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Mehdi Hasan

Mehdi Hasan’s polemical take on politics, economics and foreign affairs

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So Labour failed on education, did it?

As usual, the conventional wisdom is wrong. So says the FT.

Our education system isn't perfect. Far from it. But, in recent years, it has become fashionable to deride the performance of the schools and teachers in this country; in opposition, the Tories, aided by their cheerleaders in the right-wing media, spouted context-free statistics about the numbers of "functionally illiterate" children and talked down the educational achievements of primary and secondary school pupils. Nowadays, the conventional wisdom is that Labour failed on education, despite Tony Blair's famous pledge ("Education, education, education").

The conventional wisdom, as is so often the case, is wrong. In today's Financial Times, Chris Cook reports:

Poorer children closed the educational achievement gap on children from wealthier backgrounds during Labour's last term of office, according to a comprehensive Financial Times analysis of exam results achieved by three million 16-year-olds over five years.

When looking at a basket of core GCSE qualifications -- sciences, modern languages, maths, English, history and geography -- the FT found a sustained improvement in the results achieved by children from the poorest neighbourhoods. Between 2006 and 2010, after stripping out the effects of grade inflation, the bottom of the distribution shifted upwards: the gap closed by one-sixth of a grade in every one of these GCSE subjects. There was no significant change in the number of these subjects sat by these pupils.

The pink paper quotes Simon Burgess, professor of economics at the University of Bristol and director of the Centre for Market
and Public Organisation, as saying:

We may have here the first evidence of a turning of the tide.

According to Burgess, the results suggest that

. . . declining social mobility is not an immutable force, but can be changed. Indeed, it seems that it was changed by the education policies of the previous government.

Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, has said his mission in life is to improve social mobility. Perhaps, then, he could learn some lessons from those "backroom boys", Miliband and Balls, who he is so keen to deride and denounce.

Tags: Schools  Free School  Nick Clegg  education  Labour

50 comments

Bob's picture

And now, I have two children aged 15 and 17 who will soon leave/have left school and they cannot tell the time, manage money or do basic numeracy. They can also read and write to the level of a 9-year-old.
@ Rory

I would be interested to know if you and your wife take any responsibility for this.

Derek Emery's picture

I don't see how you can make meaningful comparisons over time about exam results when there was year on year grade inflation driven by the need of schools to have good and improving results. The exam boards duly complied and even added new exams which were easy to pass for schools that needed them.

Daniele1's picture

I am with you on that one, Divine. Discipline is the key. Without tight discipline , which by the way the kids appreciate, you are wasting your time.
Children needs and respect boundaries. The rest of the world seem to acknowledge this simple truth.Here it seems , the children (that is the children of ordinary people, not rich kids) are left to themselves to decide when and if they want to learn. A teacher once told me "children have the right to fail". I though that was a shocking belief for a teacher.I was also told by my daughter's teacher when I asked her when she was going to be made to learn her multiplication tables " she'll learn them when she is ready". I was appalled.
Bob: good point about Rory. I made sure that my daughter knew her multiplication tables even though the teacher thought we should wait until she had an urgent desire to know them. How ridiculous! How can we compete in the world when we wait until our children decide to learn anything!?The Chinese and the Japanese are not scared to discipline their children into learning.We are and we will pay the price eventually.
Interestingly, there are no such niceties in Public schools where discipline is strong and where the kids are made to learn .That is what their parents are paying for.

Awake!'s picture

Daniele
last effort, u are more more difficult than i thought.
EDUCATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY- NEITHER DOES CLASS OR PRIDE...NOR GOING TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL
There are many of your type who believe that people can't see that kids have been failed by the state system, but they can see it, and are getting peeved with you and hassan etc for pretending otherwise... What is vexing is the way the finger is pointed here and there, when we all know who is responsible... and the sickening part is that in light of the plain to see legacy, it still gets denied, the child's future potential nothing more than your political football.
And specifically to you: u clearly have something against private schools, imagining what it is they say in their class rooms about 'caning' or whatever... but u are attacking parents, and that is a pretty dumb target- seriously dumb. Where did u work again?

