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Melanie Phillips's latest outburst against Islam and Muslims is opportunistic and goes beyond the pale.
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Tags: Race Islam media
Mehdi's article offers no condolence to the victims involved what so ever. Says alot about him really does'nt it.
When did any Pakistani male ever have any respect for women, and non Muslim women in particular. Islam has women treated as little more than chattel. I say it again. Read their Koran.
And, sad as it is to feel I must clarify such things, I'm a white atheist.
I'm sure there are a few pervert scumbags who share that description... Please don't hate me!
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is an idiot, your arguement should end there.
Conjuring allusions to the predominance of white Caucasian pedophiles in our jails belies the reality of the situation. Of course, statistically, whites form a greater percentage of those convicted (I haven't seen any study that extrapolates ethnicity as a proportion against population size, but obviously the country is majority white) however, what is disturbing about this case, and others, is that there seems to be a problem with Pakistani men targeting white girls specifically for exploitation; there's other crimes and statistics that you cite are not ethnic specific, that is, there aren't any white gangs of pedophiles that targeting, say, black girls specifically.
Does the religion [Islam] factor in in anyway? I'm not too sure; but given attitudes of young Muslims [as evinced in various polls] I would say yes it does (especially if these men are religious, which does seem to be the case).
Just read that at least one of the rapists told one of the raped girls that she should wear a hijjab and convert to Islam. He even gave her a copy of the Koran to read. Still nothing do do with religion, then?
BTW - mt mentions the Madina Charter. I highly recommend that everyone reads it. Points 13 and 15 are especially relevant to this case and explain why nobody in the Muslim community will "shop" fellow Muslims.
@ Des Demona
Shame, because it can only lead you to believe existence is futile, leading to nothing.
As Tolkien describes;
' The chief purpose of life, for any one of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all the means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks'
I tend to agree...
Also you should not laugh at the parallels of the Holy books with modern science. Where do I start....
"so-called on-street grooming " Sounds like you're having a dig at the victims here Mehdi, not good. You have to convince us you're better than Phillips, not the same.
Fort Hood, Buckskins? How many did your assimilated Muslim kill?
We Brits have not allowed them to assimilate? They do not assimilate - anywhere. Russia, USA,Holland, India,,Canada, China, Philippines,Australia,Sweden, Norway, Italy, Greece, Nigeria etc etc.
They did not assimilate in Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Algeria etc - they took over and destroyed the cultures that existed before they arrived. Afghanistan was once Buddhist, for instance.
Islam is a supremacist ideology. As have already shown - the Koran forbids them from having Christian or Jewish friends - so they obviously will never integrate.
They create ever expanding colonies and constantly pressurise the kuffar to get what they want. The impatient ones cause explosions and the patient ones just bide their time and breed.(BTW - 50% of Muslim adult males and 70% of females don't work and exist on benefits here). But they all want the same thing - Muslim domination.
And yes, Enoch was right about most things.But people all over the world are waking up to the danger and seeing through the "religion of peace" rubbish. Interesting times lie ahead.
If referring to apostasy in the Quran, it says that this would be punishable on the day of judgement. Some countries, however, have spun their own laws on the matter but not as governed by the Quran and therefore Islam.
Contrary to popular belief the Quran does not restrict Muslim women marrying others of the book (Christians or Jews).
Hopefully I've answered your questions, now have hit the sack. Pleasant dreams may be tomorrow, we can talk about Katie Price instead.
Real Christians follow the old testaments and the earliest Bible(now gone), fake Christians follow the Romanised version of the bible.
Real Muslims follow the Quran (relayed by God), fake Muslims follow the hadiths which were later editions relayed by men.
@ Des Demona
by Dr. Maurice Bucaille
Science fact; becomes quickly obsolete when 'newer' discoveries are made. Also what are they actually discovering? Laws of Physics= God's Law. Not a set of random principles, to think that is truly absurd!
Anyhow, Des, I have a feeling about what your belief system is based upon and I bet it's not science...
So now we know where you're really coming from. Why didn't you say so before?
Keep raging and frothing.
