Mehdi Hasan

Mehdi Hasan’s polemical take on politics, economics and foreign affairs

Rick Santorum's baby - a follow-up

Damian Thompson and others on the right are trying to demonise me for reporting a story that Santoru

By Mehdi Hasan Published 09 January 2012 14:21

The reaction to my recent blogpost, "10 things you didn't know about Rick Santorum...", has prompted me to write this follow-up. In my original post, I covered some of Santorum's outrageous views (he wants to bomb Iran and dismisses global warming as "junk science"), as well as semi-amusing bits of trivia: for example, he is friends with U2's Bono and he once defended the World Wrestling Federation in court.

I also included, without any supporting comment, criticism or rebuke:

8) When his baby Gabriel died at childbirth, Santorum and his wife spent the night in a hospital bed with the body and then took it home where, joined by their other children, they prayed over it, cuddled with it and welcomed the baby into the family.

We live in an era of faux-outrage and Twitterstorms so, predictably, I've since been attacked by a coalition of indignant pundits and pontificators who couldn't be bothered to read what I actually wrote: from Telegraph columnists to left-wing bloggers to right-wing Republicans across the pond. The levels of outrage (outrage!) are on the rise. Anyone would think that (a) I had criticised Santorum for the way in which he handled his son's tragic death, or (b) that I was the first to introduce this story into the public domain (perhaps having rifled through his bins or having hacked into his personal email account). Neither inference is true.

For the record, Karen Santorum, Rick's wife, chronicled both the pregnancy and the wider US partial-birth abortion debate in her 1998 book, Letters to Gabriel: The True Story of Gabriel Michael Santorum. The book takes the form of letters Karen wrote to her unborn son, including the one where she writes:

When the partial-abortion vote comes to the floor of the U.S. Senate for the third time, your daddy needs to proclaim God's message for life with even more strength and devotion to the cause.

In May 2005, in a New York Times magazine profile of Santorum, entitled "The Believer", Michael Sokolove wrote:

What happened after the death is a kind of snapshot of a cultural divide. Some would find it discomforting, strange, even ghoulish -- others brave and deeply spiritual. Rick and Karen Santorum would not let the morgue take the corpse of their newborn; they slept that night in the hospital with their lifeless baby between them. The next day, they took him home. ''Your siblings could not have been more excited about you!" Karen writes in the book, which takes the form of letters to Gabriel, mostly while he is in utero.

In October 2005, in a Philadelphia City Paper profile of Santorum, headlined "The Path of the Righteous", Mike Newall wrote:

Gabriel Michael Santorum lived for only two hours. The Santorums spent the night in the hospital bed with their lifeless baby lying between them. The next morning they brought the palm-sized corpse to Karen's parent's house. They had their other children pose for pictures and cuddle with Gabriel. They sang lullabies and held a private mass.

On 2 January 2012, New York Times columnist, card-carrying conservative and Santorum sympathiser, David Brooks, wrote:

Santorum does not have a secular worldview. This is not just a matter of going to church and home-schooling his children. When his baby Gabriel died at childbirth, he and his wife, a neonatal nurse, spent the night in a hospital bed with the body and then took it home -- praying over it and welcoming it, with their other kids, into the family. This story tends to be deeply creepy to many secular people but inspiring to many of the more devout.

On 6 January 2012, ABC News published a long, online feature, on the health section of its website, headlined:

Experts: Rick Santorum Grief Is Typical, But Taking Body Home, Unusual

Yet, I'm now being pilloried and castigated for daring to mention this fact (and, that too, in passing!), which (1) has been in the public domain for more than a decade, (2) was introduced into the public domain by Santorum's wife in book form, (3) may have influenced Santorum's votes in the US Senate, and (4) has been discussed, time and again, not just in newspaper profiles of Santorum, but in recent articles by supportive, centre-right journalists (David Brooks) and neutral TV news organisations (ABC News). The whole thing is bizarre; a classic, manufactured, online controversy. As I said at the start, I went out of my way not to criticize Santorum for the way he behaved after this horrible personal tragedy in his life (despite, incidentally, others having done so); I just reported it. And I did so, you might note, in a blogpost called: "10 things you didn't know about Rick Santorum..." - not "10 bad/evil/crazy/right-wing things you didn't know about Rick Santorum"!

