Steven Baxter

Patrolling the murkier waters of the mainstream media

Sorry Ricky, that joke isn't funny any more

"Mong face" is just a punchline desperately in search of a set-up.

By Steven Baxter Published 19 October 2011 11:29

I once went to see Bernard Manning and I laughed so much it hurt. It was the night he died.

No, it wasn't. It was during my days as a provincial hack, when Manning had come to do a show, I was offered review tickets and I went out of idle curiosity. Turning up a little late, Manning wheezed onto stage -- he was in his 70s -- and complained about how he'd got his Rolls Royce lost in Tooting.

"It's full of fucking Pakis there, isn't it?" he roared, and you could sense the relief and joy in the room. Yes, we were going to get our racist jokes. All was going to be right with the world. Here we were, in a safe place from nascent political correctness, which was already going mad.

I did laugh a lot at his jokes at first. Manning, whatever else you think of him, had great comic timing, and some of the material was funny.

I say this, as you know, as a fully paid-up member of the PC Brigade and the fun-hating Left (capital L essential). But about halfway through, I found I wasn't laughing so much. Bernard packed the second half of his act with more and more (badly crooned) songs; even after a lifetime in the business, his material didn't stretch to more than an hour. Because there came a point when, having heard gag after gag in which the Jew, the Paki, the nigger, the woman or whoever was on the receiving end, it became pretty predictable. And you got the sense that he knew that himself.

Which brings me to Ricky Gervais. After tweeting a picture of his "mong face" the other day, he unleashed a gentle tornado of disapproval. Many condemned him for the use of the word; others were disappointed with his behaviour afterwards, in which he claimed that "haters" were just jealous of his success.

Richard Herring, who knows a sight more about comedy than I do, wrote a well-crafted blogpost about why it jarred with him.

It jarred with me too, not because of the word itself but because, as was the case with Bernard Manning, there can come a point where offensive jokes stop being funny, where the situation shifts and it begins to look like simple trash talk, of one stronger person picking on a weaker person. For me, the time when Gervais's followers started berating anyone who had taken offence was when it stopped being funny, if it ever had been.

I'll put my hand up now for the avoidance of doubt and say I like offensive jokes. On his most recent tour, I saw Jimmy Carr complete a night of brilliant gags with an encore in which he tested his audience by telling increasingly shocking jokes. It culminated with a one-liner so extraordinarily filthy that I really can't repeat it here -- suffice it to say it was truly vile and unpleasant. And hilarious. But your mileage may vary. You may have sat through it in stony silence, horrified, wondering why on earth anyone would find that amusing. Not me; I loved it.

I think comedy can be about testing boundaries and revealing to ourselves the prejudiced, awkward, dark and downright unpleasant folk we sometimes are deep down inside.

Whether it's Frankie Boyle mocking the weak or Stewart Lee honing a typically convoluted riff about wanting to see Richard Hammond decapitated, it makes me laugh. Look back at now revered classics like Derek and Clive or The Producers, and there are still parts that should -- and do -- make you wince. But I find myself laughing, too.

And one of my all-time favourite moments of TV -- Alan Partridge temporarily escaping from his crazed stalker, Jez -- relies on the line "No way you big spastic, you're a mentalist!"

So what's the difference there between Partridge's "spastic" and Gervais's "mong"? Why do I find one funny and the other tragic? I think it comes down to a question of tone. Partridge is berating someone who's tried to imprison him, and you can forgive his use of the playground slur as a punchline; with Gervais there is no set-up, there's just a punchline. Mong. I look like a mong! Mong. That's all there is to it.

True, some people do go out of their way take offence, others can't help being offended, and others aren't offended at all. I tend to fall into the latter category when it comes to comedy, but that doesn't mean I can't see understand why people are upset, offended and dismayed by certain jokes. Sometimes, no matter how careful you are, you're going to hurt others' feelings.

Sometimes that's a price worth paying for a laugh, and sometimes it isn't.

Tags: Ricky Gervais comedy

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71 comments

Thu, 2011-10-20 21:08 — Diplo (not verified)

Maybe I should clear up where I stand. I didn't what he did was funny. I am not trying to reclaim any word.

