Creationism and political power in Northern Ireland
The row over the Giant's Causeway visitors' centre is more about politics than science or religion.
By Nelson Jones Published 06 July 2012 14:27
In 1892, the Rev Canon Alfred Barry gave a series of lectures at Oxford University reflecting on the relationship between faith and science. Referring to the debate about the origin of and evolution of life, he noted that:
Few men, I suppose, now doubt that the mutability of allied species, once considered as fixed and unchangeable, has been substantially proved...No one, again, seriously doubts that in this development the process which Darwin termed Natural Selection is one potent factor.
When Charles Darwin first outlined his theory, in 1859's Origin of Species, some Christians objected to the lack of divine guidance in the scheme. Few, however, still clung to the 17th century chronology of Archbishop Ussher, who had dated the creation to 4004 BC, or objected to the findings of geology that the earth was many millions of years old. "Young Earth" creationism is very much a product of the 20th century. It would have astonished and dismayed Barry, or indeed Thomas Burnet, a theologian who wrote in 1680 that it was "a dangerous thing to engage the authority of scripture in disputes about the natural world, in opposition to reason."
Yet in the very week that 21st century science demonstrated its God-like prowess with the discovery of the Higgs boson, the National Trust stands accused of pandering to Young Earth creationists in Northern Ireland. An exhibit at its newly-opened Giant's Causeway visitors' centre refers non-judgementally to a "debate" about the age and origins of the structure, which geology has firmly dated at around 60 million years. In its initial statement, since modified, the Trust referred to a desire to "reflect and respect the fact that creationists today have a different perspective on the age of the earth from that of mainstream science."
Also causing concern was a somewhat self-congratulatory press release from the Caleb Foundation, a group which claims to represent "the interests of mainstream evangelical Christians in Northern Ireland". Caleb expressed satisfaction that the National Trust "worked positively with us" to incorporate the creationist perspective into the exhibit and suggested that their co-operation "sets a precedent for others to follow". By acknowledging the creationists' claims, the Trust had made the exhibit "inclusive and representative of the whole community."
On this view, the job of the visitor's centre isn't to inform visitors of the known facts, but rather to even-handedly disseminate views. Instead of being people who are either ignorant or in denial about the basic principles of geology, Young Earthers are elevated to the status of a "community" whose views are as worthy of respect as those of "the scientific community". Indeed, it implies that belief in a "young earth" is a means of expressing identity rather than a scientific or religious opinion. But why should creationists be so anxious for their views to be acknowledged or validated in this way?
The important thing to recognise is that this row is essentially about politics rather than science – and, specifically, about the politics of Northern Irish unionism. The Caleb Foundation's claim to being representative of mainstream evangelical opinion may be open to debate, but it certainly has considerable political influence. Its vice-chairman is Mervyn Storey MLA, a senior member of the DUP and the Orange Order, and several other prominent DUP politicians also have close links to Caleb. According to Roger Stanyard of the British Centre for Science Education Storey, who has no scientific background, "appears to have set himself up as an authority on the geology of the Giant’s Causeway."
Another MLA, the late George Dawson, wrote in a letter to a Unionist newspaper in 2006 that he and Storey, along with DUP Westminster MP David Simpson,
...have been pressing government on the need to ensure that interpretation at the new Causeway interpretative centre is inclusive of the views expressed by Rev Dr Greer [a creationist who argues that the Causeway provides evidence of Noah's Flood]... This is a matter of equality and tourism opportunity. In equality terms it is incumbent upon government not to discriminate against this equally scientific viewpoint and those who believe it.
According to Stanyard, "a core of, maybe, around half a dozen very senior politicians within the DUP" have been involved in promoting Young Earth creationism in the province and that "the evidence over the last few years suggests that there are very strong pressures within the party to get creationism into schools." They include Edwin Poots, who in a radio inverview in 2007, as culture minister, proclaimed without embarrassment his own belief that the world was created in 4000BC and accused scientists like Richard Dawkins of wanting to "indoctrinate everyone with evolution". It may not be a coincidence that creationism has grown in importance in Ulster politics as the peace process has advanced. The politics of creationism may partly be a replacement for the more overt sectarianism of the past.
