Nelson Jones

Belief, disbelief and beyond belief

The atheist saints of Assisi

Does the inter-faith movement now officially include atheism?

By Nelson Jones Published 18 October 2011 13:21

A quartet of leading atheist intellectuals, including the dense French theorist Julia Kristeva and our own AC Grayling, were due to bejoining the Pope at a major http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/news/detail/articolo/9013/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onkeypress="window.open(this.href);return false;">inter-faith event in Assisi next week. The gathering is designed to celebrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of John Paul II's 1986 World Prayer Day, a colourful event in which the late pontiff was joined by, among others, Archbishop Robert Runcie, the Dalai Lama and a handful of tribal shamans to pray for world peace. There were no atheists on that occasion, though. Nor Miss World, as far as I'm aware.

For Pope Benedict, there may be a tactical reason for the inclusion this time of non-believers in any kind of God. His predecessor was criticised heavily by some traditionalists for praying alongside representatives of other faiths, especially non-monotheistic ones. To this day, dissident Catholics enjoy circulating pictures of John Paul being "blessed" by Native American chiefs and voodoo witchdoctors. The then Cardinal Ratzinger was one the only leading Vatican official who didn't travel to Assisi, and later wrote that the meeting gave a "false impression of common ground that does not exist in reality".

His own writings and speeches have tended to stress the differences between faiths rather than the similarities. He has even suggested that inter-religious dialogue is impossible since different religions can never agree on the truth. There have been some tricky inter-faith moments since he became pope -- most notably in the wake of a speech in Regensburg in 2006 in which he appeared to criticise Islam. This year's Assisi gathering is being described as a "pilgrimage" rather than a prayer event. And what better way could there be to indicate the non-theological nature of the meeting than to invite atheists?

There are signs, too, that Pope Benedict XVI finds the company of non-believers quite congenial. He is, after all, a man who relishes intellectual debate and is known to be uncomfortable with the woolly, feelgood platitudes that constitute many inter-faith discussions. Atheists might liven things up a bit. Perhaps he hopes that some will prove to be allies.

"The pope wanted the atheists in Assisi," said Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, who leads the Pontifical Council for Culture, which now includes a division dubbed the Court of Gentiles dedicated to fostering good relations with humanists. Ravasi went on to explain the move as part of the pope's ongoing project "to reassert the importance of the relationship between faith and reason." The problem for the Church in modern Europe, he said, wasn't atheist thought so much as the general atmosphere of "indifference, dullness, lack of questioning, banality" that characterises modern culture. This echoes recent comments the pope made in Germany, when he suggested that agnostics who struggle with the question of God are closer to the kingdom of God than "routine" Catholics whose faith is purely conventional.

Earlier this year, the Vatican launched a series of international seminars with the aim of finding common ground with secularists on the big questions facing modern societies. This may be indicative of a wider trend in which atheists and agnostics are beginning to claim a place in the growing world of inter-faith activities. Rory Fenton, for example, recently argued that there is a "gaping atheist-shaped hole in the interfaith movement".

But it would be going too far to suggest that we are witnessing a Catholic/atheist love-in. For one thing, the pope has regularly denounced "atheist extremism", even associating it with the rise of Nazism. For many of today's most prominent atheists, meanwhile, Joseph Ratzinger remains Enemy Number One, "a leering old villain in a frock" as Richard Dawkins once notoriously described him. Everywhere he goes these days, he is followed by demonstrators, mostly avowed atheists, objecting to his views on contraception or calling for his arrest. Grayling himself last year linked Pope Benedict with the CEO of Goldman Sachs, "each heading organisations publicly acknowledged to have done immense harm and yet neither is in any danger of having to pay for it."

It would have been interesting to see whether AC said anything like that in the Pope's presence. Sadly, it's now being reported that he has pulled out of the event. He now says that he had not realised that it was "a minor event and what they wanted was these guests to accompany the pope on a pilgrimage." This is rather puzzling, given that the event he was invited to was officially described as "a panel discussion" and may not -- for the atheists at least -- have included a trip to Assisi at all. It may be a simple matter of miscommunication, or perhaps Grayling had other reasons for pulling out. The other atheists, though, will probably still be there.

