'The issue here is that a woman who had trained to be an official and was perfectly entitled to perform that role was being prejudged incapable of doing it simply on the basis of her gender. Surely you find such sexism abhorrent?'

I think it may be abhorrent to use that word 'abhorrent' in this situation. I don't think that what Gray said about Massey was abhorrent, unless most of the human race is abhorrent. Most men used to make such comments about women drivers, and most women still make such comments about men- and get away with it! Nobody really takes it that seriously, surely. And remember, Gray did not get sacked for saying this, but for making the sort of lewd remark that is often taken as bullying in the workplace, and that is much worse, and far too common. But if Gray goes for that, millions should join him, especially employers. And nobody is saying that. The real point here is why we are talking about something that's commonplace.

So here you are, along with the media, telling me that the cause of the trouble was the treatment of the linesperson, when it wasn't; so the consequence is that the right wingers who want men to be dominated by women have scored a hit. It's now 'abhorrent' to make criticisms of women (not men); it's abhorrent to resist these shady control freaks, who don't have the best interests of women at heart, or any interest other than their own financial ones, make no mistake about that.

The truth is that men get women managers promoted over them for no apparent reason, and they have wives who take too much notice of the TV adverts and programs that belittle men; so they go to escape that tyranny, to watch their own thing at the football.

Only to find a woman waving a flag at them! Is it any wonder that they comment in this way?

Of course there are men like that. I might be one of them, for all you know.

"It's a little jarring to see newspapers that print photos of half-naked women wringing their hands over a sexism row."

Actually I think it's perfectly possible to accept photos of half-naked people whilst still thinking Gray and Keys's comments were abhorrent.

Models can still be treated with respect. Gray and Keys demonstrated in some of their comments that they believe (consciously or otherwise) that women are subhuman. I agree this is a watershed. And about time.

Keir,

Either you crave a good arguement or you are a friend of one of the "lads!"

I've had the unpleasant experience of seeing the "lads" in action at close quarters long before these recent events blew up. They are both in their 50s and behave like 6th form bullies ALL THE TIME.

It's obvious that their fellow workers at Sky Sports had had enough of these "lads." Their co-workers were meticulous in capturing in audio and film just what they were like and have been for years.

Richard Keys in his TalkSport interview still didn't get it and moaned that Karen Brady wouldn't take his phone calls! Why should she? would you? and now we have his wife saying that they were the rock upon which Sky was built. What rubbish real football fans watch the matches not Andy Gray playing with his counters and Richard Keys watching him with loving eyes!

Well to be honest im glad they are both gone.
Women such as Hope Powell and Karen Brady have made a dent in footballs closed shop and for these too clods not to see it is stupid in the extreme.
As a football fan its also heartning to see many fans visting our grounds are female which shows again how out of touch Keys and Gray were.
One only hopes that all this fuss brings the issue above ground.

Certain capitalists, for their own devious reasons, want men to take orders from women. So in many workplaces, men are discriminated against, and middle management is more open to women than men. It 'happens' in TV fiction, with, for instance, Amanda Redman telling three older guys what to do- and Sky in particular is keen on this propaganda model. So a lineswoman in effect telling men what to do is just the thing for Sky, Murdoch and those like them. That's the real significance of this event.

Can I sue anyone who calls me Jock ?

@Keir Yes, because capitalism and feminism have ALWAYS gone hand in hand! That's why so many fortune 500 companies are owned by women, and gigantic corporations and right-wing politicians are always so supportive of equal pay legislation. Those devious, devious feminists!

The issue is not whether they said these things into a microphone, but that they said them at all.

The subsequent footage released reveals at best a culture of immature schoolboy sniggering, at worst a world of bullying and harassment.

Referring to any human being as "it", regardless of gender, is not just offensive, but seems not far the tendency to label them as "animals" when promoting genocide or the dissociative mindset of a serial killer.

I had no idea that 'many workplaces, men are discriminated against, and middle management is more open to women than men.' Just fancy!

It's not that many really though is it? Really?

'It's not that many really though is it?'

How many does one need before it's worth attention?

Keys and Gray were not really having a private conversation - they were in their place of work. Videos released subsequently have shown them making sexist remarks either directed towards or while surrounded by colleagues - be they female co-presenters, fellow pundits, camera-crew etc. If not acceptable in most work places why acceptable at Sky? http://www.carinsurancehq.net/

I wish it was indicating that casual sexism is now unacceotable - however, havinf seen these two defended by the tired old phrase 'just banter', a whole host of 'but what about....' and also told that women need to get a 'thicker skin', as well as the delightful 'chip on your shoulder', and 'no sense of humour', I fear it is not the case.

'It is clear from the ratio of men and women in the most powerful jobs'

For the second time, I ask that people will not invent and misrepresent. Those fail to quote, and arrive late, tend to destroy their own points of view.

This bias is a factor in selecting _middle_ management.

I think we have got the right result and Keys and Gray deserved to go. However, were they being filmed without their knowledge? The reason I ask is, If during the alledged News International phone hacking scandal, a message is put into the public domain that wasn't intended for the public's ears would the offender then be culpable?

Morky, I'm not sure the situations are equivalent. Keys and Gray were not really having a private conversation - they were in their place of work. Videos released subsequently have shown them making sexist remarks either directed towards or while surrounded by colleagues - be they female co-presenters, fellow pundits, camera-crew etc. If not acceptable in most work places why acceptable at Sky? The fact that this has gone public has perhaps made the disciplinary action harsher but doesn't mean none should have been taken, even without the leak.

'some kind of 'team leader' job'

Like Amanda Redman's. That's just what is meant by 'middle management'. Thanks.