Teaching creationism alongside evolution in school science lessons is the ultimate ambition of these campaigners and politicians. Getting creationism acknowledged in the Giant's Causeway visitors' centre, even tentatively, counts as a minor victory towards this goal. It helps to establish creationist views as mainstream. And it must be acknowledged that among Northern Ireland's unionist political establishment, as in parts of the US Republican party, they are. That is the problem. The age of the earth is of course a scientific question with a clear scientific answer. It's not a religious question. But it is, at least in Northern Ireland, increasingly a political question, and political debates are not primarily concerned about facts but about power.
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41 comments
Here in TN, they have taken steps though new legislation to allow creationism back into the classroom. This law turns the clock back nearly 100 years here in the seemingly unprogressive South and is simply embarrassing. There is no argument against the Theory of Evolution other than that of religious doctrine. The Monkey Law only opens the door for fanatic Christianity to creep its way back into our classrooms. You can see my visual response as a Tennessean to this absurd law on my artist’s blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2012/04/pulpit-in-classroom-biblical-... with some evolutionary art and a little bit of simple logic.
Doubtless, visitors to the Giant's Causeway are also regaled with the legend of Finn McCool. Moreover, they always will have been. I know, I know. But even so.
This whole carry-on recalls the insistence on the invented language of Ulster-Scots, complete with the self-confessed neologism that is "Ullans", whenever Irish is used; apparently, no one seems to realise that Irish is by no stretch of the imagination a peculiarly Catholic or Nationalist language historically speaking, any more than Catholicism and Nationalism have been synonymous during most of the, still fairly brief, period in which the latter has existed.
No, if one lot gets to have its mythology, Finn McCool, in relation to a major tourist attraction, than some way must be found to include the other lot's mythology, Young Earth Creationism, as well. Except that few, if any, people with their age in double figures believe that Finn McCool ever existed in actual fact.
Now, don't get me wrong. The Young Earth Creationist position is more scientific, not that that is saying anything, than are the effusions of Richard Dawkins, the logic of whose position is that the natural-scientific method itself is just another "meme". The YECs do at least really believe in science, in principle, at all. Whereas Dawkins's position, which is bad enough philosophy, is even worse, if any, science. Theirs, on the other hand, is merely bad science, and of course worse theology.
Again, though, don't get me wrong. Science arose out of the uniquely Christian rejection of humanity's otherwise universal concepts of eternalism, that the universe has always existed and always will; animism, that the universe is a living thing, an animal; pantheism, that the universe is itself the ultimate reality, God; cyclicism, that everything which happens has already happened in exactly the same form, and will happen again in exactly the same form, an infinite number of times; and astrology, that events on earth are controlled by the movements of celestial bodies within an eternalistic, animistic, pantheistic and cyclicistic universe.
Science cannot prove that these closely interrelated things are not the case; it simply has to presuppose their falseness, first established in thirteenth-century Paris when their Aristotelian expression was condemned at the Sorbonne specifically by ecclesial authority, and specifically by reference to the Biblical Revelation.
That is why science as we now understand the term never originated anywhere other than in Medieval Europe. And it is why science did not last, or flower as it might have done, in the Islamic world: whereas Christianity sees the rationally investigable order in the universe as reflecting and expressing the rationality of the Creator, the Qur’an repeatedly depicts the will of Allah as capricious.
But creationism is scientism. Scientism is the belief that the only objectively true knowledge is that derived from the application of the natural-scientific method. It is ruinous of science, since that method can only function on certain presuppositions which it cannot prove, but rather must (and, historically, happily did) accept on higher authority. Creationism is a form of scientism, which has accepted the scientistic argument and then applied it to the Book of Genesis.
Creationists may seem to be the polar opposites of Stephen Hawking, Peter Atkins and Richard Dawkins. But, in fact, they are all of a piece. I would not teach the works of Dawkins - wholly incompetent in the field that he has long chosen to colonise - in schools. Nor would I teach creationism. For exactly the same reasons in both cases.
That is one of the many reasons why I am not, and have never been, New Labour. New Labour was and is happy to teach Dawkinsian scientism to its own children and creationist scientism to other people's, at public expense all round. I am not happy with the teaching of either of them to anybody. What says, for example, Oliver Kamm about New Labour's, and specifically his hero Tony Blair's, enthusiastic use of public money in order to teach creationism?
Nor am I happy with the assumption that teenagers are so thick that they can be fobbed off with "the fossil record": of course, the fact that two species inhabited the same place at different times and resembled each other does not prove anything at all, still less that the later one was descended from the earlier one. With teaching like that, it is no wonder that, once you take out the Don't Knows and adjust accordingly, the creationist proportion of the British population is comparable to the creationist proportion of the American population, and growing.
