Nelson Jones

Belief, disbelief and beyond belief

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Face to Faiths

How do we maintain a cohesive society with increasingly few shared beliefs and assumptions?

New Statesman
Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester, debated religious freedom as part of the Westminster Faith Debates. Photograph: Getty Images.

Today sees the last in the series of Westminster Faith Debates, which have been going on since February at the Royal United Services Institute in Whitehall. Organised by Lancaster University and the think-tank Theos and chaired by Charles Clarke, the former cabinet minister, the sessions have explored various aspects of the intersection of religion and politics, from the place of religious education in schools to the highly controversial role of faith-based initiatives in plugging the increasingly obvious holes in the welfare system.

The debates have brought together social scientists with politicians, media pundits and religious leaders.  Speakers have included Trevor Phillips, Richard Dawkins, Rabbi Julia Neuberger and the New Statesman's own Mehdi Hasan.  Elizabeth Hunter, the director of Theos, told me that for her the best element of the series has been the breadth of the audience.  "We've filled the room with committed, interested people of all faiths and no faith," she says.  "It's been unusually diverse and engaged, which has meant the Q and As have been lively and often challenging."

Hunter singled out last month's debate on religious freedom, which featured  Michael Nazir Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester, and Lisa Appignanesi among others, as her own personal highlight:  "We had a real range of opinions on the panel, and indeed in the audience, but the discussion was serious, not consensual, but civil. So many people said to be afterwards that it was the best thing they've seen on the subject. Most of the public conversation about religious freedom and equality descends into tribal mudslinging and this was very different."

The debates were certainly well-timed.  The first four months of the year have witnessed an extraordinary cranking-up of tension, at least in terms of the public debate around religion and society.  The tone was set during that remarkable week in February when Baroness Warsi went to the Vatican to warn the Pope about militant secularism while Richard Dawkins, highlighting research that suggested declining religious literacy even among professed believers, memorably fluffed a challenge from Dr Giles Fraser to recall the full title of The Origin of Species

This past week has seen more of the same, with the British Humanist Association extending its campaign against faith schools and Catholic educators under fire for (as they see it) defending the traditional understanding of marriage.  In between we've had rows about proposed "gay cure" bus adverts, the legality of council prayers  and the future of the bishops in a reformed House of Lords.

Why is all this happening now? It's common to date the current, fevered debate on the place of faith in modern Britain to the fallout from 9/11 or, beyond that, to the Rushdie affair of the late 1980s.  But both those traumatic events are beginning to recede into history.  Both "offence" and terrorism remain big, unresolved issues but the focus today is less dramatic and more fundamental: it's about how to maintain a cohesive society with increasingly few shared beliefs and assumptions.

The first Westminster debate, back in February, raised the issue of "superdiversity" which goes to the heart of the issue.  Under the principle of "diversity", which forms the basis of much recent legislation (notably the 2010 Equality Act) people claim rights as members of communities, whether defined by reference to their ethnicity, their sexuality, their physical capacity or their religious adherence. 

This makes things nice and simple for lawmakers and the courts, even if it gives endless scope for litigation and encourages something of a grievance culture.  But it's a blunt instrument, and outdated even as the ink was drying on the last piece of legislation.  People have multiple identities, which change through life and may find themselves in tension even within the same individual.  Religion is one way in which people define themselves.  For some it is of supreme importance, for others it's peripheral, or others still it is (as the Facebook status offers) "complicated."  One size does not fit all.  Everyone is, to some extent, their own "community".

In her presentation tonight on the subject of current trends, Professor Linda Woodhead of Lancaster University (who has been leading the debates) will argue that what we call religion has changed dramatically in recent years.  Whereas it was once bound up with local and national community it has become something individual and individually chosen.  It's no longer "a matter of belonging to a clerically-led community, affirming unchanging dogma and holding conservative social attitudes".  Claims by "male leaders to represent religious communities are more tenuous than before."  It's all about "associating with like-minded people through real or virtual networks". 

