers to, starting with Buddha Shakyamuni, through to Arya Tara (White and Green), to JT himself.

What if other practitioners in India and Tibet are holding oral lineages protected by DS that HH is not aware of?

"Since according to Trijang, Nechung was "the Great the Dharma King" who reminded Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen of his promise in a previous life and arranged for his death so that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen could die and arise as the spirit named Shugden. So Nechung did care about the teachings of Gelug in Trijang's mind."

Interesting, i was not aware that HHTR had said this about Nechung. This onion certainly has many layers :)

But the DL certainly doesn't seem to regard Nechung as a Great Dharma King. No humble lama expects a "Great Dharma King" to bow down to him. So either HH is full of himself, or Nechung isn't really concerned with spiritual matters such as the welfare of the Gelug tradition.

"Therefore, you can tell the ideas that Nechung is either 1) in a lower status than Shugden or 2) jealous of Shugden are nothing but recent fabrications that do not sit well with history, even those of Trijang Rinpoche himself."

1) I'm not sure if you're referring to the arguments that talk about DS being a worldly protector that is going to be Nechung's successor. I don't buy these since i don't believe he is a worldly deity. But if Shugden is an enlightened protector then it is naturally correct to assume that he has a higher spiritual status than Nechung. 2) i don't know much about this argument.

Harry

shaza
28 September 2008 at 06:20

Hi Harry

--------------------------------------------------------------"Wether Shugden is a spirit or not is still debatable, so this comment isn't valid."

Shugden is a minor spirit in the history of Tibetan Buddhism until Pabongkha said otherwise, so the onus of proof is naturally heavier on those who claim that he is not.

"Indeed, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama did take issue with some aspects of this deity. He placed restrictions on Shukden's oracle, who was allowed to appear only in certain locations and never at the large monasteries. He allowed Gelukpas to propitiate this deity as long as he was worshipped in his correct place in the hierarchy of deities—that is, as a minor worldly god. Finally, the Dalai Lama also strongly urged Pabongkha to cease his propitiation of Shukden.

"(p.48, Lindsay McCune's thesis)

---------------------------------------------------------------" So the fact that an oracle was once used for Shugden doesn't in itself indicate he is a spirit. NKTers have a relationship with DS and we don't need an oracle to engage with him."

Shugden oracles are still used by Shugdenpas today and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso endorsed it when his uncle Kuten Lama did many trances to give advice for NKT centres according to Khedrup.

________________________________________"Does JT's tradition need DS? Well perhaps in some lineages it doesn't, i do not know this. But according to ours it does. For example we have a blessed instruction called the Ganden Oral Lineage, that was passed down orally from JT. This Lineage particularly is especially protected by DS. "

The later propagation of the "Ganden Oral Lineage" is shrouded in mystery. For fairness sake, one can consult Prof. Janis Willis' book which gives a short overview of the various versions. (p.161 n.114, Enlightened Beings: Life Stories from the Ganden Oral Tradition)

-----------------------------------------------------------------"If this were not the case, 6 Armed Mahakala, Vaisranava and Kalarupa would not really be doing their job correctly by allowing this to happen. And all the other deities we make regular and sincere prayers to, starting with Buddha Shakyamuni, through to Arya Tara (White and Green), to JT himself. "

Or are you not allowing yourself to heed their advices? It's as if one is blaming the Buddha for not enlightening him when he's still happily bound to his own delusion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------"What if other practitioners in India and Tibet are holding oral lineages protected by DS that HH is not aware of? "

i don't know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------"Interesting, i was not aware that HHTR had said this about Nechung. This onion certainly has many layers :) "

Not exactly. Trijang says this.

------------------------------------------------------------"But the DL certainly doesn't seem to regard Nechung as a Great Dharma King. No humble lama expects a "Great Dharma King" to bow down to him. So either HH is full of himself, or Nechung isn't really concerned with spiritual matters such as the welfare of the Gelug tradition."

You left out the third option, that Nechung and Shugden are simply powerful spirits and not proper refuge objects. The superlatives of Trijang Rinpoche do not change the facts.

"Yet, inferior though they in some ways may have been, the mundane deities were and still are believed to be more efficacious in dayto-

day protection than those gods and goddesses of the supramundane variety. Because these beings have not transcended the world, they are able to temporarily possess the bodies of humans. Thus they are able to become visible to beings inhabiting the mundane

realm, offering advice and protection. The ability to manifest in the form of an oracle is a unique quality of the worldly deities. There are many such oracles in Tibetan Buddhism, including Nechung and the Shukden oracle." (p.36, Lindsay McCune)

Best

Shaza

gandul harry
30 September 2008 at 03:25

Hi Shaza,

Your arguments in relation to the nature of Shugden are definitely quite convincing. I'm tempted to think they are in fact, sound. But i don't know a huge amount about HHTR's works, or Pabongkhapa's, to be able to judge. I don't know that much either about Tibetan history and culture.

But you may be glad to hear that i think you've opened my mind a little bit more about the possibility of Shugden not being an enlightened protector. I say this with the intention of keeping an open mind to truth, but without yet giving up refuge in the protector i have relied upon for nearly 6 years.

To be honest, it is going to be a hard task to convince me, since i am very happy with my tradition in general. I fail to see the negative consequences of worshiping DS that HH and co are warning me about, therefore i fail to understand the point in digging up the past to prove that DS is a spirit.

Recently a man came round to my house. He had golden teeth and slicked hair. I try not to be prejudiced but he simply looked dodgy, so just from appearance i was on guard. Anyway, he asked me what bank i was with. When i told him he said that in fact my bank was a very unreliable one and that i would be wise to safeguard my money with his company... No thank you, sir, said i. And that was that. He said he had much proof if i needed it.

I have been with the same bank for nine years, and they have proven to be quite reliable.

This is how i feel about DS. Until now he has seemed beneficial to me. The many rumours about what happen to DS practitioners have never happened to me, nor to any of my friends. I once gave up all of my Buddhist practices for one year, and i was never striken down by lightning. Etc. I will add more about this further down.

I tend to agree with the idea that at some point in the last quarter of the 20th century, due to pressure arising from political issues, HH wanted to use a distraction in order to turn the spotlight away from himself and the TGIE. And who better than DS for this task, since there had already been so much debate and controversy surrounding this deity. In this way people could point their fingers at DS and say that he is the cause of whatever problems arose in Tibet. This is a rough idea, and i believe the reality may have been quite different. But politics seem to me (for now anyway) to be the only logical explanation for his actions.

My main point of reference when it comes to the practice of Shugden is the NKT. And i honestly can't see how the practice is harmful. The attitude and behavior of KG or your average NKTer seems far from cultish or sectarian. It is said that S practice makes you wealthy. How come then NKTers aren't rich? At a guess i would say that the majority of people in this tradition are middle-working class. I've made many friends over the years, and they're all normal, down-to-earth individuals. As far as my experience of NKT goes, Robert Thurman might as well have said "these people keep flying pigs in their homes" and this wouldn't have sounded more far-fetched than his claim "they are the Buddhist Taliban". Then there is the recent statement made by HH that Shugdenites consider DS to be more important than Buddha Shakyamuni. I try to be modest in my views generally, but in this case i'm not ashamed to say that this is highly non-sensical. Once more i speak for NKT, although i have strong doubts that other DS practitioners place the deity above Buddha.

Sorry, went a bit off track.

So to reply to your words about Pabongkhapa. And Mccune's thesis.

I personally think that this subject is tricky because there seems to be so many different points of view in the different texts that are available. That there is a majority of view that says S is a spirit, does not in itself indicate this is correct. Because history is so relative, because it arises from points of view, i think it would be more beneficial to analize the nature of Shugden in the present. Does he cause harm now? Does he bring benefit now?