There is really only one thing about evolution that truly interests the popular mind. That is the common ancestor of Man and the great apes. No such ancestor has ever been found, and children should be taught that fact, for fact it is. And as long as fact it remains, it further remains perfectly legitimate to believe that, whatever might have gone on or be going on among plants and animals, the first man was created directly from inanimate matter, and the first woman from out of the first man, exactly as the Bible teaches.
Why not? If that was what happened, then science, which is purely descriptive, would just have to deal with it. And it has produced no reason whatever to disbelieve it; no other particular species from which we are demonstrably descended. Likewise, since the emergence of the first living cell from inanimate matter remains wholly incapable of repetition, then there is no scientific reason whatever not to believe that that, too, was a direct act of creation. Who can show that this is scientifically impossible? Who can say what really happened instead?
But how is it that, in order to balance or counteract the teaching of an Irish Republican historiography and of a broader Gaelic-Irish culture, by no means necessarily the same thing, Northern Ireland stands on the cusp of the teaching of Young Earth Creationism? The body that has been most active in bringing about the concession to that position by the National Trust in respect of the Giant's Causeway has been the Caleb Foundation.
That Foundation the closest possible ties indeed to the Democratic Unionist Party. However, its Council of Reference features no minister of any of Northern Ireland's three largest Protestant denominations: the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Church of Ireland, and the Methodist Church in Ireland. Yet none could exactly be described as liberal in Northern Ireland, and the first two, at least, contain no shortage of clergy who would fall into the Conservative Evangelical camp as generally defined. Clerics of all three have routinely held, and still do routinely hold, offices high and low in the Orange Order and in the Royal Black Institution.
Yet Caleb's Council of Reference stretches from the very old guard Calvinistic (Evangelical Presbyterians, Reformed Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists) to the Pentecostal (Elim, Church of the Nazarene, plus the roots of such things in the entire sanctification still strongly affirmed by the Independent Methodists) and to those who maintain the theology of pre-Pentecostal fundamentalism alongside the outward forms of the popular Calvinism of yesteryear (the Free Presbyterians), without anyone in the vein of the Presbyterian the Reverend Stephen Dickinson, or the Anglican and Irish language enthusiast the Reverend Dr Eric Culbertson, or the Methodist the late Reverend Robert Bradford MP.
Caleb cannot, then, claim to be upholding the tradition of James Ussher, whose calculations of the date of creation are by far the least interesting thing about him, and a full biography of whom was quite recently published by Professor Alan Ford of Nottingham, who previously had the questionable pleasure of lecturing me at Durham on the Reformation.
Caleb, with immediate access to the very top of the main Unionist party, has no ties even to Protestants and Unionists as hardline as Mr Dickinson, or as Dr Culbertson who has tried in his time to become an anti-Agreement UUP MP when not organising services in Irish, or as the late Mr Bradford who was murdered by the IRA in 1981. Caleb, with immediate access to the very top of the main Unionist party, has no ties to the denominations being banished by Sinn Féin from their historic role in Northern Ireland's schools as the dry run for that party's banishment of the Catholic Church from schools throughout the Island. Caleb has no such links. And nor has the DUP.
For what we see in Northern Ireland is the carve-up between a bizarre fundamentalist sect and a Marxist guerilla organisation, the archetype of the "centre ground" politics of which we are all supposed to approve, but which is in fact a carve-up between that sect's old allies on the 1980s Radical Right and those guerillas' old allies on the 1970s sectarian Left, not least on the basis of support for the European Union through which those guerillas legislate for us alongside the Far Right, the Far Left, and Dutch ultra-Calvinists who will not have women as candidates but who campaign for Sir David Attenborough's documentaries to be edited in order to remove any reference to evolution before they may be shown on Dutch television.
In coalition with Sinn Féin sits, for example, Nelson McCausland, a British Israelite and Young Earth Creationist who is an enthusiast for Ulster-Scots and for the chaining up of children's swings on the Sabbath. As Minister of Culture, he demanded creationism in the museums. He is now Minister of Social Development. Far from an isolated figure, he is hotly tipped for Westminster, where the creationist (and, tellingly, pro-homoeopathy) activist David Simpson already sits, legislating for you and for me.
