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Scottish independence: the view from Belfast

How might the Scottish constitutional debate affect politics in Northern Ireland?

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. Photograph: Getty Images.
Deputy First Minister for Northern Ireland Martin McGuinness (R) speaks to the media as Sinn Fein Leader Gerry Adams (L) looks on. Photograph: Getty Images.

Martin McGuinness’s meeting with the Queen in Belfast this week raised concerns among some Sinn Fein supporters that there has been a softening in the attitudes of the Irish republican leadership to Britain and the institutions of the British state. In fact, McGuinness’s decision probably had more to do with politics in the Irish Republic, where his party was heavily criticised for boycotting Elizabeth II’s visit to Dublin last year, than anything else. At any rate, McGuinness himself seemed keen to dispel any doubts. When asked by a journalist how he thought the meeting had gone, he replied, “It went well. I’m still a republican”.

In Scotland, the SNP’s current policy of keeping the Queen as head of state after independence illustrates the cultural gulf which exists between the two nationalist movements either side of the Irish sea. But that’s not to say they exist in isolation from one another. On the contrary, the Scottish constitutional debate is being watched with great interest by politicians across Ulster. So how might Scottish independence - or the threat of Scottish independence - affect the political situation in Northern Ireland?

To begin with, it seems unlikely that the break-up of the Anglo-Scottish Union would bring Sinn Fein’s dream of a united Ireland any closer to realisation. Despite its being the largest nationalist party at the Stormont Assembly for nearly a decade and steadily increasing its share of the vote at Irish parliamentary elections, support for a 32-county Ireland remains remarkably low. The most recent Northern Ireland Life and Times Survey, an authoritative account of political attitudes in the north, shows that 73 per cent of the Ulster electorate as a whole wants to remain part of the UK, with 52 per cent of Catholic voters content to maintain the union with Britain. (The figure for Protestants is 96 per cent.)  A number of factors have eroded republican sentiment in recent years: economic crisis and austerity in the south, the growing indifference of the Dublin political class to the all-Ireland project, the emergence of a northern Catholic middle-class, much of which is employed in a public sector widely assumed to be dependent on British state subsidies.
 
Peter Geoghegan, the Irish editor of Edinburgh-based current affairs magazine Political Insight, thinks the advent of Scottish independence won’t act as a catalyst for Irish reunification but could bring fresh life to the debate about Northern Ireland’s constitutional future. “The Belfast Agreement is basically a holding position,” he says, “a settlement which will stand until a majority doesn’t want it to stand anymore and we get something else. Despite some procedural problems at Stormont, that idea has held pretty stable for the last ten years. But what’s happening in Scotland has the potential, in the long-run, to change that - to provoke a debate about where Northern Ireland is going which has been silent for too long.”
 
Sinn Fein keeps quiet on the issue of Scottish self-determination, but privately its leadership is thinking along similar lines. Earlier this year, McGuinness announced plans to hold a vote on Irish reunification at some point during the next Assembly session, possibly as soon as 2016. Geoghegan explains this as part of a broader strategy to reinvigorate the republican movement in Ireland: “Both emboldened and envious of the SNP’s recent success, Sinn Fein wants to capitalise on the new, more fluid approach towards the UK’s constitutional arrangements by putting the issue of Irish unity firmly on the political agenda…That’s the driving logic.”
 
McGuinness’s announcement also represents a nod to the more radical elements in the republican community, who claim Sinn Fein has compromised too much with the forces of unionism in the last decade. The persistence of armed splinter groups like the Real IRA suggests a hard-core of republican activists angry at the party’s apparent drift into the mainstream. As the centenary of the 1916 Easter Rising approaches, their demands for more progress towards a united Ireland are likely to grow louder and louder.
 
Intriguingly, it is in this context that Scottish independence could have the greatest impact on Irish and Northern Irish politics. By showing how democratic and parliamentary means can be used to secure sweeping constitutional change, nationalism in Scotland could help finish off the last remnants of republican paramilitarism. Owen Dudley Edwards, an Irish-born Edinburgh historian, elaborates this idea: “Sinn Fein’s nationalism is completely and absolutely different from the SNP’s - it’s the difference between a nationalism which has evolved constitutionally and a nationalism which has evolved from the gun. Nonetheless, the success of constitutional nationalism in Scotland would echo all over the world as an example of the effectiveness of non-violence. The tradition says that St Patrick came from Scotland to civilise the Irish, and I’m perfectly happy to welcome St Alex Salmond from Scotland to civilise us Irish again.”
 