PinkyPrawn's picture

@matthew fox
"I take it Major and Thatcher's state education policies where a success?"

Not if your spelling is any indication.

Daniel Charles's picture

I think MatthewBlott generally has the right idea. It's all very well saying 'results have improved' but there is ample evidence that exams have become easier. I'm also convinced that marking, particularly in arts subjects, is more lenient than ever. What's more, there are now thousands of silly courses which are considered 'equivalent to multiple GCSEs'.

After leaving university, I worked for an NVQ college. Our courses included Child Care, Health & Social Care, Business Administration etc. We quite literally gave qualifications to an underqualified clientele, some of whom unable to actually read. Since we would not get funding for failures, there was no such thing. I saw huge amounts of data manipulation, false marking and believe it or not, tippexing out and changing incorrect answers in tests! Yet, we were still happy to give out hundreds of NVQ level 2 qualifications, which count as the equivalent of 5 A - C grade GCSEs. This was certainly common amongst similar organisations.

Ridiculous! Having said all that, it's no good just saying 'Labour failed with education'. They no doubt did a lot of damage, but, as has already been pointed out, the Tories are responsible for a lot of the horrid bureaucracy that schools face. However, the problems are far more complicated than Labour and Conservative policy. While it's true that both parties have a lot to answer for, how are governments supposed to deal with the many kids who do not want to learn... whose parents are as irresponsble and uneducated as they will turn out to be?

Robert's picture

Deschooling Society by Ivan Illich is a great book.

Daniele1's picture

"educational apartheid" is the exact phrase which best describes the British education system.
"the elephant in the room" is another one which describes the one thing which prevents this system from EVER improving the chances of the least privileged kids in this society. And this is the existence of private schools. As long as the rich can send their kids to separate schools where they get educated and trained to lead the country after they have gone through their own universities,nothing will change. I just don't understand how any one can imagine the gap between rich and poor and between the social classes can ever be breached with such a system.
Labour did NOTHING to break that apartheid system. In fact they even started to privatise some of our state schools by encouraging Comprehensives to get out of Local authority control.They also encouraged commercial sponsorships of schools which was a damn disgrace.
Now the schools system is so fragmented with the public schools for the very rich, the so called "free schools" for the middle classes, the Catholic schools, the Christian evangelical schools, the Muslim schools...How on earth does Cameron expect to stick back together this "broken society" when our young are all educated in different schools with different ethos and different values, not to mention different quality.
Not surprising that social mobility is frozen in Britain.But then with a monarchy and a still very influential aristocracy and an immensely rich class of people what do you expect? The school system only reflects the society it serves. I don't believe there is real political will to change the statu quo. One thing is certain, Labour was no different.

Awake!'s picture

@ Mehdi
If u want to believe that education is wrking, go ahead, says more about you than any article you might write. Holding up bits of paper claiming the kids are better off so as to make a political point is pretty sick though.
Some here are making veiled attacks on private schools, as if they are the reason state schools are so poor- again more hatred and vitriol.
The left has never understood that education has NOTHING to do with money- absolutely NOTHING.
I went to a school school that taught classes in portacabins, leaky roofs, freezing class rooms, outdoor toilets (boys), the syllabus was compromised at A levels cos of lack of resources, books were in a terrible state sometimes ans we were encouraged to tape them together by teachers etc... but there was discipline so it worked.
NOTHING to do with money. Simply teachers who have a passion for their job, and can control a classroom. The crazy left and it's ideologicalblah blah blah... the right trounces the left on this because ut dosen't get involved, let teachers and heads do their jobs instead of blaming educational apartheid

Awake!'s picture

'You trust all parents, do you? What happens when the kid has an irresponsible parent who couldn't care less about the education of her /his child? '
thank goodness for people like u who know whats best for those of us in relation to our children- especially those of us who don't live in the real world i.e. travelled, well (enough) read, taxpayer, mortgaged and interested in society.

'I was being IRONIC when I talked about "crap kids" and "caning". I was using the words that are heard in private schools when they talk about state schools kids and when they talk about discipline'
Says it all...