UPDATE 3pm: This blog was updated to reflect the news that AC Grayling had pulled out of the event.

Tags: Pope Benedict XVI Catholic Church Atheism

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31 comments

Wed, 2011-10-19 06:15 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

@Daniele: I can't understand why any atheist would have anything in common with a pope!

Both think they know something that is unknowable. They've got the same delusional sense of what they think they know.

Fri, 2011-10-21 21:53 — Daniele1

The link between atheism and the Nazis is dubious.
One thing is certain, the Pope , the Vatican and the Catholic church are continuously linked to Fascism throughout the 20th century.
On the terrible morning of Franco's victory in Spain, the first telegram of congratulation to Franco was from the Pope himself.The collaboration between the Catholic church and Fascist dictatorships has been a unique and sustained one, in Spain , in Mussolini's Italy and later in the 70's in Chili, Argentina etc..
Without the support of the Catholic church (and the CIA) it is doubtful that these appalling regimes (as bad as Gadafi's ) would have survived so long.

Thu, 2011-10-20 00:20 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

'Is there a collective noun for a group of extreme right-wingers?'

kier

Wed, 2011-10-19 08:51 — Freeman2

Mr Divine - I must be a strange atheist then. My position is that there is no evidence and therefore I do not believe. How is that a delusion? A delusion is: there is no evidence, therefore I do believe.

Wed, 2011-10-19 08:54 — Freeman2

Sir Michael writes, 'That's right Freeman, associate millions of Catholics with the crimes of a few.'

You seem to have missed the point that I said 'many'. The evidence of paedophilia among the priesthood is there, despite the church's intense efforts to cover it up. And what is this reference to Stalin and Mao? Where have i said I'm a Marxist-Leninist?

Wed, 2011-10-19 08:58 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Freeman; It depends what you regard as 'no evidence'. If you 'know' there is nothing at the 'end' of infinity then tell me how do you know this? What is the evidence that you know that there is no evidence?

Wed, 2011-10-19 08:59 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Freeman: When you say you don't 'believe' what do you mean, 'think' or 'know'?

Wed, 2011-10-19 12:18 — Freeman2

Mr Divine: Are you going to provide 'evidence' or 'no evidence' that will enable me to 'think' or 'know'? Otherwise I'll have to think or know I'm dealing with a timewaster.

Wed, 2011-10-19 12:50 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Freeman: What evidence do you have that there isn't some deity outside our universe?

What am I asking you is, " Do you/the human race know everything there is to know about everything?'

When I mean everything I mean everything.

I'm not saying there is a God or there isn't one, I am saying how do you know there isn't one if you don't know everything.

Do you see where I am coming from? take 5 seconds NOW and Think a little bit about infinity, of time and space.

You're thinking, you're thinking...nearly five seconds of infinity thinking. What do you know?

Wed, 2011-10-19 13:09 — Keir

Is there a collective noun for a group of extreme right-wingers?

Wed, 2011-10-19 13:24 — Sir Michael (not verified)

@Freeman - your reference to Marxism/Leninism? Your antireligious beliefs mean that it is perfectly reasonable to assume you are a tyranical mass murderer in waitin, doesn't it?

If not, why is it reasonable for you to start lecturing downtown dave on pedophilia when he said he wasn't a pedophile?

The whole "I am religious"... "Then you are a pedophile enabler!" shtick is quite simply Daily Express/Mail type bigotry. An irrational hatred for the differences of another, attempted to be justified by looking for the crimes of those who might be in that demographic.

Unless you can come up with a scientific explanation as to why belief in a deity leads to pedophilia then do not pontificiate about "evidence" here.

Tue, 2011-10-18 13:41 — downtown dave (not verified)

The diversity of religions (or lack of) and governments will not endure. The time will come when Jesus will rule over the nations. http://atheistlegitimacy.blogspot.com/

Tue, 2011-10-18 13:42 — swatantra nandanwar

The Pope may be dead right about agnostics; and I've got a feelinhg that AC swings boths ways on the 'God Question' thats why Bendict enjoys his company and conversaton. And if the Pope can fix AC to RC, then it will be a feather in his cap.
Nothing like the fervour of a convert. Ask Widdecombe and Tony.

