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Iran Watch, part 4.
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Tags: Iran Watch Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Israel Iran
If you're going to start on Israel's policy about migrants you might as well start on everything else; H Sherwood in the Guardian did a piece about cruelty to chickens in Israeli chicken farms - (is there nothing these evil people won't stoop to?). Of course, it turns out chicken welfare is about the same as in most western European countries but we're not concerned about those.
We are ANGRY ABOUT ISREAL and find ourseleves strangely unmoved by the the vastly worse things that go on elsewhere.
We don't ask ourselves why this is.
Why is it Mariella? Did you once look upon Jews as you you now look upon palestinians?
Have Jews got too strong and let you down?
sigh...fine, be like that Screw Youlia. am bored of this one-way insultathon.
let's see what you made of my simple question are "Zionist regime" and Israel" the same thing. actually let's see how you can't even repeat it correctly, and have turned it into something entirely different;
i said "Zionist regime" and you've morphed that into "Zionism". what a dishonest thing to do. and why i am even surprised you do this...
so you then answer a question i didn't pose to get your answer;
"Zionism + Israel - same thing"
wrong Screw Youlia, even your clumsy re-write denies the reality that 20% of Israelis are not Jewish. or maybe you would like to wipe them out?
i have to ask; why do you not care about honesty and your personal integrity?
I am beginning to think the mindless trolling and pathetic personal attacks in theses forums must be a ploy by NS. It certainly has persuaded me to buy the paper editions. I'm sick of this b*llshit.
"This weeks Islamic Terror - like talking about the weather??"
thanks for that list, showing yet again what a simpleton or fascist you are. another simple question for you Screw Youlia;
what religion would you expect the perpetrators and victims in those Islamic countries to follow?
B) Church of the Latter Day Saints
I agree with writeon. It is important not to get sucked into pointless rants which have no basis in fact. Even worse than that the rants are not even original.
I found your contirubutions fascinating. I am sure many of the readers would like to know since you are a part of Israeli society why the Left in general as well as the Peace Now movement seems to be completely marginalised. I wonder how it is possible for somebody like EHud Barak who was completely behind Rabin could then be involved in the masterminding of the Gaza war.
In short, I suppose I am asking: WHERE IS THE ISRAELI SPRING???
That is truly amazing: I now have some Zionist thug imposter using my name. My God, that really smacks of desparation.
So there you have it, they cannot put forward any grounds for sensible debate and have chosen instead to use my name under false pretexts.
It seems the Zionist lobby will stop at nothing to silence me.
"WHERE IS THE ISRAELI SPRING???"
ROFL LOLLOLL - this is so funny.... funiest thing I have read on these forums, shows She has not a clue about Israel or the society...
Mariella...Israel is FREE!!!! Didnt you know??? Gay have a parade each year, Women have the same rights as men? The Ex president of Israel was being charged in a court by an Arab judge.... that's freedom...
BTW it ain an Arab Spring...the Islamic Winter that is befalling those countries...
I suspect even if you received an accurate translation from a Farsi language expert and scholar, you would still offer your own version of what you think it means. I wonder how you can claim to offer an opinion on the matter when by your admission you do not even speak the language.
As for your last point, it is a non sequitur!!!!
@ Julia Harris - Since 1948, almost 10 million Muslims have died at the hands of fellow Muslims
On Iran watch 2, you claimed 8m deaths. Another 2m in the last week? Where?
- Double standards abound. As the Israeli envoy Dan Gillerman said
yes, he's the suave UN ambassador who seethed when Gazans elected Hamas, and famously said that it wasn't democracy. Well, another European immigrant to Palestine,
- Another question we need to ask, would you feel comfortable if the Taliban or Al Qaeda acquired nukes?
No, and I don't feel comfortable with Israel having acquited nukes.Are they any better?
Pretending to be Mariella to spread their poison just shows they are in a losing battle. That is truly pathetic
... so you say God and Mohammed were pedophile rapists. And anyone who thinks you are a bit unhindged is a bigot.
You should be a space cadet at NASA. Except you'd fail the psychiatric assessments.
@ willoyen - Show me where I said 8m or 2m, I will give you £1,000, liar.
Hamas election where totally corrupt and down the barrel of a Shot Gun, will they ever loose power...NO WAY, not free, not fair.
So despite everything that Sir M said, you casually dismiss his arguments and revert to type.