In order to counterbalance Gaelic mythology and Republican mythologised history, is British Israelitism, Robert Bradford's position but consistently condemned by Ian Paisley, also soon to be purveyed, first at National Trust properties, then in museums, and then in schools, all at the expense of taxpayers throughout the United Kingdom? Gaelic mythology, like the Irish language, is all well and good, and indeed historically both a Protestant and a Unionist interest, again like the language. But one would no more wish to teach either mythologised Republican history or British Israelitism than either Young Earth Creationism or the effusions of Richard Dawkins.
Remember, though, that one must never, ever, ever criticise "the Northern Ireland peace process". Like criticising the EU, to do so would be to prove that one were not on "the centre ground". And that would never do. Would it?
We have only ourselves to blame.
Anyone see a pattern here?
Religion, in all its diverse forms, causes conflict. Whether between different religious groups, or between religious and secular. Even within a particular doctrine there are differences of interpretation. Not surprising, given that it's all made up. People just love to believe someone (their chosen god or gods) is in control.
Isn't it time the human race moved on? Religion served a useful purpose in the distant past, but we're beyond that.
Look up Planet Nibiru - heading this way
Can anyone show me the fossils of the intermediate species between the rodent and the bat? I'd like to see how the digits on the forelimbs became elongated. Why was this mutation an advantage? What purpose did the webs between the digits serve, since they must have provided enough of an advantage that they became inherited also? In addition to longer digits with webbing between them, bone density and musculature, tendons, etc. also had to adapt accordingly, not to mention the brain also had to adapt in order for this creature to become aerodynamically capable.
am going to take a wild guess here Mjazz; you have never read a biology textbook or popular science book on evolution written by biologists. and, you have absolutely no intention of doing so. ever.
how did i do?
I can't tell you specifically about the evolution of the bat, but there are lots of other species for which there are plenty of intermediate stepped fossils which demonstrate the process of evolution, such as the horse. There might be species here and there for which we aren't finding lots of intermediary fossils, but give it time. Fossils are hard to make and happen only under relatively rare circumstances...then men have to know where to dig, yes? Yours is just a "God of the Gaps" argument, which totally fails.
The horse evolution series has been discredited.
Prof. Heribert Nilsson who is himself an Evolutionist, said
"The family tree of the horse is beautiful and continuous only in the textbooks. In the reality provided by the results of research it is put together from three parts, of which only the last can be described as including horses. The forms of the first part are just as much little horses as the present day damons are horses. The construction of the whole Cenozoic family tree of the horse is therefore a very artificial one, since it is put together from non-equivalent parts, and cannot therefore be a continuous transformation series".
You're clearly out of date, quoting a source from more than 50 years ago! Inform yourself a bit before you sound off - eg by reading Bruce J. MacFadden's 'Fossil Horses: Systematics, Paleobiology, and Evolution of the Family Equidae'.
You're clearly out of date, quoting a source from more than 50 years ago! Inform yourself a bit before you sound off - eg by reading Bruce J. MacFadden's 'Fossil Horses: Systematics, Paleobiology, and Evolution of the Family Equidae'.
You're clearly out of date, quoting a source from more than 50 years ago! Inform yourself a bit before you sound off - eg by reading Bruce J. MacFadden's 'Fossil Horses: Systematics, Paleobiology, and Evolution of the Family Equidae'.
I confess that this article came as a rude shock to me. I had always assumed that, apart from a few benighted theocratic backwaters in the developing world, the US was unique in the world in giving any voice to this sort of medieval mentality. I am alarmed that the forces of anti-intellectualism have gained such a foothold in the West in this day and age. It is incumbent on all persons of good conscience, regardless of their religious convictions or lack thereof, to stand up and speak out against this hijacking of scientific discourse for callow political interests.
to add to your distress; the Reformed Christians in The Netherlands (my country) edit Richard Attenborough's nature programs to remove any reference to the age of the Earth and evolution. they just mute the sound track till those sections have passed.
bizarre or what?
"The politics of creationism may partly be a replacement for the more overt sectarianism of the past"
Loved that sentence!!
Sectarianism in NI has never been tackled properly. There has never been an all out campaign of posters in public buildings, soap operas on TV, an education/information campaign in schools, clubs, sporting associations and so on and so forth.
Maintaining bigotry and sectarianism evidently suits all political parties there.
@Alan Day. At least those stories are presented as the myths they are and aren't faith positions dressed up as fact, eh?
