@Matthew fox

*sigh*

You just confirmed you're throwing out Brass Eye style comments about children's coffins without having the first clue what you're talking about. You've seriously made yourself look a bit silly.

Not only can you not say how many kids you imagine were present or have the first clue about how these matches stop, but you go and introduce some other terms you clearly do not have the first clue about the meaning of, or how they apply to the situation we're talking about. Here we go:

*Ground and pound* not relevant. This was not a mixed martial arts contest. 'Ground and pound' would not have been permitted.

*Sprawl and brawl* again, not permitted, so completely irrelevant to the discussion. What do you imagine this means?

*Kneebar* a technique of hyperextending the knee, that may or may not gave been permitted in the case we're talking about. Were one of the kids put in a knee bar, what do you imagine would happen?

Seriously, I keep asking what you imagine would happen because we're clearly talking about your imagination as opposed to the admittedly not ideal situation we're talking about.

Ironic that in the comments to a piece urging people to look at the facts behind a media panic, someone pops up panicking armed with plenty imagination and very few facts.

@matthew fox

This is getting silly and a little childish. My 'teacher argument' (which was actually about how often children get forced to do things they do not want to with much less ability to stop) never fell flat. Whether or not the adult forcing a child to take part in a physical activity is a teacher or a parent does not invalidate the point that children are forced to do things *all the time*. Sometimes this is even by pushy parents as well as teachers, although I never personally experienced that. We don't prevent kids from doing things on the off chance that they might be pressured, otherwise no kid would do anything.

Exactly what would one of these children have had to do if they wanted to stop? You tell me. Otherwise you're just going to continue arguing from a position of ignorance, wasting everyone's time and making a fool of yourself, showing you're not arguing in good faith in the process.

You talk about Brass Eye, but in many respects, you are blind to the importance of child welfare, why is that?

This is just funny. You've proved yourself completely clueless about what the child welfare issues here actually are and are still coming back demanding why I'm the one blind to child welfare issues. It's too funny.

The phrases that I stated underline the barbarity of cage fighting. Ground and Pound doesn't leave much to the imagination.

But, as has been said several times now in the comments and the original piece these children were not 'cage fighting', so the'yre totally irrelevant to the matter at hand. It's like someone arguing about the barbarity of boxing by talking about what happens in knife fights.

Also, bonus points for spotting what one of the phrases might have meant. You know you only have to fire up Wikipedia to find out the others. Why haven't you done that? What does 'sprwal and brawl' mean? What happens when someone gets put in a knee bar? This last one is actually very germane to this discussion.

I mean, you can say with 100% confidence, that those two children really wanted to be there and that they where was under undue influence to participate.

You can ask this question about any sporting event involving children at any time. The truth of the matter is, it would be much, much easier for one of these children to stop than most because of the rules of the game. But you've already proven yourself to be completely ignorant of what they might be. Seriously - how exactly do you think these competitions end? What is in your crazy imagination that conjures images of children dying from wrestling one another?

The lame excuse that they where only wrestling, falls apart, when you see the children kicking out, and when I say that, kicks where going near the head of the other child.

Seriously, it's not an excuse. They really were engaging in a jiu-jutsu bout. Kicking and punching would have led to disqualification.

Where were the children 'kicking out' and nearly hitting the head of the other child? Please point me to a video that shows this and a time for when it occurs. The only things I have seen that could be interpreted as 'kicking out' are where one child is trying to improve his position on the ground by getting his leg in the right place - but of course, you've proven yourself to be completely ignorant of what's happening several times now, so I won't be holding my breath.

Would you like to speculate the outcome if a kick onnect to the temple area, remembering both children had no protective headware, was that a clever idea as well?

What would happen if any kid gets accidentally hit in the temple in any activity? Accidents are a risk in any physical activity, from playing on swings to running in the playground to leaping about in the soft play area. We don't make kids wear headgear on the off chance that there's an accident.

And what do you imagine would happen if a kid got hit in the temple by an errant foot (and it would have been an accident - kicking was definitely not allowed in this case and if one kid had kicked the other he'd have been disqualified), with your overactive imagination? Do you think the temple is an instant death-touch point? That would explain the nonsense about coffins.

What would have happened is that the kid might have got a bruise, and might have been a bit dazed, and the match would have stopped with the disqualification of the kicker. The kickee would most certainly not be made to continue like they might had they been hit playing football or rubgy.

Seriously, your blood lust is quite frighting.

I'm sure it is. Your imagination seems very vivid. If yo want to know what my views on this really are, see what I've written here: Won't somebody think of the cage fighting children. Given your eagerness to inform yourself in this thread though, I won't be holding my breath.

Pro tip: If you're commenting on a piece that criticises a media overreaction, it's probably a good idea to bone up on what the reality of the situation is and not wade in simply restating the argument of the overreaction. So far, it's been like having a discussion with someone horrified with chickens because of their laser-beam eyes and ability to explode on command.

"But chickens can't explode on command!"

"Your blood lust is frightening! Just look at what happens when people are caught in explosions!"

Okay, last time after my message has been eaten three times.

My full post on the issue for matthew, in case he wants to discuss anything other than his fevered imagination:

http://www.fivechinesecrackers.com/2011/09/wont-somebody-think-of-cage-f...

Cage fighting is nothing to do with self-defence.

How many kids participate because they feel pressured to do so?

I suppose we are going to have to wait until they bury a kid before this barbaric practice is outlawed.

I think kids are better off not dead.

Do you have a thing about children's funerals 5cc, do you think a small coffin looks cute?

