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31 comments from readers

obangobang
17 September 2009 at 13:07

Because the root of the problem lies in devolution, which if you recall, the Tories opposed from the outset. The New Labour government nakedly pursued party interests in steamrollering through a badly conceived constitutional settlement without giving any real thought to the obvious conflicts that would arise thereafter. After all, Holyrood was only going to be a glorified "Parish Council".

Aye, right.

Now Labour faces generations in opposition in England if, as is likely, the Tories become the SNP's recruiting sergeant, and the proposed referendum in 2010 starts to look like being a much closer run thing than many would care to admit.

And you want to blame someone else.

Utterly typical.

tally
17 September 2009 at 13:51

There was no doubt electoral mileage for New Labour playing politics with the Union when they thought that Scotland would be forever Labour with devolution.New Labour fostered a narrow Scottish and anti English nationalism to suit their own ends.

They then tried to turn England against itself with regional assemblies and promoted a nasty and bigoted anti Southern English agenda to try and win the NE assembly vote in 2004.

Most Scottish New Labour MP's including Brown, signed the Scottish claim of right and swore an oath to put Scotland first and foremost in every thing they did. These Scottish MP's voting on English affairs are not unionists but nationalists and have no businness tinkering with England.

James
17 September 2009 at 13:52

Um, sorry "obangobang", but if you call this "utterly typical" that implies you have read other articles I've done, including this one - http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2009/08/devolution-b... - in which I, er, blamed Labour for devolution.

TWTD
17 September 2009 at 13:53

Utter bile, defending the indefensible, signifying McLabour are increasingly worried, im sure Mclabour would never ever dream of putting the Yoo kays "interests" before their own either.

A Scotch infiltrated and dominated McLabour party, with the aid of Scotch and welsh voters, broke the "Union" up in all but name over a decade ago, into "Regions", on behalf of a foreign power in Brussels to rule.

The bad news is, there is not yet an English Parliament sitting in Westminster, but there will be.

F*ck the "Union".

-------------------------

[i]The Scots destroyed the Union

By Simon Heffer

Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 17/01/2007

I have been trying to remember the last time I felt British. It must be at least 15 years ago. Ironically, it was just before I wrote a book about one of the most British Scotsmen in history, Thomas Carlyle. Here was a man who, when writing from his home in Dumfriesshire, or from Edinburgh, completed his address not with "Scotland" but with "NB": North Britain. In early Victorian times we were, in the constitutional sense, one nation. But those days are gone, and may never return.

It was on happy visits to Edinburgh to research my book that I realised there was a problem. The academics who helped me could not have been more charming to this upstart Englishman who presumed to write about one of their most renowned figures. But I realised Scotland had become, since my youthful visits, a foreign country.

We English had bought into the Union completely. We had never batted an eyelid when Scotland sent its sons to govern us as prime minister. In my lifetime there had been Macmillan and Home, and in the decades before that Rosebery, Campbell-Bannerman, Balfour and the Ulster Scot Bonar Law. However, once the Scots were made, thanks to the evils of democracy, to be ruled by a radical Englishwoman, Margaret Thatcher, they seemed to decide that, after all, self-government might be better.

That was the mental state in which I found them in the early 1990s. Instinctively, I didn't blame them. None of us, realising a national identity of our own, wishes to be ruled by what we regard as a foreign power. One reason I regard Gladstone as one of our greatest leaders is that he realised, in the teeth of opposition from a bovine Tory party and from some of his supporters, the impossibility of coercing Ireland. I detected a movement in Scotland that would demand Home Rule: and since the notion of English troops enforcing the Union on the streets of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen was unthinkable, it occurred to me that they had better have it.

Factors other than Mrs Thatcher helped the Scots towards this new sensibility. They had not merely been England's partner in empire, they had led the drive for it: and once empire was over, the shared British project had rather less purpose to it. There was, though, one very strong reason to keep up membership, and that was the huge annual subsidy paid by the English to the Scots: around £11 billion currently. One reason Scotland hated Mrs Thatcher was that she was inimical to its addiction to welfarism.

So it was clear, even before Labour came to power in 1997, that a new accommodation would have to be reached. It may be an act of economic, strategic and political madness for the Scots to wish to break up the marital home: but grown-ups have to be allowed to make even the most awful mistakes, for they are often the only way of learning what is, indeed, sensible. Labour thought, though, that it had hit upon the ideal solution: a halfway house between marriage and divorce, a form of bigamy called "devolution". The old spouse remains at Westminster, deals with the big issues affecting the family, and pays most of the bills. The lover, though, is set up in luxury in Edinburgh, and is there to indulge those selfish little impulses that make one feel free of serious constraints.

