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I don't know whether to ignore or engage with this self-proclaimed champion of Islamophobia.
Tags: Islam Rod Liddle
Nice, Mehdi, anyone who doesn't agree with you is in the EDL? Way to go on tolerating debate. And you are the one constantly going on about intolerance and Islamophobia?
I may be a 'usual suspect' as you term it in commenting on your articles - but as I've said before - if you were a rabid catholic or jew and used your platform as a political editor to constantly espouse your religious views - I would be a 'usual suspect' there also.
And - you keep writing those articles - hence my usual suspect status - but it is ingenous wrong and slightly worrying that you feel anyone who doesn't agree with you is an intolerant racist. Perhaps that is your definition of Islamophobia?
Tommy Robinson of the EDL wiped the floor with Paxman last night. Had to feel sorry for Jeremy, though - because it's hard to pick holes in someone's argument when deep down you know that they are telling the truth.
We must have watched two different interviews on Newsnight then. Tommy Robinson floundered, stumbled over his argument, tripped his own argument up and was shown up for the uneducated, ill informed person he is. Paxman was restrained, he didn't need to go for the jugular to make mincemeat of Tommy.
intolereant of right wing hate mongering bull --dan join the queue
the progressive left needs a liddle intolerance
Find me a single verse of the Quran which justifies or allows "forced marriages" or "female circumcision", or which portrays non-Muslims as "not quite human" =
Well I think crabstix found more than enough. This Mehdi Hasan must have know it was in there so why write the above. Odd.
Oh and Mehdi - could you point out where my post was 'hate-filled'?
O right I get it - "Find me a single verse - theres absoulty loads of them so it shouldn't be too hard."
Maybe he's just trying to get everyone to have a butchers at the Quran.
I'm middle class.
You know, the people who pay the tax, do the most complicated and important jobs, work the longest hours, take on the most debt, have the highest rates of stress, provide the vanguard of equality, tolerance and fair treatment, produce and protect culture, and basically drive the whole economy.
Oh, and we don't go on EDL marches.
Challenge him (an atheist speaks !).
Then challenge him, or more precisely the Spectator, about their cowardice on the blogosphere - one up to the NS on that score !
This exchange of views seems to be a competition between people who are determined to compete for the title of the most insulting, most bigoted and most narrow-minded.
Of course the Koran contains some violent passages; so does the Bible. Most believers, however, manage to select the nice passages and ignore the rest.
So though I find I agree with many of the criticisms of the Repulsive Right, my sympathies are with the Muslims who have to endure this abuse.
On the other hand, Muslims are Islam's worst enemies. Every time a suicide bomber blows up a crowd of people, every time a group of Islamist fanatics attack and kill some victims or drive them out of their homeland, Islam is demeaned. The only answer for this is for rank and file Muslims to condemn the horrors that are done in their name. That is the best answer to the bigots, both pro and anti-Islam.
Mehdi, that for merely referencing numerous passages in the Koran to answer a part of 'your own' questioning argument is considered by you good enough to brand me hate filled and an EDL member or supporter is both sad and amusing.
Lets face it, what you object to is knowledge. I know what the Koran says and it is not nice. Any number of apologists have tried to defend ALL of the verses quoted at some time or other but in the end the story is the same. These are the words of the Prophet of Allah, and are true and immutable until the end of time. The weight of the hatred in those verses is unassailable by any amount of obfuscation.
The Koran hates me, and indeed most of the worlds population, and I understand that, but so do you. I will take that, but don't expect me to sit back and respect it. Fuck off. I am a non-muslim, which is more than enough, but I am also an atheist and long time trade unionist that has fought over the years against racisim, sexism, homophobia, and both the extreme right and extreme left hate peddlars. For all of those sins I am serially condemmed by The Koran, by the BNP, the EDL and now by you, it seems. Nice of you to join in.
I have to say though that the Koran is nothing more to me than say Mein Kampf, Maos Little Red Book or indeed any publication by the BNP. They are all of them the products of sick and deluded minds and have no place in the world that I want to live in or for my grandchildren to grow up to.
