Steven Baxter

Patrolling the murkier waters of the mainstream media

How to argue on the internet

The foolproof guide to avoiding intelligent discussion online.

By Steven Baxter Published 28 January 2011 18:10

Fancy derailing a discussion but aren't sure how to go about it? Can't be bothered discussing things properly and would much rather chuck a spanner in the works? No worries. Simply use the Derailing for Dummies guide and you need never think too hard about complicated things again!

The "There's Something Much More Serious Going on Somewhere Else" interruption: "Excuse me, but I can't believe you're not talking about rape in the DRC. Why on earth aren't you talking about that in a blogpost entitled 'Kittens and Bunnies'?"

The "Über-Pernickety Pedant of the Week Award": "I can't help noticing that you mention 1,204 jobs are to be lost under these proposals. I think you're forgetting that one job has already been lost, meaning only 1,203 further jobs will be lost. This entirely undermines your argument."

The "Whataboutery Gambit": "But what about men? What about straight people? What about middle-class people? What about white people? What about white straight male people? What about white straight middle-class middle-aged men?"

Advanced "Whataboutery" (aka The Real Victims): "White straight middle-class middle-aged men are the Real Victims of discrimination. You can't get a job nowadays if you're a white straight middle-class middle-aged man. (Well, I did, but that's beside the point.)"

The "I See You Didn't Mention" Spanner/Works Interface: "I see you didn't mention the crimes of Pol Pot, or Mao Zedong, which were undoubtedly horrific. Funny how people like you never mention their atrocities in a discussion – but then again, I suppose you'd be in favour of that."

The "So Doing Something Unrelated Which You Haven't Mentioned Is All Right, Is it?" flourish: "You say that torturing people is bad. But I suppose shooting them in the face is all right, is it?"

The "You're Doing the Derailing" Derailment Device: "Arguments like yours derail any decent discussion and close it off for people like me, who never like derailing things. I wish you wouldn't derail things like that. Meanwhile, here's my opinion . . ."

Launching the "My One Anecdote Destroys Everything" Hand Grenade: "All very well you saying that about the NHS and how it compares to other health-care systems across Europe and the developed world, but I once spent a night in a hospital and someone was rude to me!"

"What's the point of talking about things?" finger-waggery: "I don't see the point of you writing this post at all. What do you hope you're going to achieve? Do you think the world will change at all because of what you've said? I don't think so. (Of course you could equally make the same point about this comment, but that would be wrong, because me making this comment really will change everything)."

The "Have a Look at My Take on Things" Shameless Plug Parachute: "I disagree with you. In fact, in my post 'But what about the thing I really want to talk about instead?' over at my blog, I think you'll find I've bested you on every single matter."

More from Steven Baxter

View the discussion thread.

65 comments

Fri, 2012-08-31 16:30 — Tom Simpson (not verified)

Thank you for the outstanding posts!

Sat, 2012-05-19 06:42 — Portable Gas Generator (not verified)

Extremely well written piece!!!

Sat, 2012-05-19 03:07 — RogeCoano (not verified)

bleach icy tower characters
delete plz

Tue, 2012-04-24 19:18 — piligrim (not verified)

Очень интересно

Fri, 2011-01-28 21:33 — fleep (not verified)

she hit
dayum, tha sum their talking
. haw

Sun, 2011-02-06 05:28 — south pacific

The internet blogs are just the pubs of old.

The only difference is that in the pub you could tell whether a guy was roaring drunk when sprouting certain views or stone cold sober.

On the net you don't whether the commentator is a donkey, sub-human or human.

As one dog said to another "on the net no one knows you are a dog".

Wed, 2011-12-07 09:32 — LindbergMarley

It does not give a fig, or even a small haw, for fundamentalist laying down of principles. If there's food and warmth going, it's in there, pal, no mistake. It takes its experience and makes the best sense of it that it can, no matter where that may take it. http://www.personalinjurylaws.net/

Fri, 2011-01-28 22:52 — jie4v7i14

Livers - eleven? I'd like to see four-year-olds have a good discussion on existentialism while they're playing with their playdough at pre-school, and then see them walking back and fore across the floor, with their hands on their little chins in deep thought for the following half-hour.

Ditching religion will then be a fait accompli.

Sun, 2011-01-30 10:27 — Olijaan

Julian, I think you're being a little harsh on Ehtch Tee there - he's been exercising a lot of self-restraint in the YouTube department lately and I've enjoyed his comments.

As for trolls, they really can invade from time to time - look at some of the abuse Mehdi Hasan gets from far right commenters who don't normally appear on this site, for example.

All in all, an entertaining blog post.