Inevitably, though, the spouse's family, on learning of the arrangement, start to find reasons to dispute it: and when told that there can be no disputation, become resentful. Devolution was offered to the Scots in 1997. They accepted it. Their own parliament began work in 1999. It remains an ongoing mechanism to extract money from the English. The English have no say in how it is spent. The Scots, however, retain (through 59 MPs at Westminster) a say in how the money of English taxpayers is spent on English public services. This preposterous inequity has for eight years been shrugged off by Labour – English as well as Scots – and the English have now had enough.

Be in no doubt: the self-serving and meretricious argument Gordon Brown advanced in this newspaper last Saturday about the Union was designed purely to sustain his campaign to secure legitimacy for a Scotsman, sitting for a Scottish seat, being Prime Minister of England. Even before he can reach that eminence the Scots will hold a parliamentary election, on May 3, and the Scottish National Party may well win. If it does, it has promised a referendum on independence. Were such a plebiscite to succeed, Mr Brown would be finished – unless he could find a seat in England, or unless he scaled down his ambition and became leader of the opposition in the People's Republic of Scotland. Since running a bad-weather theme park, the Albania of Western Europe, is perhaps beneath him, no wonder he is pleading for the "Union".

Yet, as many of our readers have been quick to point out, he is the author of his own potential misfortune. He was prominent in the Cabinet that drove devolution, thinking the halfway house would satisfy everyone. He was warned it wouldn't but, as usual, he knew better. Those who have had a taste of power now want more of it – as I have written here before, genies are hard to put back in bottles. And those who are paying for it, and who are democratically disadvantaged by it – the English – are justly aggrieved, and wish to be governed on the same terms.

That is why to many English people "Britishness" means nothing other than a series of (often quite glorious) historical facts. "Britain", to me, is now simply a geographical entity. The English have not destroyed the Union: the Scots have, and that was their right. Mr Brown's piece reminded me of those rather sad and romantic old men with military moustaches who used to bang on about "The Empire" well into the 1960s. His banging on about "The Union" is every bit as anachronistic, and as futile. Whether out of blinkeredness, stupidity or cynicism, he simply doesn't realise what is going on in England or in his own country.

The process Labour started with devolution – a stupid piece of constitutional vandalism that is likely to have no equal in the history of these islands – now demands what psychologists call "closure". Scotland is overdue for its confrontation with reality. It is a grown-up nation, and cannot go on being the dependent relative. The English must be allowed the same democratic rights as the Scots. If this means there is never a Labour government at Westminster again, because of the loss of Scottish lobby-fodder, then that is a blow we shall just all have to learn to "bear".

In 1997, at the time of the referendum on devolution, the correct choice to offer – as Gladstone wanted to with the Irish in 1886 – was Home Rule. Did the Scots wish to be independent or not? But out of cowardice and self-preservation Labour did not give them that choice, preferring to set up inequalities and to bleed the English taxpayer white. That choice must now be put to the Scots again, to lance this boil and take the heat out of the growing resentment and anger of the English. And that is why, in my very humble opinion, all sensible Scots should vote SNP on May 3.[/i]

Matt London
17 September 2009 at 13:58

I'm probably being a bit thick, but all I can find

via the link you quote is Alastair Campbell (odd friends you have!) saying that DC acknowledges the problem people in England have about Scottish (and Welsh and NI, I guess) MPs voting on English-only issues when English MPs can't vote on Scottish (and I guess, Welsh and NI) only ones.

That doesn't imply any lack of concern for the Union - just an awareness of the damage that the Blair/Brown back of an envelope plus political spite approach to constitutional change has already done to the union.

QM
17 September 2009 at 14:01

You have the nerve to try and blame the Tories for patching up your botched devolution plans? It's not like you've left Cameron a lot of room to manoeuvre is it? Scotland and Wales were labour heartlands so you gave them devolution tinker toy parliaments to assert their freedom from the English and now it's come back to bite you in the arse. Labour destroyed the Union, no one else can be blamed for this, Cameron will try and pick up the pieces, but it's difficult to put a broken egg back together. To blame him for having to change his plans to deal with your mistakes is just political opportunism at its worst.

Fred Blogz
17 September 2009 at 14:10

What u-turn?

This article has me confused. Macintyre complains about Cameron's u-turn, but there is no quote, or indeed any other evidence, of the u-turn in question.

