@Anthony Willmot - just a smutty schoolboy.

Drop the Health Bill

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/22670

At teh 2001 election tony Blair said "You don't get it , If we win this Election with Another landslide ,the Tories will never be able to stand on A Election manifesto with the Position of destroying the NHS again" The 2010 election prove dthis the Toires couldn't stnad on A polciy of top down changes to the NHS, tehy had to stand on the policy of not changing it and then secretly did it, the way Medhi's choice of Laoubr leader has made Labour un electable ,It's inevitable the tories can win the Next election and as they Know they can win, they can for the first time In 14 years be able to try to win An eleciton with NHS cuts.
Medhi do you really feel that the way to get Labour to win the next election is to rely on the idea that the Public won't let the Tories destroy the NHS agian ,like they did in the 80's LAobur had that view in 92 and look waht happened there, It was only A credible laobur party in 2001 that stopped the Tories trying to destroy the NHS, You've rid laobur of credibility and let the tories win in 2015.

John P Reid - You've rid labour of credibility and let the tories win in 2015.

I agree with this.

"Labour: NHS to be a "defining issue" at the next election."

There is public tut-tutting about coalition NHS reforms, but this is not what concerns voters today and there is not enough public anger out there to bring about an election defeat. Unpopular NHS reforms will not be interpreted as a Labour victory. If our remote political class were to step outside from that isolated bubble at Westminster to engage with the public now and again then they would know this - if the NHS is going to be Milibands defining issue then he has lost the next general election.

@Marathonman. Pater needed just such several times these last two years.
But, unlike moi, he paid into 'the system' all his working life.
For the record, the NHS has never / ever featured in our thinking / calculating when voting.

i think one thing worth noting is that the tories have actually promised to spend more on the NHS than new labour, this is because the tories wanted to protect NHS spending but cut more from other parts of the budget and labour wants the cuts to be more evenly spread which means the tories wanting to spend more on the NHS than labour - quite an absurd position really (this is what andy burnham has actually stated).

Ed just needs to remind people how this whole charade is the nail in the coffin of an advanced democracy. If professionals and the public speak overwhelmingly against a plan, you listen and act accordingly not push through what you and your well healed friends deem to be suitable. Last time I checked, that was pretty close to the opposite of democracy.

A defining issue will be whether Ed Mili is the labour leader or not. If he is, labour will not win. He has improved slightly recently but not much or enough.The tories might not win outright, which will be interesting as the lib dems are going to get slaughtered and will not be there in sufficient numbers to form a coalition with them, but they will still do better than labour with Ed at the helm.The NHS bill is a disaster and no one trusts the tories with the NHS and yet people still vote for them. Or rather i should say the English still vote for them.

"...use the health bill to try and retoxify the Tories."

Just on a point of language, 'retoxify', while I understand its meaning, seems indicative of Labour's dilemma. There is no need to retoxify the Tories, they are toxic enough. It is simply a case of exposing them, letting them do naturally what they do, and keeping the attention on their failings.

The Conservatives would have us believe that healthcare is something we can all buy with insurance (through companies they no doubt own), but we already have insurance, national insurance. I think when people start to see their loved-ones die waiting on lists they will realize that while late trains are certainly an inconvenience, late operations are far more costly. It took a huge effort for waiting lists to be brought down (under Labour) and it seems people have become complacent about this. The Tories seem to be trying to palm off the failures of the city, and the housing bubble, to the NHS.

Marco sounds almost sane until the end when he starts going on about lefties and scroungers and who wants Milliband? I expect that he would say the same thing about any Labour leader. Anthony Willmot sounds like he is the one on acid. The quality of the acid is probably not really good either.

I think there is a certain amount of rightwing American influence here, since we are hearing talk about how the country can't afford any sort of welfare state stuff now, so it will be necessary to get rid of the public NHS. We are also seeing this in Canada, and in many other countries. Anything which is public from the BBC to the arts to the NHS, anything public, somehow becomes a great weight on honest taxpayers. I expected this when the Tories took power behind the figleaf of alliance with the LibDems. I think if I were in Scotland I might be looking for the exit also.

It will probably be too late when we have another more honest government. Just like it is too late for our north see oil and gas, our utilities and pensions etc. All sacrificed on the alter of Tory treachery, corruption and greed. The NHS destruction was never put to the electorate, they have no mandate for any of this.