Hugh Markey's picture

Ability to spell was something Evelyn Waugh never mastered. Much to the chagrin of his daughters. Mr Waugh would fire of a letter to their headmistress at the slightest provokation -real or imagined.
These letters of Waughs' were littered with spelling mistakes and the headmistress took great pleasure in underling every spelling misdemeanour in blue.
The school staff were first in line to examine this parent's letters - then the missives were passed to Waugh's daughters. They begged their father to improve his spelling or stop writing letters.
[ We have our doubts about some of the spelling in this response. Spellcheck is on the blink ]
As the Jusuits boasted some time back, given a child at the age of seven and he was theirs for life. A horrible exception - James Joyce. Most other Irish literary talents were of the Protestant faith.
The British elite recognised this fact in the days of Tom Brown and Billy Bunter.
It's called social engineering. Gentlemen's Clubs, golf clubs, and most sports clubs until very recently were exclusively male dominated.
And all that talk about 'competition'. George Osbourne attended prep and public school. Segregated on the basis of money. No 11 Plus entrance. No open competition. Then university - some competition. George got a good second. Those grammar school tykes took all the firsts.
Recent surveys indicate that the UK is suffering a deficit in intellectual ability. Effecting GDP.
And George is spending £50 mil on two Nobel Prizewinners. Russkies - apparently educated at state skools!

Rotters

Awake!'s picture

@ Daniele
I don't understand. The article is mehdi backslapping labour on it's education policies and the great job they did. I disagree that labour did a good job because they confused good teaching with spending money (the left always does this as it has a chip on its shoulder). I make the point that education has NOTHING to do with money, and then u talk about educational apartheid...
I don't see hyow kids in state schools are failed cos richer parents kids aren't in the classroom- Kids have been failed by meddling lefties in the last 15 years, it really is that simple. Ideological assumptions of equality that betrayed the gifted, confusion of material resource with intellectual resource, stupid amounts of paperwork that nobody took seriously whose only purpose was to 'prove' that everyone was getting brighter, the creeping advent of coursework (copying blindly) as part of the dumbing down, the terror in teaching /learning sciences, the misunderstanding of Arts, the forbidding of a teacher to show ANY LOVE whatsoever to pupils because of pathetic adult hangups etc...
These and other reasons (I have 4 friends who were teachers, an aunt who was head of maths and then head teacher, and a granny in law who were teachers ) why these kids have been failed, but I've never heard it's BECAUSE of the private system that state kids are deprived.
Then ther's talk the private schools should assist state schools in some way- Why SHOULD they? They may want to, but there is no REASON why they should. Private schools in fact should be allowed to take over stateschools and get paid for it, but privatising won't be allowed. Then, Daniele, u finish with discipline as the solution, which, erm, i began with... again, it has nothing to do with MONEY-
WAKE UP- EDUCATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY
CLASS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY
Please remove chip from shoulder and stand tall (and debt free)- why is the lefts solution to every problem 'we need more money?'

Awake!'s picture

Who really thinks that people would fork out the fess if they thought the local comp was well run? You'd lose 70% straight away.
But comps can't be well run- it's a 'sector' in which NO-ONE can be sacked. No other industry can this happen in, no other country in the world where there are so few sackings... we must have he best teachers in the world- HEY!! that's what brown , mehdi are saying...
Running a good school ain't THAT hard, it's only tricky when the political clowns get involved

MatthewBlott's picture

Mehdi Hasan, you've made some good points criticising the current economic orthodoxies and the need for a clearer alternative but this is one of those subjects where we part company.

The first point that needs making is the improvement in exam results is meaningless if the exams themselves are easier.

