Nelson Jones

Belief, disbelief and beyond belief

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God's Morning Monopoly

Is it time to open up Thought For The Day to non-believers?

Liverpool Cathedral
Liverpool Cathedral. Photograph: Getty Images

This morning the Rt Rev James Jones, Anglican bishop of Liverpool was in benign form on Radio 4, congratulating modern Britain for its finely-tuned moral sense.  Sexual mores might have changed over the past few decades, he noted, but these days "people are much more morally aware of injustice, bullying, racism, exploitation, the environment, poverty and corruption."  And it would be "unthinkable" for a public inquiry held in the wake of a public disaster only to take evidence from posh people, as the Titanic inquiry did a century ago.

A secularist might have wondered if the decline in active religiosity since the Titanic sank, most of its third-class passengers with it, to the strains of the doomed orchestra playing Nearer My God To Thee, was in any way connected with the moral progress the bishop had identified.  But by immemorial tradition non-religious voices are banned from that daily oasis of contemplation that is Thought For The Day.  So we'll just have to take his word for it that early 21st century society represented a state of affairs "nearer the Kingdom of God" than its God-fearing but class- and gender-divided Edwardian predecessor in which bankers gave their money to endow hospitals and women and children were first into the lifeboats.

One thing I think we can be fairly sure of, and that is that had Thought For The Day existed in 1912 there would be rather less controversy about its overtly religious nature.  

Yesterday regular Today presenter Evan Davis told the Independent that he didn't think that the slot's contributors need be limited to "people of the cloth".  He hinted that he would also like to see "serious and spiritually minded secularists" offering their reflections.  In the past he has been rather more outspoken, accusing the BBC of "discriminating against the non-religious".  But even yesterday's fairly tentative comments have been welcomed by the British Humanist Association's Pavan Dhaliwal, who complains that the Beeb's "egregious and unfathomable insistence that only religious views on moral issues of the day are valid persists."

The BHA and other secularist organisations have been trying without success to persuade the BBC to admit humanists to the coveted "God slot" for more than ten years.  In July 2009, change seemed to be in the air when the then Controller of Radio 4, Mark Damazer, said that it was a "finely balanced argument" and that "there may well be quite a strong argument for including secularists and humanists."  But even this suggestion provoked intense opposition.  Canon Giles Fraser was quoted in the Mail as calling the idea "madness" and comparing it to "secularists doing Songs of Praise."  Allowing an occasional non-believer to speak would be a way of "destroying it through the back door, through political correctness."  A Conservative MP who was also quoted said much the same thing, though a little less stridently.

Fraser needn't have worried.  Later that year, the BBC Trust ruled that the believers-only rule did not breach impartiality guidelines.  They concluded, essentially (and with almost theological sophistry) that although it sat within the Today programme, Thought For the Day was a "stand-alone slot", and therefore "did not require the more rigorous approach to impartiality expected of news and current affairs."  Any change would be up to the programme's editors.  They for their part seem to have concluded that the positive benefit of any such change -- a wider diversity of voices and perspectives  -- wasn't worth antagonising religious lobby groups.  And so it remains, like the bishops' benches in the House of Lords, a bastion of religious privilege in an otherwise secular society.  

As several of the complaints considered by the BBC Trust pointed out, the very title "Thought For the Day" is problematic.  It implies that there is something inherently thoughtful about religioius perspectives, more thoughtful at any rate than secular ones.  The slot is also anomalous in that the thoughts being expressed are unchallenged by the presenters or by other guests.  

As anyone who listens regularly will know, the quality of the contributors varies wildly.   It's hard to see how having speakers who came from a wider assortment of perspectives would adversely affect the quality of the thoughts being expressed or indeed the reflective nature of the slot.  There's no shortage of articulate and thoughtful people who could offer a philosophical take on the day's news without turning Thought For The Day into a pulpit for "militant atheism", which is perhaps what the producers are afraid of.