To my awareness, HH didn't check with the local monasteries and lamas to see wether there reliance was having a negative effect on their lives. Also it is claimed that according to history Shugden practice propagates sectarianism. Did he check if this was the case in his monasteries? It certainly isn't the case with NKT. Or are we talking about sectarianism when we mean simply adhering only to the teachings of one tradition? Since in all forms of Buddhism (or nearly all, maybe there are some i'm not aware of) it is advised to stick with your tradition, there is nothing wrong with this. Of course, when sectarianism is taken to an extreme we have a problem, as we can assume from some of the strong words from Pabongkhapa and Trijang. But since not all DS practitioners have this sectarian attitude, i think it is correct to say that DS necessarily causes sectarianism. NKT do not mix with the four schools and maybe the DL doesn't like this, but our choice doesn't make us sectarian (in the general sense of the word). We are quite respectful of other traditions, and we don't actively discourage people from mixing. There has been some confusion over this, and there have been some misunderstandings in the NKT. But this is being addressed. KG says it is incorrect to say that we are the only pure tradition left, as some people were saying, for example. Personally i can't stand sectarian attitudes and whenever i hear someone that has these ideas i openly discourage them. DS doesn't seem to punish me for this.

Honestly, at the end of the day i do not know if he is or he isn't a spirit. Although i have many good reasons to believe he is not. I think that for certain traditions, like NKT, he is of benefit, spirit or not. And for this reason i have to disagree with the Dalai Lama's ban. Apart from the fact that is completely unethical. I'm prepared to believe that HH may even be right about DS, and that his intention is to help, not hinder. But unfortunately evidence seems to point to the contrary.

"Or are you not allowing yourself to heed their advices? It's as if one is blaming the Buddha for not enlightening him when he's still happily bound to his own delusion."

NKTers pray sincerely and practice to the best of their ability. That is how they seem to me anyway. So my conclusion is that naturally someone who prays with strong faith is going to want to listen. I am certainly not blaming the Buddha's, if something is wrong it is naturally because we are not practicing correctly. My point is that we pray sincerely to many other valid deities, not only the three protectors mentioned, that have generally been regarded as enlightened for millenia. These deities have always answered prayers and assisted practitioners, so it is ok to trust that they are doing their job. Of course we have to do our job too. This is something that is clear to us.

Peace

Harry

gandul harry
30 September 2008 at 21:15

Typo

When i wrote:

"But since not all DS practitioners have this sectarian attitude, i think it is correct to say that DS necessarily causes sectarianism."

I meant that it isn't correct to say that DS necessarily causes sectarianism.

Tenzin
01 October 2008 at 04:32

Shaza and Harry,

Buddha Shakyamuni taught that everything depends upon the mind and lacks inherent existence. Everything is mere appearance to mind, depending on karma, and does not exist from its own side – like objects in a dream. For a pure mind, pure worlds and beings appear. For an impure mind, impure worlds and beings appear. Buddhist scripture is full of stories of disciples who first saw their enlightened teachers as worldly beings, e.g. as fishermen or even as dogs, but went on to purify their minds and see their teachers as emanations of Buddha.

For those with impure minds and impure karma, Dorje Shugden appears as an impure worldly being, even as a harmful spirit or a Chinese demon. But for those with pure minds and pure karma, Dorje Shugden appears as an enlightened being and emanation of Buddha Manjushri.

Individuals can choose. Treat Dorje Shugden like a spirit, and you might get some strange results. Treat Dorje Shugden like Buddha Manjushri, as taught to us by our Gelug lineage Gurus, and you will receive countless blessings and infinite Dharma protection.

The choice belongs to the practitioner. Nobody has the right to take that choice away.

gandul harry
01 October 2008 at 13:23

Hi Tenzin,

Thanks for your post. I had an interesting conversation with a friend yesterday. He presented a point of view which i hadn't really thought of before.

Dorje Shugden is nothing more than a name, which we use to address Manjushri in a wrathful form so that he may protect the tradition of Je Tsongkhapa (the one we hold anyway).

Since we are convinced that we are praying to Manjushri, we are in fact relying upon the Wisdom Buddha, and not a spirit.

Even in the case that there is a spirit called Shukden, it is not him we pray to. Think about it, someone decides to give you a nickname or they forget your name and call you something else. Does this mean you won't answer a question that you know is directed at you? So i don't see why Manjushri, who is a Buddha, wouldn't be able to relate to us, even if we have got his name and body wrong (which is still very debatable anyway).

The point is we are praying to, not a spirit. Dorje Shugden is just a name.

gandul harry
01 October 2008 at 13:26

typo

"The point is we are praying to Manjushri, not a spirit."

Tenzin
01 October 2008 at 17:51

I agree with you Harry. It all depends on how we are viewing Dorje Shugden. He, like every being, is mere name.

Check out this amazing footage on the Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden shown yesterday to a potential audience of 40 million:

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqON2lxArek

News article:

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/peopleandpower/2008/...

One interesting point made by the lawyer is that the main reason the legal case against the Dalai Lama was delayed three months was because the DL said he was sick/exhausted. Perhaps the DL was throwing off his European teaching engagements to delay the court case rather than because he was exhausted.

shaza
02 October 2008 at 06:56

Hi Harry

---------------------------------------------"But politics seem to me (for now anyway) to be the only logical explanation for his actions.But politics seem to me (for now anyway) to be the only logical explanation for his actions."

If there is one at all, it will be to weed out the spirit worship of Shugden once and for all and save the reputation of Gelug. The 13th Dalai Lama failed to stop Pabongkha, the 14th Dalai Lama was too soft in the 70's (DL said he was not firm enough back then) and if he cannot do it now, there's no guranteed the next Dalai Lama can do it.

---------------------------------------------"The attitude and behavior of KG or your average NKTer seems far from cultish or sectarian."

You are probably right about many NKTers but I am not so sure about GKG not being sectarian.

As i mentioned in the "Dirty Laundry" thread, he had no problem hiding his contempt for non-Gelug teachings in the early 90's, before he started a crusade against the Dalai Lama.

"These days many people talk about Tantra, but there are few who teach the two stages. There are even teachers who never mention the two stages and yet claim to be teaching something even higher than Highest Yoga Tantra! I wonder what sort of Buddhahood these so-called Tantric Masters attain? It must be a very deluded kind of Buddhahood! Rather than following these 'modern Buddhas', we would do much better to emulate the great Yogis of the past, such as the eigthy-four Mahasiddhas and especially the highly renowned Nagarjuna.

There are predictions that as times become more impure people will become increasingly attracted to false Dharma and begin to show contempt for pure Dharma. False Dharma will flourish widely and it will become more and more difficult to meet pure Dharma. Since these predictions seem to be coming true, we are extremely fortunate to have met the pure and authentic teachings of Je Tsongkhapa." (p.54-55, Tantric Grounds and Path, 1994)

-----------------------------------------------------------"I personally think that this subject is tricky because there seems to be so many different points of view in the different texts that are available"

It's not difficult to judge which text is more reliable. And all sound researches and texts unanimously agree that Shugden has always been a spirit and the claim that he is a major protector and wisdom being is a recent fabrication.

-----------------------------------------------------------"Even in the case that there is a spirit called Shukden, it is not him we pray to. Think about it, someone decides to give you a nickname or they forget your name and call you something else. Does this mean you won't answer a question that you know is directed at you? So i don't see why Manjushri, who is a Buddha, wouldn't be able to relate to us, even if we have got his name and body wrong (which is still very debatable anyway). "

There is a difference between wishful thinking and Buddhism.

Believing Shugden is Manjushri does not make him Manjushri no matter what one believes. Calling him by mistake is one thing but the chances of reaching Manjushri while if you keep calling Shugden's number is slight. All you will get is Shugden.

We do not take refuge in the Three Jewels for no reason. Proper refuge objects have the functions to liberate us while worldly beings do not.