If the prospect of Scotland leaving the UK excites the republican imagination, it haunts the unionist one - or parts of it at least. In January, Tom Elliot, then leader of the Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) - until 2003 the dominant unionist party in Northern Ireland - launched a highly charged attack on the SNP, accusing Alex Salmond of “posing a greater threat to the Union than the violence of the IRA”. This was followed shortly after by an equally provocative intervention from one of Elliot’s predecessors, Lord Empey, who warned that Scottish secession could push Ulster back into conflict: “I don't wish to exaggerate,” he said, “but if the Scottish nationalists were to succeed it could possibly reignite the difficulties we have just managed to overcome.” These were appropriate sentiments from a party now married to the British Conservatives.

But Mike Nesbitt, Elliot’s successor as UUP leader, seems less agitated by the advance of Scottish nationalism. Speaking to the New Statesman shortly before he was elected in March, he dismissed the notion that victory for the SNP in the 2014 referendum could spark a return to the Troubles: “I think we’re settled. We’ve been through 40 years of needless violence, we’ve lost 3,500 lives, for no good reason. In 2007 all the political parties came to this (power-sharing) project ready to do a deal together. So these institutions are here to stay, and we will not be taking a backward step.” Nesbitt added that during a prolonged economic downturn, Scotland’s constitutional status is not likely to rank high on the list of priorities for working-class loyalist communities: “The loyalist elements in this country are pretty focused on looking at what happens here … I don’t think they have a particular focus on whether Scotland goes for devo-max or goes for independence - they’re concerned about day-to-day living, which is not easy.”

Yet the dissolution of the Union between Scotland and England might force Northern Irish unionists to reconsider their relationship with the rest of the UK. After all, it is to Scotland - not England or Wales - that many of them feel the greatest religious and cultural affinity. If Scotland strikes out on its own, with whom (or what) would they be in union?

Dudley Edwards believes Scottish independence has the potential to aggravate the separatist streak in Paisleyite unionism which has lain dormant in recent years: “Objectively speaking there was always an assumption in Paisleyism that maybe someday Northern Ireland might find it better to go independent. Paisley himself detested the liberalism and liberality of English life. London can look a very hedonistic society and when he went to Westminster in 1970 it was Sodom and Gomorrah, so from time to time he has uttered statements about Ulster possibly going it alone. In this sense, Ulster might look more attractive outside a UK without Scotland.”

Not that separation is a realistic political (or probably economic) option for the Six Counties: support for Northern Irish independence registers in the single digits. But were it to stay part of a truncated UK, ties between Belfast and Westminster could grow increasingly strained, particularly if Paisley’s Democratic Unionist Party consolidates its control of unionism’s electoral landscape.

This is how Barry McElduff, Sinn Fein Assembly Member for West Tyrone, sees things playing out. He anticipates that Scottish independence would relegate Northern Ireland (together with Wales) to the status of poor relation in a multinational partnership defined almost exclusively by English majority interests. “If Scotland breaks away from the Union, then the Union is no longer what it was,” he told the New Statesman in a meeting at Stormont in February. “Will we be in a union with London? Even for unionists that’s not a very attractive proposition because in any partnership with London your needs will be always be very peripheral.” In fact, McElduff thinks the Scottish constitutional debate is already provoking a crisis of identity in Ulster unionism: “All the old certainties are gone. The notion of a union between England, Scotland, Wales and the north of Ireland is disappearing. WB Yeats wrote a poem about Easter 1916 and he used the phrase ‘Everything has changed, changed utterly’. I think Scotland has changed, changed utterly. And the destination of this new journey is completely unknown. As a result the unionists are suffering greatly.”

In one sense McElduff is absolutely right: Scottish political culture is evolving rapidly and in unpredictable ways. It remains to be seen to what extent Northern Ireland and the other component parts of the United Kingdom will evolve along with it - or, as may be the case, without it.

37 comments

Shay's picture

St Patrick was a welsh man taken by vikings to Ireland as a slave.