FYI: The National Trust also recounts the tale of the Giant Finn McCool being the creator of the Giant`s Causeway and tells ghost stories at other location such as Springhill outside Moneymore
And?
Does it say, on those occasions that 'there are those with a different understanding than mainstream science (sic)' regarding Finn mcCool?
When I go to Cairo, will I see space aliens listed as a 'possible understanding' of how the pyramids at Giza may have been constructed?
More to the point, regardless of the actual answers to the above, there are not organizations brainwashing children about Finn McCool, at least not to the same extent, as far as I am aware. There are not, as far as I am aware, prominent local politicians who actually advocate Finn McCool as historical and factual, and the source of important, absolute/objective moral rules which they would actually like society to be run by. What, I wonder for example, is the 'McCoolist' position on homosexuality?
I write as someone who is married to a person who was subject to said attempted unpleasant brainwashing as a child. It has left a legacy.
So, I think the analogy/comparison does not stretch too far. Yes, it could be argued that some of the reaction is puzzlingly over the top, but it could, validly in my opinion, be said that it is good to see large numbers of people exploring the part of the local iceberg which is under water. The NT needs, in my view, to distance itself further from the comments by the Caleb Foundation than it has so far done so, and possibly amend or remove the exhibition material in question. Not that it is my job to tell the NT what it needs to do, of course. :)
'in the very week that 21st century science demonstrated its God-like prowess with the discovery of the Higgs boson'
Discovery, Nelson, not creation. Let's not get 'beyond' ourselves.
yet more evidence that Creationists are the missing link between Homo sapiens sapiens and some distant ancestor of questionable intelligence.
Corrigendum
'When Charles Darwin first outlined his theory, in 1859's Origin of Species, some Christians objected to the lack of divine guidance in the scheme.'
should read:
'When Charles Darwin first outlined his theory, in 1859's Origin of Species, some people objected to the lack of divine guidance in the scheme. '
It looks pretty obvious that the NT creationism affair is a product of clientelism in Northern Ireland's bizarre politics. The Caleb Foundation primarily represents the Free Presbyterians, Ian Paisley's church. Seven of its 17 Council of Reference members are Free Pees. Of course, the DUP was also the product of Paisley so there are three very closely interconnected organisations at work here.
The Caleb Foundation simply does not represent evangelicals (or, indeed, the religious) in Northern Ireland. It was specifically set up as a lobbying organisation to represent the interests of small Protestant sects and denominations and excludes all four of the province's main denominations - the Roman Catholic Church (needless to say), the Presbyterian Church (the largest Protestant denomination), the Church of Ireland and the Methodist Church. Its past claims to represent 200,000 evangelicals in the province appears to be as bogus as its creationism. The figure is almost certainly under 20,000.
Given its strong links to the Free Presbyterians, I suspect that it is primarily just another front to promote Paisley's interests.
This seems a very sensible article, and of course I would mostly not disagree with the following from it:
"The age of the earth is of course a scientific question with a clear scientific answer. It's not a religious question."
However it ought to be again pointed out that the supposed "distinct magisteria" of science and religion is simply false, when religion is taken to include belief in a god (or gods) who actually has (or have) any effect at all on the real (physical) world. And that would include all the abrahamic religions. For the unfortunately deluded who hoodwinked the National Trust into this mistake, the actual ages of the Giants' Causeway, of the earth, and of the observable universe all directly contradict their religious beliefs.
This is a good point: there is certainly a degree of overlap between the "magisteria" in which science and religion speak. This is occasionally overlooked, for example, by those who assert that there is "no evidence for" God, who miss the point that what the Bible offers are claims that God has acted in human history (e.g. in the lives of figures such as Abraham, David, Jesus' disciples...)
It is not a complete overlap, however. It would not be possible for someone seeking to evaluate the Biblical claims to conduct controlled experiments or perform observations in the same way that much scientific work does; it can only be weighed in the same manner as any other historical documents.
Similarly, those who have weighed this evidence and concluded the Bible to be the word of God should bear in mind that the author's purpose (and authors' purposes) did not involve compiling a science textbook. As a collection of historically and culturally specific documents, the Biblical texts should not be thought of as engaging in discussions and debates that were not apparent to those by and for whom they were originally written. They may speak powerfully about God's plan to redeem fallen human beings, but not about geology, biology or politics!