Hi Tenzin

---------------------------------------------------"But for those with pure minds and pure karma, Dorje Shugden appears as an enlightened being and emanation of Buddha Manjushri. "

a conceptual mind is still deluded, one overestimates one's realization by claiming one can turn a worldly being into an enlightened being with one's mind. This is fantasy, not tantra.

---------------------------------------------------"It all depends on how we are viewing Dorje Shugden. He, like every being, is mere name."

According to your logic, one probably has no problem taking refuge in Shiva or Lucifer or Mickey Mouse because they are mere names.

Best

Shaza

SeekingClarity
02 October 2008 at 18:33

Hi Shaza

You write

---"And all sound researches and texts unanimously agree that Shugden has always been a spirit and the claim that he is a major protector and wisdom being is a recent fabrication. "---

It does seem that the Trode Khangsar has been around from around the time of the Great Fifth (though Im not saying the Great Fifth founded it). If the art work there is original i.e. was painted at the time of construction, this would suggest that the Shugden reincarnation lineage has been around for some time. (Not that this makes it valid, of course.) It would be helpful if someone were able to clarify the age of the art work. Any thoughts?

SC

shaza
03 October 2008 at 09:33

Hi SC

I don't know much about this temple but it is actually the strongest evidence that the Shugden oracle has been around since the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama. I agree the next logical step is to look at the original artworks themselves if they were photographed at all.

Trinlay Kalsang's short essay is indeed better annotated than Ursula Bernis but i still have doubts about the "reincarnation" murals because it seems Kalsang himself hasn't seen these "[O]ther murals" either. (see p.9)

As he says in the footnote: "Source: interview 2/2008, with anonymous person who stayed at the neighboring Trijang Labrang in the 1940’s before the Chinese invasion." (n.25)

Sounds creepy right?

Best

Shaza

Lyara
03 October 2008 at 16:50

Newsflash -- Terrorist monks bomb Shugden residence

(BTW, I am copying this from www.WisdomBuddhaDorjeShugden.blogspot.com, which has posted a great deal of new information on this subject over the last week or two.)

Earlier this year, Tibetan terrorists bombed the residence of a Dorje Shugden practitioner. Check out the news article in Radio Free Asia

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/tibet/tibetans-1002200809535...

'Terrorist actions'

The security official said: "They carried out terrorist actions...If they don't appeal, they will be taken to Kongpo for imprisonment 10 days after sentencing. None had lodged an appeal by Sept. 30."

What makes this particularly horrible is that these terrorists were supposedly Buddhist monks, training in monasteries!

Moreover, the actions of these monks were clearly motivated by allegiance to the Dalai Lama, the supposed champion of peace and non-violence:

"No one was hurt in the blasts, three of which occurred at a Chinese military base camp, one at the Markham county office, three at an electric power transmission station, and one at the residence of a Tibetan who worships Shugden, a controversial deity espoused by Beijing but regarded with suspicion by those loyal to the Dalai Lama."

The followers of the Dalai Lama cannot blame this one on Chinese sympathizers trying to stir up trouble because three of the bombings were at Chinese military base camps.

And although Robert Thurman has falsely accused Shugden practitioners of being the Taliban of Tibetan Buddhism, there is no proof that any Shugden practitioner has ever been engaged in acts of terrorism. However, this is more clear proof that certain followers of the Dalai Lama -- and monks at that -- are no better than terrorists.

Thankfully, this time, no one was hurt; but, as Shugden practitioners have been pointing out, they are constantly subject to persecution and violence due to the Dalai Lama's repressive ban, and it is only a matter of time before one of them is killed.

The Dalai Lama and his government need to ask themselves some hard questions, including why monks loyal to them are engaged in such acts of pre-meditated violence and how an innocent Dorje Shugden practitioner could come to be the target of such violence.

gandul harry
04 October 2008 at 01:31

Hi Shaza,

I will analyze the quotes from KG:

"These days many people talk about Tantra, but there are few who teach the two stages. There are even teachers who never mention the two stages and yet claim to be teaching something even higher than Highest Yoga Tantra! I wonder what sort of Buddhahood these so-called Tantric Masters attain? It must be a very deluded kind of Buddhahood! Rather than following these 'modern Buddhas', we would do much better to emulate the great Yogis of the past, such as the eigthy-four Mahasiddhas and especially the highly renowned Nagarjuna."

I don't see what is wrong with this, it is a simple point of view. According to the great masters of old, there is nothing higher than HYT. From the little i understand, the Mahayoga tantra is equivalent to HYT. KG said that some people, who don't teach the two stages yet claim to teach something higher than HYT, are wrong. He didn't say those who don't teach the two stages are wrong. So this is open to interpretation. Besides does opining that another tradition has got something wrong mean you are sectarian?

"There are predictions that as times become more impure people will become increasingly attracted to false Dharma and begin to show contempt for pure Dharma. False Dharma will flourish widely and it will become more and more difficult to meet pure Dharma. Since these predictions seem to be coming true, we are extremely fortunate to have met the pure and authentic teachings of Je Tsongkhapa."

Well, what is wrong with this? Is it not true that we are in increasingly degenerate times? Type "Tantra" into google and perhaps you will see what i mean. Also there are plenty of New Age groups and i would imagine even some so called Buddhist Traditions like Diamond Way, that are mixing Dharma with worldly concerns. I fail to see any sectarianism, cultism, or any "contempt for non-Gelug teachings" in this statement.

Even if i am wrong, and the first statement is sectarian, it's hardly evidence that KG is generally a sectarian Lama. I have been listening to his teachings for six years, and all i have heard from him is encouragement to respect all traditions and to never criticize them.

"There is a difference between wishful thinking and Buddhism.

Believing Shugden is Manjushri does not make him Manjushri no matter what one believes. Calling him by mistake is one thing but the chances of reaching Manjushri while if you keep calling Shugden's number is slight. All you will get is Shugden. "

Believing a spirit called Shugden is Manjushri is one thing, and believing that Manjushri emanates in the form of an enlightened protector called Shugden is another. You misunderstand my point. We are not calling a spirit Manjushri. We are calling Manjushri in the form of the protector Shugden. Wether there is also a spirit called Shugden who looks similar to DS is not the point.

Once again, it would say little about Manjushri's power if he failed to answer our prayers just because we got his name wrong. Buddha's don't really look like humans, they simply take on similar forms so that we can relate to them. They don't really care how we paint them or call them, they are beyond these worldly concerns. Point is, if we address them they will come to us.

If someone scribbles a stick man and calls him "my stick friend", and then prays to this cartoon with strong faith that it is a representation of Buddha, Buddha will no doubt come.

There is a story that years after the Buddha's death a woman came across an old human tooth. She had reason to believe that this tooth had belonged to the Buddha, but the truth was that it wasn't no Buddha tooth. She put the tooth on her shrine and made extensive offerings and prayers to it, and as a result... er i can't remember exactly what good came to her, but i basically she received the Buddha's blessings through the tooth, even though it was never his.

This story illustrates Buddha's power to manifest wherever people have faith in him. It's not like he thought "well, that's not really my tooth, so why should i aid this good woman?". This story also explains how Manjushri can answer our prayers, when we (rightly, or wrongly) call him by the name Shugden.

You are incorrect when you say we are praying to a spirit. We are praying to Manjushri. The rest is mere names and forms. Perhaps there is a spirit called Shugden. And perhaps that is the same Shugden that your texts refer too. It is not the same Shugden we rely on.

Regards,

Harry

gandul harry
04 October 2008 at 01:36

I would like to take back what i said about Diamond Way. I don't really know much about this tradition to be able to judge.

My point remains clear. There are plenty of so-called Buddhist traditions who practice things that aren't in accordance with the Buddha's views. Perhaps it's better for the sake of respect not to name.

shaza
04 October 2008 at 17:00

Hi Harry

------------------------------------------------------"From the little i understand, the Mahayoga tantra is equivalent to HYT. "

Agree.