One last, semi-related point: oddball Telegraph blogger and columnist Damian Thompson used his piece in Saturday's paper to accuse me of "exploiting the death of [Santorum's] premature son, Gabriel, to score a political point" and of being "weird and sinister". The words pot, kettle and black come to mind. He deliberately mispresented my blogpost to score his own crude, political point against "Lefties". Oh, and it's a bit rich for Thompson, of all people, to accuse others of publishing "weird and sinister" blogposts.

How about this, from Thompson, entitled, "The Calais 'jungle' and the Islamic settlement of Britain":

How interesting that French police waited until the end of Ramadan before forcibly dismantling the Calais "jungle". That tells us something we really need to remember about a huge proportion of the illegal immigrants seeking to enter Britain: that they are pious Muslims.

Pious Muslims! Outrageous! How about this blogpost from Thompson, entitled:

Indulgence of Islam is harming society

(Btw, can you imagine a headline which read "Indulgence of Judaism is harming society" or "Indulgence of black people is harming society"?)

And in a blogpost on the supposed popularity of the BNP's odious views, Thompson wrote:

The Tories have not made immigration and Islam central to their policies. It's too early to do so, if they want to sanitise their image among middle-class voters. Also, they lack the insight or the courage to recognise that the two issues will soon be indivisible. The tragedy for this country is that it is now, not in ten years' time when our social fabric has been torn to pieces, that voters need a political party to do so.

On second thoughts, "weird and sinister" doesn't do justice to Thompson's persistent Islam-baiting.

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Tags: Rick Santorum Islam media Abortion

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293 comments

Sun, 2012-07-22 16:10 — olek (not verified)

Mehdi - you listed good people but what about the great people like Chris Hedges, and Norman Finkelstein? Thanks
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Tue, 2012-05-01 11:51 — Resurrection (not verified)

I agree Andy you are an idiot! Although certain points seem logical, all arguments are unsubstantiated. I was expecting to find the enlightened ones here, but I must have stumbled into dark ages. It would be a waste of time, really!

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Sat, 2012-08-18 08:16 — Mike99 (not verified)

The public are disengaged from mainstream politics. Page · Discussion · History. Most people don't care about politics .

Mon, 2012-01-09 23:05 — Bee (not verified)

''He defends Islam and promotes Islamic values''

How shocking a Muslim defending Islamic values. It must really annoy you to know that there are about 85 Sharia courts operating in the UK. Despite your tantrum, Muslims continue to practice their faith openly.

Mon, 2012-01-16 15:41 — Julia Harris (not verified)

Jackass, you come to such illogical conclusions and you dont explain your reasoning, you just say 'without a hint of realisation' or 'it cant just be religion' you haven't clarified anything at all or backed it up with facts or evidence, just your bad word against mine -lame.

Mon, 2012-01-09 23:16 — Buckskins (not verified)

Julia, brilliant posts as usual. The problem is you are much to sophisticated for the Muslims in here. How anyone could follow the teachings of a pedophile and rapist is beyond me, but they manage. Isn't that right Al Jackass.

Tue, 2012-01-17 16:02 — jankaas (not verified)

@Julia

all you have done is to continue down your blind alley, of course as ever draped in a transparent lie;

"Nothing to do with Islam?"

i have never ever said that Islam is divorced from the violence, you simply put words in my mouth. but it is an absolute lie. you do this only because you assume that correlation is a substitute for causation.

"Need to find a more complex answer? "

yes, because to only blame the religion is to make the category error i took the time and care to explain to you in detail. more fool me it seems, you just don't want to think.

i repeat also, your senses should be alerted that something is chronically wrong with any and all arguments when Sweet Buckskins agrees with it.