Fri, 2011-01-28 23:28 — Keir

Except that real religion is existentialist. :)

Fri, 2011-01-28 23:46 — thinkov

what about...shit sussed already

Sun, 2011-01-30 11:50 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Its amazing what people get paid to write

goldblatt fuckstein attys at law's picture

Tue, 2011-10-18 02:42 — goldblatt fuckstein attys at law (not verified)

the only people who hate trolling are those who have been trolled

you can only troll someone if they have something to be ashamed of, something they are hiding, avenues of discussion they are afraid to go down, assumptions that have not been problematized or unpacked, etc.

if you want to eliminate it, you'll have to eliminate wit, satire, self-awareness, parody, and a pretty wide chunk of the human emotional spectrum

and then you will fail because trolls always win

Sun, 2011-01-30 12:19 — Olijaan

Also:

Another new low for the New Statesman. It's because of articles like this that I'm now cancelling my subscription.

Tue, 2011-02-01 01:27 — A Troll (not verified)

You forgot the "Accuse Dissenter of Being a Troll" shut-down - now regularly used by David Allen Green when people dare to take an opposing position to him without appropriate deference to his monumental ego.

See this entertaining thread for perfect examples:

http://www.bishop-hill.net/blog/2011/1/31/more-delingpole.html

Sat, 2011-01-29 00:07 — kelephonica (not verified)

amazing piece. i love it. i can think of a whole community of commenters at cif who have clearly built their entire approach to the internet on this advice!

Sat, 2011-01-29 00:11 — jie4v7i14

Keir - maybe that will explain why this Robin spends his time in Aberdeen Co-Op shop,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3CXi21ejtY
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-12309169

Robins are interesting birds - they ancestrally used to spend their time with wild pigs in far distant ancient times, spotting any worms and insects the pigs dug up with their snouts. Now they spend their time around us, due to a lot less wild pigs about. Don't know how we should take that....

Sat, 2011-01-29 00:19 — Livers (not verified)

@Keir

Your argument offers a "definist fallacy" with a sprinkling of "judgmental language". I collect my £5. :)

Sat, 2011-01-29 00:27 — jie4v7i14

Sorry to finger wag, but what the hell are we all talking about? It is totally off-topic. What's the bluddy point typing anyway? What's even the bluddy point in anything anyway? (tangent no.9, overdone, methinks).

Sat, 2011-01-29 00:55 — Keir

That fact is that this robin is existentialist. It does not give a fig, or even a small haw, for fundamentalist laying down of principles. If there's food and warmth going, it's in there, pal, no mistake. It takes its experience and makes the best sense of it that it can, no matter where that may take it.

Hope that helps. :)

Sat, 2011-01-29 00:56 — MeMonster (not verified)

My favorite is a derailer/end of derailment, in which the commenter ends their point with "Period." As if saying, Look how smart I am, by saying "period" I have effectively ended all discussion on the topic at hand. Whenever I have encountered the use of "Period", it typically follows the weakest, most useless or most obviously false point.

Tue, 2011-02-01 05:06 — Anabells (not verified)

[URL=http://kro-inn.narod.ru/samouchitel-nemeckogo-yazyka-skachat-besplatno-v-formate-fb2.html]самоучитель немецкого языка скачать бесплатно в формате fb2[/URL]
А если тот же герундий мысленно перевести русским причастием: I'm writing = я есть пишущий, то понимание того, как исходную английскую форму употреблять, для передачи какого особого временного значения эта форма служит, существенно прояснится.,
К счастью, таких порталов очень много, и их можно анализировать с различных точек зрения. Но обязательный элемент любого курса - интерактивность обучения, без которого программа превратится в электронный учебник., Карточки произвольного размера (лишь бы хватило места записать слово) обычно вырезаются из плотной бумаги, но можно использовать и обычные блоки для записей., Отличным дополнением к словам будут рисунки. Можно вообще заменить слово на иностранном языке его рисунком: проводите несколько линий, на обороте пишете chair. Конечно, с абстрактными понятиями труднее, но личный опыт показывает, что при желании все можно изобразить.,

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Sat, 2011-01-29 01:17 — jie4v7i14

Keir - that is what I thought as well - pigs to man, a good move, since the ratio of man to wild pig has grown in the last ten thousand years. Always nice to know a creature that wins a bet, unlike the dodo, that gave up flying.

Sat, 2011-01-29 01:27 — jie4v7i14

MeMonster, the word period when used does confuse us brit blokes, harumph!

Sat, 2011-01-29 01:55 — Keir

'pigs to man, a good move'

Mmm, not sure. Pigs are actually clean animals, contrary to popular belief. The ratio point is well taken, though. No contest.

But the real genius of this bird is in its intelligent left-wing predilection. Though maybe as its Scottish, that's only to be expected.

(Oops, what racialism.) :)

Tue, 2011-02-01 05:44 — jie4v7i14

Now that is WHAT you call a spambot - must be klingon/russian.

Stand back, I know how to deal with this.... niet, niet niet niet, niet!

Song? HEY, comrade!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEYsHm0KoMA

Wed, 2011-12-14 19:39 — stroy-box (not verified)

Ëèòåðàòóðà ïî ñòðîèòåëüñòâó è ðåìîíòó http://stroybooks.ru/

Tue, 2011-02-01 05:49 — jie4v7i14

More Ahem! John Barry, who popped his clogs yesterday. Music in interesting between the borders,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Jw6_Xgszk

Sun, 2011-01-30 14:13 — Keir

Humour is just not permissible, eh.