The wider point is that the comprehenisve system is pretty piss poor and has been failing for decades. I've just finished reading Katharine Birbalsingh's To Miss With Love and as someone who experienced a comprehensive education first hand I can tell you the stories in it are all too depressingly familiar. I would urge anyone that cares about the education of our children to read it. Education should receive adequate funding of course but that is not an end in itself. Discipline (or lack of it), attendance, expecation levels, bullying are not addressed properly. I do not advocate a return to the cane and 1950s austerity but a little bit of such things as they are experienced in private schools wouldn't be a bad thing. It's all very well giving kids things they want to read and making it easy but it does a massive disservice to them when they have to compete against their peers who have been educated at grammer or private schools.

Daniele1's picture

Awake:
Yes true, money isn't the only factor in education. What I am concerned about is the fact that the kids belonging to the strictly divided social classes are educated APART from each other.That is why this country is infested with the notion of class and privilege.
If all kids were educated together you would produce CITIZENS as opposed to members of opposing groups which have nothing in common and never actually become aware of each other's existence throughout their lives.
Also you would have a completely different ethos and discipline would be imposed as the middle and upper classes wouldn't put up with the chaos you find in some state schools.Also you wouldn't see some teachers talking about "those kids",
"they don't need to do history" just because they come from a poor background.The trouble here is that they have persuaded the poorer classes that education isn't for them and many of their kids are totally switched off because their parents don't give a damn.Many teachers give up, drowned by the tide of hostility and disinterest coming from the kids and their parents.Who can blame them? Have you tried to teach in a "tough" school, Aware? I guess you haven't.You must be a saint, a loser or a hero to teach in some British schools.
I know that fully comprehensive education works in other European countries where class divisions are far less pronounced. Why not here??

C Baker's picture

Teachers are so dim these days, mostly because they achieved their over inflated grades through Labour's graduation for thickos, all inclusive uni system. Even doctors are finding it difficult to understand medicine as their education has been dumbed down. Combined sciences with no depth of study. Politics students, that don't even understand the British constitution. Law graduates that can't read and write. The list is endless. But nevermind, the statistics are great!!!

This post your comment section is elitist and against my human rights as it requires me to do a mathematical sum before i can post. I best let Labour know.

PeeJay's picture

Two words: grade inflation.

crabstix's picture

Awake! ?!?

You seem to be asleep.

crabstix's picture

"Even doctors are finding it difficult to understand medicine as their education has been dumbed down."

This is a joke, right?

Anon's picture

MatthewBlott - a fine example of everyone's an expert wen it comes to education.

All I know is that I know an Ofsted inspector who reckons many schools he works with have improved hugely.

BTW: Please note the phrase 'stripping out the effects of grade inflation'.

Daniele1's picture

Awake:
Your responses to my comments do not make any sense. Same with your response to my comment on the article about Catgate.
Are you saying there are NO irresponsible parents?Me being ironic about private schools "says it all", meaning what?
"I live in a state bubble"!! what on earth are you on about?
Don't bother answering.You are a waste of time to talk to as your debating skills are too poor.

matthew fox's picture

I take it Major and Thatcher's state education policies where a success?

Major wanted a grammar school in every town.

Gideon Polya's picture

Well said, Daniele.

US/UK Professor David Blanchflower quotes UK MP David Lammy saying "Oxford and Cambridge take more students each year from just two schools - Eton and Westminster - than from among the 80,000 pupils who are eligible for free school meals" and by way of partial solution (tertiary education-wise) offers the example of Dartmouth (US): "More than a third of Dartmouth's students are minorities, including 7.6 per cent African Americans. Thirteen per cent of our students receive Pell Grants, which are given to students with family incomes under $20,000. Some 10 per cent are the first generation in their family to attend college. We operate needs-blind admissions, even for foreign students, which means that if you are poor, we pay " (see: https://sites.google.com/site/educationalapartheid/blanchflower-david ).

Top public school headmaster Dr Anthony Seldon has argued for rich independent schools setting up good quality schools for ordinary British children (the state having failed) , stating of independent schools that "they also pluck children out of their social milieu as well as taking them away from their state schools, depriving those schools of their best academics, musicians, sportsmen and women, and future stars… I believe that every single independent school should either be founding an academy or taking part in a trust or federation [to help a state school] . It is no longer tenable in 2008 to retain 20th century apartheid thinking" (see: https://sites.google.com/site/educationalapartheid/seldon-anthony ).