Just because you say that a word can only be reclaimed positively, doesn't make it so. What about the examples "idiot" and "moron"? They are still negative but they no longer carry their original connotations.

Everyone has the right to be offended and to their views - I never said otherwise. But I too am allowed to criticise their views.

MenCap has done a lot of good things for children but they do not have an authority on language. They were right in calling out anything that may be perceived that further promotes persecution of disabled children.

I never said it was a sophisticated joke - he made a silly face and gave it a name.

I was trying to point out the irony that a name of significant human race was "reclaimed" (in your language) was assigned to those features. What if they used the word "chinese" to describe Down syndrome features? How do you feel about that?

But when a comedian pulls a silly face and calls it "mong" (not even mongoloid), people get all high and mighty. But their still OK with calling Down Syndrome features mongoloid.

Be offended. I don't care. He's twat for doing this. But the guys who got offended it by it are bigger idiots.

Thu, 2011-10-20 21:10 — Michael Law (not verified)

He never was funny - he's always been a nasty bigot taking the piss out of anyone who he considered weaker than him, a true fascist who pretended to be a sympathetic and left leaning but really a typical Thatcherite product. Horrible

Thu, 2011-10-20 21:12 — Diplo (not verified)

the above was meant to be for Louise.

please forgive my grammar and spelling mistakes (eg: their instead of they're etc.)

Thu, 2011-10-20 21:25 — james (not verified)

Ricky Gervais was funny when he played David Brent. But he's lazy and stupid when it comes to his public image. He doesn't make any attempt to hide the nasty, insecure side of his character and just comes across as an arrogant fool. The only "edgy" comedian who is any good is Jimmy Carr because he's actually intelligent and has a skill with words People like Frankie Boyle and Ricky Gervais mocking fat people are funny only to teenage boys

Thu, 2011-10-20 21:47 — Freeman2

How about working class characters always being portrayed as idiots? Is that okay?

Thu, 2011-10-20 01:38 — lascenara17

Yeah comedy can be about testing boundaries, but today's comedians seem to be obsessed with testing boundaries and nothing more. Does everyone have to push the envelope when it comes to taste and acceptance? Maybe audiences only want to be challenged some of the time, even from a comedian whose act/gimmick is constantly insulting defenseless people; it gets tiring and boring, feeling guilty about every laugh if they're all on the same level of abuse

Thu, 2011-10-20 02:01 — mindit (not verified)

just leave it. 'mong' is not funny. it causes offence. it causes upset.
it upsets me and my family. arrogant to assume you could never feel the same.

Fri, 2011-10-21 23:05 — David Hatton (not verified)

Anyone who believes Ricky Gervais is offensive is either misinterpreting what he said or unintelegent. His humour makes a mockery of the bigots who really think like that. As with this case, it is those who are making the connection of the word to Downs people who are the offensive ones as he has said time and time again that he didn't mean this. Read more: http://davidhatton1987.blogspot.com/2011/10/ricky-gervais.html

Wed, 2011-10-19 11:44 — Robert (not verified)

Surely the difference between Partridge's 'spastic' and Gervais' 'mong' is that Partridge is a fictional character who is a bit of an idiot and you would expect him to be unthinkingly offensive whereas Gervais was just being himself?

Wed, 2011-10-19 11:45 — Lee (not verified)

The Partridge joke works because he's playing a ridiculous provincial character which places us as critical outsiders. Gervais, however, is just trying to gather sympathy for his own barbarity.

Wed, 2011-10-19 11:48 — nick tolhurst (not verified)

Good blog Steven, but you miss the most important point. Bernard Manning became less popular not really because the "professionally offended" outlawed him but because an increasing number of people just didnt find him that funny. An offensive (even un-PC) comic will always find work if they make enough people laugh. Its the same with Gervais he's had some great ideas and got tremendous ability but one gets the feeling he's getting a bit lazy. "Offensive" comedy can be the best comedy there is, but if its not that funny it will only really attract the people who like offending people. Gervais had better be careful he doesnt end up with Manning's audience.