After Mahayoga, we have Anuyoga and Atiyoga, one higher than the other. The so called three inner tantras.

-------------------------------------------------------"KG said that some people, who don't teach the two stages yet claim to teach something higher than HYT, are wrong. He didn't say those who don't teach the two stages are wrong."

Correct.

Atiyoga of Nyingma and Gampopa's Mahamudra of Kagyu are practiced by many tantric masters today. They are incidentally without the two stages and considered by many "higher" than HYT. I don't necessary agree but i would not say they are false dharmas that led to deluded buddhahood either.

-------------------------------------------------------"So this is open to interpretation. Besides does opining that another tradition has got something wrong mean you are sectarian?

People debate everyday about them. But saying non-Gelug teachings lead to deluded Buddhahood is sectarian.

-----------------------------------------------------"I have been listening to his teachings for six years, and all i have heard from him is encouragement to respect all traditions and to never criticize them. "

It's a good thing if he changes his mind. I should rejoice.

---------------------------------------------------- "If someone scribbles a stick man and calls him "my stick friend", and then prays to this cartoon with strong faith that it is a representation of Buddha, Buddha will no doubt come. "

Are you saying if GKG asks you to worship Mickey Mouse tomorrow, you will have no problem at all?

--------------------------------------------------"There is a story that years after the Buddha's death a woman came across an old human tooth. "

Good point. The difference i see is the woman has faith in Buddha as a valid refuge object. Just as one develops faith in a consecrated statue because the statue is a reminder of the Buddha, not a refuge object itself.

--------------------------------------------------"This story illustrates Buddha's power to manifest wherever people have faith in him. It's not like he thought "well, that's not really my tooth, so why should i aid this good woman?". This story also explains how Manjushri can answer our prayers, when we (rightly, or wrongly) call him by the name Shugden.

Shiva is also a manifestation of Avalokitesvara.

----------------------------------------------------"You are incorrect when you say we are praying to a spirit. We are praying to Manjushri. The rest is mere names and forms. Perhaps there is a spirit called Shugden. And perhaps that is the same Shugden that your texts refer too. It is not the same Shugden we rely on.

For Shugdenpas, hours and hours are spent on the form and name and mantras of Shugden in practices. Maybe you can tell the difference btw Shugden the spirit or Shugden the Buddha, if any.

Best

Shaza

Lyara
05 October 2008 at 17:27

It doesn't matter how long we debate about the polemics of whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or a spirit. None of this alters the fact that the political ban on Dorje Shugden is very wrong.

Please check out this article by a non-Shugden, non-NKT Tibetan woman who is interested in the cause of Tibet — she seems to have hit the nail on the head.

http://mountainphoenixovertibet.blogspot.com/2008/10/evil-sp...

One extract: “The way Tibetans have been handling the Dholgyal/Shugden issue says quite a bit about the state of our democratic values. We Tibetans are okay with dissenters being forced into obedience. We see nothing wrong with this political style. We have no issues with the Dalai Lama exerting pressure on dissenters by using secular government organs and tolerating oaths and signature actions in his name. Some even believe it is their duty to expose Dholgyal/Shugden supporters and slander them.

Until recently I thought, the more we talk about this conflict, the worse it becomes. I have changed my mind. I know now that it is wrong to remain silent. All genuine Tibetan democrats must speak up in the political debate over Dholgyal/Shugden. When a few are forced to take on the view of many, we’re going down a dangerous path. It is our duty to speak up. Our young democracy will remain in bad shape if we let this happen without a reaction.”

Geronimo
06 October 2008 at 02:23

Over the course of a decade, the Dalai Lama has repeated that worshipping the evil spirit "Dholgyal" harms the Tibetan cause and is detrimental to his lifespan. As a consequence, many who have engaged in this practice seem to have stopped it. For which Tibetan wants to harm the cause and the Dalai Lama? Only a madman or a traitor.

But then over time, a small group of supporters of this evil spirit emerged. Funny enough, their notion was that this evil spirit was actually an enlightened being, a Buddha or something to that effect. For them, it was not "Dholgyal", which seems to be derogatory term, but "Dorje Shugden" or "Choekyong". Eeach side has produced tons of materials over the years to strengthen their argument in this spiritual battle. The internet is full of it.

As long as the conflict over Dholgyal/Shugden remained in the religious realm, we could argue it was about personal spiritual experience and beliefs, and as external observers, we prefer to keep out because we could not follow, and the practice or non-practice had absolutely no meaning to us. At least I ignored the topic for the longest time, thinking it's an archaic religious debate with no relevance to real life.

But then I realised that the political dimension of this conflict concerns all of us, because what had started as a theological dispute, had left the religious realm and had entered the Tibetan mainstream.

So while most of us were not qualified to make a statement with regard to the nature of Dholgyal/Shugden, as people living in a democratic society, we are all entitled to make a statement with regard to the political aspect of the controversy and how Tibetan society has been dealing with Dholgyal/Shugden supporters.

There are several instances where it would seem, Tibetan government agencies have been used to discourage the practice. It is known that the Prime Minister publicly discouraged the practice in several instances. In Switzerland, the assembly of elected Tibetan people's deputies (thunmi) passed a "Dholgyal resolution" which, in effect, calls for singling out pro Dholgyal/Shugden Tibetans living in Switzerland.

In some instances, Tibetans in Switzerland and India have been asked to sign or take an oath that they would abandon the practice. Reportedly, Dholgyal/Shugden supporters in India have been refused necessary documents by the Tibetan government-in-exile, which they would need to obtain formal recognition as refugees by the Government of India. In some Tibetan settlements in South India, shops apparently no longer sell to Dholgyal/Shugden supporters, and entire groups of dissenting monks have been asked to leave their monastery.

If only a fraction of these stories are true, and the evidence would suggest so, they document a type of political pressure that is not normal. In fact, these reports are highly disturbing for our young democracy. In a democratic setting, it would not be possible to single out a group of people, label them and pressure them into compliance with the majority view. It's actually a fascist thing to do and conjures up the darkest memories.

If we consider our society democratic, the question is: Why do some of us tolerate or even support this type of pressure on a minority?

We all know that in a democratic society, the rights of minorities do not depend on the goodwill of the majority. In a democratic society, the rights of minorities cannot be "overruled" by majority vote. The law is supreme and protects the rights of all citizens. We should know that a truly democratic Tibetan society would not force those with deviating views into obedience. A truly democratic Tibetan society would be strong enough to put up with dissenting views even though the majority may not approve of them.

Our problem boils down to the peculiarity of the Tibetan system. If the Dholgyal/Shugden dispute shows us something, then it is the incompatibility of democracy with our actual political behaviour, which, I believe, still reflects the traditional "religion-and-politics-entwined" mentality in both ruler and ruled.

Everyone knows that in the traditional system, the Dalai Lamas have held a double function: On the one hand, they have been top-ranking priests of the Gelug order, and on the other hand, they have functioned as the head of the Tibetan government. We also know that in a democracy, the secular and religious spheres are strictly separated and not ruled by one person for there is the danger of the abuse of power. All democracies in the world have a balance of power to prevent too much power in the hand of a single person.

In the current Dholgyal/Shugden dispute, it would seem the Dalai Lama has been using his political power as the head of the government to promote a religious goal, the clean-up of the Gelug order. This is very problematic, in fact, in a democracy, using political authority for a religious purpose constitutes an abuse of power.

The next question then is: Why is nobody raising any red flags?

Tibetan social behaviour in this dispute would confirm that in a system, where the leader is held in God-like esteem, it is difficult for the average citizen to hold diverging views. In such a system, there is little space for egalitarian discourse or democratic debate, because one participant is, by definition, infallible and beyond scrutiny.

Many Tibetans seem to save the intellectual effort because they believe the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, and the rest of us are not. Due to his divine background and omniscient capability, many seem to believe he knows by default what's best.