Goji's picture

Nice article..... interesting.
Goji Goji fructe goji

New Stateswoman's picture

Look up Planet Nibiru - heading this way

Sam England's picture

Haha Scottish independence suits me fine being english myself i feel it will be a weight of our shoulders no more paying out to the scots they will have to stand on their own two feet without our hand outs. They will soon come crawling back they have no clue no idea and no hope without our money scotland bring nearly nothing to the UK eccomony other than fried mars bars and haggis.

Dave Coull's picture

You really are a remarkably ignorant individual. The myth of Scots being "subsidized" has been conclusively dis-proved in countless surveys and refuted in loads of articles including at least one right here in the New Statesman.

little england bigot's picture

Seriously though,,,, as Stuart Eels points out, very few people in the sunny south have any interest in Northern Ireland, and would be glad if the place could just disappear off into the Atlantic. The prob is that given the long historical links between Ulster and the West of Scotland, a lot of people in the Glasgow area care passionately (either for one side or the other) It has always amazed me that full scale sectarian warfare never spread to Glasgow, especially during the Seventies. If Scotland were to become totally independent (which I doubt it would) what would happen to Ulster? Independence? Join the South? Be part of a Union in which no one wanted em? It's a problem. I remember one Scots Nat student enthusiast activist years ago at the Uni of Edinburgh about this: he said "Christ, you English are welcome to them." - I don't however think this attitude is universal among the Nats.

Traditionally, the Tories north of the border were seen rightly or wrongly as the Orange Party, who would give the Catholics nothing. 85-90% of west of Scotland Catholics voted Labour, from the doctor to the docker. It is a reflection of how much things have changed in that regard that Liam Fox was ableto end up as a Tory minister. 4o yrs ago, for a Glasgow Catholic called Liam to even have been a member of the Tories would have been considered astonishing. Traditionally, the Glasgow Catholics regarded the Nats as even more Orange than the Tories: as a bunch of lunatic sectarian presbetyrian hillbillies (which they mainly were in the fifties and sixties) The general attitude was that they would set up an Edinburgh Stormont if they got into power. It would be interesting to see how many Catholic Scots vote SNP. Not many, I suspect, even today.

Dave Coull's picture

There are members of the board of Celtic Football Club who sing Irish Republican songs and yet oppose independence for Scotland. There are supporters of Glasgow Rangers who are no friends of Irish Republicanism and who enthusiastically support independence for Scotland. But the while "Old Firm", both Celtic and Rangers supporters, only adds up to a relatively small minority of the population of Scotland. The fact is, for most of us, religious affiliation has little to do with whether we support or oppose independence. So far as Northern Ireland is concerned - not our problem. One thing that not just the SNP but ALL organisations seeking independence for Scotland agree on is that the territory for which they are seeking independence is the territory where Scottish Law applies, and has applied for centuries: no territorial claim on Berwick, and no territorial claim on Ulster. We are seeking independence from the rest of the UK, and that means from Wales and Northern Ireland as well as from England.

who cares's picture

prob is that about 10% of Scotland are English born: and by the same token, there are over a million Scots in England, and probably another million 2nd gen. Should Alex Ferguson have a vote?

little england bigot's picture

The Jocks will come crawling back. How else are they gonna keep emselelves in Buckfast and deep fried mars bars?

O's picture

um, for a start St Patrick came from Wales not Scotland.

There may well be a more useful realignment tho' which reflects closer historical and cultural links.

For example a 'Celtic Britain' consisting of Scotland and Ulster, together with Wales and even Cornwall. Although it's more doubtful whether Eire would want to asocaite itself with anything nominally British.

England would 'revert' to its more natural position, which as a Londoner and pro-European I'd support, if only for the sake of us Englishers waking up to our longer term connection with the continent.

Overall, yes wishful thinking, but a pretty inversion of the Anglocentric status quo!

Dave Coull's picture

There's no certainty where St Patrick came from. He himself said that his father was a Roman official, and he probably spoke a language similar to Welsh as well as Latin, but both of these things could have been just as true on the banks of the Clyde. As for your "Celtic Britain" re-alignment, dream on. The chances of an independent Scotland being interested in such a "re-alignment" are zero. The claim of independence is for the territory where Scottish Law applies, and has applied for centuries. That has never at any time included Ulster, or any other part of Ireland, or Wales, or Cornwall. In becoming independent, Scotland will be becoming independent from all of these places, as well as from England.

O's picture

um, for a start St Patrick came from Wales not Scotland.

There may well be a more useful realignment tho' which reflects closer historical and cultural links.