Non-belief is not, in itself, a faith position.  Nor is there such a thing as a single non-faith perspective, just as there is no single religious (or Christian, or Anglican) perspective.  But then "Faith" is not the same as religious faith, however much the widespread use of "faith" as a synonym  for "religion" by politicians and the media tends to obscure this.  A religious faith is one sort of faith, but many people take their values from secular faiths -- environmentalism, feminism, socialism, libertarianism -- instead of or alongside religious ones.   And "true believers" in all these creeds do not fit easily into the mainstream (and incredibly narrow) political debate that makes up the rest of the daily diet on Today.  An expanded Thought For The Day might just help to revitalize not just the "God slot" but the wider public debate in this country.  

Having said that, judging by his offering this morning the current Bishop of Liverpool probably shares more moral assumptions in common with the head of the British Humanist Association than with his predecessor of a hundred years ago.  That's my thought for the day.

19 comments

HendersonDenis's picture

You can be an atheist, agnostic or theist in your worldview, but faith is part of it in its deep recesses somewhere The more apparent faith articles of theism are often pooh poohed by certain reflecting atheists as an anathema, when in fact their axioms of causality, realism and material naturalism (as some, but not all, assert) are taken on faith. E.g., you can not prove, by the scientific method, that truth exists outside of phenomena that can not be accessed by the scientific method. Another way of saying this is that the verification principle of logical positivists that, "only that which can be verified by logical analysis or objective empiricism is true or meaningful" is a statement that can not be verified as true, therefore by its own standard it is false or meaningless. http://www.squidoo.com/best-blenders-reviews

Rose222's picture

If I understand correctly you're saying that all that is accepted but not provable is an example of faith, therefore atheists are in fact living there lives with articles of faith. A real world example could be.

martinchoops's picture

@Nelson

I take issue with the statement: "Non-belief is not, in itself, a faith position" . If it is said with supporting reasons, it is not a reasonable assertion (since these reasons are ultimately based on a faith in a particular form of reason as being true and reliable).

If you say it because you are a: physical, reductionist, objective materialist, methodological nihilist,... then there are assumptions that underlie those worldviews, these assumptions are often a prioristic, i.e., they are axioms taken on faith as self evident to the particular worldviewer.

All of the above is to say that a rational/reasonable atheist bases his rejection of belief in God for axioms taken ultimately in faith.

You can be an atheist, agnostic or theist in your worldview, but faith is part of it in its deep recesses somewhere The more apparent faith articles of theism are often pooh poohed by certain unreflecting atheists as an anathema, when in fact their axioms of causality, realism and material naturalism (as some, but not all, assert) are taken on faith. E.g., you can not prove, by the scientific method, that truth exists outside of phenomena that can not be accessed by the scientific method. Another way of saying this is that the verification principle of logical positivists that, "only that which can be verified by logical analysis or objective empiricism is true or meaningful" is a statement that can not be verified as true, therefore by its own standard it is false or meaningless.

You can not assert that your position as a theist/atheist with discursive/dianoetic reasoning is a real demonstrable truth, you can only assert it by intuition. You just know God does/doesn't exist.

mcmac's picture

Is this the old chestnut "atheism is just another religion" dressed up with some convoluted language?

If I understand correctly you're saying that all that is accepted but not provable is an example of faith, therefore atheists are in fact living there lives with articles of faith. A real world example could be;

I can't prove my wife exists, therefore if I want to claim I don't have faith in my life I should ignore her? A dangerous position to take my friend.

mcmac's picture

Is this the old chestnut "atheism is just another religion" dressed up with some convoluted language?

If I understand correctly you're saying that all that is accepted but not provable is an example of faith, therefore atheists are in fact living there lives with articles of faith. A real world example could be;

I can't prove my wife exists, therefore if I want to claim I don't have faith in my life I should ignore her? A dangerous position to take my friend.

Keir's picture

Duplicate deleted

Keir's picture

There is no single religious perspective, it's true. It's also true that any Bishop of Liverpool has more in common with the head of the British Humanist Association that he has with Christianity.