Yet if religious diversity is just another manifestation of modern capitalist consumerism, as such a view would imply, why does it remain so politically, and personally, charged?  And take the ultimate hierarchical, clerically-led and dogma-affirming religious institution, the Roman Catholic Church.  Under pressure it might be, but it is precisely those features that Woodhead singles out as problematic that self-identifying (rather than merely cultural) Catholics find most attractive and that are growing.  There has recently been a small increase in the number of women training to be nuns, for example, and younger nuns are more likely to join traditional, habit-wearing convents than the more liberal orders whose American leaders have recently annoyed the Vatican.

What I would want to say, contrary to Woodhead's rather optimistic conclusions, is that religion has very little to do with personal spirituality, although it has traditionally been the main vehicle through which personal spirituality is expressed.  Far more central, historically, has been its role as a mechanism of group cohesion, as a social glue and as a source of communal morality.  That's why it has always been closely involved with politics, and perhaps why the decline of formal religious observance has coincided with a similar decline in membership of political parties, voting and faith in the political process as a whole. 

In religion as in politics, what is left when most ordinary people get bored is a hard core of committed and slightly obsessive activists -- moderates as well as extremists, by the way, scoffers as well as true believers.  When the enthusiasts on all sides no longer represent a social consensus or a mass activity, the debates get more, not less, heated.

Nevertheless, as Hunter says, religion still is and will continue to be central to many people's lives. "If we don't engage and understand it, if we're not willing to really listen and have serious conversations about how we live together well then we're all in trouble."  Recent months have demonstrated that beyond all doubt.

20 comments

charlie hearns's picture

Seems as if a chasm between religions and true worship is widening more. It is difficult to understand how all the religions leads to a same path. charlie hearns

jankaas's picture

just to add a bit of reality. we know humans are a deeply irrational animal. it seems part and parcel of our evolved nature. so rather than imagining humans will somehow become rational we should instead focus on limiting the influence of specific irrational groups on the whole of society. we could make a good start by designing public policy based on evidence based reasoning rather than resorting to ontologies, whether natural or supernatural.

AndrewR's picture

It goes without saying, I'm not sure anyone suggested otherwise.

jankaas's picture

fair do's though perhaps this is because your POV seems a close match of mine. the only 'faith' i have is in methodological naturalism (i.e. experimental evidence). i don't care for ontologies, and have ditched my preferred natural ontology, by which i mean the one peddled by Dawkins, Harris etc.
but as i don't have a specific point to raise with you i guess i'd best stop typing.
ttfn

AndrewR's picture

“Richard Dawkins, highlighting research that suggested declining religious literacy even among professed believers, memorably fluffed a challenge from Dr Giles Fraser to recall the full title of The Origin of Species.”

I have to ask, what is memorable about a memory lapse? If this had been the most interesting incident to come out of the debate between Dr Fraser and Dr Dawkins it would have been dull indeed. The fact is, it wasn’t. It is just indicative of the petty smoke machine which is wheeled out every time the religious are met with a string of irrefutable arguments in the face of their faith. Rather than put forward a decent rebuttable (which frankly, I have yet to hear) they pounce on the minutest example of weakness on the other side – in this case, forgetting the title of a book. This should never pass for argument in front of an educated audience and the fact that it was given so much media time is demonstrative of the sensation over substance attitude to journalism that is peddled in our media today.

“Militant Secularism”, same sex marriage, “gay cure”, “faith schools”, (unelected) “bishops in a reformed house of Lords”: the fact that I live in a society where these issues constitute an agenda makes me weary at best and disgusted and angry at worst. Is it not about time we, as a species collectively unshackled ourselves from the ball and chain of dogmatism and took off the blinkers of a tunnel vision adherence to tradition? Is it not within our capabilities as a society to recognize our commonalities and work together to solve the greater problems we face? We waste time and we cower in the shadow of our potential when we entertain arguments which, at best lack substance, and at worst are truly divisive, absurd, and flat out immoral. The separation of church and state would enable us to ignore those who would be offended by a stance which they cannot possibly defend against.