Tue, 2012-01-17 16:05 — jankaas (not verified)

"You couldn't pay for this sort of entertainment."

thanks for the frank admission you have to pay for women 'entertaining' you.

"Shalom"

lol. you're ever such a Schlemiel...

Mon, 2012-01-16 16:35 — jankaas (not verified)

"Jackass"

yes ScrewYoulia..?

"you dont explain your reasoning"

nonsense, i did exactly that. don't blame me for your deficient comprehensive abilities.

i made it absolutely crystal clear that exactly because there is so much Muslim on Muslim violence, the Koran can't be at fault, nor can the religion of Islam per se. why not? clearly because each Muslim, murdering their brethren Muslim, reads the exact same Koran and follows the same religion of Islam.

now if Muslims only ever killed non-Muslims you might just have a chance of your 'theory' standing up. but the data you keep posting highlights the flaws. hence your accusation i "haven't clarified anything at all or backed it up with facts or evidence" is utterly redundant. i just use your facts and evidence, unless there's something wrong with those?

so do tell me, what do you think your Muslim on Muslim violence data specifically proves about the Koran and Islam?

Tue, 2012-01-17 16:08 — Des Demona (not verified)

Blimey how far off the topic is this one going to go? Oh well.... might as well throw my tuppence in.
Religion, any religion, has as much to do with violence as soccer has to hooliganism. They provide a locus for those who choose to be ignorant or violent.

Mon, 2012-01-09 23:25 — Chris Gilliver (not verified)

I don't think Mehdi Hasan has done anything wrong really. I mean if the Santorums didn't want people to comment on this tragic event they should not have made it public in the first place, and kept it as a private matter. It's even possible that Rick Santorum's wife was trying to score political points by putting this event into the public domain. Who knows? On the other hand, I do feel a little uncomfortable about it being inserted into an article that sets out to demonise the presidential hopeful - whatever Mehdi's protestations against this charge.

Tue, 2012-01-17 16:08 — Julia Harris (not verified)

@ Sir Michael, out of you and Jackass, I think you might be the bigger numb skull.

Jackass is a kind of little puppy dog who keeps jumping up for attention, but then you put him back in place, he goes back in his kennel and licks his bone quite happily. Aw diddums, he got really upset I didn't respond to his long post that took him ages to construct. A mark for you - Jackass 1/10 Poor, you must try harder.

You SM are like an old dog who hasn't learnt that his tail is attached to his backside - you keep chasing it, day after day, year after year, but it still evades you...that pesky tail, one day you'll catch it and have it for dinner...keep on trying...

I thought we are trying to discuss Islam and what Muslims do with it...see the separation?

If I was a racist or bigot I wouldn't have Hindu, Sheikh, Chinese, Jewish, Black, Gay friends...So I know that I am not however you try to slander my good name.

What I really cant believe, is I present, fact after fact after fact after fact about Islam but you accuse me of being the racist?

Then the icing on the cake is that you don't blink one part of your very tired dandruff ridden lefty eye lid at the content of those articles but say they are hate speeches instead...

You are might or might not be aware but you are a highly dangerous idiot of truly immense proportions.

Tue, 2012-01-10 23:05 — Fraziel1

The lunatic fringe, Julia and Buckskins agree with each other,Hurrah! I normally have to look on David ik'e forum to get stuff as good as the comments they post on here.The abuse and nastyness is to be expected though as ts typical from such angry people.

Julia, no one disputes the Koran holds some nasty stuff but you genuinely sound obsessed about it and its not healthy. There are also some pretty horrendous chapters in the Bible which i notice you ignore, and just in case you are wondering I am no apologist for Islam, quite the opposite. i am worried about a half mad fundamentalist nutter that makes George Bush look liberal getting into the White House though. And you should be too.

Buckskins thinks that the Republican right are great, that is enough for any sane person to think he should be sectioned. People like Rick Santorum are dangerous maniacs bordering on madness. I genuinely believe that. Bigots too. My God, can you imagine what sort of laws he might pass and how it might be for non Christians or atheists over there ( jews excepted of course as he is bound to suck up to them)? ordinary folk too that are not rich.Awful i would imagine.