For example a 'Celtic Britain' consisting of Scotland and Ulster, together with Wales and even Cornwall. Although it's more doubtful whether Eire would want to asocaite itself with anything nominally British.

England would 'revert' to its more natural position, which as a Londoner and pro-European I'd support, if only for the sake of us Englishers waking up to our longer term connection with the continent.

Overall, yes wishful thinking, but a pretty inversion of the Anglocentric status quo!

Dave Coull's picture

There's no certainty where St Patrick came from. He himself said that his father was a Roman official, and he probably spoke a language similar to Welsh as well as Latin, but both of these things could have been just as true on the banks of the Clyde. As for your "Celtic Britain" re-alignment, dream on. The chances of an independent Scotland being interested in such a "re-alignment" are zero. The claim of independence is for the territory where Scottish Law applies, and has applied for centuries. That has never at any time included Ulster, or any other part of Ireland, or Wales, or Cornwall. In becoming independent, Scotland will be becoming independent from all of these places, as well as from England.

Stuart Eels's picture

Ah Robert Taggart, always game for a laugh. The English Democrats, would that be The English Democrats who formed an "Alliance for Democracy" with all the right wing garbage they could stir into action at the last elections? Why I have even been told that the great Democrat demigod Steve Uncles tried to form an alliance with the IRA. The English Democrats whose ranks are now full of ex BNP members.

Robert Taggart, you will never find a more committed Englishman than myself but I'd actively campaign against any English Democrat who were to stand in my area, if The English Democrats are the future of Engand, God help us!

Anyone reading these blogs who doesn't believe me, just look it up on the internet,The English Democrats, Steve Uncles, Robin Tilbrook and open democracy.

Going back to the original article, I see nothing being offered to the English yet again. I don't really care about Northern Ireland and sadly nor do anyone who I know from the South.

Robert Taggart's picture

Oh Stued Eels...
Oneself has never looked into The English Democrats, but, unlike most of the 'ignoranti' of this country - one does at least know they exist !

Joe E's picture

Freedom in Fourteen. Goodbye, England. Goodbye, North East Ulster.

Alex Asher's picture

Don't go getting English hopes up - the opinion polls are not looking good for independence.

Ayrshireman's picture

As a protestant Co Antrim man living in Scotland since 1997, I see the idea of Scottish independence as being a great game changer, and one which I wholeheartedly support. It will fundamentally shake the unionist identity in Northern Ireland, undoubtedly, and I suspect that the idea of an independent NI versus an all Ireland reunion will become a vigorous debate soon after. However, sandwiched between two independent states on either side with which it shares its strongest cultural affinities can actually be a real blessing, because NI will have two powerful advocates on either side and great opportunities ahead. I think you'll also find the Council of the Isles will in some way become a much stronger forum for co-operation between the various states of the British Isles also, so NI may not be quite so isolated.

Irish's picture

If Scotland gains independence, northern Ireland can be partitioned between the Republic of Ireland (Catholics) and Kingdom of Scotland (Protestants).

Dave Coull's picture

Not going to happen. Such a move would have no support in Scotland. One thing which not just the SNP but ALL movements and organisations seeking independence for Scotland have in common is that NONE of them make any claim on a single square inch of the island of Ireland - indeed, completely the opposite. They are all seeking independence for the territory where Scottish Law applies and has applied for centuuries. That has never included any part of Ireland. We are seeking independence from Northern Ireland and Wales as well as from England.

R Sheehan's picture

Ah, independence is step 1. Step 2 will have to be reparations to the tunes of trillions from the English murder-state.

DisgruntledReaderNS's picture

I wonder why the New Statesman chose to use statements from Owen Dudley Edwards, member of an infamous Revisionist movement whose sole (declared) intention was to delegitimise Provisional IRA violence; this type of manipulation of history was widely discredited in Ireland and most of Dudley Edwards assertions have been disproven by more responsible historians in Ireland. Infact, aside from a small, albeit vocal, cohort of 'historians' Revisionist history has little or no currency in historical thought or within academia. Now, if the NS wants to suggest that his inclusion was for the purposes of objectivitity I wonder why more mainstream historians weren't also consulted.

It strikes me as strange that the NS is collobarating with Ireland's answer to a Tory!