Who on this forum will tell me that militant secularism is comparable with militant jihad or the Ku Klux Klan or Nazism or the Inquisition? Since when have the religious had a monopoly on love, a monopoly of devotion? Who can keep a straight face and tell me that love of any kind is an abomination and that we should listen to individuals or groups who hate those whose expression of love is not of their liking. How can love be comparable to a disease? How can anyone put forward anything as disgusting as a cure for love and be morally serious? Have any of you noticed what happens when children are divided along lines of faith and how one generations hate can be passed on from father to son, mother to daughter. Does no one recall Northern Ireland? Do we want to live in a world balkanized by religious fervency propagated from the toddler to the teenager so fully formed “other haters”; “other fearers” emerge at adulthood. Do we wish to live in a democracy or not? A government elected to represent the people. Why do these bishops sit in the public arena uninvited?

“In her presentation tonight on the subject of current trends, Professor Linda Woodhead of Lancaster University (who has been leading the debates) will argue that what we call religion has changed dramatically in recent years. Whereas it was once bound up with local and national community it has become something individual and individually chosen. It's no longer "a matter of belonging to a clerically-led community, affirming unchanging dogma and holding conservative social attitudes". Claims by "male leaders to represent religious communities are more tenuous than before." It's all about "associating with like-minded people through real or virtual networks".”

Well good! If only it were true but let us, for a moment, assume that it is. Who do we give credit to for this shift from a “clerically led community, affirming unchanging dogma and holding conservative social attitudes” to a more individual, benign version of faith? Religion? I don’t think so, not on my watch. It is the ever changing zeitgeist, the “hammer blows of modernity”, (Sam Harris) the refusal to adhere to clerical bullying and inquisition and persecution which has led more and more people to dare to think for themselves. There is still the problem that many of these “individuals” still associate with one denomination or another but this appears to be for reasons which are “other” to the dogmas of that particular denomination (a sense of belonging, community etc.). I would agree that secular equivalents are hard to come by. The public house and the football/cricket/rugby stadium, the music arena and the festival hold glimpses of an alternative, though they are certainly only partial.

“Yet if religious diversity is just another manifestation of modern capitalist consumerism, as such a view would imply, why does it remain so politically, and personally, charged?”

I do not think that such a view does imply a manifestation of modern capitalist consumerism as it goes. There have always been people who rejected the pure dogma of an institution such as the Catholic Church and it is simply easier for those individuals to be vocal about it – again, mainly thanks to secularism and the diminishing power of the church. Jefferson’s Bible would be a sound example but anyone who has ever begun a new denomination of any faith has essentially put their individual stamp on it. Why does religious diversity remain so politically, and personally, charged? Simple enough to answer – the religious have never been able to keep it to themselves; it is rarely just personal, it is rarely simply individual.

“"If we don't engage and understand it, if we're not willing to really listen and have serious conversations about how we live together well then we're all in trouble." Recent months have demonstrated that beyond all doubt.”

Liberalist piffle! I’m sorry, I have read the holy books, and I have discussed religion with the religious and the apologists ad nauseam. I get it, I understand it and as far as I am concerned the only seriousness conversation to be had is how we limit those who hold absurd and often evil beliefs from public influence and how we educate people out of supernatural subservience and into a state where they can begin to think for themselves. This is how universally reasonable discourse is achieved. We’re all in trouble already and if we do not realize that soon we will never begin to rise to our full height and progress as a species.

John Cheese's picture

Wait long enough & every people group will choose to act beastly... we all circle the drain of sub-human-ness... Pretty depressing! La-Di-Da "serious" discussions about Metaphysics, entology & natural goodness help no one. People do tend to forget the non-Christian morally "good" people pretty quickly...Scientists have a long way to go to explaining human nature!

Keir's picture

'There have always been people who rejected the pure dogma of an institution such as the Catholic Church and it is simply easier for those individuals to be vocal about it – again, mainly thanks to secularism and the diminishing power of the church.'

Thanks to Protestantism, that gave you the right to express tedious dinosaur views.

AndrewR's picture

Anything else? a counter agument?

Keir's picture

Try another forum.

AndrewR's picture

If a forum exists where ad hominem attacks trump arguments of subtance I'm not interested.

Keir's picture

'arguments of subtance'

You could try stand-up, if you practise.

AndrewR's picture

There comes a point where someone's comments simply become self-defeating, particularly when accessible on a public forum where everone is free to read them. A cheap insult adds absolutely nothing to the conversation and I am certain that you have more to offer than this in way of rebuttal.