He will probably be itching to use Nukes so it can herald the rapture and he can be sucked up to heaven after murdering a few hundred thousand people.

You were quite right to mention it Mehdi.Creepy disturbing behaviour by dangerous individuals should be pointed out at every opportunity.

Sun, 2012-01-15 12:41 — jankaas (not verified)

@Awake!

"I thought Julia was responding to Mustafa pointing out that there was actually a higher prcentage of `muslims who supported unnaceptable behaviour in her view"

yet Julia's post do not permit such a generous interpretation. i did ask you before; "Julia has not once said anything good about Islam. if you don't accept this then pls link to the post where she did so."

so can you link to such a sentence? i can't find one, and i think it's impossible.

as you may have noticed by now, Julia hasn't bothered to defend herself. this is also part and parcel of her 'debating' style; get out the moment your bluff is called.

like most bigots, she too is a coward.

Tue, 2012-01-17 16:17 — Sir Michael (not verified)

"If I was a racist or bigot I wouldn't have Hindu, Sheikh, Chinese, Jewish, Black, Gay friends...So I know that I am not however you try to slander my good name. "

Hmmm... You have a veritable smorgasbord of friends don't you? Are you a travelling tinker who has been all around the world like that guy out of Kung Fu? Or do you just live in an area which has a multiculturalism fad?

Of course there is also the strong possibility you just made this up, which leads me to my next point....

"What I really cant believe, is I present, fact after fact after fact after fact about Islam but you accuse me of being the racist? "

This is the thing, you aren't presenting facts. You are presenting opinions and misinformation.

Tue, 2012-01-10 23:12 — Fraziel1

@ john woods, i think that what you described in pakistan is pretty much what you might end up with in the US should someone like Santorum get elected. Thats the way they are going, extremist bigotry and itching to kill thousands in other countries.All in the name of religion ( or oil)

Tue, 2012-01-17 16:25 — Olijaan1

I'm delighted to learn that Julia has "Sheikh" friends - they'll certainly be the best placed to educate her about Islam. Which of the Islamic schools of thought do they adhere to? I'm on tenterhooks.

Tue, 2012-01-10 23:12 — Bee (not verified)

@matthew

I really don't understand what you are talking about. Sharia courts (in this country) are not recognised as being equal to the British legal system. They require a voluntary participation. People aren't forced to use these courts. They provide an alternative avenue for Muslims to settle disputes in a culturally sensitive manner. These courts act as mediators, and often work tireless to reach a compromise.

I don't know whether or not Mr Hasan supports these courts, and I don't really care. I support these courts. I feel that they should be more open about the day-today runnings of these courts, to address some of the lunatic allegations made about them. If people actually were given an insight into the mundane issues these people deal, then they would't fantasize about mad mullahs ordering amputations.

Tue, 2012-01-10 23:16 — Fraziel1

@ john Woods, your comment about Anders Breivik beggars belief. What a foul diseased soul you have. You either have to insane or an off the scale extremist bigot to come out with something like that and i am on the right when it comes to immigration and islam!

Wed, 2012-01-18 20:10 — Julia Harris (not verified)

More hate speech, this time from the National Secular society, making up lies about Muslims, what horrible people...

Islamist stops university debate with threats of violence

A talk on sharia and human rights by NSS Council Member Anne Marie Waters' at Queen Mary University of London was cancelled at the last moment because of an Islamist who made serious threats against everyone there.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/01/islamist-stops-university-deba...

Mon, 2012-01-09 23:52 — MatthewBlott

@ Bee

It bothers me very much if there are 85 sharia courts, is that something you welcome?

Tue, 2012-01-10 23:27 — David (not verified)

@Julia: If you're stupid enough not to put your point across in grammatic language, the content is both meaningless and worthless. Maybe you should go back to school, since you seem to have missed the point.