Many may also support his views out of gratitude. After all, the Dalai Lama does have an impressive track record of what he has done for his country and his people. We all love him for that. The whole world loves him. So many Tibetans are deeply grateful and give him unconditional loyalty in return.

For these reasons, many Tibetans are inclined to take an automatic stand in favour of the Dalai Lama even if they may not have a religious stake in the Dholgyal/Shugden issue per se.

But in a democracy, the leader or government is only one element of the social fabric made up of political parties, organisations, institutions etc. A true democracy is diverse and pluralistic, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. The spiritual experience of a Dalai Lama is no more true than the spiritual experience of the average Tibetan is false. If they end up with diverging views, it is wrong for the Dalai Lama to pressure others into accepting his view. Even if his spiritual insight is considered superior, the others have the democratic right to believe in their view.

The few, who have arrived at diverging views regarding Dholgyal/Shugden, and somehow manage to adhere to them, have been virtually shut out of society. They are not welcome at Tibetan gatherings and the Dalai Lama has regularly asked them to leave the venue when they attended his teachings.

People seem to have no problem with this style, because the majority seems to be stuck in the traditional "religion-and-politics-combined" mentality: How dare they be smarter than the Buddha? How dare they defy the leader without whom we would have been finished long ago? How dare they ignore the advice of someone who has nothing but genuine compassion at his heart? How dare they?

The reaction has been to ostracise and slander this minority as non-patriotic, pro-Chinese, murderers, greedy for money, and members of a cult rather than real Buddhists.

But when we take a closer look, we realise that it is a diverse group of people who practice Dholgyal/Shugden. They are not a monolithic block with the goal to damage the Dalai Lama's reputation, help China or corrupt Buddhism.

The most controversial Dhogyal/Shugden supporters seem to be the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) and the Western Shugden Society. Since these groups are mainly made up of Westerners, they are not under the sphere of influence of Tibetan society and as such have been the most vocal in protesting against the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile. Their protest for religious freedom is likely to continue since they cannot be directly pressured by Tibetan society.

The Tibetan side of Dholgyal/Shugden practitioners seems less organized and also avoids direct confrontation with the Dalai Lama. There is an organisation called "Dorje Shugden Devotee's Charitable & Religious Society" based in New Delhi, but how numerous they are and how far they are prepared to go to safeguard their religious freedom is not clear.

Some Dholgyal/Shugden supporters voiced their grief on Swiss TV several years ago, some are said to have gone to Indian courts and others approached Amnesty International for support. But my impression is, most Tibetan Dholgyal/Shugden supporters keep a low profile. In general those defiant Lamas, Geshes, and lay people are without any affiliation to an organization. They tend not to voice their dissent in public for fear of being exposed.

I personally know of several people who stick to Dholgyal/Shugden as part of their spiritual practice. I have no idea what that practice looks like and I'm not the least interested. All I can say is that they are neither pro-Chinese, nor greedy for money, nor do they approve of violence to resolve a dispute. They do not believe in Gelug supremacy to the point where they belittle other Buddhist schools. I have never heard a bad word from them about Kundun. They seem sad but not bitter. They do not understand why the Dalai Lama wants to exterminate this practice. But unlike the Western Dholgyal/Shugden supporters, they have kept their grief to themselves hoping that if they keep quite and do not retaliate, the storm will pass.

It would be foolish to follow that all other Dholgyal/Shugden supporters have some sort of affinity with China just because a few are considered Chinese spies. And if some have murdered, it is silly to believe, everyone worshipping Dholgyal/Shugden is violent. If some pray to Dholgyal/Shugden to become rich, it doesn't mean that everyone worshipping Dholgyal/Shugden only thinks about money. And if some people who worship Dholgyal/Shugden believe in Gelug supremacy, it doesn’t make everyone worshipping Dholgyal/Shugden a Gelug chauvinist.

We must be careful not succumb to the habit of labeling dissenters. We should make the effort to look behind the label to the content and differentiate, otherwise the witch hunt will continue.

If Tibetan society were truly democratic, cooperation would be based on free will, and people would be encouraged to think for themselves, making up their own minds. If Tibetan society were truly democratic, people who do not follow the opinion leader, would not be ostracised.

The way Tibetans have been handling the Dholgyal/Shugden issue says quite a bit about the state of our democratic values. We Tibetans are okay with dissenters being forced into obedience. We see nothing wrong with this political style. We have no issues with the Dalai Lama exerting pressure on dissenters by using secular government organs and tolerating oaths and signature actions in his name. Some even believe it is their duty to expose Dholgyal/Shugden supporters and slander them.

Until recently I thought, the more we talk about this conflict, the worse it becomes. I have changed my mind. I know now that it is wrong to remain silent. All genuine Tibetan democrats must speak up in the political debate over Dholgyal/Shugden. When a few are forced to take on the view of many, we’re going down a dangerous path. It is our duty to speak up. Our young democracy will remain in bad shape if we let this happen without a reaction.

Mountain Phoenix

posted by Mountain Phoenix at 10:27 AM on Oct 4, 2008

Atisha'scook said...

excellent post - thank you for your clarity. as a Shugden practitioner,i have a personal stake in the religious side of this dispute, and a strong opinion on it. nonetheless i agree with you completely that if we're to arrive at any kind of resolution, then the spiritual side must remain just that: spiritual. in Europe they recognized the great danger of mixing religious and political power and have therefore tried to keep church and state separate for centuries; the US was founded in large part on this very freedom of conscience (though worryingly in recent times we've seen a trend towards regression). if the Tibetan nation and society is to take its rightful place in the modern world, it must surely follow this example and keep politics and religion separate.

October 4, 2008 12:51 PM

Margaret said...

Thank you for that thoughtful article. The Shugden issue is a relgious freedom issue that has moved over to the political realm as a result of the mixing of religion and politics under one leader. As a result, the TGIE has not been protecting the rights of its minority citizens, as all democratic governments are expected to do. So far, it seems they have not handled the issue well; how they will continue to handle this issue is truly a test of the TGIE's democratic principles.

I would like to clarify one point in your article:

The Western Shugden Society is the umbrella under which Shugden practioners come together to protest for religious freedom. As a result, the WSS has a widely varied demographic: some participants are in the NKT, some are not in the NKT, and some are simply family and friends of practitioners who support religious freedom. Although some NKT members have become members of the WSS, the NKT as an organisation, is not involved in the protests at all.

In other internet posts I have come across, there are indications that people believe the NKT and WSS to be the same entity but in actual fact, this is not the case.

October 4, 2008 1:46 PM

Janet Brookes said...

Mountain Phoenix, thank you for your thoughtful and well written article. I can see from your profile that you are dedicated to the Tibetan cause and I really appreciate your explanation of how this issue of mixing religion and politics is now adversely affecting that cause. I am not Tibetan but I feel for all Tibetans and wish for a speedy resolution of this problem for all their sakes.

Another good article on the subject I saw today (written by an actual Shugden practitioner) that might interest you:

http://dorjeshugdenblog.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/reasoning-f...

Thank you and please keep up the good work.

October 4, 2008 2:21 PM

Anonymous said...

Really, the dispute has nothing to say about Buddhism, it does say a lot, though, about Tibetan politics.

You hit the nail on the head and I hope that the Tibetan people will find the courage to speak up and create a true democracy.

October 5, 2008 7:11 AM

wisdom-and-bliss said...

Thank you for this post. I think your perspective on this issue is very intelligent and sensible.

October 5, 2008 7:11 AM

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your article, thank you for your clarity of mind to separate democracy from religious beliefs, thank you for standing up for democracy and its principles as a protection tool for all basic human rights, such as religious freedom. May all Tibetan people have the good fortune to experience the benefits of your beautiful and wise view, find external protection and internal confidence, appreciate and abide in democratic principles, live joyfully in harmony, and enjoy religious freedom.

October 5, 2008 8:12 AM

Thom said...