Tue, 2011-10-18 14:29 — jankaas (not verified)

will there be a stall selling babies at this event?

as for downtown dave; Jesus just told me that your website is nonsense and He's cancelled His 2nd coming as a result. just think that you are personally responsible for the demise of humanity. what were you thinking you foolish boy?

Tue, 2011-10-18 15:14 — Sir Michael (not verified)

As it should. It is time atheism was taken seriously and atheists be given their due in the world.

Hopefully this will work both ways and will enable the more vocal and aggressive atheists to have a less totalitarian agenda with their own respective faiths.

Tue, 2011-10-18 15:24 — priscillalane

The latest scandal centres on baby-trafficking by Church, government officials and clinics over several decades.This should be an interesting meeting. I suppose the Pope thinks if you cant beat them -join them..

Tue, 2011-10-18 15:38 — Broga

As an atheist I would keep well clear of associating with the Pope and his acolytes. The head of an organisation apparently infested with paedophiles, corrupted by sleazy values and with a sick record of hiding its crimes seems to be someone to be avoided.

Fri, 2011-10-21 11:26 — Keir

How come the Pope associates atheism with the Nazis? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

There's no paganism more wacky than the Vatican's. Really.

Tue, 2011-10-18 16:01 — Nelson Jones1

Correction should be up soon but it now seems Grayling has pulled out, claiming it was "a minor event" and that he didn't want anything to do with a "pilgrimage".

Tue, 2011-10-18 16:06 — Broga

Nelson Jones: Well, thank God for that bit of news about Grayling.

Tue, 2011-10-18 17:50 — John Dale (not verified)

Very glad to hear about Grayling pulling out. All his appearance would have achieved would be to lend an undeserved air of authenticity to the event.

Tue, 2011-10-18 17:55 — Daniele1

I am relieved too!
I couldn't believe any self respecting atheist would have anything to do with a pope! Broga has summed it up nicely.
When you realise what the Vatican and the papacy were up to in the 60's and 70's, you can't help feeling disgusted by anybody willingly associating themselves with the Catholic church.Murder and grand theft was nothing for "God's banker" and its clique of mafia and fascist agents.
Anybody who isn't convinced should read "In the name of God" by David Yallop.
Today god knows what schemes the Vatican is involved with.All the secrets are back in the box. All we know is that this pope and the previous pope have protected paedophiles, continue to deny women contraception and spread lies about HIV among other crimes.
I can't understand why any atheist would have anything in common with a pope!

Thu, 2011-10-20 16:14 — Kenisnotthemayor

How come the Pope associates atheism with the Nazis? Hitler said, "I am, always have been & always will be, a Catholic". Himmler may have experimented with wacky paganisms but Hitler was the boss.

Sun, 2011-10-23 08:23 — Arnault Vuitton (not verified)

Pope Benedict made the RIGHT decision. This meeting casts a heretical impression on the Roman Catholic Church as if it is on equal footing with other faiths and religions. You may disagree but Traditional Conservative Catholics DO NOT like this at all.

Remember the Buddha they placed on the altar next to the Cross in 1986? Remember the witches and voodoo shamans blessing the Pope of Rome? Disgraceful and utterfly deplorable.

NO WONDER Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger at the time did not attend this event-----and with the lack of joined prayer----it calms many conservative Catholics but still cast disapproval for attending such event.

AC Grayling, the Atheist professor was wise to remove his invitation from the event. He thought he was going to get a chance to debate and discuss with the Pope as if it was a discussion panel and was clearly dissapointed to learn that it was a pilgrimage event dedicated to the idea of social peace, not doctrinal dialogue.

Tue, 2011-10-18 22:19 — Freeman2

downtown dave writes, 'The diversity of religions (or lack of) and governments will not endure. The time will come when Jesus will rule over the nations.'

Let's just hope he's not a paedophile like many of his representatives on Earth seem to be. Best get a Criminal Records Bureau clearance.