Sat, 2012-01-14 11:32 — jankaas (not verified)

@Awake!

i still reckon you are talking past me. i'll try and explain myself;

"Re Julia, perhaps she is anti Islam"

no perhaps about it as far as i am concerned. i asked you why you thought Julia provided the data as she did. answer that question and you will realise Julia is anti-Islam.

taking your immediate next point;
"as you yourself highlight she underlines that SOME islamists are extre but SOME do good."

that's just plain wrong. Julia has not once said anything good about Islam. if you don't accept this then pls link to the post where she did so. for a fact it was me who had to provide evidence Islam can be useful and good for people. and it was rather easy, and more than a little ironic since i only used the very institutions that she got the data from...i hope this has cleared that confusion up?

and on the topic of democracy;
"Freedom of speech should be curtailed by common sense. There is no point in having freedom to say silly things or lies."

i could not disagree more with you. the reason being that i would hate to have the definitions of what is 'silly' or a 'lie' to come from persons like Julia. saying silly things just makes the author look silly (as is the case with Mehdi in this article), and lies are destroyed by facts.

Wed, 2012-01-18 20:15 — Julia Harris (not verified)

Will the lies and hate speech never end? Well meaning Muslims portraited as making death threat against women, this time the Independent spreading the hate,

The New Muslim suffragettes of the United Kingdom

An increasing number of Muslim women activists are receiving death threats, fatwas and even hate-mail from extremist male and female Muslims. Their crime: Rescuing fellow Muslim women from violent and life threatening situations.

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/01/18/the-new-muslim-suffragettes-of...

Mon, 2012-01-09 23:53 — Chris Gilliver (not verified)

Anyway, I'm more concerned about point 2.

Tue, 2012-01-10 23:32 — Mustafa (not verified)

@andyg

I admire the way you debate, other people could learn a lot from you however I wish they wouldn't.
Why don't you dissect the article like the way you have dissected my post. I've read the article numerous times but obviously it seems like you haven't. May I remind you that the title of the article was:
"10 things you didn't know about Rick Santorum...".
Whether some of the points were criticising him or not, that's not the point, it was a piece that described things you didn't know about him, fact! I actually thought point 8 was very interesting! However unsurprisingly instead of engaging in a debate on his views towards global warming and war with Iran, people have highlighted this one main fact and have begun endless debates based on a matter of interpretation. That’s what you will find is ‘missing the point’ andyg.
If Mehdi’s intention of writing point 8 was to belittle the man or for people to poke fun at him then I would be the first in line to condemn him however you haven’t given me any evidence that this was the case but instead you have offered your own interpretation, even though many others may agree with your point or not, it is still your opinion on the matter andyg and I’m afraid we’re going to have agree to disagree.
I look forward to your next post, though try not sounding like a broken record this time!

Mon, 2012-01-16 17:06 — Awake!

@ Jankaas
i don't get your last point.
- are u saying that the people commiting atrocities are good people but non believers? I have reread what u said several times, i just don't get it. U say:
'these figures prove that it can't just be Islam, it can't just be the Koran, it can't just be religion. so you must return to that thought i asked you to hold, at the top of this post.'
the thought being good people do bad things irrespective of being believers or not. Perhaps you're saying that these bombers are not believers? But I think most of the guys actually carrying out the atrocities are, they've been brainwashed into self detonating (who isn't brainwashed one way or another) .
By the way, i don't class anyone who commits atrocity as 'good'- i meant to say that 'good' people do make mistakes, it happens...
Then this from u:
i wrote-'"I think Julia's point is that the atrocities are commited IN THE NAME of a faith", then u say:
'and there lies her rookie error (until a few years ago i did the exact same thing). she blames Islam for the atrocities yet lists data of Muslim on Muslim atrocity without a hint of realisation that it sinks her argument'

I'm sorry i genuinely don't get what your saying Jankaas.