Wed, 2011-10-19 11:50 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

I suppose there are jokes that aren't jokes, and that's why they are jokes.

Wed, 2011-10-19 11:53 — Vidalia (not verified)

Nick - I think that shark has already been jumped.

Thu, 2011-10-20 13:08 — ang (not verified)

@Robert Taggart.

It's not about being politically correct, it's about being appalled by a grown man poking fun at people with learning difficulties.
Most of these people would not even be aware that he was being offensive about them, let alone be able to defend themselves and that makes it so much worse.
I assume that yourself and most of the people posting here do not have a mentally disabled child, otherwise you would understand how sickening this attack is.

Wed, 2011-10-19 12:05 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

"Offensive" comedy can be the best comedy there is, but if its not that funny it will only really attract the people who like offending people.'

It depends who you are offending and if they have been offended before in the way that you have offended them. The predictability of 'set' 'ways' of offending certain people is the thing that makes the comic dated.

The other thing that makes it unfunny is that the offense is just down right nasty... it's just too base, without any originality. For instance, if I said 'Baxter you're a moron' I would in effect be offending myself. I mean it is so base that the source of the expression (me) becomes the joke. Baxter who was the butt of my joke now becomes the one who is adulated and loved and the comic (me) is the butt of the joke. This may be so even if Steven may actually be moronic than me.

But, and this is a big but, there is no way that can be Steven. I mean there is no way you can be more moronic than me?

Is there?

Wed, 2011-10-19 12:09 — Tom (not verified)

Agree with both Robert and Lee; it's more of a comment on how panicky the Partridge prat is rather than an acceptable use of a playground slur.

Very much agree with the rest of the article. Well-written and spot on as ever. Richard Herring's Warming Up post was also excellent.

Thu, 2011-10-20 08:25 — dfhfrtgtyh (not verified)

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Wed, 2011-10-19 12:24 — Black Guardian (not verified)

I'm outraged! It is political correctness gone mad when a multi-millionaire can't take the piss out of the learning-disabled without facing a wave of petty-minded envy!

Thu, 2011-10-20 23:27 — NK (not verified)

Karyobin: I have raised the matter of Flashbuck's use of the word 'Fact' at the end of his 'puerile statements' before but he doesn't seem to have taken the advice.

I have noticed that he also turns almost every discussion to homosexuality - no matter the blogger or the topic.

A closet case if I ever saw one. Fact.

Thu, 2011-10-20 08:41 — Colin Sloss (not verified)

I read that 'mong' was short for 'Monolian' but I think it is not short for a race of people, I think it is short for 'Mongoloid'. Anyway, Ricky shouldn't have used it.

Wed, 2011-10-19 12:30 — bob marley snr (not verified)

I am a big fan of both Ricky Gervais and Richard Herring. I thought Richard Herring made a wonderful point about the whole 'mong' word debate. Considering that Ricky Gervais writes quite a lengthy and sometimes enjoyable blog (like Richard Herring) I was hoping for a counterblast to Richard Herring which would put the use of the word into a different perspective. All I got was a link to some crappy urban dictionary rip-off site and him saying he was still going to use the word, then some more pics of him 'monging up'….4/10 Ricky, you must do better.

Sun, 2011-10-23 21:08 — Libertarian (not verified)

Grow up and let the man say what he wants. Don't be such Mongs.

Wed, 2011-10-19 12:37 — Flashbuck (not verified)

Words change in meaning over time. Fact. You've only got to look at the way the gayers seized on the term gay to use it for their own self-identification, thus destroying a perfectly acceptable and innocent word. But ha ha ha how funny it is now that the term gay has been taken back by others and used as a term to express disapproval of something or mock it. HaHaHa.

Wed, 2011-10-19 12:43 — Flashbuck (not verified)

As far as Bernard Manning is concerned. He was and remains the only truly edgy comedian. Compared to today's soppy self-censoring weasels, Manning is a giant.

And his success didn't decline. All his clubs and shows were sell outs. His popularity though and and his public appeal were seriously undermined by the ideologically driven BBC not having the balls to broadcast his stuff. Fact.