There is no point in trying to refute your arguments because what you have said is so patently absurd and illogical.
LET ME ASK YOU A DIRECT QUESTION JJ@
Which camp do you fall into@
Camp One: accept a two state solution
Camp Two: SLog it out, keep inventing enemies and colonisng land
@Julia Harris - Israel is FREE!!!! Didnt you know??? Gay have a parade each year, Women have the same rights as men?
- homophobia started in the land of Israel. Did not the lord god of israel destroy the cities of the plain just because a few hapless gays were committing sodomy in Sodom and whatever they got up to in Gomorrah?
Women's rights! yes, that's why Haaretz reports vicious abuse of very young girls who are showing their legs. Don't forget, stoning of women comes from the Jews. Why, it even entered English from the bible: 'let him... cast the first stone'! I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't still practice it in the privacy of your own back yards, on your illegal settlements!
@Julia - Hamas election where totally corrupt and down the barrel of a Shot Gun
Really? so they must have intimidated the international observers and monitors who concluded that they were fair and carried out properly. And you call me a liar?
Monthly Jihad Report - February, 2012
Jihad Attacks: 160
Countries : 22
Religions: - 5
Dead Bodies: - 783
Critically Injured: - 1329
Mindless trolling and pathetic personal insults is how Israel has managed to aevade, obfuscate and avoid taking any real steps which would lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state.
I forget to mention that the Middle East Forum which he cites has AIPAC members on its board.
I REST MY CASE!!!!!!
Recent achievements by MEFEF recipients include:
Challenging UNRWA: Sarah Stern organized a letter, signed by 85 members of Congress, protesting U.S. taxpayer contributions to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, whose funds previously went to Palestinian terrorist groups.
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children
Pew Global: 51% of Palestinians support Osama bin Laden
Pew Global: 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
This is what happened at Deir Yassin which several lsraeli leaders apologised for.
Early in the morning of Friday, April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. It was several weeks before the end of the British Mandate. The village lay outside of the area that the United Nations recommended be included in a future Jewish State. Deir Yassin had a peaceful reputation and was even said by a Jewish newspaper to have driven out some Arab militants. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and one plan, kept secret until years afterwards, called for it to be destroyed and the residents evacuated to make way for a small airfield that would supply the beleaguered Jewish residents of Jerusalem.
By noon over 100 people, half of them women and children, had been systematically murdered. Four commandos died at the hands of resisting Palestinians using old Mausers and muskets. Twenty-five male villagers were loaded into trucks, paraded through the Zakhron Yosef quarter in Jerusalem, and then taken to a stone quarry along the road between Givat Shaul and Deir Yassin and shot to death. The remaining residents were driven to Arab East Jerusalem.
That evening the Irgunists and the Sternists escorted a party of foreign correspondents to a house at Givat Shaul, a nearby Jewish settlement founded in 1906. Over tea and cookies they amplified the details of the operation and justified it, saying Deir Yassin had become a concentration point for Arabs, including Syrians and Iraqis, planning to attack the western suburbs of Jerusalem. They said that 25 members of the Haganah militia had reinforced the attack and claimed that an Arabic-speaking Jew had warned the villagers over a loudspeaker from an armored car. This was duly reported in The New York Times on April 10.
A final body count of 254 was reported by The New York Times on April 13, a day after they were finally buried. By then the leaders of the Haganah had distanced themselves from having participated in the attack and issued a statement denouncing the dissidents of Irgun and the Stern Gang, just as they had after the attack on the King David Hotel in July 1946. A 1987 study undertaken by Birzeit University's Center for Research and Documentation of Palestinian Society found "the numbers of those killed does not exceed 120".
The Haganah leaders admitted that the massacre "disgraced the cause of Jewish fighters and dishonored Jewish arms and the Jewish flag." They played down the fact that their militia had reinforced the terrorists' attack, even though they did not participate in the barbarism and looting during the subsequent "mopping up" operations.
They also played down the fact that, in Begin's words, "Deir Yassin was captured with the knowledge of the Haganah and with the approval of its commander" as a part of its "plan for establishing an airfield."
Ben Gurion even sent an apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But this horrific act served the future State of Israel well. According to Begin:
Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of "Irgun butchery," were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated.