Champion’s Challenge

Be Reasonable Robert Thurman

Debate This Schism !

With Freedom Loving People !

I’ve Thrown Down the Gauntlet

To you,

Robert Thurman !

I challenge you to defend your lies!

If you do not reply to me personally. Then you are all the things, I say of you. That you, Robert Thurman, are a Liar and Traitor to the Principles of Democracy and the dharma.

We are not all perfect beings! This defeintely includes both of you, Tenzin Gyatso Norbu {dalia lama}, and Robert Thurman.

Some of us realize, that Tenzin Gyatso Norbu is a deceitful self cherishing incarnate of a Feudal War Lord. Who slaughtered his own people to seize and maintain control of the different approaches to the Teachngs Of Lord Buddha.

Some of us realize that he is the antithesis of a man who tramps daily by his ignorance and attempts to undermine the underpinning of the Bill Of Rights and Civil Liberties of the People.

The Dharma Flourishes because, it has a home that respects and protects the rights of all to believe as they choose.

This schism only magnified his abbhorrence of individual thought to reason and find the way to the truth that Lord Buddha taught to us.

He prefers to lie and deceive and use the mouthpiece of Bob Thurman to validate his claims, that he actually speaks from the truth.

They have no weapons to use against the Western Shugden Society,{WSS},or any of us!

We who are Fighting to Protect the Rights of all People Everywhere to Believe as They Choose.

Why?

Because, Dalia Lama has lied and violated the very principles. I’ve already mentioned.

Justice they say is Blind. But not Blind to the Breaking of Our Laws.

Which keep us from the Darkness of Lawlessness.

Nothing that has been said, that can be disproved or proved within cetain disciplines.

However, if enough people see the truth and think about it long enough. Then the truth will prevail.

We did nothing to deserve this abuse, and he says nothing that justifies His Lies and Abuse to Those Suffering due to his activities to maintain his power base.

He is not a Buddha, and Lies with the Ease of a Mississippi River Boat Gambler.

Not all of us are scholars or well versed, but we have the common sense that Lord Buddha attributed to we mere mortals. The inherent ability to reason ourselves out of ignorance and find liberation one day.

The only loss of credibility is Dalia Lama and Thurman’s incessant lying and deception they spew from their mouths each and everyday.

Only by the tenacious and continuous fortitude of each and every voice resonating with protest that they speak the truth. We expect this even from the least of us.

Lord Buddha by all accounts, fought against the status of deceit and lying of other intent to have their self cherishing lifestyles. Maintained by the suppression of others by perverting the truths and creating all manners of maras to keep it that way.

This is a Democracy and not all voices may speak as you wish, but we speak with sincerity and a desire to eliminate ignorance and lies that hinder all from the seeking the way home safely.

I hope they challenge any of us publically with a rational and logical defense of their actions and try to defend this insanity on the Global forum for All to Witness.

If they had a leg to stand on, they would have already courageously pursued their defense.

They have not, nor do they intend to confront you or me or anyone else directly.

Instead they have Death Squads slinking down dark alley ways, and then have the audacity to point the finger at us.

He cannot hold his own, unless he is speaking to his ‘Chorus of Supporters’.

So, relax and let our free will Protect Us from these Monsters.

Even Hitler had his day. He was loved by the deluded and brainwashed, and you can see what eventually happened to them.

As Dr. Ursula Bernis, who was in Munich during the bombing by the Allies in WWll, said. “Yes, Thom! We are grateful even for this tragedy. Imagine where we Germans and the world would be today, had Hitler had his way?”

This is warfare, not a nuance of semantics and dialectics within the debate halls of a Nunnery or Monastery.

We, The People, ill-versed and flawed, as we may be. Will fight on and on, until we defeat this monster and his mimmicks, who only care for personal power over others.

Hey There! Tenzin Gyatos Norbu! It’s me, Thom Canada calling you and Bob out, to defend your lies.!

See………………………………………..not a word of reply!

Why? Because these cowards are thieves of the dharma. They know to fear me, and you and anyone else who Shines the Light of Truth.

We all attempt to say this truth with the Sincerity of Our Hearts, but not the lies of a cheating mind portrayed by Tenzin Gyatso Norbu and Robert Thurman.

Thomas Canada

Cedar City, Utah

United States Of America

October 5, 2008 4:41 PM

Over the course of a decade, the Dalai Lama has repeated that worshipping the evil spirit "Dholgyal" harms the Tibetan cause and is detrimental to his lifespan. As a consequence, many who have engaged in this practice seem to have stopped it. For which Tibetan wants to harm the cause and the Dalai Lama? Only a madman or a traitor.

But then over time, a small group of supporters of this evil spirit emerged. Funny enough, their notion was that this evil spirit was actually an enlightened being, a Buddha or something to that effect. For them, it was not "Dholgyal", which seems to be derogatory term, but "Dorje Shugden" or "Choekyong". Eeach side has produced tons of materials over the years to strengthen their argument in this spiritual battle. The internet is full of it.

As long as the conflict over Dholgyal/Shugden remained in the religious realm, we could argue it was about personal spiritual experience and beliefs, and as external observers, we prefer to keep out because we could not follow, and the practice or non-practice had absolutely no meaning to us. At least I ignored the topic for the longest time, thinking it's an archaic religious debate with no relevance to real life.

But then I realised that the political dimension of this conflict concerns all of us, because what had started as a theological dispute, had left the religious realm and had entered the Tibetan mainstream.

So while most of us were not qualified to make a statement with regard to the nature of Dholgyal/Shugden, as people living in a democratic society, we are all entitled to make a statement with regard to the political aspect of the controversy and how Tibetan society has been dealing with Dholgyal/Shugden supporters.

There are several instances where it would seem, Tibetan government agencies have been used to discourage the practice. It is known that the Prime Minister publicly discouraged the practice in several instances. In Switzerland, the assembly of elected Tibetan people's deputies (thunmi) passed a "Dholgyal resolution" which, in effect, calls for singling out pro Dholgyal/Shugden Tibetans living in Switzerland.

In some instances, Tibetans in Switzerland and India have been asked to sign or take an oath that they would abandon the practice. Reportedly, Dholgyal/Shugden supporters in India have been refused necessary documents by the Tibetan government-in-exile, which they would need to obtain formal recognition as refugees by the Government of India. In some Tibetan settlements in South India, shops apparently no longer sell to Dholgyal/Shugden supporters, and entire groups of dissenting monks have been asked to leave their monastery.

If only a fraction of these stories are true, and the evidence would suggest so, they document a type of political pressure that is not normal. In fact, these reports are highly disturbing for our young democracy. In a democratic setting, it would not be possible to single out a group of people, label them and pressure them into compliance with the majority view. It's actually a fascist thing to do and conjures up the darkest memories.

If we consider our society democratic, the question is: Why do some of us tolerate or even support this type of pressure on a minority?

We all know that in a democratic society, the rights of minorities do not depend on the goodwill of the majority. In a democratic society, the rights of minorities cannot be "overruled" by majority vote. The law is supreme and protects the rights of all citizens. We should know that a truly democratic Tibetan society would not force those with deviating views into obedience. A truly democratic Tibetan society would be strong enough to put up with dissenting views even though the majority may not approve of them.

Our problem boils down to the peculiarity of the Tibetan system. If the Dholgyal/Shugden dispute shows us something, then it is the incompatibility of democracy with our actual political behaviour, which, I believe, still reflects the traditional "religion-and-politics-entwined" mentality in both ruler and ruled.

Everyone knows that in the traditional system, the Dalai Lamas have held a double function: On the one hand, they have been top-ranking priests of the Gelug order, and on the other hand, they have functioned as the head of the Tibetan government. We also know that in a democracy, the secular and religious spheres are strictly separated and not ruled by one person for there is the danger of the abuse of power. All democracies in the world have a balance of power to prevent too much power in the hand of a single person.