Sun, 2012-01-15 16:05 — Lamia (not verified)

Whether it's Frankie Boyle mocking the weak or Stewart Lee honing a typically convoluted riff about wanting to see Richard Hammond decapitated, it makes me laugh."

Yeah, because Downs children dying young is such a funny subject, isn't it? Snigger, snigger. What an evil, hypocritical cock you are.

Wed, 2011-10-19 12:52 — JH (not verified)

I remember liking Gervaise a lot when he appeared on the 11 O'Clock Show. He played a character with shocking and outrageous views, and when the audience / or the other presenters expressed shock, he feigned surprise, as if he thought the views were normal.

It was funny. The thing is, he *was* playing a character, but the character's name was Ricky Gervaise. Just as Stewart Lee plays a character on stage, who's name is Stewart Lee.

Either Gervaise has forgotten the line between the fictional character "Ricky Gervaise" and the real Ricky Gervaise...

... or perhaps more interestingly, he has knowingly chosen to inhabit Twitter in character as his offensive doppelganger.

Don't know which. The problem is, he has fans who won't consider any of this.

Wed, 2011-10-19 12:54 — Sue (not verified)

Surely the difference in the Partridge case is that, as always, he is the butt of the joke, you're laughing at his ignorance/ idiocy.

Thu, 2011-10-20 09:43 — flashbucks mum (not verified)

for someone who really hates stewart lee you seem to know an awful lot about him, bit odd that.

Anyway take those earphones off, I have left you a cup tea by the side of your bed. Also stop wanking, you're getting far to old for that.

Sat, 2011-10-22 06:05 — Minami (not verified)

Ricky Gervais has never been funny in his own right. He is the straight-man to Karl Pilkington.

Wed, 2011-10-19 13:04 — Rachel Pearce (not verified)

I agree that Alan Partridge says things that Steve Coogan couldn't (and wouldn't) because he is a fictional character. If "David Brent" made stupid, ignorant jokes it would be part of his stupid, ignorant character. (I don't know if he did because I have never seen The Office). Maybe Ricky Gervais is playing "Ricky Gervais", a stupid, ignorant comedian who has over-inflated ideas of his popularity and limited capacity for self-awareness.

Wed, 2011-10-19 15:50 — crabstix (not verified)

Why does he look like a Mong-olian?

Or is it a candygram for Mong-0?

I do not get it.

Wed, 2011-10-19 13:21 — Mr. T (not verified)

Is it alright for me to call Ricky Gervaise an arsehole if I redefine the word so that it doesn't mean a hole which shit comes out of?

Wed, 2011-10-19 13:22 — Rory Moran (not verified)

Everyone has a Mong face, It's funny, get over it!!

Thu, 2011-10-20 11:02 — Flashbuck (not verified)

@Alex Baldwin

Stop wriggling, loser.

In the Jerry Opera thing by Lee there's all sorts of obscenity, including portrayals of Jesus as gay and swearing. But of course, that's all brave and edgy, eh? Pathetic.

What would be really brave and edgy would be staging such a show portraying Mohammed as gay. But would Lee ever do that? Never.

Brave and edgy so-called comedians such as Lee, Mitchell, Fry, etc., only go for soft, easy targets, such as Blair, Bush, the Pope or Jesus.

Like I said, if Manning were still around he'd be the only comedian having a go at Muhammad. Stewart Lee and the rest of the brave and edgy clowns stick to the soft easy stuff, Christians and Christianity (yawn), just like Gervais goes for easy targets with his stuff. None of them have any balls or talent.

Now run along, sonny, I'm done using you as a dope-on-a-rope.

Fri, 2011-10-21 05:25 — Colin Sloss (not verified)

I was oblged to go to New Oxford Shoter Dictionary. it said Mongoloid 1 of or relating to a broad division of division of humankind including the indigenous people of east Asia, SE Asia, and the Articregion of North America. 2 offensive affected with Down's syndrome.
I stii think Ricky shouldn't have used it.