Of about 144 houses, 10 were dynamited. The cemetery was later bulldozed and, like hundreds of other Palestinian villages to follow, Deir Yassin was wiped off the map. By September, Orthodox Jewish immigrants from Poland, Rumania, and Slovakia were settled there over the objections of Martin Buber, Cecil Roth and other Jewish leaders, who believed that the site of the massacre should be left uninhabited. The center of the village was renamed Givat Shaul Bet. As Jerusalem expanded, the land of Deir Yassin became part of the city and is now known simply as the area between Givat Shaul and the settlement of Har Nof on the western slopes of the mountain.
The massacre of Palestinians at Deir Yassin is one of the most significant events in 20th-century Palestinian and Israeli history. This is not because of its size or its brutality, but because it stands as the starkest early warning of a calculated depopulation of over 400 Arab villages and cities and the expulsion of over 850.000 Palestinian inhabitants to make room for survivors of the Holocaust and other Jews from the rest of the world.
Iranians made the highest number of visits to "immoral sites" on Ashura Day.
Pakistan ranked No. 1 in searches for "child sex," "animal sex," "rape sex," "camel sex," "dog sex," "rape video."
Google survey finds mostly Muslim states seek access to sex-related websites (they rank 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 & 8 in the top 10).
4 out of 5 Middle-Eastern women are sexually abused between the ages of 3 and 6 by family members.
Pew survey finds all 7 Muslim-majority nations polled have a negative opinion of Jews (2-9% positive).
Nearly 1 in 3 people in the Arab world are illiterate, including nearly half of all women.
Muslims in Denmark make up 5% of the population but receive 40% of social-welfare outlays.
Homosexual relationships, acts or behavior illegal in 36 Islamic countries. 10 impose the death penalty for homosexuals.
A rough estimate shows that close to half of all Muslims in the world are inbred.
Muslim countries have the highest obesity rates among women and 70% of women in the Gulf states are obese.
Almost a 1/4 of Muslims say they would only donate an organ if it was going to another Muslim
25% of UK mosques have extremist literature calling for the beheading of lapsed Muslims etc.
Muslims less than 1% of the US population, yet constitute more than 80% of terror convictions.
In terms of cultural/tribal/religious danger to women, 4 of the 5 most dangerous countries are Muslim majorities.
Five of the nations ranked least peaceful in the world by the Global Peace Index are Islamic countries.
8 of the top 10 persecutors of Christians are Islamic countries. Of the top 30 countries, only 7 have a source other than Islam
Africans taken (or died in the process of being taken) as slaves by Muslims is estimated to be higher than 140 million.
1.25 million white European Christians were captured and sold into the Muslim slave trade between the 16th and 19th century.
The Islamic slave trade still flourishes in Muslim countries. There are over half a million slaves in Mauritania alone.
I think a two state resolution isn't a solution at all, and anyway, it's arguably too late for that option. Too many "settlements" on the West Bank have seen to that. Two states, one tremendously powerful and economically successful, next to what ammounts to not really a state, but, something like "reservations" or even "ghettos", isn't a recipe for peace, but instability. Two states is dead.
That leaves the one-state option, or nightmare, at least for Israeli nationalism. One state where the Israeli, or Jewish, minority ethnic group, dominates the Palestinian, Muslim majority, not an option I'd choose for Israel. Israeli democracy, (or what passes for democrcy there; remember the Palestinian majority has been "artificially" excluded from the democratic process by their refugee status, so Israeli democracy is, arguably, "rigged" in favour of Israeli Jews), cannot survive, as an exclusively Jewish state attempting to dominate a restive and growing Palestinian majority within the borders of Greater Israel, no matter how much Israeli nationalists might wish to conjure them away or pretend the Palestinian majority doesn't exist.
Israel is not going to pull back from the occupied West Bank and dismantel the illegal settlements. This means the West Bank cannot form the basis of a viable state, and neither can Gaza. So, the two states is dead. But how one gets the Israeli nationalists to accept that they have created a one-state option, by destroying the two-state option, is a mamoth task.
Israeli ultra-nationalists want perpetual conflict because this is a way to perpetuate their dominance of Israeli politics, with all the financial benefits that brings, and, because conflict is a way to delay the assimilation of the Israeli people into the dominant culture of the Middle East, through inter-marriage, over the decades, which is usually how this happens and is perfectly well-understood and historically documented by sociology and anthropology. It's perfectly natural. The minority is absorbed into the dominant culture and comes to resemble it. Assimilation rules.