What will never be heard on the BBC is expression of the above viewpoint. Not until it provides as morally required of it by collection of licence fees.

Livers's picture

Open it up. Celebrate fellowship, community, family. Then perhaps we'll start to value these things more.

TFTD is great, it makes you think more broadly about the human condition -- and that has to include secular voices.

Livers's picture

Open it up. Celebrate fellowship, community, family. Then perhaps we'll start to value these things more.

TFTD is great, it makes you think more broadly about the human condition -- and that has to include secular voices.

mcmac's picture

Hi Eko,

Not sure what the split is, but it's very common to hear non christian speakers on TFTD. Most times though, if they weren't announced as Jewish, Muslim, Sikh before hand, you wouldn't be able to tell from the content. It's a shame, I'd like a bit of good solid religious dogmatism and bigotry to liven up my mornings.

mcmac's picture

I'm a non believer, and sure enough it's not a faith position.

I'd prefer that TFTD stayed as it is. It's more interesting to hear a different viewpoint from one's own. People who only want to hear reflections of their own ideas are, in my experience, a bit thick.

Herbert's picture

Exactly my view. And as an atheist I must say if there were to be a god Rabbi Blue's wouldn't be a bad one.

Roddy Bonaccorsi's picture

This new format is a bit of a bag of tits eh?

Will certainly take a bit of getting used to.

sir michael's picture

"Non-belief is not, in itself, a faith position."

This just in; Nelson Jones has proof that there is no such thing as god!

AndrewR's picture

Faith:
noun
[mass noun]
1) complete trust or confidence in someone or something: this restores one’s faith in politicians
2) strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof: bereaved people who have shown supreme faith
[count noun] a particular religion: the Christian faith
[count noun] a strongly held belief: men with strong political faiths
So you see; Mr Jones is correct in his assertion that non-belief; given that it is the lack of or absence of belief, is not a faith position. It is not the assertion that God does not exist. It is certainly not the assertion that there is proof for the non-existence of God. As I am sure you know, there is no way to prove a negative. Non-belief is simply a lack of belief. Not a faith position.
I am not sure why it was necessary to comment on that particular aspect of the article in any case. It would surely be more constructive to start at the crux in any criticism and go from there.

Keir's picture

There is no such thing as non-belief, or absence of belief, about theism, for sentient beings. Everyone has a world view, everyone believes something about the nature of existence, even if it is agnosticism. And everyone is agnostic, in terms of formal proof. But, just as we can have faith, based on experience, that the 49 bus will go to Clapham and not Pimlico, or that the Conservatives will win the next election, or that Kevin Pieterson will score another century in his next innings, we can have faith that a deity exists, or does not exist, on the basis of experience. Experience is personal. Your experience is not my experience, and vice versa. So, to a large extent, evangelisation for either atheism or theism is futile, and resistance to it is futile. This, quite apart from the human capacity to say what one does not mean.

And people often allege that there is more than one form of Christianity; it seems, from what they say, as though Jesus of Nazareth was crucified for not having the first clue what he was talking about, contradicting himself a myriad ways until everyone was so confused and vexed that they put him out of his misery.

jankaas's picture

the Rt Rev James Jones did a very good job illustrating how morally reprehensible the British were as a homogenous Christian nation, compared to today's Godless rabble.

i do think TFTD is one of Radio 4's better efforts at comedy, no need to spoil it with secularists. although some of those are also hilarious, again without perhaps meaning to be...

Eko's picture

I am avid radio listener and i totally agree with the suggestion of opening up Thought for the Day to non-believers and other religious groups. So far all i have heard is Christians on TFD, I have no issue with the Christian Faith, but some diversity would be very welcome.

Daniel S's picture

It's a shame they don't let us voice our opinions. I can't imagine anyone would be happy with a programme called "Politics Thought of the Day" where they only allowed left-wing opinions to be heard.

When Giles Fraser talks about political correctness, what he really means is "how dare anyone challenge my privilege."

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