Wed, 2011-10-19 13:30 — Karyobin (not verified)

Putting 'Fact' after a puerile statement raises it above the level of critical enquiry. Fact.

Sat, 2011-10-22 10:43 — Jed (not verified)

Like Ed says, it's Jed not Jez, stop getting Partridge wrong!

Also as the first commenter points out, you've entirely missed the point with the Partridge reference, you can't compare a fictional character where part of the humour is his non pc views to a comedian tweeting his own views via his twitter account..

Thu, 2011-10-20 11:54 — thoughtful thought? (not verified)

is Harriet Harmen having an affair with a man that is not her husband?

Wed, 2011-10-19 14:07 — Neville Peters (not verified)

it's interesting to hear you laughed heartily at Bernard Manning's racist material, despite being a fully paid up member of the PC brigade.

I wonder, however, if you would have laughed if some of those offensive terms and been fired off regularly at you in an aggressive and pejorative manner on a regular basis during your early years and beyond, as has been the case for a great many people in this country.

Unfortunately, THAT kind of racist material rarely loses its impact on repeated use.

Thu, 2011-10-20 12:06 — Robert Taggart

@ Stevey B !
It is funny... watching all those PC 'crazies' work themselves into a lather !

Wed, 2011-10-19 14:50 — ang (not verified)

HI RICKY GERVAIS.

YOU HAVEN'T BEEN BLESSED WITH CHILDREN YET, HAVE YOU?

HEARD OF THE SAYING, 'WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND'.

BE CAREFUL MATE, YOU MAY REGRET IT SOME DAY.

JUST BECAUSE YOUR MATERIAL HAS DRIED UP, DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN PICK ON PEOPLE WHO CAN'T FIGHT BACK. ARSEHOLE!!!

Wed, 2011-10-19 14:52 — Jon (not verified)

Flashbuck - I take it when you lament the BBC's role in Manning's popularity, you're also implying the country's commercial broadcasters were also applying a similar standard?

Wed, 2011-10-19 14:58 — Fraziel1

Perhaps someone can tell me what is offensive about the word mong. I genuinely do not know. Which shows you how politically correct it is to complain about it. Usage of the word mong, as i have heard it, is just a derogatory term with no real meaning. Are the PC left now trying to say it is short for mongol? I have never used it in that context and cant imagine how anyone, other than those looking to be offended, could be upset by it.To actually blog about it is really quite pathetic.

Wed, 2011-10-19 15:16 — Flashbuck (not verified)

@Jon

You're a mong. Fact.

Wed, 2011-10-19 15:18 — Peter (not verified)

@Fraziel1 How can you possibly opine over whether a term is offensive or not if you don't know what it means?

FYI, it is a derogatory term for someone suffering from Down's syndrome - what used to be known as mongolism.

If you don't understand what it means, rest assured plenty of people do, many of whom are perfectly entitled to be offended by it.

Wed, 2011-10-19 15:21 — tintoret (not verified)

I don't think you can equate Frankie Boyle's nasty material with Stewart Lee's Richard Hammond routine. Lee was using the failure of Clarkson/Hammond et al to empathise with the people they make racist jokes about (I think it was a joke about Mexicans that started it off.) In response Lee performs a vile routine which shows a total lack of humanity towards Hammond and which comletely undermines their "it's just a joke" defence. That's why I was laughing at that routine. But these things do run the risk of appealing to people who just like nasty stuff, no offence.

Wed, 2011-10-19 15:28 — Neuroskeptic (not verified)

My theory is that Ricky Gervais isn't actually very funny. He can act (albeit he can only play one character) and his TV series have been great but his solo stuff is nowhere near as good.

So my conclusion is that his series were funny because of the people who helped write them, not because he himself is funny.

Tue, 2011-10-25 17:33 — The Law (not verified)

Interesting that no one was interested in his use of this term with reference to Susan Boyle in 2010 during the Science tour and accompanying best-selling DVD.

Amusingly, in hindsight, he mimicked someone writing in to complain and then explained why he was using the word. Pity journalists no longer bother to do any investigation for their stories any more. But they love those bandwagons, always helpful to find something unoriginal to say.