"..the Biblical texts should not be thought of as engaging in discussions and debates that were not apparent to those by and for whom they were originally written. They may speak powerfully about God's plan to redeem fallen human beings, but not about geology, biology or politics!"
That sounds reasonable, but it appears that:
(1) The vast majority of Christians have historically taken the Bible to be literally true in all respects, and apparently that is still true for Muslims and the Koran;
(2) When modern Christians are asked to specify how they decide what in the Bible is literally true and what is metaphor, they never have an answer, and that includes so-called sophisticated theologians. It is always just retreat after retreat as scientific thinking demonstrates quite clearly falsehood after falsehood in their beliefs. If Adam and Eve did not exist, which they didn't with overwhelming certainty, then original sin, a basis of Christianity, becomes metaphorical, and so do other Christian myths of various kinds and plenty of other religions.
It's time for young people, including those visiting geological sites, to have this made very clear to them.
I hope it is a reasonable position, but that's not to say that these sorts of issues are easy to work out. As a committed Christian, I can fully understand that someone who "gives their life to follow Christ" would want to do this in every aspect. It would be inconsistent to "pick and choose" the areas in which Jesus could be Lord, particularly if he can't challenge me on areas of my character into which I'm reluctant to let him. However, there are a number of points which many Christians find helpful in seeking to understand the Bible:
1) Different types of literature can require different approaches. For example, Paul’s letter to the Romans takes the form of a carefully constructed argument, and therefore asks to be studied in a much more detailed and logical manner than the poetry of, say, Psalm 23. The Lord is not literally my shepherd, nor am I actually a sheep(!); the Psalmist’s purpose here is to convey God’s care and guidance of his people.
2) Passages should be primarily understood in their cultural context. The original readers (and hearers) of Genesis 1 would not have had scientific textbooks in mind but other creation stories from the ancient Near East. Unlike these, in which the world came about through the tussles of numerous gods battling for supremacy, Genesis describes one God who carefully and purposefully created a good world and mankind in his own image. This would be the talking point, not the age of the earth.
3) The texts usually identify their own emphasis. Often the writers make this clear, such as Luke, who begins his gospel with his decision “to write an orderly account”. In terms of Genesis 1, the focus is not on detail, which is almost entirely lacking, but in God’s initiative, authority and verdict: “the Lord said… And it was so… And God saw that it was good.” Hence, we are to take it as a treatise on theology not geology!
4) The Bible is consistent in its focus and message. It is careful to make its points about sin and salvation repeatedly throughout its sixty six books. Hence it is worth being more wary of any idea that relies on just one or two Biblical quotes, particularly if these are not the overall subject of the passages from which they are taken.
My aim in making these points is not to argue for a minimisation of the relevance of the Bible – I believe it to be a profoundly important and life changing book. But those who do choose to investigate it may be better to turn their focus to the serious questions that it poses, rather than issues with which it (to be frank) is not really concerned.
Original Sin?
As a marketing device OS has done very well it has led to a belief in the general condition of sinfulness of the human race from birth, hence the Church is able to claim that it and only it is able to save those sinners.
OS as devised by Paul was continually used to beat those early followers of the erstwhile Jesus about the head & soul. But there was no evidence of OS until Paul came along.
Where did the erstwhile Jesus talk of OS? Where in the OT is there a mention of OS? The early Church took to it seriously as a way of controlling the flock. So seriously that later it was worked up into doctrine by Iraneus.
Understandable then why later on Pelagianism did so well. For if one can be at all rational about any religion why should it be accepted that a “sin” supposedly committed at the very beginning of “creation” can effect a new born child by placing them at birth in the general condition of sinfulness
Of course this was opposed, for it was cutting into the Church franchise in the Holy Roman Empire. Then along comes Augustine, the “saint” who wrote "Lord grant me chastity, but not yet" to argue against Pelagianism.
So much so that the early Church may have ended up like the Shakers. Augustine was definitely down on sexuality. Like all those Southern evangelists, who having wallowed in sin and fornication decide that no one else should.
Obviously if Augustine had had enough that was it for everyone else so he railed against concupiscence. But the Church needed all the “faithful” to reproduce to keep the franchise going, so much of what was in Augustine’s arguments was swept under the carpet.
However the later Protestant sects of took to Original Sin in a big way, following the Augustine line concerning concupiscence and ramping up the guilt trip.