What i'm saying ,to be clear,is that Julia (and incidentally i agree here) is saying that when atrocities are called for in the name of an extreme interpretation of a faith, then this extreme interpretation can at least be said to be intolerant and bad, and measures should be taken to curatail it.
And 7/7? Look at her lists, it's daily. 7/7 was a one off for us.
What are you saying here Jankaas? that islamist fundamentalism should be tolerated because u see free speech as the corner stone of democracy above all else? I disagree. Free speech, as you yourslf said above, is important but you also said that hasan has made a mistake in not ecxercising any discretion- to err is human i think u said, so in your opinion he makes a mistake with this piece (again i agree). Hasan showed lack of discretion, as does anyone who invokes and encourages wars of terror on anyone, and especially in the name of a faith, and it is wrong to encourage or promote this hatred, even to present it as 'free speach', because it is not that. Without discretion our species may indeed come to an end- please remember that. This discretion is based on common sense, i tried to explain earlier, common sense is the mechanism from how we can move from a physical world to a world of ideals with some legitimacy- how we move from physical impacts onto and from an individual to a generalisation of what the common person wishes for to be done to him and what he entreats to do to others- a golden rule of behaviour if u like, and that is why common sense is so important jankaas, it is the base upon which the faculty of discretion operates.It makes no sense to blow brothers and sisters up, nor children, postmen u wiv me bruv??? Nor can any enterprise that expounds atrocity be encouraged or defended, supported or even allowed under a mental banner of free speech
These are all powers (discretion i mean) of course that western culture has done it's best to destroy in the last 25 years, and done so so successfully that if one mentions these one is thought of as a crank- ah well!
DRAT,ANOTHER PESKY PARADOX!!!!....
Incidentally Jankaas, in answer to your next question, since I place the collective above the individual then yes, free speech is not as important to me as it is to you. However, a further paradox, that's for me right here right now in the uK, for some factory worker in Taiwan, the answer may be very different.
What is the plural of paradox???

Mon, 2012-01-16 17:11 — Awake!

@ Jankaas
er, have u considered that terrorists don't consider their victims to be muslim/Islamist??

Tue, 2012-01-10 00:14 — Julia Harris (not verified)

@Mustafa, its not me who seems to keep Misunderstanding Islam...

"Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29

2012.01.09 (Dabori, Pakistan) - The bodies of ten local troops, abducted during a Taliban raid, are found brutally executed.
2012.01.07 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Sunni bombers send two Shiite pilgrims straight to paradise.
2012.01.07 (Maiduguri, Nigeria) - Two Christian university students are murdered by Religion of Peace gunmen.
2012.01.06 (Adamawa, Nigeria) - Islamists chanting 'Allah Akbar' barge into a church and massacre a dozen worshippers.
2012.01.06 (Yola, Nigeria) - Three people at a beauty salon are gunned down by Boko Haram.
2012.01.06 (Trinkot, Afghanistan) - Six children bleed to death following detonation of a Taliban bomb.

@Jackass, your an Idiot, there is no saving you, I can’t be arsed.

@ Bee – as MatthewBlott alludes, are you seriously in favour of Shaira Courts in the UK? It shows you really don’t know what your talking about. Muslim women come to the UK to be governed by a free democratic legal system. instead they find Sharia courts and the same injustice they faced in Islamic countries.
I have no problem with people worshiping a stone if that is what they wish to worship, just don’t stone me with it.
You need to understand what you are saying before opening your mouth.

@ Buckskins, you’re a Gent, cheers, the fight goes on... :)

Tue, 2012-01-17 16:51 — Olijaan1

Chris: I think that's perfectly accurate, to be honest. Mehdi simply set out the point as stated above.

I thought it was misplaced - if only because, as we can assume the majority of us on here are incorrigible lefties, we were probably already reading the list with a certain wry cynicism possibly veering towards ridicule; it certainly brought me up short.

However, while it may have been an error of judgment, I honestly don't believe it was written with any shred of malice, nor that Mehdi was "sneering" or judging the family, as was contended. It's probably just one of those things it's best to put down to experience.