Are you telling me that no other groups of people commit crimes likes the one mentioned...I remember white skinned, blue eyed men who exterminated 6 million innocent Jews just over six decades ago, then white men who massacred and raped over half a million people in Kosovo and Bosnia, it was white men who shot and bombed innocent journalists and civilians indiscriminately in Iraq, Pakisatan, Afghanistan, it was a white men who lied about WMD. It is predominantly white men who abuse white children. It’s only been a few decades since women and gays have had some sort of emancipation in our society, although sexism and homophobia still deeply embedded amongst "white" folks.
The list goes on... my point is every society has it criminals... So let not show the moral high ground here. We don’t see any other groups of people attaching ethnicity, race or religion to specific crimes...it only occurs when white supremacist target "others" (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, blacks, Chinese etc...)
There should be a study into why some white people enjoy assigning crimes to other communities, while they themselves are deeply entrenched in the very crimes they ascribe to others. Although I think already know what conclusions will be drawn.
@ Nigel Blake
What makes you think existance is futile if you don't beleive in some kind of dictatorial sky god deciding if you get a hereafter or not?
I have children.They are my legacy and my memory, and as far as I'm concerned, my purpose. I don't need anything else.
The parallels with Holy books and science? So you are not one of those still clinging to the fact that the earth is only 4000 years old?
Or that Jesus turned water into wine? Or that Noah saved 2 of every species from the flood in an arc that must have been the size of a small country?
You are one of those who alter their views to try to coincide with actual knowledge?
Why don't you just read the QUR'AN!! STOP making assumptions based on information you've found online. Read it and then i challenge anyone to say that Islam is not a peaceful religion!
Buckskins says: "Read their Koran"
Yes do read the Koran!
Great advice for everyone. Thanks for that.
Firstly, a couple of points about replies to my comments on censorship. I was not, clearly, arguing against individuals having the right to hold an opinion. I was just pointing out that this is not the right forum for it. This is the NS website, a progressive forum for the centre left and left. If I go on to the Daily Mail or EDL websites I expect to find Islamophobic and other idiotic rants but I dont expect to find them here. Thats all I was saying. There are plenty of 'neutral' venues on the web to have a debate for both sides of the argument, why do we need to here?? It works in reverse because I have tried posting a counter argument to certain threads on the Daily Mail website before and these have not been published, which is fine because from their point of view I do not have a valid opinion, but it has to work both ways and have right wing opinions ciphoned out from this website.
On a wider note I think that large numbers of white Britons reverting to Islam can only be a good thing. We would negate the negative cultural aspects that permeate a lot of Asian Britain and deliver a true Islam, based on the teachings of the Quran and the Sunnah, and which is close to core British values in any case as it preaches tolerance and peace and holds the place of women in society higher than any other religious texts. The way to prevent Islamist views taking a foothold is for more not less people to join Islam. From my own point of view I am a reluctant revert, won over purely by the overwhelming evidence that Islam is the truth. I read all the counter arguments by Dawkins, Hitchens et al but I am afraid the arguments in favour of Islam being the truth are far more compelling and I intellectually took the view that there was no alternative but to embrace Islam unless I was prepared for the consequences of not doing (which I am not). However, I retain my core British values and I remain liberal in my views. Not all reverts are fundamentalists. Yes, I do have a muslim wife now but she does not wear hijab (except when she teaches at a muslim school because she has to there) and we both try to be good muslims in our own way.
@Des and Melanie Phillips looks like the Jewish community and English Royalists have a problem:
Or are you going to be one of those who deny as well?
Kasser - Why'd it take you so long to answer? I felt like a broken record. What was stopping you from responding...? ;-)
"If referring to apostasy in the Quran, it says that this would be punishable on the day of judgement. Some countries, however, have spun their own laws on the matter but not as governed by the Quran and therefore Islam."