I have been associated with universities for 50 years and still have a major university science teaching role after 40 years of university science teaching. Put simply, we owe it to all children to provide them all with top quality education at all levels. High quality education can and must be free for all (e.g. see "Accredited remote learning": http://accreditedremotelearning.blogspot.com/2007/01/education-should-be... ).

Educational apartheid and the widening gap between the obscenely rich and the almost Dickensian poverty for a huge proportion of Brits (for the shocking reality seen by British children see: http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2011/09/29/3329005.htm ) simply does not have to happen. Those who allow it to happen and who so grossly abuse British children in this way add a new dimension to the meaning of the word "traitor".

MatthewBlott's picture

@ Anon

Ofsted reports aren't worth the paper they're written on. I had a look at my old school Passmores Comprehensive - currently being featured on Educating Essex - and checked their results. They were pretty poor - lower than national average yet the Ofsted report said the school was outstanding. Apparently it has improved (easy to believe as it really was what you would call a sink school when I was there) but a school that can't even get half its pupils to achieve 5 A-C grades at GCSE is not "outstanding". It's disgraceful that such wording is allowed to go on its report.

Mrs Nobody's picture

I think many of you are vastly underestimating children and young people. Born into a poor family you look around and make your choice: conform and maybe get a 'good' job in the council or turn your back on a system that excludes you at every turn. The truth is huge numbers are alienated from society not just education. And that has a lot to do with an increasingly unequal society.

Mrs Nobody's picture

Our leaders, Cameron, Cleg, Osbourne and Boris, to name a few don't make good role models. They are all educated - privately of course - and come across as shallow prats. Hardly an image that any self respecting 14 year old boy would want to aspire to. Is it any wonder boys are turned off education when the product of the country's finest education are so unheroic? By comparison the uneducated footballers, pop stars and Alan Sugars seem positively attractive.

Rory's picture

I came from an extremely working class background living on a council estate and I got to grammar school because I passed my 11+. My wife who is a university lecturer and has a Masters and a Doctorate failed hers. Social mobility isn't black and white.

And now, I have two children aged 15 and 17 who will soon leave/have left school and they cannot tell the time, manage money or do basic numeracy. They can also read and write to the level of a 9-year-old.

They are both Blair's/Brown's children ... Labour may well have raised the overall levels and helped more people get A and A*, but my kids' experiences with the education system are by no means rare. For them, nobody could do worse than the last government did.

Indu Pendent's picture

Its a fact that approaching half of UK kids leave school without having had a proper education in basic maths and english - they are not the ones who get gcse's. Labour trying to pretend it does not happend to save face is synical, is insulting to my school friends and shows the grotesque way the party's once great values have been corrupted.

I went to a crap comprehensive implemented by self serving left wing bureacrates. I've first hand experience of the egalitarian old deal ethos of leveling down anyone who might try to get ahead -- its all about the dont haves and cant be bothereds blocking the want-to-do-wells.

Many people have a vested interest in keeping the status quo but its not good enough for my kids.

From around 2007, several of the UK's top 10 comprehensives carried out an experiment outside of the national currulim. They kept it secret from the Labour militia in central government to stop the elite interfering. They found that they could skip year 9 and it made only a tiny difference to gcse results. Hovever, kids benefited because they gained an extra year of study and could do upto 4 extra gcses. What it proved, what many already know, is the state education system is purpose built to slow the progress of the top third of kids in case they get ahead.

Parents get frustrated by it and do whatever it takes to send their kids private to escape the state. And guess what, rather than encouraging families to break the chains, Labour comes after them with avengence.

So has Labour failed at education? - yes: the old party put its own minority interests above the national interest.

Indu Pendent's picture

"Major wanted a grammar school in every town"

Sounds fantastic - why should people from ordinary families be held back just because they are clever? Grammar schools were private schools for people who could not afford it.