DisgruntledReaderNS's picture

I wonder why the New Statesman chose to use statements from Owen Dudley Edwards, member of an infamous Revisionist movement whose sole (declared) intention was to delegitimise Provisional IRA violence; this type of manipulation of history was widely discredited in Ireland and most of Dudley Edwards assertions have been disproven by more responsible historians in Ireland. Infact, aside from a small, albeit vocal, cohort of 'historians' Revisionist history has little or no currency in historical thought or within academia. Now, if the NS wants to suggest that his inclusion was for the purposes of objectivitity I wonder why more mainstream historians weren't also consulted.

It strikes me as strange that the NS is collobarating with Ireland's answer to a Tory!

DisgruntledReaderNS's picture

I wonder why the New Statesman chose to use statements from Owen Dudley Edwards, member of an infamous Revisionist movement whose sole (declared) intention was to delegitimise Provisional IRA violence; this type of manipulation of history was widely discredited in Ireland and most of Dudley Edwards assertions have been disproven by more responsible historians in Ireland. Infact, aside from a small, albeit vocal, cohort of 'historians' Revisionist history has little or no currency in historical thought or within academia. Now, if the NS wants to suggest that his inclusion was for the purposes of objectivitity I wonder why more mainstream historians weren't also consulted.

It strikes me as strange that the NS is collobarating with Ireland's answer to a Tory!

Kevin Mullen's picture

The only reason the SNP want to keep the queen as head of state is because they know that the people of Scotland won't vote for "The Republic of Scotland" (Scotland would be a republic without a monarch as head of state).

The Independent Kingdom of Scotland is much more romantic. Lets face it: Salmond's SNP MPs stand up in parliament every year and cross their fingers as they take the oath of allegiance to the queen. They don't really want the queen as head of state - only if it increases their chances of gaining independence, which it does.

Robert Taggart's picture

Independence for England - NOW - PLEASE !

An independent Ulster would surely have to embrace Europe - in order to remain solvent !

The European Union - the Unionists new cause ?!

Dave Coull's picture

It doesn't work like that. In order to gain independence, you first have to create an independence movement and campaign for independence over quite some time. That simply hasn't happened in England.

Alex Asher's picture

With you there. A ComRes poll for BBC R4 last year suggested that 36% of English people already want independence for England rising to 50% among 'C2s'. Whether those figures are accurate or not the desire for independence is definitely on the rise. But still the establishment media can't even discuss English issues. Lots of English are wishing the SNP well.

Robert Taggart's picture

Good to hear.
Just curious, to which alpha-numeric category does this 'State Sponsored' Scrounger belong ?!

Benjamin Rae's picture

Whilst I support English independence I'm not that sure why people keep putting that on Scottish independence articles as if it's somehow Scotland's fault

Robert Taggart's picture

Because it be only the Scotties independence calls which anyone be noticing !
Given the opportunity...

Ellie's picture

Well.....you could try getting yourselves organised, found an English Independence or Nationalist Party, produce a manifesto, stand for elections at all levels and then work to promote your views of the future of England to the electorate until such a time as you cannot be ignored......just like the SNP did in Scotland.

The SNP - for all their faults (which there are many) - did not accept being ignored, they did not accept that they couldn't change things, and they didn't wait for someone else to do it for them.

Ellie's picture

Well.....you could try getting yourselves organised, found an English Independence or Nationalist Party, produce a manifesto, stand for elections at all levels and then work to promote your views of the future of England to the electorate until such a time as you cannot be ignored......just like the SNP did in Scotland.

The SNP - for all their faults (which there are many) - did not accept being ignored, they did not accept that they couldn't change things, and they didn't wait for someone else to do it for them.

Robert Taggart's picture

There be just such a party - The English Democrats.
Alas, they be new to this game, and, given our electoral system - it will take them decades to even be heard !
Their Celtic equivalents could testify to that.

Ellie's picture

Unfortunately that's a problem English nationalists are going to have to face. It took the SNP around 60 years to get from a minority fringe group to where they are today, if the support for independence is as suggested by these polls then they may be able to shorten the period, however they need to build from the ground up, an activist base, local councillors etc.

It was a lot of hard work by generations who passionately believed in Scottish Independence which have delivered the referendum, if English nationalists feel the same then they too will have to put the work in to gain the rewards.

Robert Taggart's picture

Indeed, or...
England could attain independence - by default !...
First Scotland, then Wales ? as for Ulster - doh ! not mention Kernow / Cornwall !!

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