Luther asserted that humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception. But somehow interestingly enough he subscribed to that strange doctrine of the Immaculate conception!
Calvin believed that humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception. But he took it even further for this is the basis for the Calvinistic doctrine of "total depravity. Resulting in a complete alienation from Calvin's God and the total inability of humans to achieve reconciliation with Calvin's God based on their own abilities.
Not only do individuals inherit a sinful nature due to Adam's fall, but since he was the first representative of the human race, all whom he represented inherit the guilt of his sin.
"Different types of literature can require different approaches. For example, Paul’s letter to the Romans takes the form of a carefully constructed argument, and therefore asks to be studied in a much more detailed and logical manner than the poetry of, say, Psalm 23."
That is an example, but not even a beginning for an answer to the reasonable question of what is the criterion to decide what is to be metaphor, and what is to be taken as true. Could you perhaps commit yourself as to whether such a thing as original sin even exists? If so, you would seem to be asserting the existence of Adam and Eve in the face of overwhelming evidence that the human population never became less than hundreds at least (see the 2011 Nature paper of Heng li and Richard Durbin: "Inference of Human Population ...Sequences"); if not, then Christ died for a metaphor and Christians are deluded.
"The original readers (and hearers) of Genesis 1 would not have had scientific textbooks in mind but other creation stories ..."
The question is truth, not whether one story is more entertaining, or more convincing to ancient goat herders, than another story.
"Genesis 1...... we are to take it as a treatise on theology not geology!"
So a statement which is false in one reputable discipline can actually be true without modification in some other, no longer at all reputable, discipline. Surely the very existence of such is what has gradually made theology an intellectual laughing-stock in the past 150 years. The exception is actually just about exactly the people who pulled off this travesty on the National Trust; they would take geology as the false one. There seems to be only the two possibilities, no matter how mealy-mouthed the theologians have become about agreeing with science and back-pedalling.
"The Bible is consistent in its focus and message..... it is worth being more wary of any idea that relies on just one or two Biblical quotes.."
The first and second of these statements seem to directly contradict each other. IIRC, and to give a slightly mirthful example, can one not find three different values for the numerical constant \pi in the Bible, all three of which are of course false?
Hi Peter,
Thanks for your question about original sin. I can only speak of my own conscience: I do find that I have a strong idea of goodness and nobility, but also a persistent tendency to fall short of it. It does not seem to stem from a particular lack of willpower or education, but a tendency that is as infuriatingly innate and inherent to my character as any of my other human qualities. In this regard, I find the Biblical diagnosis of original sin to be an accurate description of myself.
With regard to your second point about truth, I think that the way language is understood is much more constructionist and interpretative than you imply. I’d argue that a fable such as the well known story of the Hare and the Tortoise can be far more effective in conveying a memorable message (in this case, about persistence vs laziness) than a purely literal statement would be. Even though the fable itself is clearly not factually true, it conveys an important and powerful truth which I think most people are able to separate out. Perhaps it's less clear cut with some other texts, but I think the same process applies.
Finally, you may be referring to discussions about the dimensions of a bowl described in 1 Kings 7, whose accuracy may depend on including the width of the rim in the calculations. I would say judge for yourself whether the author of the chapter is making a point about circle geometry or the grandeur of the temple Solomon was building for the Lord.
Best wishes,
Gareth
Hi Gareth,
Well, I enjoyed the reply though obviously I have a much lower opinion of the Bible than you. Although not answered directly, the criterion for deciding what is a metaphor, and what is literally true there, would in your case put just about everything in the category of metaphor, it seems. Whether that would include the very existence of Christ is less clear. Best, Peter
Glad you enjoyed it. I do find these sorts of discussions helpful for forcing me to clarify and probe my faith, so it's profitable whether I convince others or not! And it's good to be able to do so in such a civilised and constructive manner; this doesn't always happen in these forums!
I would just say that, in my view, while the Bible does contain a lot of metaphor, the largest part of its emphasis is on historical narrative, not least in conveying the history of the OT Israelites, and in the existence of Jesus Christ. In regards to the latter, while the gospel writers do clearly select incidents and organise their account in order to draw out themes, both they and I regard the actual existence of Christ and the resurrection as fundamental to our faith. As Paul says "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile... But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead..." (1 Corinthians 15). I wouldn't want to suggest that I believed otherwise!
Best wishes,
Gareth
'that includes so-called sophisticated theologians.'