Bukhari 52:260 - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
No wonder you kept ignoring me. lol
"Contrary to popular belief the Quran does not restrict Muslim women marrying others of the book (Christians or Jews). "
Simply not true, and I know you know that (due to your silence). Muslim women are forbidden from marrying non-Muslim men because non-Muslim men do not believe in Muhammad. Therefore the children will not grow up as Muslim. This would give Muslim women freedom to marry who they wish, and Muslim men do not want that. Come on, Kasser... you know very well that in the Muslim world & in Muslim communities througout the world, intermarriage between a Muslim woman/non-Muslim man is almost non-existent. Muslim women know their role, and they know this is forbidden. You're the first Muslim I've ever come across to say it's not forbidden in Islam. Most Muslims either ignore me (surprise, surprise) or just admit this is the case.
Kasser... can you really not see why non-Muslims in the west are very suspicious & fearful of Islam? Are you seriously saying you cannot see it from their perspective?
Well said Mehdi - excellent piece.
Unfortunately some people's ignorance and clear hatred of Muslims/Islam/Pakistanis blinds them. Funny how most of the comments have ignored the statistics which would supposedly incriminate all white people based on their own logic. How hypocritical.
For all you self-righteous lot going on about how Muslims follow the example of their Prophet Mohammed, considering the typical child-bearing age in Europe a few centuries ago was 13, would you say all white people inclined to pedophilia were inspired by their forefathers?
Anyone can take verses out of context in the Quran. You can do the same with many verses in the Bible, Torah and just about any book.
[004:019] O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straighten them in order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency, and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while God has placed abundant good in it.
The argument here is very simple. Such abuse is wrong regardless of race, creed, culture. These things are irrelevant.
Look at your time, a mere short speck of existence even with the legacy of your children, doesn't equate to anything when you look at the majesty of the Universe.
Believe me, from your children to your potential grandchildren, you legacy will be lost like tears in the rain.
You know this; so your only really concerned about the here and now. Yourself, your children- you couldn't give a dam about anything else it's about YOU!
It's this kind of luciferian attitude which has plagued the world.
It is also not only girls that are victimized, but boys and young men also. This actually has a long tradition in the Muslim world and is quite different from that of Christendom. When The Barbary pirates or even ships of the official fleet of the Turkish sultans captured Christian ships, the attractive young men, especially blond ones were sent off to special brothels and harems where many were castrated and dresed up as girls. Although not unknown in Christian land this was much more common in the Islamic World and men's desire for such sex was considered quite normal, while condemned strongly in Christian countries.
Balwal I think the point is: Mehdi believe's his religion is not responsible for these particular crimes - and i.m.o. that's fair enough he shouldn't apologise, esp. on behalf of 'Islam'
- what I fail to understand is the complete denial of the possibility of any religious and cultural influences on these men - that their attitudes towards western women and Islamic women are somehow the same, that western girls wearing revealing clothes are not seen as being less moral, are not seen as promiscuous, degraded and cheap and therefore it isn't easier for these gang members to justify their rape to themselves - people who point out these posibilities are either fallacious or racist.
THIS is what Muslims think of non-Muslims. Non-Muslims are NOT viewed as equal in Islam...
Above @ Des Demona
er, I think you need to change your name. Your history does not sound very reliable or well-supported. And do you think Turkish sultans constitute the history of Islam? sure. Would you say the White Christian plantation masters in America, who raped their black slave-woman are representative of the history of Christianity? Or how about Henry VIII, he was kind of the English version of Turkish Sultans, rights? You think the practice you described is permitted in any monotheistic faith? You need to learn some more. Where are the people with sense?
***I hasten to add that it is an outspoken tiny minority of "whites" who have this supremacist menatilty***
as there are undeniably some fantastic people out there whose skin colour happen to be white.
Majority of people on this earth are good. it only a tiny fringe of people from every segment of society who spoil it for the rest of us.
Yes Kasser is quite right about the Quranic statement; it does'nt expressly state that women cannot marry non-Muslim. However tradition has merely dictated that.
How about if someone wants to become Jewish. Is that offically allowed without a Jewish mother? Why are you quoting Hadeith's when the Quran was mentioned? Do you want me to quote some tidbits from the Jewish Talmud?