Terry
17 September 2009 at 14:23

Labour were warned that the half baked devolution settlement would break up the Union. John Major even campaigned "48 hours to save the Union". Labout didn't listen.

Now it is happening, Labour are blaming the Tories!

Classic, absolute classic!

John
17 September 2009 at 14:28

In life you reap what you sow, and the first seeds of all this were sown by the Labour Party.

Voting on English-only issues is a must, and I expect Scottish people would agree with this.

At the end of the day it is down to the Scottish people to vote for independence , not the British people, and are you saying if they vote for independence then Westminster should tell them they can't have it?

I do not think they will vote for independence, and it is just the Labour party getting it's knickers in a twist.

obangobang
17 September 2009 at 15:01

James

17 September 2009 at 13:52

What is "utterly typical", is Labour and its apologists blaming everything that goes wrong on someone else. Not only don't they have the wit to avoid the mistakes in the first place, they don't have the courage to face up to the consequences of their actions.

You refer to an article where you correctly identify the folly of Blair's devolution policy, written only a month or so ago, and yet in your article above make absolutely no mention of the correlation between the mess that is the current constitutional settlement and the likelihood that the Union will come under threat during the first term of the next (probably Tory) government. Presumably you are hoping, as the Crashmeister seems to, that most people are not intelligent enough to make the connection for themselves.

Simply because you have, correctly, identified the government's policy on constitutional change as being seriously flawed, doesn't give you cover to then transfer the blame for the ensuing chaos onto a third party.

James
17 September 2009 at 15:12

"obangobang" - As you correctly now recognise, I wrote only a month ago about Labour's betrayal of the Union with devolution, which I am in a small minority in thinking was a mistake. Now I have written about how the Tories are abandoning their historic commitment to the Union, in response. That seems like balance to me. There is no question of "cover", conspiracy or Labour apologism. I wish Tory blog posters would just grow up a bit.

I ALBION
17 September 2009 at 15:12

If what you say is true Mr. Macintyre, then Cameron has just gone up in this Englishwoman's estimation.

A Parliament for England!!!!BLISS!

Dontmindme
17 September 2009 at 15:32

If you think Labour campaigning on a ticket of "Elect Labour to save the Union", then I ask you to consider the sucess of "24 hours to save the pound".

The union will survive for fail for a reason entirely unrelated to party poilitics. The Scottish wallet. They agreed to union for the money, and that will be their the reason to stay in or out.

The English simply wont care.

They don't now, and no amount of flag waving will help Labour in 2010.

Try another topic that people do care about. You know jobs, public services, public spending, all topics Labour thinks of as home ground.

Oh, wait, I see your problem now

obangobang
17 September 2009 at 15:36

James Macintyre

17 September 2009 at 15:12

So if you are now accepting that the root of the problem is the flawed devolution settlement, without which we wouldn't even be having this debate, what is the point of this article?

As evidence of a Cameron u-turn you refer to a blog by Alistair Campbell which merely mentions that when asked about devolution, Cameron agrees that it is wrong for the West Lothian question not to have been addressed. So from a criticism of how devolution works (or doesn't), you somehow extrapolate that this equates to threatening the union. In your previous article, you refer to devolution as being a mistake, so presumably therefore you are also guilty of undermining the union.

You can't have it both ways (something else that is typically New Labour, of course).

And I wish you Labour cheerleaders would stop assuming that everyone who is critical of them or the government is a Tory. I vote SNP and am looking forward to significantly improved support for independence after the GE next year.

James Matthews
17 September 2009 at 17:21

Your final sentence betrays the truth. It is not Cameron's acknowledgement of the West Lothian Question that threatens the Union, but New Labour's cynical and politically self-interested policy of asymmetric devolution. Another Labour mess that the Tories will have to try to sort out.

Stephen Gash
17 September 2009 at 18:48

There is no value for the English to remain in this so-called Union.

Labour has systematically attempted to eradicate England for the sake of the UK. The English have been prejudicially disadvantaged, post-devolution, compared to the rest of the British people in a way that Scots and Welsh never were pre-devolution.

Let's have a referendum on independence for each of the countries comprising the UK.

The Union is well past its sell-by date.

Home Rule for England
17 September 2009 at 19:22

New Labour let the genie of self rule out of the bottle in 1998 and now many are now aware that the Union is past its sell by date.

Let's resolve the matter by holding an independence referendum in England and Scotland. Not sure about Scotland but I would bet that England would vote YES.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants...