In the current Dholgyal/Shugden dispute, it would seem the Dalai Lama has been using his political power as the head of the government to promote a religious goal, the clean-up of the Gelug order. This is very problematic, in fact, in a democracy, using political authority for a religious purpose constitutes an abuse of power.

The next question then is: Why is nobody raising any red flags?

Tibetan social behaviour in this dispute would confirm that in a system, where the leader is held in God-like esteem, it is difficult for the average citizen to hold diverging views. In such a system, there is little space for egalitarian discourse or democratic debate, because one participant is, by definition, infallible and beyond scrutiny.

Many Tibetans seem to save the intellectual effort because they believe the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, and the rest of us are not. Due to his divine background and omniscient capability, many seem to believe he knows by default what's best.

Many may also support his views out of gratitude. After all, the Dalai Lama does have an impressive track record of what he has done for his country and his people. We all love him for that. The whole world loves him. So many Tibetans are deeply grateful and give him unconditional loyalty in return.

For these reasons, many Tibetans are inclined to take an automatic stand in favour of the Dalai Lama even if they may not have a religious stake in the Dholgyal/Shugden issue per se.

But in a democracy, the leader or government is only one element of the social fabric made up of political parties, organisations, institutions etc. A true democracy is diverse and pluralistic, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. The spiritual experience of a Dalai Lama is no more true than the spiritual experience of the average Tibetan is false. If they end up with diverging views, it is wrong for the Dalai Lama to pressure others into accepting his view. Even if his spiritual insight is considered superior, the others have the democratic right to believe in their view.

The few, who have arrived at diverging views regarding Dholgyal/Shugden, and somehow manage to adhere to them, have been virtually shut out of society. They are not welcome at Tibetan gatherings and the Dalai Lama has regularly asked them to leave the venue when they attended his teachings.

People seem to have no problem with this style, because the majority seems to be stuck in the traditional "religion-and-politics-combined" mentality: How dare they be smarter than the Buddha? How dare they defy the leader without whom we would have been finished long ago? How dare they ignore the advice of someone who has nothing but genuine compassion at his heart? How dare they?

The reaction has been to ostracise and slander this minority as non-patriotic, pro-Chinese, murderers, greedy for money, and members of a cult rather than real Buddhists.

But when we take a closer look, we realise that it is a diverse group of people who practice Dholgyal/Shugden. They are not a monolithic block with the goal to damage the Dalai Lama's reputation, help China or corrupt Buddhism.

The most controversial Dhogyal/Shugden supporters seem to be the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) and the Western Shugden Society. Since these groups are mainly made up of Westerners, they are not under the sphere of influence of Tibetan society and as such have been the most vocal in protesting against the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile. Their protest for religious freedom is likely to continue since they cannot be directly pressured by Tibetan society.

The Tibetan side of Dholgyal/Shugden practitioners seems less organized and also avoids direct confrontation with the Dalai Lama. There is an organisation called "Dorje Shugden Devotee's Charitable & Religious Society" based in New Delhi, but how numerous they are and how far they are prepared to go to safeguard their religious freedom is not clear.

Some Dholgyal/Shugden supporters voiced their grief on Swiss TV several years ago, some are said to have gone to Indian courts and others approached Amnesty International for support. But my impression is, most Tibetan Dholgyal/Shugden supporters keep a low profile. In general those defiant Lamas, Geshes, and lay people are without any affiliation to an organization. They tend not to voice their dissent in public for fear of being exposed.

I personally know of several people who stick to Dholgyal/Shugden as part of their spiritual practice. I have no idea what that practice looks like and I'm not the least interested. All I can say is that they are neither pro-Chinese, nor greedy for money, nor do they approve of violence to resolve a dispute. They do not believe in Gelug supremacy to the point where they belittle other Buddhist schools. I have never heard a bad word from them about Kundun. They seem sad but not bitter. They do not understand why the Dalai Lama wants to exterminate this practice. But unlike the Western Dholgyal/Shugden supporters, they have kept their grief to themselves hoping that if they keep quite and do not retaliate, the storm will pass.

It would be foolish to follow that all other Dholgyal/Shugden supporters have some sort of affinity with China just because a few are considered Chinese spies. And if some have murdered, it is silly to believe, everyone worshipping Dholgyal/Shugden is violent. If some pray to Dholgyal/Shugden to become rich, it doesn't mean that everyone worshipping Dholgyal/Shugden only thinks about money. And if some people who worship Dholgyal/Shugden believe in Gelug supremacy, it doesn’t make everyone worshipping Dholgyal/Shugden a Gelug chauvinist.

We must be careful not succumb to the habit of labeling dissenters. We should make the effort to look behind the label to the content and differentiate, otherwise the witch hunt will continue.

If Tibetan society were truly democratic, cooperation would be based on free will, and people would be encouraged to think for themselves, making up their own minds. If Tibetan society were truly democratic, people who do not follow the opinion leader, would not be ostracised.

The way Tibetans have been handling the Dholgyal/Shugden issue says quite a bit about the state of our democratic values. We Tibetans are okay with dissenters being forced into obedience. We see nothing wrong with this political style. We have no issues with the Dalai Lama exerting pressure on dissenters by using secular government organs and tolerating oaths and signature actions in his name. Some even believe it is their duty to expose Dholgyal/Shugden supporters and slander them.

Until recently I thought, the more we talk about this conflict, the worse it becomes. I have changed my mind. I know now that it is wrong to remain silent. All genuine Tibetan democrats must speak up in the political debate over Dholgyal/Shugden. When a few are forced to take on the view of many, we’re going down a dangerous path. It is our duty to speak up. Our young democracy will remain in bad shape if we let this happen without a reaction.

Geronimo
06 October 2008 at 20:28

"Reasoning from Madness"

The Dalai Lama’s Campaign against Human Rights

The fact that the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile have been able to subject the Tibetan populace to an oath swearing campaign, whereby they promise not to engage in prayer to Dorje Shugden or have dealings with anyone who does, harkens back to the religious persecution in England during the 17th century whereby religious uniformity was mandated by the state.

That this oath swearing campaign initiated by the Dalai Lama has bypassed our conscience and our concept of religious freedom as an unalienable human right is a sign of a deeper crisis that has emerged in the Tibetan and Buddhist Community.

It is a crisis that has arisen in part because the Dalai Lama is appealing to something quite unrelated to reason.

In video footage aired by Al Jazeera on Sept 30th the Dalai Lama says:

“I used to worship Shugden. The spirit was very fond of me. However, I realised it was a mistake. So I stopped. Recently monasteries have fearlessly expelled Shugden monks where needed. I fully support their actions. I praise them. If monasteries find taking action hard, tell them the Dalai Lama is responsible for this. Shugden followers have resorted to killing and beating people. They start fires. And tell endless lies. This is how the Shugden behave. It is no good.”

In the same video Samdong Rinpoche the Prime Minister of the Tibetan Government in Exile says:

“A lot of Shugden perpetrators are becoming terrorists and that they are willing to kill anybody. They are willing to beat up anybody. It is very clear that now people who are propitiating Shugden are very close to the PRC (People’s Republic of China) leadership. That is clear.”

So by characterizing Dorje Shugden practitioners as killers and thugs with links to the People’s Republic of China the Dalai Lama and Samdong Rinpoche are appealing to some of the deepest fears that Tibetan people have. This is quite dangerous because by appealing to these fears allows the Dalai Lama to dismiss any evidence of wrongdoing in the name of protecting the Tibetan people. This is very similar to what is happening in American society. In the wake of September 11th, the Bush Administration has used the politics of fear to wage war on an enemy that didn’t pose any threat to us (as we now know Iraq had no connection to Al Qaeda and no WMD). By subscribing to fear based politics we are eliminating the role of fact-based reasoning in the proceedings. This phenomena is described so eloquently by Thomas Jefferson:

“Throughout history, our innate fear of others-who-are-different-from-us has combined all too frequently with some malignant dogma, masquerading as a message from God, to unleash the most horrific violence and oppression in the repertoire of hell. Moreover this deadly form of exclusivist group passion can be virtually invulnerable to reason. So it is especially useful to demagogues who learn how to fan it and exploit it to gain and consolidate power…

…Having replaced the divine right of kings with the divine rights of individuals, our Founders overthrew the monarchy and designed a self-government according to the structures of reason. And they took special care to insulate the ongoing deliberations of democracy against the recombination of fear and dogma, by guarding against any effort by government to establish in law any trace of divine justification for the exercise of power.” (The Assault on Reason, p48)

So what we have here is the divine right of the Dalai Lama versus the rights of individuals to practice the prayer of their choosing.