The failure is not that grammar schools benefit the middle classes who teach their kids at home or that they give talented kids unfair head start in life, the failure is the state system is designed to level kids down right from their first day. As it currently stands, state schools are prevented from giving bright kids from poor backgrounds the support they need.

e.g. state teachers are not allowed to spend resources developing clever kids. I know there are many teachers who do inspite of the state, but they do it in their own time outside of the system or keep it hidden low key. I know state schools that do it by working around the system and use influencial political networks to keep the state at bay.

Gideon Polya's picture

A year ago The Telegraph reported Nick Clegg as saying that Britain suffers from an “Educational Apartheid” where poorer children are effectively frozen out of university places and the well-paid professional jobs that typically follow. It also offered the following information: "Some studies show British children are more likely than those in other developed countries to end up in the same socio-economic class as their parents. A London School of Economics report in 2007 concluded that the UK’s social mobility has not improved in 30 years" (see: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/7952448/Nick-Clegg-challenges-m... ).

Neo-con, politically correct racist (PC racist), pro-war, pro-inequity, grossly human rights-abusing Labour has not just failed Humanity by involvement in genocidal wars ( war-related deaths total 4.6 million in Iraq 1990-2011 and 5.0 million in Afghanistan, 2001-2011:; see "Muslim Holocaust, Muslim Genocide": https://sites.google.com/site/muslimholocaustmuslimgenocide/ ), it has also failed Britain through entrenched gross inequity and Educational Apartheid in particular (see "Educational Apartheid": https://sites.google.com/site/educationalapartheid/ ).

One can argue that since Labour is the traditional pro-equity reform party it makes sense for decent British voters to eschew the Neocon American and Zionist Imperialist (NAZI)- dominated Labour Party until it firmly resolves to return to decent pro-equity values from its disgusting Blairite position of being slightly to the right of the Tories (according to John Pilger in Australia recently).

Luddite's picture

"ANeocon American and Zionist Imperialist (NAZI)- dominated Labour Party" genocidal wars, "Muslim Holocaust, Muslim Genocide": (according to John Pilger in Australia recently). Gideon Polya what the f**k are you-on... LSD or were you just born a lunatic?

Indu Pendent's picture

@Mr Divine
"Having taught in tough inner city Comprehensives and a Behavioural Centre in the 80s "

No way. I had a teacher sort of around then called ... Mr Divine. Think he had a gammy leg. The school was a homogenous lump of concrete pebbled dashed like an outside toilet or a borstal. Rings a bell? Or perhaps thats its just a typical utopian UK comprehensive.

Indu Pendent's picture

Its very true about academic private schools - they follow proceedures to get rid of kids who dont keep up. People on this site are consistently wrong to think private is all about priviledge - its actually a totally different approach to education which the state could adopt but political ideology, i.e. Labour, stops it. This is the ideology which levels down kids and creates the appartied.

Introducing diversity in education is the best thing possible - some schools will fail as a result but more will excel.... rather than most schools performing mediocre like now and spoiling the life chances for the top third of people. In the end the left's leveling down mindset HAS damaged the economy.

mittfh's picture

I once taught ICT in a high school before getting out of the profession. Setting would be wonderful if it was properly implemented. Probably due to resource implications, sets often contain a wide variety of educational ability / attainment. In each set I taught, from top to bottom, I could divide the class into unequal thirds: a group who listened attentively and did the work, a group who needed extra support, and a group who needed you breathing down their necks to produce anything. It was a real challenge to keep the behaviour of the bottom of the class in line, provide additional 1:1 explanations for the middle bunch (who often didn't pay attention to the initial exposition / explanation) and provide extension activities to the top of the class. Then to make life really fun, there was the "Increased Flexibility Programme" - half a dozen pupils from the bottom two sets would be absent for half their lessons because they were on day release at a local college (motor vehicle maintenance / health and beauty etc.) They were supposed to catch up in their own time, but rarely did - hence I'd be teaching at least two different lessons simultaneously. To further add to the fun, being an ICT course, printing out the work wasn't an effective means of assessment, so several hours each week would be spent looking through the pupils' user areas to monitor the work they'd done; added onto which because the course involved using the full version of MS Office and Flash (products unlikely to be found on home computers), the computer rooms were opened up each lunchtime, after school and during holidays to allow pupils to work on their projects.