Sun, 2012-02-05 18:59 — Benedict

On the terrible morning of Franco's victory in Spain, the first telegram of congratulation to Franco was from the Pope himself.The collaboration between the Catholic church and Fascist dictatorships has been a unique and sustained one, in Spain , in Mussolini's Italy and later in the 70's in Chili, Argentina etc.. http://www.diykitchenremodeling.net/

Wed, 2011-10-26 10:28 — Drakula

I think that Grayling did the right thing no doubt about it. So why is the Pope putting on this liberal and tolerant front?

Because I think his institution is very rapidly losing credibility. True Christianity, I believe is the philosophy of Jeshua (Jesus).[NB. read Thomas Jefferson] He was a philosopher like Socrates and Plato nothing more nothing less.

Jeshua has an earthly father Tiberius Pantera and his grave is found in Germany. Also Jeshua's body has been found in 'the Jesus family tomb' outside Jerusalem and his DNA matches his mother Maria.

So there we have it in 325AD a political religion had been created based on absolute lies!!! But the RC church wants to keep the myths alive for as long as possible, there are buildings to upkeep, nuns to be fed, monsignor's lifestyles to be kept and a whole host of others on the gravy train.

I say bring on the secular renaissance despite our politicians and governments etc.I say we have nothing to lose and a bright future to look forward to.

Wed, 2011-10-19 00:06 — Sir Michael (not verified)

That's right Freeman, associate millions of Catholics with the crimes of a few.

Why don't you accept your own "responsibility" for the actions of Stalin or Mao if you live by the logic that entire groups must be held responsible for the behaviour of one or two? I'll tell you why, because that would be absurd.

Just because they were atheists like you doesn't make you any more inclined to be a despotic tyrant. Doesn't it also follow that Catholic pedophiles are pedophiles, and that it is perfectly possible to be a Catholic without molesting children?

You need reasons you need to justify your own hatred, but they are irrational and if you were capable of critical thinking you would see that.

NOTE; I am an atheist. I am just very troubled by the antireligious fascism which appears to be taking over atheism, which brings my own beliefs into disrepute.

Wed, 2011-10-19 01:16 — Daniele1

SirMichael:
It isn't a question of individual Catholics. I have met some priests who were terrific individuals. We are talking about an institution, an established church which is responsible for awful crimes.
Tonight I have learnt of the shocking story of the "stolen children" in Spain.Amazingly this is the first time I heard of this horrendous scandal. This is about the organised traffic of babies taken from their mothers at birth in hospitals staffed by nuns. They estimate that more than 300 000 people have been sold to adoptive parents by the Catholic church with the complicity of Catholic doctors. It all started with the victory of fascist Franco over the Republicans in 1939.The Catholic church was supporting Franco all the way and they started stealing the children of Republican people to give them to good fascist Catholic families.Documents were systematically falsified and the parents were registered as the birth parents. Today thousands of people are looking for their real parents and parents for their children.This went on until the 80's even after Franco because by then the Catholic church , through their nun nurses were still coercing single mothers to give their babies away and when they failed they would tell the mothers the baby had died, even keeping a dead baby in a fridge to show them it was dead.I believe this practice went on in Ireland too.
Now how EVIL is that? hundreds of nuns and priests participated in this horrendous crime.
To this day no one has been prosecuted and the Church continues to protect those who were involved.
Would you call this program anti religious fascism, because it dared tell the truth about what this church is capable of?
And sir michael, the truly shocking thing about paedophile priests is not that they were paedophiles but that they were PROTECTED by their bishops who systematically destroyed evidence , ordered by the Vatican to do so "to save the reputation of the Church". One American bishop has just been arrested and charged with destroying evidence.
It is the Catholic Church which is rotten to the core, not the deluded souls who still believe it is a force for good in the world.

Wed, 2011-10-19 01:22 — Daniele1

By the way, the program I am referring to was tonight on BB2 at 9 and was called "this world: Spain's stolen babies". Must be seen to be believed.
Heart wrenching for any woman who has given birth.

Wed, 2011-10-19 02:10 — Sir Michael (not verified)

No, I wouldn't call that anti religious fascism. I would call that journalism. They went and found an institutionalized problem within the church, that people involved in that must answer for up to and including the Pope.

What they did not do was casually throw words like "pedophile" around while talking about religion in general, did they?