Robert Taggart's picture

Oneself has 'fluffed our line' - ON the Origin of species - too many times to recall.
Still a believer (Darwinism / Dawkins-ism?) mind !

Robert Taggart's picture

Dawkinsia - the 'faith' of the atheist !
If only people could be persuaded to drop their blind faith in the supernatural - reason could triumph.
Result ? - Result ! A more 'reasonable' society.

Keir's picture

If the results of faith are kindness, patience, reliability, self-control, humility, peaceability, generosity and compassion, how would reason improve on them?

AndrewR's picture

If the results of faith are intolerance, hatred, arrogance, selfishness, dishonesty, racism, fear, irrationality, segregation, inequality, and persecution how would reason improve on them?

Come on, be serious, anyone can play that game with any list of attributes. Ask yourself this - do you think it more likely that good ideas about the way we should live would come out of a conversation revolving around faith or reason? And what do you mean by faith - faith in people, faith in oneself, or faith in the un-falsifiable propositions?

Keir's picture

'If the results of faith are intolerance, hatred, arrogance, selfishness, dishonesty, racism, fear, irrationality, segregation, inequality, and persecution how would reason improve on them?

In that case, reason would rather obviously indicate that one has not even got close to identifying the right faith. Reason might even suspect that the right faith is being desperately evaded. One might suppose that kindness, patience, reliability, self-control, humility, peaceability, generosity and compassion are not as welcome as might be expected.

Human nature tends to demand kindness, patience, reliability, self-control, humility, peaceability, generosity and compassion in others, but not in oneself. Perhaps no progress can be made before human nature is recognised and admitted.

'do you think it more likely that good ideas about the way we should live would come out of a conversation revolving around faith or reason?'

I think it's incorrect, usually culpably, to make that polarity. Faith may be based on reason, on intellectual conviction. Faith may be commitment of the will, not the intellect.

It's very disappointing, if not unexpected, that in response to a suggestion that a working model for agreement is adopted, skeptics continue to roll out the same failed and fallacious arguments and bile as before.

AndrewR's picture

If the results of Human Nature are kindness, patience, reliability, self-control, humility, peaceability, generosity, compassion, intolerance, hatred, arrogance, selfishness, dishonesty, racism, fear, irrationality, segregation, inequality, and persecution how do we counter the negative aspects of our nature?

“I think it's incorrect, usually culpably, to make that polarity. Faith may be based on reason, on intellectual conviction. Faith may be commitment of the will, not the intellect.”

I’m sorry but it was you, sir, who implied such a polarity in the first place. See below -

“If the results of faith are kindness, patience, reliability, self-control, humility, peaceability, generosity and compassion, how would reason improve on them?”

Furthermore, when has the above ever been achieved by a society exclusive of any of the negative traits I have offered? It is far easier to find examples where faith (certainly the dogmatic variety) has been actively detrimental to a society than where the opposite is the case. I am still interested to know what you really mean by faith. You say faith may be based on reason – well in that case you cannot possibly say it is explicitly faith, given the driving force is reason. Your second comment that “Faith may be a commitment of the will, not the intellect” is white noise to anyone reading it. If you had said instinct or intuition I may have lent the comment more credence. Let us take some simple definitions of the term faith. I always find this helps in discussion.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Definition 1 echoes, I think, your first comment, but as I said this still relies on a prerequisite of reason to reach this position of belief. Definition 3 and 6 requires the same prerequisite to be achieved. This is a forum on religion though so you can continue to play an elaborate game of hide the ball by suggesting obscure definitions of faith or you can state you position plainly. Are you an advocate of religious faith or not because, I am afraid there is a distinction between beliefs based on reason and beliefs based on ontology or dogma/tautologies.

All beliefs are essentially an individual’s attempt to graft truth on to the world but some beliefs are easier to defend than others, such as when they can be reasoned. Are you an advocate of the faith in definitions 1,3 and 6 or do you base your faith in the guises of 2,4 and 5? Faith, as we have discovered, is something of a “suitcase” term and I feel we should attempt to unpack this if we are to have an honest discussion.

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