Yet, this process, Israel becoming just another minority ethnic grouping, or "folk" in the huge ethnic melting-pot of the Middle East, is a nightmare for the Israeli right and the myths, dogma, and ideology of Zionism as interpreted by the extremist nationalists, who still dream of a "pure" Israel for Jews, exclusively and for ever.
So long as the Palestinian people continue to be denied by their leaders the freedoms of speech, religion, assembly and the press, the election cannot be considered truly free and democratic.
While democratic outcomes are preferable to the alternatives, the rest of the world is not obligated to have a relationship with elected leaders whose policies and views are dangerous
Isn't the primary value of the one state solution as a bargaining chip for the Palestinians? I really don't see Israel accepting such a solution due to the inbuilt obsolescence of the Jewish state that option would necessarily entail (given the demographic reality). On the other hand, if the Palestinians seriously pursued this option with international support, it might just give the Israelis pause for thought and possibly lead to them reconsidering a viable two state solution as the lesser of two evils from their perspective.
The Israeli Spring has been documented by the Economist Magazine. In each of the major cities in Israel, there is an Israeli Spring Occupation Movement.
Could somebody please explain the nature of the Israeli poltical system which does not seem to be truly democratic or representative of its people. Time and time again retrograde right wing zealots such as Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon Benjamin Netanyahu are returned to office. Let us not forget too in the case of Ariel Sharon that he was directly implicated in the Sabra Shatille Massacre in the Palestinian Refugee Camps. Israel society must be incredibly warped to elect a leader of this kind to office.
Go do your reseach properly for calcium waves with single gamete reproduction.
So there is more than one conclusion. But your tiny mind cant hold more than one idea at a time and can only partially hold one idea.
You are pathetic.
Of course one can look at the conflict rationally and see what's in Israel's "objective" interests, and so on.
But the conflict isn't really about ethnicity or religion, in my opinion. It's about Power, specifically military power. And, for now, the Israelis have nearly all of it compared to the Palestinians.
Though this military dominance, and their huge nuclear arsenal, is, perhaps as much of a curse as a blessing. This kind of power rarely last for ever, and then what? A land that was taken by the sword, and is held by the sword, can also, eventually, be taken back by the sword. And this is the lesson the Isrealis are teaching the Arabs.
But the Israeli right-wing do have a strategy, or "solution" to the two-state dilemma and the demographic time-bomb that's ticking under Israel's "Jewish" character. They dream of driving, or ethnically cleansing the Palestinians right out of Greater Israel, one way or another, and war is a great "cover" for such a project.
That it's also illegal, outrageous, barbaric, and would destroy Israel's "soul" in the process, and ultimately Israel itself, doesn't seem to concern them unduly.
@Mariella. You're doing a heroic job. agree with all your arguments! with writeon too. Eventually a one-state solution will evolve, and so Israel as a Jewish immigrant colony will cease to exist in its present form. As for Iran, nobody has done more to promote their nuclear weapons than Israel and the West. First, the US helped the shah in nuke development. It was Ayatollah Khomeini who terminated that. However, if the up-start West puts a country with a long history, great culture and exquisite art, literature and religions, constantly under threat and blackmail, sanctions etc what better than to join the club: have nukes to assert yourself, whatever the regime.
The west knows very well Iran wouldn’t use them against Israel. The Israelis know it. But Iran must not be allowed to have the power that nuclear weapons bring; it must not be allowed to challenge Israel-US might. It is these latter who give orders in the ME. PS Has Pakistan attacked India? Yet?
'I represent peace freedom and justice' and I also have a Batman outfit which I wear
You lose credibility when you launch personal attacks on other commentators such as Mariella.
Your analysis of the situation is very biased and not objective. You talk a lot about the rhetoric in Iran about muslims wanting to eliminate jews and destroy Israel but neglect the fact that there is also a similar discourse in Israel about Arabs and muslims. My point here is that you will find a broad spectrum of opinions in both countries ranging from outright hostility , calling for destruction and also more moderate voices that want justice. If you choose to focus only on the extremists from one side and the moderate voices on the other, you will paint a picture that is loaded with bias and has hints of racism in it. You talk about demonization of the Israelis, what about demonization of the Iranians? Do you think that Israeli society is just and fair towards the arabs who live within it? If so, read of this...
I know there are many Israelis who are against what their warmongering government wants and do not want war with Iran or even believe that Iran is an existential threat, so please don't tar everyone with the same brush of fear and madness that will only result in MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction).