I wonder was Jack straw responsible for Woolas's election leaflet?
he taloks the same shit as that leaflet did
Yes, the practises I describe are indeed well documented. Sexual slavery as well as other forms of slavery, was supported by the Koran, which, unlike the Bible, expressly permits the enslavement of Christaians by Muslims. The use of slave women, Christian women and boys was clearly used, and still is, by Islam as means of upholding the patriarchal system and keeping virtuous Muslim women 'safe'. The notion of the virtuous Muslim male is maintained also because it is either through the use of a slave or the condemnation of the 'receptive' partner as the immoral one, even when rape is involved. The practise I described continued quite legally in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries up until the 1960s, when African boys would be captured and taken there for this use. It still continues unofficially today.
@ Ian and Davied Smith
Yes the victims of these animals were predmoniantly white- BUT what the media and people who only see thing as "brown or white" keep on missing out is the fact they also targeted Bangladeshi girls who are MUSLIMs-and i am sure that if these guys had the chance to do the same with pakistanis they would. so stop your racists non-sense. anyone with brain larger then a pee will realise its nothing to do with race, creed or culture.
PS there has been many cases of white men abusing non-whites inlcuding pakistani women- the only difference is its never reported...i wonder why?
"Some White" People love jumping on the band-wagon of bashing "others" and in this decade its seems to be the turn of Muslims and now Pakistanis in paticular.
Good grief - you really don't have much of a grasp of the concept of free speech do you?
However I would like to know why you are a 'reluctant' revert if despite all evidendce to the contrary you have come to the intellectual conclusion that Islam is the truth and you had no alternative but to embrace it or face the consequences?
Sounds pretty psychotic to me. You basically joined a religion because you were scared you'd go to hell if you didn't? That doesn#t sound like a compelling reason.
The number of Islamophobic comments below the line is depressing if predictable.
The keenness of commenters to ignore the statistical evidence cited in my blog post (via Chris Dillow and others) is rather revealing of their mindsets.
As for the claim (from "Ang" and "Jane") that I blamed the girls or their parents for the horrific and unforgivable crimes perpetrated against them by these gans, nothing could be further from the truth (and nor did I make any comments about their "clothing" - watch the programme again on the Iplayer if you don't believe me and please don't put words in my mouth). I was simply pointing out that the debate over "culture" and so-called political correctness is obscuring an important issue: and that is the victims themselves, how they were targeted and "groomed", how such crimes were allowed to happen in "broad daylight" as it were. It's not me, but children's charities like Barnardo's which have pointed out that the young female victims of these gangs tend to be vulnerable and therefore more easily brainwashed. It's not me but the non-Asian, non-male Guardian commentator Libby Brooks who wrote last week:
"But even those who do want further investigation into the apparent preponderance of Asian perpetrators tell me that this is not about cultural expectations regarding the sexual susceptibility of white females but rather about opportunity and vulnerability, especially of young people within the care system.
...Meanwhile, the sunlight of investigative inquiry has yet to shine on our legal system which, all agencies agree, fails to cater to the needs of children who – groomed into acquiescence by practised abusers of all creeds and colours – don't present as the perfect victims our limited version of justice demands."
You say above: "It's not me, but children's charities like Barnardo's which have pointed out that the young female victims of these gangs tend to be vulnerable and therefore more easily brainwashed."
So, "easy meat", in other words.
I think you are playing the same game as Melanie Philips. Just as she is branding the problem as Muslim, you are keen to stress it is not, because according to you there's no credible way to cast this as a religious problem. The debate is then framed as Islam/not Islam.
Case closed, you then look no further. Whatever side your readers believe (and I think you know that most will agree with you on the terms you set), they have been told to focus on the issue as one about Islam, when it is not.
Too obsessed with Melanie Philips being Melanie Phillips, you omit to deal (as you have ever since this case came to trial) with Straw's point, which was this is about some Pakistani Muslim young men from a certain area.
Straw did not have a theologic rant about Islam (unlike commenters here), he was defining a specific, criminal, sociological issue.