The British government could perhaps defuse English ill feeling towards Scotland by allowing England a referendum on an English Parliament, rather than trotting out the tired old 'there is no appetite for an English Parliament'..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6264823.stm

Helen Wright
17 September 2009 at 19:29

Labour screwed the Union when they put Scots in charge of England, who had free reign to screw the English tax payers and still feather bed the Scots at our expense.

I say Screw the Union and screw the British in Westminster.

We didn't start this, but if we don't get an EP, the those wanting independence will certainly finish it for the whole stinking gravy train of them.

John
17 September 2009 at 21:54

Slightly contorted reasoning James

( the whole disastrous situation is very, very much the responsibility of Labour and not Cameron and I am in no way trying to stick up for Cameron)

but you are on something when you detect a weakening in pro Union attitudes by at least some Tories . Portillo makes no secret of his feelings and he cannot be alone in this. Difficult to quantify though. Really, I would take the oposite line and say it is remarkable the Tories have stayed loyal to the concept of Union for so long. However, time goes on and the clear democratic and spending disadvantages of England in this devolved world cannot be ignored or played down forever. They must be under a lot of pressure from what is effectively their home territory ie England and that can't just be ignored permanently. Electoral pressures are always there and politics is politics.

The sad thing is, devolution, national parliaments within the union, half-federalism call it what you will , was overseen by a congentitally shallow man, Blair. He is the classic intellectual lightweight given too much power . A frivolous , arrogant , irresponsible fool . I cannot believe that other Labour leaders eg Wilson, Callaghan and John Smith too, conscious of the national marriage that is the Union and the delicacy of its balances and restraints, would have plunged in so thoughtlessly and produced such a witches brew as we now have.

A great pity John Smith died when he did. He would have made a great PM. A surer touch, he might well have defused this problem.

Damn cigarettes and damn Blair.

Boudicca
17 September 2009 at 22:07

It was Labour and devolution that started this - especially because of the gerry-mandered form of devolution, where MPs representing Scottish constituencies can vote on laws which only affect England. The union as it is currently formulated should go; we should move to a properly federal system with national Governments in each of the constituent countries/principalities - yes EVEN England!

Each national/regional Parliament should have tax raising powers and we should have a small Federal Government, based somewhere other than Westminster. That is English. English taxpayers should not subsidise the rest of the federation.

Bill Baker
18 September 2009 at 11:51

We have parties such as the English Democrats that are surging ahead with supporters getting behind them because of the recent election of Peter Davies as Doncaster Mayor. Peter Davies has initiated some very controversial policies that have blown the frqamework of political correctness apart and has now awakened a lot of English voters who would normally be complacent with regard to the coming elections. The current political trend of constantly pandering to the Scottish voters is also seeing English voters about to burst at the seams and many wishing for the SNP to take Scotland away from the Union so it would not only relieve the tax burden on the English, but give them an opportunity of their own parliamentary representation as a united force and not split into 8 regions. Also in question is our continued participation of the European Union, which has become a tax burden as well during the current economic climate and it loooks like fringe parties such as the English Democrats are going to come into the fray and swinging a heavy club around their head, an English consciousness club as the English are now awakening to the political mismanagement of our country over the last 4 decades.

Bill Baker
18 September 2009 at 11:52

We have parties such as the English Democrats that are surging ahead with supporters getting behind them because of the recent election of Peter Davies as Doncaster Mayor. Peter Davies has initiated some very controversial policies that have blown the frqamework of political correctness apart and has now awakened a lot of English voters who would normally be complacent with regard to the coming elections. The current political trend of constantly pandering to the Scottish voters is also seeing English voters about to burst at the seams and many wishing for the SNP to take Scotland away from the Union so it would not only relieve the tax burden on the English, but give them an opportunity of their own parliamentary representation as a united force and not split into 8 regions. Also in question is our continued participation of the European Union, which has become a tax burden as well during the current economic climate and it loooks like fringe parties such as the English Democrats are going to come into the fray and swinging a heavy club around their head, an English consciousness club as the English are now awakening to the political mismanagement of our country over the last 4 decades.