Criticism of such a vile texts does not make a racist, which you imply, any more than questioning Mein Kampf makes me anti-German, or standing against the BNP or the EDL makes me a hater of my country.
Islamaphobia is a busted meme.
HaHaHaHaHa - I've never seen a so-called journalist so completely owned and exposed: Mehdi Hasan give it up, mate, you're a total loser.
I'm not Liddle's biggest fan but he's bang on the money when it comes Islam, and you've only got to check out bertie bert's facts to see why (see his link above).
How anyone such as Mehdi Hasan could deny that women are not second class in Islam is beyond belief. Look out your window mate-boy, they're walking around covered from head to toe! Why's that, eh?
The thing is, though, it's utterly pointless showing the texts from the Koran & Hadith, etc which prove everything Liddle says is so true.
It's pointless because Mehdi Hasan and his fawning followers have an agenda they'll never concede. They'll just bang on that Islam is innocuous despite the facts.
Still, it's funny watching them do it. I'm laughing at the way they always change the subject and start talking about Christianity and the Bible.
Yeah it's funny watching them wriggle and squirm. Meanwhile, however, wife-beating, homophobia, forced marriages, genital mutilation, etc., etc., carry on regardless. Nice one, New Statesman!
I agreed, Thank you. http://bit.ly/ePS6Rq
bollocks to you stupid fucking people. put it this way if you hate (or despise if you are clever) a billion plus people because of what church they go to. what happy sort of world are you looking for. If it rains, put a fucking coat on.
@ Olddad and Mike G
Are you saying your particular religion is the baby and the rest are the bath water?
That's pretty much where all the trouble starts.
Mehdi - "Non-Moslems live their life like animals" - Hasan...
HaHaHaHaHaHaHa - you' couldn't make it up. What a hypocrite!
'Of course the Koran contains some violent passages; so does the Bible. Most believers, however, manage to select the nice passages and ignore the rest.'
No, Bible readers exercise intelligence. Bible readers read in context. They don't lap up the profusion of bigoted nonsense they read on the 'net.
The use of violence by ancient Israel was in response to violence, as a policing action, to prevent violence and other dangerous sociopathies, either externally or internally. There were few if any prisons in those days, and if someone got stroppy, they knew that, and they knew the possible consequence. This principle applied only when Israel existed as a national entity with a mission to act as exemplar of the morality of the deity of Israel. It became completely obsolete when Jesus died, and that mission came to an end. There is no instruction to use violence or any sort of coercion in the New Testament.
But in the Qur'an, there is.
Lefties make me laugh! They dumb down our education system, preach that spelling and grammar are irrelevant and then, when a product of their meddling tries to express himself, they call him an uneducated, ill-informed prat!
Tommy Robinson is a working class man ( in the distant past the left were supposed to stand up for them, remember). He spoke the truth with passion and you mock him. Shame on all you sneering snobs.
Thanks for your comment rod. Eloquent, maybe, but full fo typos. That's the trouble when you get a bit heated up, reading desparate justifications for sexism, anti semitic, homophobic, medieval barbarism in a magazine that is meant to be left wing. The moral compass has gone haywire.
Medhi, I regret to say this, but i really do not think that islam - the religion the "all emcompassing way of life" is compatible with secular democracies. I do not think you can define yourself as a progressive if you follow a religion that decress that all women are of a lower status than men, for eternity, by order of god. The Koran says this quite explicitly. The actions of Muslims around the world confirm this, every day, with horror stories of women being mutilated and murdered for transgressing a religious code that is barbaric. Until muslims recognise this and change, there can be no meeting of minds, and no compromises.
Mehdi - love your response. Its admirable that you have the decency to explain what you have said. Unfortunately, as you mention, there are people on here who want to promote negativity and they will continue to do so. The only piece of advice I would give to those Islamaphobes is that if you have hate in your heart, the only person you are harming is yourself.
Olijaan - I don't think that anyone can doubt the ugly nature of Islam in general. How Muslims dare to accuse anyone of bigotry is beyond me. Get your own house in order! I don't think EDL policies include killing people who leave the EDL, for instance.