In the Al Jazeera segment the interviewer asks Tsultrim Tenzin, MP in the Tibetan Government in Exile, if the Tibetan Parliament debated the Dorje Shugden issue He replies:

“There was no argument. If there was some opposition, then there will be some argument, but there is no opposition. We do not have any doubt about the Dalai Lama’s decisions. We do not think he is a human being. He is a supreme human being, and he is god, he is Avalokiteshvara, he has no interest [in] himself, he always thinks of others. Everybody is happy. Our system is everybody is happy. There is democracy, full democracy. Everyone can experience whatever he likes”

Thomas Jefferson could not have scripted a better example as to why the divine right of kings and the divine right of individuals are incompatible governing principles. Surely Tsultrim’s nonsensical assessment that everyone is happy is callous and insensitive to those monks who are being expelled from their monasteries because of their practice of the Dorje Shugden prayer. Surely it is lunatic reasoning for those people who have been forced to flee from their homes under threat of violence because of their practice of this prayer. But the lack of interest in these crimes by the TGIE is indicative of the Tibetan thought process. The Dalai Lama is god therefore his decisions must be correct. Unfortunately this holds even if in reality they are harming others.

This divine right of the Dalai Lama in the eyes of the TGIE is allowing a bending of the law that makes a mockery of any sense of truth and justice. How can Tsultrim Tenzin say there is no opposition when on their own website, www.tibet.com it says:

“An organization, called Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society, has been spreading a great deal of misinformation, alleging that the Tibetan Administration in exile is persecuting the devotees of a certain spirit, known as Dholgyal, otherwise known as Shugden.”

But this is politics Tibetan style. So instead of granting the opposition a voice in the government what it does is re-categorize the opposition as a fringe and fanatical element of society and then turn around and say that there is no political opposition. Guess again. In fact the Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society have filed a lawsuit against the Dalai Lama and the TGIE for violations of basic human rights in the Delhi High Court of India having no other political recourse with their own government.

As their lawyer Shree Sanjay Jain says:

“It is certainly a case of religious discrimination in the sense that if within your sect of religion you say that this particular deity ought not to be worshipped, and those persons who are willing to worship him you are trying to excommunicate them from the main stream of Buddhism, then it is discrimination of the worst kind.”

gandul harry
06 October 2008 at 22:48

Hi Shaza,

Thanks for your points, you raise some good points and questions for digestion.

I shall be withdrawing from this debate for now, perhaps only temporarily. I am needing some time to think more and talk less : )

I wish you all the best in this affair, and in general, of course.

Geronimo
07 October 2008 at 01:50

JOIN THE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM

"WE'RE PUTTING AN END TO THE DALIA LAMA'S

"PINNOCHIO POLITICS"!

shaza
07 October 2008 at 16:39

Hi Harry

-------------------------------"I am needing some time to think more and talk less"

same here

but i wonder if i'm willing to think and read as much if i don't talk about them...

anyway, good luck on your dharma practices, you and Ron have been great

ciao

Shaza

Tenzin
08 October 2008 at 01:41

Here is a relevant blog on this subject: http://dorjeshugdenblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/conventiona...

An extract: "We can all agree that the Dalai Lama doesn’t like the practice of Dorje Shugden and that he has his stated reasons for disapproving of it. Leaving these reasons for future debate, the intention here is to focus on whether or not the Dalai Lama is using his position as a political leader to ban Dorje Shugden prayer, which is clearly a religious practice.

This is an important point for investigation because the Dalai Lama declares publicly that he is not banning the practice, merely advising against it because it is not “Buddhist in nature.”

“In a BBC interview, the Dalai Lama said he had not advocated a ban, but he had stopped the worship of the spirit because it was not Buddhist in nature. The exiled Tibetan leader said people were free to protest and it was up to individuals to decide.”

(BBC News 2008)

Factually speaking, the consequence of this statement is that those speaking up about the ban on Dorje Shugden prayer by the Dalai Lama are being routinely discredited, and the documented crimes and abuses that they are protesting against are being disregarded as non-existent. Politics has a long history of employing such tactics. If a fact is denied often enough and loud enough and by enough people (especially if a weighty figure of authority lends his or her voice to the dismissal), the fact eventually becomes generally viewed as a falsehood. [Question: How many Iraqi nationals were on the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center buildings?]

I have nothing against the Dalai Lama personally, and I possess no abiding need to defame him, but I do have to say, Dalai Lama, “Your pants are on fire!” In a speech the Dalai Lama made at a Tibetan University in Southern India January 2008:

“I have meditated and considered (my decision to put aside the Shugden) at length in my soul and spirit before coming to the right decision”, he said. People have killed, lied, fought each other and set things alight in the name of this deity. These monks must be expelled from all monasteries. If they are not happy, you can tell them that the Dalai Lama himself asked that this be done, and it is very urgent.”"

See http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com for the Al Jazeera source video and transcript.

gandul harry
09 October 2008 at 02:19

Hi Shaza,

"but i wonder if i'm willing to think and read as much if i don't talk about them..."

Thanks, that's a very good point you make there. I agree, if you don't talk to others it's easy to just forget about these things. Fortunately for me, i am a raving internet addict, lol, so i will probably be back in conversation soon enough.

I find there comes a point when debates tend to get a bit circular and argumentative. I think this is normal, since most of us are probably of limited mind capacities. But i think sometimes, for me anyway, it's good to pull out and take a breather, let go of things a little, let the mind relax a bit.

Anyway, thanks for your time and words. Yeah, Ron is solid!

Meet again soon,

Harry

Tenzin
17 December 2008 at 00:49

There has been a lot of terrible things happening since the last comment on this post. Many have been described on http:www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org and its blogspot, as well as elsewhere. Many nonShugden practitioners are now also questioning the Dalai Lama's actions (finally, and thank goodness).

Here are links to a few of the latest:

http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/12/open-le...

“The monasteries have been cleansed!” http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/12/tibetan...

and

http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/11/respons...

The Dalai Lama is visiting the Southern India monasteries soon (in Jan) and the poor Shugden monks there are terrified.

Dalai Lama, please give religious freedom. This cannot go on.

Lyara
19 December 2008 at 02:35

Two Christmas Presents for Dorje Shugden practitioners!

Ten Simple Reasons why Dorje Shugden is a Buddha

http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/12/ten-sim...

and

Some Thoughts on the History of a Practice

http://truthaboutshugden.wordpress.com/some-thoughts-on-the-...

Meanwhile, even non-Shugden practitioners just trying to get to the bottom of this problem by checking out articles on the Internet are coming to the inevitable conclusion that the Dalai Lama's ban is just wrong. Plain wrong. For example,

http://maramyfriend.blogspot.com/2008/12/dorje-shugden-part-...

http://mountainphoenixovertibet.blogspot.com/2008/10/evil-sp...

And there has been an increasing amount of press on the subject, for example:

France 24 : http://www.france24.com/en/20080808-dalai-lama-demons-india-...

Al Jazeera : http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/10/dal...

The Dalai Lama will not be able to get away with this for much longer, and religious freedom will be restored whether he likes it or not.

All we want from you for Christmas in 2008, Dalai Lama, is religious freedom.