The ultra-orthodox religious party Shas is a constituent part of the current Israeli regime:
Writeon made an interesting and thoughtful point at 12:16 on how Israel can define itself in future. Demographically, the state of Israel will become more Muslim and less Jewish-in terms of population-as time passes: is that a threat to Israel? As a Jewish state, possibly. As a liberal democracy, probably not. Israeli Arabs are not a persecuted minority. On the contrary, they have more access to the levers of power than religious minorities in any other country in the ME bar Lebanon, Syria, and pre-2003 Iraq. Shame the last two aren't/weren't so democratic, though. Anyway, my point is that it's naive to think that Israeli Arabs are anti-Israel and pro-Hamas or pro-Fatah: it would obviously be presumptious of me to assume that they value cultural, political and religious pluralism and equal gender rights over the purity of a Sharia state, but it would be perverse to argue the opposite, wouldn't it?
As far as Iranian nukes are concerned, Israel is only one of many countries in the region who don't want them. The Saudis and every other gulf state are pretty twitchy about Iranian Shia radicalism (if you can call a theocracy radical...maybe in an ironic 7th century-stylee retro way), and if Iran gets nukes it will inevitably destabilise the entire region: US nukes in Bahrain as a result? Quite possibly.
Lots of mis-translation going on with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speeches :
Mariella, the figure's you have quoted re: deaths are unreliable. There is no shortage of "human rights" organizations that obsessively count PalArab casualties from Israeli sources, but essentially no one else seems to count internal Palestinian Arab killings. If they are truly concerned about Palestinian Arab lives, they would show the same attention to detail and accuracy that they do for deaths at the hands of Israel (and even then, they never show context for Israeli actions.)
There are some organizations that partially count some of these deaths. For example, B'Tselem only counts deaths directly related to the intifada, including Hamas/Fatah clashes. Yet their numbers get quoted as authoritative.You also haven't quoted the amount of actual terrorists that have been killed and the number of Palestinian Arabs killed by each other.
Since were talking number since 2002 there have been 12,233 Rocket attacks against Israel. The truth is the Palestinian Arabs don't want peace only destruction of Israel, they glorify death and martyrdom and also know that for every Palestinian death a great media opportunity presents itself.
Out of 279 policemen killed, 209 have been identified as terrorists - 75%.
@ willoyen et al. I am heartened by the messages of support I have received.
There is a contradiction here. Israel continues to build settlements on the West Bank where some 500,000 settlers are based. May I also point out that Palestinians are not permitted to drive on the roads which connects these settlements. The idea is part of a land grab to create facts on the ground. In any final agreement, these settlements could then be incorporated into Israel.
Currently there exists approx. 120 settlements dotted all around the West Bank.
The important point to remember here is that these settlements are considered illegal under international law. That being the case, why would Israel continue with constant building settlement, if it was really seeking settlement of the Palestnian question. To this day, the Israeli government continues to approve more settlements being built.
Why would a country seeking peace with its neighbours continue to build settlements on land which would form part of the new Palestine state.
Indeed Israel is doing a very good job of ensuring that the two state solution is no longer viable. The notion of the one state solution is what Baroness Tonge was talking about and we all know what happened to her.
It seems that the West is caught in a double bind. On the one hand they are asking for a two state solution . On the other hand they refuse to condemn continual building settlements, knowing full well that they will render the two state solution impossible.
HAVE THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC THE MORAL AUTHORITY TO CONDEMN IRAN? BRITAIN REGARDS ISRAEL ITS ‘GREAT ALLY’, AND HAS SO FAR SUPPORTED ISRAEL IN ITS MILITARY ATTACKS AND ASSASSINATIONS OF THE PALESTINIANS. GIVEN THE CRIMINAL LAWS OF ENGLAND: DOES THIS MAKE THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND INEVITABLY THE BRITISH PUBLIC ACCOMPLICES IN THE GENOCIDE?