Ah, yes. You see, they don't have the advantage of Charles Darwin, polymath extraordinaire. One of his lesser known monographs, written quite early in his career, helps to illustrate the brilliance that he later displayed to such public acclaim. In that small work, he explained how he made use of the local reptilium of a friend. Armed with a specially designed full frequency, stereophonic 'ear trumpet' apparatus, he listened intently, for day after day, in this reptile house. He eventually came to the conclusion that snakes, as well as lizards, terrapins and alligators did not utter recognisable words. They could certainly hiss, squeak, even roar and occasionally rattle, but not actually talk.
But this, anyone could have done, to be perfectly fair. Darwin's real genius rested in his curious ability to read words. He noticed that, in Genesis chapter one, plants were made before the first man, Adam. Yet, in chapter two, the man was emphatically made before any plants!
Now Darwin did not assume that the Bible was a heap of old self-contradictory phooey, because, on HMS Beagle, he earnestly reminded the crew of the value of said book. Early Genesis was obviously allegory, the chronology beginning with Abram in Ur, a city known to historians and archaeologists alike. So when, in 1879, he wrote, "Science has nothing to do with Christ," he really, really knew what he was talking about. His view was that "the theory of Evolution is quite compatible with the belief in a God". His friend, botanist and Presbyterian Asa Gray, entirely concurred. Since then, despite boson boffins, society has evidently regressed, and we are reduced to the hissing, squeaking, roaring and occasional rattling of so-called sophisticated theologians. Mostly squeaking.
Not being sure quite what to make of this, I'll assume, since that's all I can make sense of, that Keir is, in some peculiar way, making the claim that not everything which Darwin said is true. I could not agree more, as does every scientist. It follows that one should examine, not just accept, his important claims about natural selection being the prime driver of evolution. But even if it turned out that everything he ever said was true (and for no person, including a possibly existing person named Christ, is that even close to the case), it is still in the nature of scientific thinking, and very much against the nature of religious thinking, for us all to examine and require evidence as much as is within our capability, before accepting these assertions of Darwin.
The statement "Science has nothing to do with Christ", which he may possibly have said, would certainly be an example of him being wrong, on any reasonable definition of the word "science".
'Not being sure quite what to make of this'
Prelude to desperate and malicious misrepresentation.
Are you then saying that everything Darwin said is true? Or is it some entirely different point you were trying to make, which escapes my limited intellect? Please expand. Thanks.
I do not feel either desperate or malicious, but sometimes amateur psychologists might find a truth about a person of which that person was unaware.
I've blogged about this at http://answersingenes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/national-trust-succumbs-to-... and essentially agree with the analysis above; this is a power game. But it's not just among the democratic establishment - if anything the power struggle is between liberal and extremist forms of Christianity. Today the issue is creationism; tomorrow it is about equality in relation to sexual orientation; the next day it is about Protestant vs Catholic. It is definitely about politics, and a harking back to the bad old days.
-@shanemuk
Will the National Trust now place alternative 'crackpot' and unscientific notices alongside all it's sites which contain 'created' rocks and landscapes?
This is a dangerous precedent and makes the NT look like a very unprofessional outfit.
Please, NT, keep out of politics and stick to facts which are supported by scientific evidence - not ideas that have been thought up by religious sects which, presumably, have obtained them from a chap with a grey beard who floats in the clouds!
States should be secular - and the 'creationism' view, not supported by any evidence, has no place in schools or agencies like the NT. I would have thought N Ireland, of all people, can see what happens when religion takes over.
The Moslems want the right to teach creationism in segregated Mohammedan schools. Why is no one getting excited about this? The Presbetyrian hillbillies are an easier target, thats why.
I think you'll find that many of us are 'excited' by it ( http://www.facebook.com/Antitheists ) but we don't just pick on Islam - that is something we leave to the mindless idiots from the E.D.L. All we need is to allow one generation to grow up without having religious bigotry shoved down their throats and the world will suddenly become a much nicer place.
wrt the National Trust, I think this is one mistake they wont be repeating any time soon.
The atheists of China and Russia didn't make the world a better place.
Why not throw Pol Pot in there and Hitler. A belief in dangerous ideology is where your examples would be correct not the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
"All we need is to allow one generation to grow up without having religious bigotry shoved down their throats and the world will suddenly become a much nicer place."
do you have any evidence whatsoever to support this claim? (btw i am a non-theist)