Or should that be humor?

Tue, 2011-02-01 05:57 — jie4v7i14

But it's films, not real life. Real life is total chaos, it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og6PYGhd7Q0

Belgium? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUNpvcfB0IQ

Tue, 2011-02-01 06:00 — jie4v7i14

Young/middle aged men going missing, tv programms? Legion?

Sat, 2011-01-29 02:17 — jie4v7i14

Keir - man killed most wild pigs, and made what's left a farming animal - that is the point I was making, and to show the Robin is quite a geezer. If he lands on your Sporting Times and pecks at a horse on the page, back it. It will come in. A Robin, somehow, knows something we don't.

Tue, 2011-02-01 06:06 — jie4v7i14

Llangollen, harumph!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcIkvGRlF-w

Sat, 2011-01-29 02:46 — Keir

Well, well, a prescient passerine. I had no idea. I must leave a Sporting Times open and see where our resident robin leaves his message!

Tue, 2011-02-01 07:32 — jie4v7i14

By the way, anyone that disagrees to me, I will try, if I have the time, to be your Hitler, oh yes!

What love, time to go down Ikes, well so we go, to the facsist regime known as things made of wood, scandanavian sustainable, and all that bollocks.

I be back, after McD's...

Sat, 2011-01-29 03:30 — jie4v7i14

Peck, not shits Keir. We are not talking gormless birds in the park, shitting anywhere, we are talking about super-intelligent Robins here, that would leave those parrot immigrants, for instance, in the dust in higher almost second dimensional read the newspaper tomorrow time-travel thinking.

Suppose what I am saying, is, listen to a Robin, never a parrot, peckwise...

Sat, 2011-01-29 10:46 — Chris (not verified)

Also:

"Yawn"

"Do you get paid for writing this?"

Sat, 2011-01-29 12:29 — Troll Piddle Nutters (not verified)

Also:
If it wasn't for us, you'd be out of a job so we're right and you're wrong.

Fri, 2011-02-11 21:10 — jie4v7i14

That is a controlling mentality that you are displaying there, John Global?

See how he looks, and I will find a chink to put him down?

YAWN!

We are not in our place of work at the moment, we are in our leisure time. Noticed?

Tue, 2011-02-01 14:27 — Traininguru (not verified)

Baxter's humorous piece "How to argue on the internet" does detail some familiar strategies utilized to short-circuit intelligent discussion online--and elsewhere for that matter.

While some of the comments are also amusing, it is undeniable that a new psychological illness has emerged on the scene: TMTOMH Syndrome. (too much time on my hands.

Sat, 2011-01-29 13:25 — Eddy Anderson (not verified)

This is a great post. I blogged on something similar once over www.politicalreboot.co.uk . . .

Fri, 2011-01-28 18:54 — Freeman2

I think what you're trying to say is...

Sat, 2011-01-29 16:47 — Freeman2

End of.

Sat, 2011-01-29 18:45 — Tim Ireland (not verified)

Your attention to detail clearly shows you up for the obsessive you are.

Fri, 2011-01-28 18:21 — Danger HAM (not verified)

Now this all is interesting article from you (Stephen Baxter) but there hundred of other avenue with overhanging tree like sycamores that cannot just be pushed into some kind of brackets? If you think that it could ever be a reality, whales being decended originally from a creature something like the modern day dog, coelocanth discovered after millions of years, pigs and horses predicting earthquakes, tusked whales in the oceans, dogs and cats living in harmony, and then when I got home my wife had cooked this delightful steak and kidney pie and when I push the knife through the pastry there ia a great "Hisssssss" which I thought was the air escaping but was the same sound as a lobster when it gets killed. In the end, a lot of arguments on the internet are about semantics and about people not listening.

Fri, 2011-01-28 18:28 — sianushka (not verified)

well this is all very well but the real issue is surely people closing off debate on the internet by accusing them of doing all the things you are doing...blah blah sorry, i couldn't resist again.

genius anton. you have said everything i was thinking reading some of the comment on my own blog (plug!) and the comments on your wahtabouttehmenz post you did yesterday.

Fri, 2011-01-28 18:28 — Ernest Pen (not verified)

@DangerHAM I think I love you

Fri, 2011-01-28 18:40 — Benedict (not verified)

Steven,

There are enough trolls on this site already without your giving them ideas.

Fri, 2011-01-28 18:34 — jie4v7i14

"Commenting" and "Discuss" are two different things, aren't they? A "comment" is a closed world of words, which can be taken as a different animal to the one directly above it, and sometimes the thread starter itself even.

And a discussion, if called that, is a debate, which online always decends to the above ten tangents, spinning off into space.

Talking of space, have you heard that the earth's spin is slowing down......