I'm not a snob, I'm working class too but Tommy doesn't speak for me or many other working class people. The uneducated and ill informed comment refers directly to his views and knowledge on Islam and is not a reference to the education system.
Why bother responding to a moron like Rod Liddle
I could easily find quotes from the Torah and other jewish scriptures where it claims that women are second lass citizens and non jews are not even human
would I be labelled as anti semtic???
Islam is technically a semitic religion, and Arabs are also semites
yet there's no mention of anti semitism there...
Dear Imran and Mehdi Hasan,
have you read Christopher Caldwell's book about The Revolution in Europe ? It attacks European politicians' stupid immigration policy.
I encourage you to read reviews of this book on the Guardian webite. By Martin Wollacott and David Goodhart.
The cat is out of the bag - European politcians have imposed on the continent a level of Muslim immigration that none of us wanted.
That's democracy, je suppose.
Not at all. I'm saying that if supposed atheists could keep their irrelevant bigotry and falsehoods to themselves it would be a miracle.
Thanks for your reply, Mehdiy.
The name is Lev, not Levy. Never mind.
Perhaps Mark Steyn is more decent than you, Mehdiy. He doesn't refer to Muslims as "cattle", does he ? He doesn't say that Muslims live like animals, does he ?
Mark Steyn is a fan of musical theatre, so he can't be all that homophobic.
Remind me - how are gays treated in the Muslim world ?
Religion of peace ?????
My a**e !
let me turn that round slightly, bearing in mind the original source of the thread.
If supposed religious zealots could keep their irrelevant bigotry and falsehoods to themselves it would be a miracle.
How does that sound?
Imran, I think you might find that the Koran has hate at its heart. Pointing that out is not 'phobic.
'I could easily find quotes from the Torah and other jewish scriptures where it claims that women are second lass citizens and non jews are not even human'
Can we see a few of these?
Medhi, like Baroness Warsi is in very deep denial and has, very typically, the entire issue completely back-to-front.
A phobia is an irrational fear. It is entirely rational that any person be "afraid" of a Dark Age cult founded by a barbaric, illiterate nonse that is followed by infantile, credulous cretins who actually believe that:
1. Women have half the rights of men and are to be treated like second class chattel who are to be forced to cover themselves from head to toe in public, be circumcised by having their clitoris cut off, stoned to death for adultery, forced into marriage, honour killed or disconnected from their family or friends if they do not comply.
2. Believe that homosexuals should be stoned to death.
3. Regularly call call for Jews and people of other religions or none to be killed.
4. That Apostacy (the “crime” of changing your mind and no longer believing in the infantile myths and fairy tales) should be punished by death.
5. Refuse to assimilate into a host culture and actually preach hatred and destruction of host Country in favour of an Islamic Caliphate that can enforce Sharia Law trumping all other man-made laws (as if somehow Sharia Law wasn't itself man-made).
6. See nothing hypocritical about wallowing in collective hurt for any sleights or injury real or imagined on co-religionists even of other nationalities, but refuse collective blame or responsibility for the horrors committed by co-religionists.
7. That is it perfectly OK to kill people for blaspheming, drawing pictures of THEIR (no one elses) precious prophet or burn THEIR (no one elses) supposedly "Holy" book as well as consistently demonstrating that their faith is unable to deal or cope with any form of criticism or ridicule.
8. Arbitrarily label anyone who points any of this out as "Islamophobic" in a futile attempt to silence those who dare to criticise or question such a backward, bigoted ideology.
This is why I believe that it is entire rational to be "afraid" of a fascistic ideology that wishes to impose a world-wide theocracy. I'm very sure that the overwhelming majority of the British public would completely agree.
This is why all rational people should rigorously oppose Islam in all its manifestations as it is as unreformed as medieval Christianity and entirely counter to living a genuine advanced, civilised society and a secular democracy that recognises individual freedom and personal responsibility.
However, I do agree with Lady Warsi, but for entirely different reasons, on one thing. The moderate/extremist Muslim split is inaccurate and unhelpful.
Islam itself, a total submission of oneself and ones will to God, is quite simply an extreme belief system.