Now, your colleague Samira Shackle produced an excellent article in August (http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2010/08/bradford-british-pakistan) demonstrating that there are depredations specific to the northern Muslim Pakistani community, that these have identifyable causes, and that the picture, and solutions, are complex. Straw is chalking up a type of sex crime as one of them.
Just becuase most sex offenders are white, does not mean that there is not a specific problem with that community. And the 50 out of 56 statistic should promote alarm and curiousity in a journalist, not offhand amateur statistician guff about how it cannot be extrapolated.
You are merely counter-punching with Philips on her own terms, rather than seeking to understand, document and critique the group in issue as your stablemate has done.
In so doing, you are merely being incurious and internicine, while ill-serving the community that you seek to defend.
Indeed, by endorsing the framing of this subject as religious, you sound more like a defender of the faith than a journalist interested with the noblest aims of the newspaper for which you write.
And this after a decent post on the assasination in Pakistan itself. What's going on?
PS. Am I alone in thinking, based on his previous haigiographies for the NS on the subject (and the fact that James M is co-author), that Mehdi's book on Ed Miliband sounds like a terrible read? Please NS, do not serialise it!
Thanks for proving my point so ably Sean...
'..When did any Pakistani male ever have any respect for women..'
having checked on wiki there are 170 million people in Pakistan, therefore probably 85 million males, do you 'Buckskins' know how they (and all of them, after all it was '..when did ANY..' implying every single one of them)think, feel and behave?
It would seem that you have God-like powers if that is the case.
..and you would be the same 'Buckskins' who is constantly using the NS blogosphere to sneer at, degrade and insult British troops, those same British troops who are fighting in Afghanistan... nothing like a reasoned line of argument, oh sorry yes mr 'Buckskins' your comments are nothing like a reasoned line of argument
@ Hans Castrop
that is the problem des des demona,left wing trolls like emma dont understand statistics,if 90% of the country is white, then the percentage of peadophiles will be white emma,but if 5% of the population is muslim and the percentage of paedophiles is higher than from the group they represent then that is a problem that the likes of emma and other left wing trolls try sweep under the carpet,but here is the crunch,,how many white paedophile sex rings are involved in openly street grooming young muslim girls,can any left wing troll answer that,,this crime being commited by these pakistani men is a racist crime and the evidence collated from the victims who have been called white trash and dogs by there abusers proves this beyond doubt..
And if these statistics were taken in areas with significant Pakistani community that wouldn’t matter. That would make me left wing troll. OH DEAR
Btw I am not the only one that pointed this OUT. The Researcher WHOSE study you people are quoting pointed those limitations.
So do continue to call me a left wing troll (which I am not btw and you are pretty low since I did not throw insults at you or anyone less). I stopped replying because you and Des who are hell bent on ignoring the actual researcher who conducted the study you keep quoting (which is why I did not respond to you Des. I wont respond to those who dont respond to my main point). I won’t reply back to such nonsense.
So, do continue to call me left wing troll.
50 out of 56 seems a pretty big percentage for one area...
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EngragedBrit, if you have sky, channel 842 m'boy.
There you will find the truth about Islam, watch it every day, and you will understand Islam better.
what i will say is that islam is an expansionist religion.
it has a glorious and ruthless history. it is a religion that people are converted to rather than converted from and always will be.
it will always be easier for a christian to convert to islam rather than vice-versa - in muslim countries it is banned/not possible and met with death penalty.
Yes the victims were predominantely white. Did they target Bangladeshi girls? Compared to how many white girls that is a bit of a red herring.
You state they would have targetted Pakastani girls if they could? You know this do you?
I doubt it. If they had targetted Pakistani girls they would have been lynched.
And that is the point!
@historybuff (ironic name)
Ironic name. Do you know why Slavery was originally abolished in the UK? They reason it was abolished was that it didn't make economic sense to continue with slavery - it was certainly not a moral decision.
It was argued that it didn't make economic sense since the individuals were argued to be less productive as slaves. You know what they say about glass houses..