Add on the necessary lesson evaluations and planning, and it's not a job I'd return to in a hurry.

Daniele1's picture

Awake:
I agree with your criticisms of what goes on in state schools, the paperwork, the dumbing down etc.. The thing is all of that was started by conservative governments, not by Labour.I know, I was teaching at the time and Labour only carried on on the same path with the same crap.They didn't start anything new.
But your idea of private schools is hilarious. Private schools to rescue state schools? State schools to be privatised?? Which planet do you live on? Why would state schools improve if they were privatised exactly? Could they get rid of all the crap pupils who don't want to know? would they be able to have 20 kids only in a class? Would they be able to cane any kid who swear at the teachers (they will be kept busy)? Who is going to pay for them?the poor jobless parents?
By the way I have taught in some awful private schools with bad discipline and bad ethos but because the parents could pay for private tutors, extra material etc.. the kids managed to pass the exams easily in the end.Also a lot of cheating at exams was going on, but the teachers were turning a blind eye to maintain the good reputation of the school.You have a very rosy picture of these places it seems.
My favorite quote of yours is "Class has nothing to do with money?"
Are you serious or are you taking the piss?

dodie02's picture

There is a difference between research into education and the bile spewed out by some of the writers here. Please can contributors restrain their bitterness to look at the research first? Personal experience does not constitute the experience of the generality of children's schooling. I am appalled at the unthinking response of many of the contributors here. They are muddying the waters and playing into the hands of those who want to restrict less advantaged children's chances. If you had a bad deal at school there are still opportunities for you to turn that round at Colleges and online courses. I knwo because that is what I did. So please stop complaining and try and see the picture clearly. It seems that the last Labour government did begin to change the chances of poorer children. Don't knock it but welcome and criticise those who would reverse this!

Yakoub's picture

New Labour were experts at ignoring independent research. Just one example, our early years education is fit for purpose in the world of Daily Mail reading morons who want to turn reception classes into lecture theatres, and have no understanding of the value and efficacy of play based learning. My kids are grown up now - but they'd be in independent private schools before KS2 if I was starting now.

And that's before you get me going on an education system that is designed to completely fail a third of all children. Imagine spending 11 of your most formative years being told you're incompetent...

Awake!'s picture

Daniele
maybe we can agree that education should be placed under a permanent coalition, it's too important to get wrong or be politicized.
Now, u wrote this;
'Could they get rid of all the crap pupils who don't want to know? '
Ok, i can feel my blood rising right now , but will keep cool. What do u mean by this?

Mrs Nobody's picture

As Rory says above things are black and white and that's very true of education. I passed my 11+ but chose to go to a secondary modern school but that didn't stop me from achieving. I went to university at a time when only 7% of the population had a university education. In today's world of education costing a the equivalent of a mortgage I doubt very much I would have bothered. Why take on that level of debt? 16 years of education produces educated conformists who fail to challenge received wisdom and accept the philosophic values of the ruling elite. No thanks.

Mrs Nobody's picture

That should have read 'things aren't black and white.' But you get the gist.

Awake!'s picture

Caning kids!?!!? then u ask what planet i live on?

I note that others annecdotal eveidence is just that, wjilst your evidence of cheating in schools is widespread...
Your comment descended into a rambling rant- were your classes similarly structured? and with the same facts like 'caning' and 'cheating' in private schools?
Give parents a voucher, let them decide what is best for their kids, after all no one is going to have their best interest closer to heart.

davidtownhill's picture

Having lived abroad in a few countries (Spain, Morocco, Malaysia) and seen the education system in these countries as well as the French system, the UK is streets ahead of all of these. My kids are currently in an American school and it is way behind what we have in the UK. Our education system is something to be proud of, as are our teachers.