As Ayaan Hirsi Ali says:
"There is no moderate Islam. There are Muslims who are passive, who don’t all follow the rules of Islam, but there’s really only one Islam, defined as submission to the will of God. There’s nothing moderate about it."
It sounds just as irrelevant, bigoted and false as the original comment.
Lev. Do you think 'Levy' was a Freudian slip?
leffe and crabsticks a lovely lunch
In the context of this thread I don't see how the comment you refer to, which I assume is MikeG's ( though for some reason, which I won't assume is derogatory, you refer to him as Baldrick)is bigoted, irrelevant or false?
It is just as valid an opinion as yours (if not more so as it is based on rationality rather than blind faith)
'it is as unreformed as medieval Christianity'
There was no medieval Christianity. The theology and praxis of the Vatican was the perfect inverse of the New Testament, which is why it was usually written in a dead language. Islam mimicked that inversion- it's why a pope kissed a Qur'an.
Mounting bigotry, falsehood and irrelevance!
Yes, but if you dial it back a notch or two and actually post logic rather than belief then I'm sure there is a good debate to be had on the merits of Mehdi Hasan's original post?
Or maybe there isn't? Maybe those stuck to blind faith and its inherint bigotry can't be argued with and are best left alone to spout their nonsense wherever and whenever they can?
I suppose it comes down to democracy, at the end of el dia: no European population ever wanted so much Muslim immigration in their country to begin with.
Crabstix - amusing that you compare the Quran to Mein Kampf and refer to Prophet Muhammad as "sick and deluded" and then take offence when I compare you to the EDL. I apologize. They're smarter than you. Instead, let me compare you to Nick Griffin and the BNP.
John - I don't think "crabstix" did "find" them. Perhaps you should read the Quran for yourself before blindly believing copied and pasted references from anonymous trolls on internet blogs.
Lev Bronstein - have you ever read Steyn's diatribes against Muslims? As Johann Hari, no friend of Islamism, a gay atheist himself, writes in his review of Steyn's book for the New Statesman: "[Steyn] writes in a demonic demotic that makes you chuckle even as you retch. But this cannot hide the gaping holes of logic and fact in his argument."
Bobby the Shoe - why don't YOU read liberal, reformist Muslim academic Ziauddin Sardar's takedown and review of Caldwell's book and his nonsensical thesis in the New Statesman:
Martin - I apologize for accusing you of having an "agenda" - but look around at the rest of your fellow anti-Islam commenters on this thread. I don't think you can really blame me for lumping some of you together, can you?
Rafique - good point re hadith but I have a simple response. The reason I don't tend to quote random hadiths is that I believe that many of them are manufactured, forged, unreliable, false, in contradiction with the Quran, etc, etc. You need to study the history of hadith and how they were written/manufactured by the later Ummayads and Abbasids to realise why some of them can bring Islam and the reputation of Prophet Muhammad into such disrepute.
certain Old Testament passages provide excuses for stoning people to death for adultery and the like.
The fact is, however, that unlike Islam, Judaism has always mediated such passages through rabbinic interpretation, with the result that such activities have not been tolerated. Jews pose no threat to anyone -- other than those who try to wipe them out. The sly insinuation that Islam is inherently no more dangerous to life, liberty and human rights than is Judaism is quite wickedly false -- and all too telling.
This is also why the equation of 'Islamophobia' with Jew-hatred is so odious. That's why some of those supporting Baroness Warsi today for her stand against anti-Muslim 'bigotry' themselves display vicious bigotry towards the Jewish people. Prejudice, as I said below, is based on faleshoods of one kind or another -- lies, distortion, absence of evidence. While some people are indeed prejudiced against Muslims, most of what is termed 'Islamophobia' arises from entirely rational and legitimate concerns. Jew-hatred does not.
In short, this is all about the difference between truth and lies. And in western society, where the very notion of objective truth has been written out of the script, many can no longer grasp that difference. That is the real crisis for the west -- and Baroness Warsi has now shown us, twice, that she is part of the problem, not the solution.