Furthermore, Islam did come about to try and abolish/reform slavery but this was so enshrined in the arabian economic system at the time that it was met with resistance, so it was done regulated (i.e. teach the Muslims how to be civil with their slaves and to actively promote freeing them). All throughout the Quran, it promotes the freeing of slaves.
[Quran 90:12-13] And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is?(It is) the setting free of a slave
The New Testament does actually mention slavery in passages without criticism and it was widely practiced at the time..so I really don't see where you're coming from.
Bringing religion into the whole issue is pathetic.
How much more will Asians, Muslims, Pakistani's become negatively portrayed through this Western media? It's happened too much, and now it's down right boring and pathetic.
As for Jack Straw's 'Pakistani men find white girls 'easy meat' comment. It can't get any stereotypical. I'm sure many people of Pakistani origin will find that offensive. That's generalization for you.
We need no hateful or off-topic remarks in UK society.
As expected, NO ONE can give me any examples of how Islam can benefit Britain. The only responses are 'this thread has turned into an Islamophobic hate fest', or something along those lines. That is simply a way in which Muslims & leftists attempt to silence debate about Islam in Britain; any criticism of Islam is simply met with 'you're Islamophobic!'. What are Muslims & leftists scared of? Why are they so scared to debate? Is it because they KNOW what Islam's critics are saying is true? Evidently so.
My argument is that the more Islam grows in Britain, the less freedom there will be. I AM WAITING FOR A RESPONSE TO THAT. Anyone willing to give it a go? I'M WAITING.......
just answer this one question medhi hassan which most muslims avoid like the plague,,if this was white men from a english heritage background grooming and pimping out 100s of muslim children and selling them on to there cousins and relatives to be abused and raped would you not be the first one to get on your soapwagon complaining of islamphobia and atrocitys against the muslim community,, i just get the impression the suffering of these white children seems to been forgotten in what i regard as a racially motivated crime,that the bottem line mate..
I think everyone commenting on this article with such hatred towards Islam and Muslim people need to take a minute to actually do some research on what they are talking about.
Terrorism is not just caused by so called 'Muslims'. There are terrorists of many different religions, race and culture.
And before attacking Islam and making false comments I think you should actually read about it and gain some knowledge on the subject and why Muslim's believe what they do.
Mehdi's article is not trying to justify crimes committed by Pakistani 'Muslim' men.
Many of you are arguing that the reason 'Muslim' men commit such crimes is because Islam does not allow them to have sexual relationships. And in fact you are right to say so, Islam prohibits sexual relationships before marriage. And that is the point I would like to make.
These so called 'Muslim' men who are going and committing such crimes cannot be called Muslim. In Islam crimes such as rape are not tolerated and have punishments. And they are held to account for the crimes they commit.
Just because people are not Muslim and do not agree with the teachings of Islam does not mean you have to focus on all the negative media about it and make false accusations.
A person's religion is their belief and their way of life. Many centuries ago Britain was a strong Christian country. But evidently society changes.
In Islam a female should only be bearing a child after marriage. But look at society in this country now? Look at teenagers at the age of 12 having sex and child bearing. What has the world become?
The point of this article was to point out that a person’s race, or religion, or culture should not be associated with the crimes they commit. It should NOT be used as a reason for it.
Rape, terrorism, these are all things Islam clearly does not allow whilst strongly emphasising their injustice and severity. But either the media makes a fuss out of nothing and turns a small insignificant issue into a huge misinterpreted false accusation. Or pathetic people, with no knowledge of Islam itself use it to their advantage to commit crimes for no reason and claim that they are so called ‘Muslim’s’.
A name does not make someone Muslim and this is all some of the media have, a name; they don't check if this person practises any faith at all. People who argue without truly understanding what they are talking about themselves irritate me.
I am not trying to say I have great knowledge or something but it seems all of this has turned into a debate over ‘Muslim’s’ not being held accountable for their crimes and Muslim’s actually being responsible for half of it.
Mehdi Hasan is a contributing writer for the New Statesman and the co-author of Ed: The Milibands and the Making of a Labour Leader. He was the New Statesman's senior editor (politics) from 2009-12.