Tue, 2012-01-10 00:21 — FA

Mehdi Hasan

You didn't do anything wrong in "reporting" the baby story since it was already public information. It was your tone - you were insinutating weirdness and/or mental illness in relation to the behaviour of a bereaved couple. You know perfectly well this was exactly whatyou were doing. You could have stuck to Santorum's political views. You chose to play the man and use his deceased baby to do so.

It was nasty and I'm assuming you don't have any kids of your own to stoop that low.

Based on this you aren't a very good muslim.

As ever the jousting betwen you and (I assume) equally cynical journalists from the other end of the political spectrum becomes a story unto itself. I'm sure this is very entertaining for you and presumably remunerative too but is this useful for readers?

Tue, 2012-01-17 17:00 — Julia Harris (not verified)

@ SM - Yes you got me, it is all lies and misinformation, however...

Princess Diana is still alive and well in the South of France, 9-11 was a Zionist conspiracy no Muslims involved, man has never been to the moon it was filmed in a Hollywood film set and yes Muhammad is the last prophet of God.

Have you seen the fairy's at the end of garden? they come out very early in the morning...

No doubt you'll believe every word of that...

Mon, 2012-01-16 17:24 — Julia Harris (not verified)

“what do you think your Muslim on Muslim violence data specifically proves about the Koran and Islam?”

That it Islam is a violent ideology and that Muslims through Islamic Jihad kill both Muslims and Non-Muslims. I didn’t invent Islamic Jihad but it is an important part of Islam that drives Muslims to violence.

“now if Muslims only ever killed non-Muslims you might just have a chance of your 'theory' standing” up.

Why??? What doesn’t that mean?? Why should that change anything?

So according to you if Muslims only Killed non-Muslims, that would prove to you that they still kill in its name but because its only non-Muslims then that would allow you to accept the theory that Islam is violent??? Err why???

But because in reality they kill eachother and others for all manner of reasons still relating to Islam Jihad, Apostasy, differences in doctrine, ritual, law, theology and religious organisation, then Islam then isnt to blame....err....why...????

For instance the ‘Fact’ that Muslims kill Muslims who are apostates mandated under Islam doesn’t have credence for you since Muslims are both reading the same Koran and following the same religion?

The fact Muslims and non Muslims are affected by Islamic teachings doesn't negate that its root cause is still Islam. Your doing it again, wrapping it up into some kind of neat black and white reasoning that only holds true in your tiny mind, but not in reality.

Are you really that stupid?

Wed, 2012-01-11 00:50 — Mrs.Josephine Hyde-Hartley (not verified)

Personally I'm not interested in how others grieve.The dearly departed and those who grieve are probably closer to God than we'll ever be..

But whose dead baby is it anyway? I suppose some might argue that a dead persons body should transcend automatically to the state and be whisked away for the appropriate scientific processing.( NB Bearing in mind the recent calls to fix things so one has to opt out of being harvested of vital organs after death). Other hygienically concerned scientists might start griping about the risks associated with the decomposition of the body after death etc

For obvious reasons - common sense tells us the way people grieve is best kept private, I should say.

But I can take the point about Damian Thompson and might add if he wasn't so soft he would come on here and face the music properly, instead of hiding in the telegraph.

Tue, 2012-01-17 17:15 — Awake!

been trying to post for day and a half, not being allowed :(

Wed, 2012-01-11 01:48 — Julia Harris (not verified)

@ David, I obviously put my points across well enough to annoy the likes of you, grammar or not. You've said nothing of any substance apart from being Anal. Why don't you get lost and let grown ups speak freely without a moaning Malcolm like you pulling his hair out over a your or a you're, how utterly ridiculous you are.

Tue, 2012-01-10 00:51 — Sir Michael (not verified)

Julia, can you please push off and post your Islamophobic tin-foil-hat worthy intellectually offensive rants somewhere else? You really lower the tone of this site whenever you hit the "post your comment" tab.