Why is Islam exempt from critical analysis? In Western society, there is no shortage of critics of Christianity. Indeed, on many colleges it is open season on anything that has the faint odor of Western Civilization Christianity included even though Christianity, like Islam, originated in the Middle East. One might wonder why Islam, which sees itself as a continuation or fulfillment of Judeo-Christianity, is not subject to the same intense criticism. Instead, multi-culturalism treats Islam as a protected species an indigenous ethos inseparable from a people. Consequently, self-appointed Politically Correct thought-police stifle debate on Islam by shamelessly playing the race card even though Islam is not a race.
There are obnoxious things in Jewish and Christian scriptures - nobody is denying this.
However, to quibble about what the the Bible and Torah say is waste of time. The problem, from Manchester to Malmo, Mumbai, Melbourne, Mineapolis and Manila, is the Koran - and the strange people who believe and carry out the intolerant, violent instructions that are written in it.
see the prejudice lounge is still in full swing
The Edl are a bunch of thick prats btw
I blame the parents
Mehdi, I just staggered that you'd smear me as an EDL member. I mean, that's simply egregious defamation masquerading as a defence: you should be embarassed. It's weak and sloppy for nationally-published journalist, and is, again, the stuff of presupposed victimhood.
Is there any hatred of Islam in my post above? No, only hatred of a garment, in place without Quranic authority, which is self-evidently repressive of women; and which as such deserves hatred. And I'm merely pointing out that it is preferable to put living people before a strict observance to writing on a page which, if universally applied, would have horrible consequences.
Your response one that you would rightly criticise an vulgar advocate of Israeli policy for - branding a critic of Israeli policy an anti-semite, and so on. It's a crude, childish and divisive rhetorical technique. And it's rank hypocrisy from someone who should - and I think does - know better.
You are becoming the Muslim Jonah Goldberg: take stock.
thanks for your reply. I am aware of Johann Hari, and of his views of Steyn. We don't have to agree with Hari, though, do we ?
This is the same Hari who supported Operation Freedom Fries or whatever it was called. He was wrong about the invasion of Iraq, and he is wrong about Steyn.
Steyn sees what many leftists are now starting to see: Islam is a great threat to European civilisation.
I don't reckon Steyn is a bigot. He is a decent Canadian liberal whom Islamic nutcases want to silence.
Dear Crabstix - re Mehdiy's spelling miskate, it's a good point. Many apologists for Islamism like to look for Jewish names. Unless they're the names of useful idiots such as Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky.
Were immigrants encouraged because they were Muslim rather than because they provided labour?
I think everyone has a love hate relationship with Mehdi lol.
It must be so frustrating for Mehdi to read this. His wife is American, and all he ever does is rant about how Muslims should be better people, adapt and stop being backward, I have heard him say this ten times at least, and he's even been called a "racist" against Pakistanis.
So much ignorance here, Islam is very complicated people, its not black and white, you think Islam is the Islam that you read on the news!!!! I cant even be bothered to start wasting my with people here.
There is a saying I will leave you with... its by a man Called Imam Ali cousin of Prophet Mohammed...
"Few are the scholars that bring about knowledge, few more are the educated he think for themselves, the rest are like the sheep guided by the shepherd, they are like the waves, moved by the direction of the winds".
Agreed, just as Zionists give Judaism a bad name, the Catholic church disgraces Christianity, and those fools who dance around Stonehenge lessen our respect for Hawkwind.
Mon the atheists!
This is why most people in the UK are fed up with some Muslims.
Mehdi, your argument seems to be along the lines of the old NRA slogan 'Guns don't kill people - people kill people'
As you say, many of the things Liddle is complaining about isn't actually in the Quran, but the fact remains that these things are being done in the name of Islam whether you agree with them or not. Just this week we've had the suicide bomb in Moscow, another in the Phillipines and another at a Shiite pilgramage in Iraq.
As I've said before - perhaps a little less shouting Islamophobia - and a little more towards denigrating and combating Islamic fundemantilism in your column probably wouldn't go amiss.
Mehdi Hasan is a contributing writer for the New Statesman and the co-author of Ed: The Milibands and the Making of a Labour Leader. He was the New Statesman's senior editor (politics) from 2009-12.