Bill Baker
18 September 2009 at 11:53

We have parties such as the English Democrats that are surging ahead with supporters getting behind them because of the recent election of Peter Davies as Doncaster Mayor. Peter Davies has initiated some very controversial policies that have blown the framework of political correctness apart and has now awakened a lot of English voters who would normally be complacent with regard to the coming elections. The current political trend of constantly pandering to the Scottish voters is also seeing English voters about to burst at the seams and many wishing for the SNP to take Scotland away from the Union so it would not only relieve the tax burden on the English, but give them an opportunity of their own parliamentary representation as a united force and not split into 8 regions. Also in question is our continued participation of the European Union, which has become a tax burden as well during the current economic climate and it loooks like fringe parties such as the English Democrats are going to come into the fray and swinging a heavy club around their head, an English consciousness club as the English are now awakening to the political mismanagement of our country over the last 4 decades.

Mark Lancaster
18 September 2009 at 14:42

I can only concur with Bill Baker's comments.

The English voters are becoming increasingly aware that they are being played for fools by the political establishment and denied true democracy.

The only party with any answers are the English Democrats.

The only hope for the union is an English Parliament and a forum in which all the Home Nations can meet as equals. Once again the English Democrats are the only party with the foresight to have policies to deal with this inevitable conclusion to the devolution dabte already in their manifesto.

Expect to see the old parties make up policy on the hoof as events unfold with no real direction or purpose.

Alec Akehurst
18 September 2009 at 20:05

I've been paying Taxes & National Insurance into the 'British' economy my whole working life, 46yrs, I'm 64 yrs old, I've never questioned or argued about what or who it was spend on, I voted Labour up until the 70's, then I figured Labour & the Unions were killing 'British' industry and destroying the 'British' way of life, so changed my vote to Conservative, naively thinking they would stand up for all that is (was) 'British' but alas, that was just a dream also.

Now I consider myself 'ENGLISH' not 'british', and I AM asking who or what are my Taxes & Insurance contributions being spent on? It appears to be being spent on the Scottish, Welsh, Irish, the whole of the European Club and beyond. HELLO!!!! when are the 'ENGLISH' gonna wake up?? I figure NOW!! is the right time to do so.

After a lot of research I think I've found the perfect vehicle to guide 'ENGLAND' out of the current mess it finds itself in through no fault of its own ( are you reading Gordon/Dave?) The 'English' Democrats are a shining example of 'ENGLISHNESS' with the right policies for 'ENGLAND' and the 'ENGLISH people.

The Union is dead, a vote for the 'English' Democrats is a HUGE vote for 'England' and the 'English'.

jolleyjohn
18 September 2009 at 20:56

The time has come for an English Parliament,I was for UKIP but they seem to have lost their way a bit.

The English Democrats are the way forward and there could be a major shift in the political party make-up come the General Election.Bring it on I say !

The sooner, the better.

Paul Goddard
19 September 2009 at 08:31

Where has the racism story gone?

Mattypn
20 September 2009 at 11:42

Christ, some of the comments on here could fill a comedy sketch.

Who's to 'blame' for devolution? Is it that evil degenerate Tony Blair and his wicked New Labour savages who have dragged this once great nation to the dogs? Or could it, just possibly, have happened because it's what people wanted and was overwhelmingly endorsed in a referendum?

If the SNP are more popular now, it does not vindicate those who opposed devolution and nor does it mean there is a pressing case for independence. Labour is unpopular - people are seeking an alternative, most Scots would rather perform oral sex on a diseased animal than vote Tory, and so the SNP is doing well. End of story.

aisforanxiety
02 October 2009 at 10:47

It will be interest see how the former Ulster Unionist Party, who have now formed an electoral pact with the tories and will be running under a conservative banner, will react to this news.

Ardent
13 October 2009 at 17:06

It was Labour who have split the Union through both devolution and unpopular wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Furthermore instead of seeking a solution such as the extablishment of an English Parliament and Federal UK with each component coming together on issues such as home defence, Labour has sat on it's hands and buried it's head in the sand, hoping the issue will disapear.

What we have now is an unequal and devided nation and this is evident through the fact that any cuts made by the UK Parliament may not apply to Scotland.

RJ
31 October 2009 at 21:04

Labour and any other GB Parties dont ever get elected or even Stand for Elections here in the North of Ireland,

so i guess the Union between Ireland and Great Britain has never been since 1922, we have always been ruled by either Direct from the Secretary of State or Dublin [Pre 1922] and the NI Parliament [pre 1972] and the NI Assembly [1998 [with Direct rule until 2007] then 2007-present] we have never elected a prime minister or a party that can form a government [because even if they did stand here they wouldint get elected] so i guess the Union [in Our Case] has been Over and Dead [since 1921] .i cant wait until the Brits pull out completelly, i just hope they leave there money thats all that any of us want, not the dumb idiots ruling over us, [this is not critism to the British People but to Westminster and they parties]