1- PLEASE WATCH THIS 5 MIN. VIDEO ABOUT THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE NAZIS AND ZIONISTS ISRAELIS AND CONCLUDE FOR YOURSELF IF THE ANALOGY IS CORRECT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPp0wPC1N-8
2- SEE SOME OF ISRAEL’S WAR CRIMINALS IN 2008, 2009, 2010:
3- HEAR ROBERT FISK ON ISRAELIS’ ROLE IN THE MASSACRE OF PALESTINIANS CIVILIANS IN SABRA & SHATILA -EYEWITNESS (ROBERT FISK & ODD KARSTEN TVEIT):
4- READ ABOUT THE UK CHANGING THE WAR CRIMES LAW TO HELP ZIONIST WAR CRIMINALS TRAVEL TO THE UK:
BRITAIN AS A SUPPORTER OF ZIONISM HAS NEVER BEEN NEUTRAL, AS WAS NEVER NEUTRAL DURING SADDAM'S 8 YEAR WAR ON IRAN. NEITHER ISRAEL NOR BRITAIN, AS AN ACCOMPLICE IN WAR CRIMES, HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO ACCOUNT; SO WHAT LEGAL OR MORAL AUTHORITY CAN BRITAIN HAVE? AND WHAT ROLE DOES THE BRITISH PUBLIC PLAY IN TIME OF WAR? IS IT THEY OR THE ZIONISTS IN ISRAEL AND AMERICA WHO DECIDE FOR THEM, SINCE THEY EVEN CHANGED THE LAWS IN BRITAIN? AND HOW MANY PEOPLE IN BRITAIN KNOW, OR HAVE OBJECTED TO THE CHANGE, INCLUDING THE NEW STATESMAN READERS?
Does Ahmadinejad really want to "wipe Israel off the map"? Not only him of course, Khamenei aswell...
"Khamenei affirmed that Iran had assisted militant groups like the Lebanese Hezbollah and the Palestinian Hamas – a well-known policy, but one that Iranian leaders rarely acknowledge explicitly.
"We have intervened in anti-Israel matters, and it brought victory in the 33-day war by Hezbollah against Israel in 2006, and in the 22-day war" between Hamas and Israel in the Gaza Strip, he said.
Israel's large-scale military incursion against Hamas in 2008-09 in Gaza ended in a ceasefire, with Israel claiming to have inflicted heavy damage on the militant organisation. The war in Lebanon ended with a UN-brokered truce that sent thousands of Lebanese troops and international peacekeepers into southern Lebanon to prevent another outbreak.
"From now on, in any place, if any nation or any group confronts the Zionist regime, we will endorse and we will help. We have no fear expressing this," said Khamenei.
He said Israel was a "cancerous tumour that should be cut and will be cut".
An Israeli foreign ministry spokesman said he wasn't surprised by Khamenei's remarks. "It's the same kind of hate speech that we've been seeing from Iran for many years now," Yigal Palmor said.
The is a great irony and conundrum here to conisder. Israel in creating more settlements is laying the foundations for the one state solution which it is vehemently opposed to.
Hi Mariella, I'll explain it. People in Israel get to choose their leaders. It's called democracy: and-by the way-it's kind of disingenous to say that Sharon was directly implicated in the massacres in 82. The ones who were most directly implicated were the Lebanese Christians who pulled the trigger. Of course it suited Sharon for the massacres to happen-I'd no time for the man, or for Netanyahu for that matter. But don't you think that you might as well say that British society is incredibly warped for returning Blair to office two years after the invasion of Iraq?
Willyowen, your last post is imbecilic beyond belief. Homophobia originated in the land of Israel? Give me a break. What do you have to say about gay men being murdered for their sexuality or women in Iran who get arrested or beaten by the agents of the state for showing their hair in public? Don't tell me-it's the fault of Israel/the UK/the USA.
As for Gideon Polya, you're a bore and a liar. I've pointed out before that the figures you quote to support your arguments are derived from the most partial sources or based on ludicrously flawed assumptions, but you keep droning on, don't you?
In response to Julia:
Are you in a position to offer an accurate translation of what Ahmadinajd said. I am assuming you are fluent in Farsi.
In relation to the figures I quoted, they have come from the UN.
I bumped into an Israeli aqaintance down on the beach today, (I'm on holiday), anyway, he cannot stand Netanyahu, like lots of Israelis, and he joked about Netanyahu's ability to communicate in American English far exceeding his ability in Hebrew.
I mean, he really, really, can't stand Netanyahu. According to Ben, when Netanyahu wants an ego masage he visits the US where he "plays" American Jews, (who despite their professed love of Israel prefer to remain safely in the United States), like a harp, and then he shamelessly digs up the corpses of innocent holocaust victims in the cynical and tasteless attempt to gain temporary advantage for his own narrow political agenda, which is to stay in power with his friends, and skim off of Israel financially.