Jankaas, you might appreciate this under the circumstances.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-december-13-2011/kabulvision

Wed, 2012-01-11 02:36 — quattro man (not verified)

Wow....just been watching the Santorum interview on Sky, what an awesome and genuine person he is. No wonder Mehdi does not like him. Loony lefties hate anyone with talent.

Tue, 2012-01-17 17:19 — Sir Michael (not verified)

No Julia, I didn't believe any of that. The fact you were so willing to make up your mind that I did, without any evidence or even asking me first, speaks volumes about how you formulate your ideas and opinions.

Thu, 2012-01-19 21:51 — Buckskins (not verified)

Sweet Julia said it best. Jackass, you're an idiot.

Thu, 2012-01-19 21:54 — Buckskins (not verified)

Just because Angelia. I don't have to have sex with you if I don't want to.

Tue, 2012-01-17 17:26 — jankaas (not verified)

"Jackass"

(sigh, back to that...) yes ScrewYoulia..?

"is a kind of little puppy dog who..."

i see. rather than explain what you mean by 'jihad' you start to waffle on about your favorite pets.

"I thought we are trying to discuss Islam and what Muslims do with it...see the separation?"

ffs...and guess what happens to people like me, who point out this stark difference, and provide their argument for debate? you ignore their arguments when it get's too much for you, and you resort to insult. you haven't once tried to 'discuss the separation' beyond posting random data and screaming "SEE!! THEY ARE EVIL YOU MORON!!!!"

btw you are aware just how incredibly evil Hindus can be? given the opportunity/excuse they readily massacre Muslims, just for being Muslims. and then next on your list Sikhs, just google "Air India Flight 182", the 1st Jumbo jet brought down by terrorists, Sikh terrorists as it happens. oh and then Indira Ghandi was assaniated by her Sikh guards as a retaliation for the storming of their Sikh temple at Amritsar....
just mentioning this as you appear to exempt a whole load of lethal religiously inspired terrorists from your infantile musings on religion.

Mon, 2012-01-09 15:02 — James (not verified)

Yawn... why can't you all just grow up!?

Tue, 2012-01-17 17:29 — Julia Harris (not verified)

SM - Don't be dickhead, I was being facetious, my 7 year old could have figured that out.

Tue, 2012-01-17 17:34 — Sir Michael (not verified)

Ahhh, so you were displaying your superior debating techniques by throwing random insults without any actual rebuttals of the points made against your arguments?

Can you see why we aren't particularly swayed by your points? I love to learn Julia, show me some fact and I'll quite readily admit I was wrong.

Jankaas - Good post m'friend however she isn't posting random data - she is posting random opinion. I've looked and not been able to verify any of the actual "data" she presents.

Tue, 2012-01-17 17:48 — andyg (not verified)

@ Julia(n) Harris the sweet honest teacher.
I see that the debate is off then....you know that you've been rumbled dear....oh well. Your rage appears to be the much stronger emotion in relation to your reasoning. I also note with amusement that the merry men are down to two now.
Buckskins seems to be deserting you.

Tue, 2012-01-17 17:50 — Julia Harris (not verified)

Jackass, As your mentor and spiritual leader, I would urge you that if you feel strongly about Hindu's or Sikhs committing acts of terror or violence, why not write something credible with factual information and supporting articles to raise the issue for the benefit of us all? This way we can see the reasons and motives and what drives the people involved to do such things...

Err.....actually.... hold on a minute, stop, don't write anything... if you do this is what will happen... no one will listen to any of the content or even care about what happened, the loss of life.

Instead you'll be accused of being a racist Hindu-phobic hate monger by Sir Michael and told your a wicked and evil person, please stop spreading lies and misinformation, we need to find more "sophisticated meaningful solution to these complex human questions", you horrible disgusting racist.

Best keep quite.

Wed, 2012-01-11 07:49 — Silican (not verified)

"[A]wesome and genuine" politician? In the oxymoronic stakes that approaches the rank of 'military intelligence'. What is "awesome" is how somebody so completely bonkers can be a mainstream politician in any country, leave alone one that can afford to educate itself.