Daniele1's picture

Awake:Calm down dear, I was being IRONIC when I talked about "crap kids" and "caning". I was using the words that are heard in private schools when they talk about state schools kids and when they talk about discipline.
I don't see why I wouldn't mention MY experience of private schools as a teacher when every one else is an expert because they have been to school when they were kids.I am not generalising necessarily from my experience.It is YOU who are generalising by stating that "private is best".
What I would like to see is a good state comprehensive system with discipline, proper subjects being taught and equal opportunities for all pupils educated in a common ethos with common values.
The private and faith schools should be taxed out of existence as they are
divisive and corrupting.
You trust all parents, do you? What happens when the kid has an irresponsible parent who couldn't care less about the education of her /his child?
You don't live in the real world Aware, despite your name.

Indu Pendent's picture

@dodie02

So in a nut shell you are saying

- Shhh! dont tell anyone about the manifest failings of the UK's education system because it undermines Labour. We dont want to improve the system because that would mean first mean admitting their was a problem.

Sorry, the issue is to big and improtant for it to be suppressed any more by the Labour project. In reality, its a stong suit for Labour and being open about it would pick them up support e.g. Ed Miliband calling a truce on Labour's envy driven crusade against private schools.

Daniele1's picture

davidtownhill:
Thanks for a typical jingoistic belief that everything British is ...well...just superior!
I am so sick of hearing stuff like "our police is the best in the world", "our army is the best in the world", now sure enough "our education system is the best in the world". Don't you people (that is the nationalist Daily Mail readers out there) have the sense of the ridiculous? Not surprising nothing seems to improve in this country. We are the best already! nothing to improve!
By the way David, if you lived abroad, I assume that your kids were in some kind of English school.How could you evaluate the education system of these countries?
The facts don't confirm your deluded opinion unfortunately. When comparisons are made between countries, the British kids are always far behind other Europeans, especially in maths which is abysmally taught in this country.
I don't know about America. I suspect you are right there, their state schools are probably even worse than ours. There again, an apartheid system is in operation with very bad schools serving the poorest areas while the rich send their kids to private schools.

Daniele1's picture

Many commenters are talking about their personal experience with the system but that is no evidence at all. Of course you will have lots of personal exceptions like kids succeeding against the odds, crap private schools (I know some), brilliant comprehensive etc.. but we are talking about the most common experience that kids get in this country and you have to evaluate the system and what it means for the majority of kids, and not get bogged down with individual cases.
Unless it is a rigid apartheid system reinforced by laws (like the segregation laws in the States in the 60's)you will have exceptions to the rule.I thought that would go without saying.

Mr. Divine's picture

Having taught in tough inner city Comprehensives and a Behavioural Centre in the 80s I think the problem is an ongoing negative attitude towards learning.. it's cultural. It is particularly true of kids that are outside the 'top' groups. School is a bit like work... if you can get away with nothing then you do nowt. If you think you're getting nowhere and there is nobody to help you or push you, then you slack off. Its easier and more enjoyable to chat about the tele then to remember some French words. Teachers also start making allowances when faced with 20 dissenting voices and minds, and you give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Things don't get done properly.

The kids that do need help are actually the ones just below the top group and not the ones at the bottom. If Comprehensives concentrated on these kids instead of the 'special needs' of the bottom then the school will achieve better overall results. That's why private schools succeed, and they are able to do this because if the kid doesn't get his arse into gear he/she gets chucked.

Indu Pendent's picture

Derek is right.

Also, its a synical myth that state education has improved significantly.

Nearly half of people leave state school without o level maths and english. How in any shape sense or form can that be rated as a success? The Labour spin machine briefing the media has concentrated on the small proportion of people who get good grades.

Private schools massively outperform the state both for most people and for the top third. Labours answer: shut down the private sector and level down the state.

Mr. Divine's picture

Incidentally I've taught in about 30 different Japanese secondary schools.

Mr. Divine's picture

When a Japanese school has 'attitude' problems the department brings in the top discipline teachers from other schools. They work on group activities and really tight discipline ... no inches, therefore no miles. One school was into chorus singing .. they'd be singing in class and as a school for at least an hour a day! Apparently the school was really bad (there are some) but after the regime change it was really good.

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