But I, not to be outdone, added, show me a patriot and I'll show you a thief. Corruption is seemingly built into the very structure of Israeli politics. Which makes me very sceptical about the true character of Israeli nationalism and how much they really care about their people's welfare.
Julia and Lox, you are both peas from the same pod, the pod being from the plant Insanius Moronus.
You do not have any objectivity whatsoever, I doubt if you even know what it means. How can you seriously condemn Iran and the muslim world, while defending Israel? Do you not see that the whole region is in a mess? Israel is no democracy and has an attrocious human rights record, don't take my word for it, do some research into Israeli human rights organizations, they will tell you that themselves.
Not that I think you have any regard for Nelson Mandela, but I think even you would acknowledge that he knows a thing or two about racism and apartheid and has the respect of most of the world's population, so let me leave you with his own words on the so-called democracy of Israel.
"The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel's racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a "Jewish" state.
Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children."
A fascinating insight by writeon. What amazes me is how American Jews are prepared to pour seemingly infinite amounts of money into the Israeli project, corrupting members of congress in the process and YET: would never live in Israel themselves. I do not understand this mentality. Is Israel considered a back up state by Jews if things go wrong in the countries in which they are living.
I share writeon's pessimism; as very often it is ordinary Joe Bloggs who pays the price!!!!
"Lots of mis-translation going on with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speeches :"
so you don't know what a "regime" is then? or do you literally think that "Israel" and "Zionist regime" are freely interchangeable?
if you don't clear this up then you will just look dishonest. i'm sure you'll do the right thing and give a straight answer.
here's the speech of Ahmadinejad from you link that seems to vex you so;
"Zionists, who have no faith in religion or even God, now claim piety and intend to take away the Islamic identity of the Holy Quds. This ridiculous move is in fact the continuation of the colonialist polices of oppressors, which will not save the Zionist regime, but also take the regime closer to the endpoint of its existence."
i ask again Julia; do you literally think that "Israel" and "Zionist regime" are the exact same thing? it's a yes or a no pls Julia.
Fuck has a C Julia, you show your stupidity even when insulting people. I also note that you fail to deal with any of the points I made directly, instead choosing to 'insult' Also the terror attacks you mentioned can indeed be attributed to the right wing. It was the power play 'diplomacy' of the Americans over the past 50 years that built up to the tensions in the area. Most importantly has been the continued support for Israel and it's divisive strong arm tactics when dealing with other Middle Eastern countries. What Israel has to learn is that after nearly 80 years as it's own State, it is no longer under constant threat from it's neighbours and so cannot behave as such. Your defence for Israel is similarly outdated
Lox - "by the way-it's kind of disingenous to say that Sharon was directly implicated in the massacres in 82" - The Kahan Commission established by the Israeli Government to investigate the massacres found that Sharon bore personal responsibility "for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge" and "not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed". Sharon's negligence in protecting the civilian population of Beirut, which had come under Israeli control, amounted to a non-fulfillment of a duty. No Israeli did any of the killing but they did surround the camps and fired flares to illuminate the camp so the Phalangists could carry out their grisly task into the night. Both Sharon and the IDF were directly implicated in the massacres.
Jankaas - this is the real Gerry, thank you for your comments on the impostor at 10.10!
I am pretty anti-religion, I have to admit...so I do not let Christianity off the hook either for the Lord's Resistance Army..or indeed for black african slavery (christians,of all sects, practised, blessed and approved of it for over 1000 years) or apartheid (the Dutch Reform church backed apartheid, as did many other Christian sects)...and I could list a litany of crimes and misdemeanours committed by Christians in the name of their God, and, importantly, to further their religious goals..I think this last point - to me - is the key: is the crime/murder done to further their religious goal (however twisted)..? and I do think those crimes listed by Julia Harris are islamic-religious-derived ones with religious goals ..
But again, agree to differ - and thank you for your put-down of that fake poster, I genuinely respect you for that...
Why is it whenever there is escalated talk of war people start arguing about translated semantics. There is no doubt of Iran's position.
Mehdi Hasan is a contributing writer for the New Statesman and the co-author of Ed: The Milibands and the Making of a Labour Leader. He was the New Statesman's senior editor (politics) from 2009-12.