I thought the net ( for that is surely what it really is - at least in the picture here ) was to stop them falling out? Like on trampolines? The only thing that I'm a bit worried about is whether the parents have signed any bits of paper concerning the day to day running of such sporting clubs. As with any service or product up for sale, we really need to understand what we are signing for these days..lest we end up actually signing our rights away..

In any event/place in the UK one can only trust as any member of the public can trust that the people running these fights have the nous to ring the appropriate emergency services if necessary.

Silly ans Childish, two words that sit comfortable on you 5cc.

For some reason, you are under the impression children, aged 8 and 9 can make informed choices.

I mean, pressure from Parents, Peers and adults seems to be an figment of my imagination.

I think you need to go to specsavers old chap, click on the link and you will see on two seperate occasions, feet near or on the head area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dux5sd-QDDg&feature=related

Why are you rely on the " Accident Happen " theory ?

I hope you have the backbone to review the video, and reply.

Heh. Loving the "Watch if you dare" tone of the last message.

"I mean, pressure from Parents, Peers and adults seems to be an figment of my imagination."

This is what's known as a strawman argument. You've created a weak version of what I've been saying so you can look as though you've knocked it down easily.

What I have *actually* argued is that we can never be 100% sure that children haven't been pressured into *any* sporting activity, and that had either of these children wanted to stop, it would have been easy.

"I think you need to go to specsavers old chap, click on the link and you will see on two seperate occasions, feet near or on the head area."

I've noticed you've made a subtle change from 'kicking out' to 'feet near or on the head area'. I assume this is because you've noticed that, you know, neither kid was kicking - either that or you heard the voiceover on the video saying punching and kicking were not allowed.

In both these occasions, one of the kids was trying to manouvre his opponent into a submission position.

The first is an (dun dun durrrn - scary music please) arm bar, and the second looks like it was an attempt to pull the standing child into a triangle.

In both these cases, had one child *actually* kicked the other, they'd have been disqualified.

"Why are you rely on the " Accident Happen " theory ?"

Because had either child punched or kicked the other child they'd have been disqualified. It's the same reason I rely on the 'accidents happen' theory for football or rugby.

The video you linked to shows the bout finishing and how easy it was for one child to stop. Can you tell me where that is?

I absolutely agree that children should not compete in any sort of martial art for the entertainment of adults.

That said, what harm were the children trying to do to each other?

I think matthew fox has tapped out.

Foxy, perhaps your are just a bit tapped rather than tapped out?

I'm a 1st dan black belt in jujitsu karate and did loads of contests and shows as a kid. Sometimes my parents did push me when I didnt want to do it, perhaps even for their own gratification, but fantastic parents for doing so I think now.

UK people are generally spoilt, take a lot for granted and their values are corrupted. They think a nice job, nice house, a good standards of living are their birth right which they deserve for free before they are willing to contribute to pay for them.

A kid with nothing who is pushed through childhood to achieve something when they would otherwise achieve nothing - thats bad if it means cage fighting?

Hate to agree with anything David Cameron says, but when he decried the culture of violence and the moral collapse in the wake of the riots, he was right.

Those defending kids brawling for the "entertainment" of braindead, lumpenprole adults exemplify this collapse. Their thuggish mentality is the same as the ghouls who thronged the amphitheatres of the Roman Empire to gloat and roar their approval at some poor sod being ripped apart by wild beasts or gladiators fighting to the death.

It's amazing, it's been explained over and over that it wasn't "cage fighting" but even so, people of the comments section still don't seem able to grasp this simple concept. It was jujitsu!

You should get used to it, with Fox buying the contract to show UFC events in the States, Mixed Martial Arts is about to go mainstream and there is nothing that the hand-wringing, Daily Mail readers can do about it! Muhaha!

nato bomb kids in lybia nothing gets reported! Matthew fox is a nob. why dont you moan at nato instead of ppl teaching kids disipline and keeping them off the streets. unless you know what ur talking about shut up.

This is a form of child abuse. It is nothing to do with sport. It is a voyeuristic form of child neglect. For ignorant half witted, low lifes to watch. No doubt much gambling takes place too. Dog fighting is illegal, rightly so. What next, toddler bashing? The people that agree with this should be put on the child abuse register. Sick.

" Tapped Out " another Cage fighting phrase 5cc, I bet you think it is witty.

I appreciate your sighing 5cc, the teacher argument fell flat, didn't it old chap. I mean you revisited your schooldays, and understand the pressure adults can impose on child, and there ability to make informed choices.

You talk about Brass Eye, but in many respects, you are blind to the importance of child welfare, why is that?

The phrases that I stated underline the barbarity of cage fighting. Ground and Pound doesn't leave much to the imagination.

I mean, you can say with 100% confidence, that those two children really wanted to be there and that they where was under undue influence to participate.

The lame excuse that they where only wrestling, falls apart, when you see the children kicking out, and when I say that, kicks where going near the head of the other child.

Would you like to speculate the outcome if a kick onnect to the temple area, remembering both children had no protective headware, was that a clever idea as well?

Seriously, your blood lust is quite frighting.

So youth judo, boxing, karate etc. is morally fine, but jujitsu is wrong because it takes place in a cage.

Fail.

I'm working class And I thought putting kids in the "bear pit" environment of a cage fighting show was disgusting. The kids are old enough to understand that "hardness" not skill are being celebrated at this kind of event.

I'm all for martial arts I'm against baying hordes of drunk morons getting perverse and dubious thrills from watching kids scrap.

YEA GET STUCK IN THERE, TAKE HIM OUT, GET HIM WHERE IT HURTS.
Have I got the right comment box?

PS Indu: I'm a black belt in Aikido .. Ist dan... learnt it while I was in Japan. Bit like jujitsu ney?