The popular theory of 'radicalisation' just seems to amount to 'Monkey See - Monkey Do'. Roshonara Choudhry saw a video on YouTube telling her to commit murder - so she did. So all we have to do is stop anyone seeing the same video, or any video telling anyone to do bad things, and there will be no radicalisation'.
This is a wicked perversion of language and politics. The 'root' of Choudhry's political attitude was not a public video-sermon by a religious micro-sect, but a series of political and economic decisions taken over decades and effecting millions of real lives. It is the world which radicalised Choudhry, not words or pictures. The roots of her anger were real, not imposed. Whatever her crime, she is not a monkey.

@Sven
Just who have the nations of Islam declared war on, who have they rained down shed loads of bombs on?

Your hatred of Islam is blinding you to the reality of history over the past 200 years.

@Ehtch - thanks for your support, much appreciated.

@Lou
You're certainly right that a combination of cultural and social pressures were also in action: it's not just that she was making a free and abstract philosophical enquiry, and came up with some unpleasant answers. My problem with "liberal Islam" is that while it may relieve the pressure on some discriminated groups, it's unlikely to go mainstream. Yet people will use its existence to excuse non-rational and superstitious practices (e.g. following a holy book, or basing morality on the will of God rather than humanist considerations) which tend to be associated with mysogny, homophobia and violence. Out of interest, what you said about "with any religion too" is true - I'm not an islamaphobe, I'm just a secular humanist who finds all religions troubling - but does that mean you are largely opposed to religion as a component of a truely progressive society? Do you feel that secularisation should be an aim of the liberal-progressive Left? Or does "good religion" - which is tamed and compliant and liberal - have a place too? My worry is that given freedom of thought and expression, if we accept that religion has a key role in society (as Blair did, for instance), then we can't really ensure that it ends up as the "good religion" we like rather than the equally (in)valid "bad religion" we don't like.

Mrs Nobody - your wrong - you'll be quoting the Crusades next...!

By any objective measure, Islam - the "Religion of Peace" has been the harshest, bloodiest religion the world has ever known. In Islam there is no peace unless Muslims have power - and even then...

Mehdi,brainwashed by radicals...was she crazy so she was attracted to islamism or did islamism make her crazy,you decide.

70 die in Pakistan mosque attacks

A suicide bomber has killed 67 people at a mosque frequented by tribal elders opposed to the Pakistani Taliban.

Hours later, three people died in a grenade attack on another mosque associated with anti-Taliban militia.

The first attack happened at midday on Friday in the town of Darra Adam Khel, a militant stronghold which lies on the edge of Pakistan's semi-autonomous tribal region.

The bomber, whom authorities said appeared to be a teenager, ran into the mosque where several hundred worshippers were gathered for midday prayers on the holiest day of the week. He detonated explosives around his waist.
It was the deadliest suicide bombing since a pair of attackers killed 102 people and wounded 168 in the Mohmand tribal region in July. That blast targeted tribal elders resisting the Taliban who were meeting a government official.
...Later three hand grenades exploded during evening prayers at a mosque in Peshawar's Badhber district, 14 miles from the first attack. Along with three dead, 24 people were wounded, said police official Ejaz Khan....

http://news.uk.msn.com/world/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=155174475

Mrs Nobody - I dont hate Muslims, I said that...please don't use your leftist tactics of demonsing someone who is speaking the truth and reporting facts.

Robin Hood - your an Idiot, comparing whats going on with Islam and the Jews in Nazi's germany is wrong on so so so many levels that I cant even begin to start but you dont see Jews blowing themselves up in German restaurants. Also the contribution the tiny tiny tiny Jewish people have made to the world far outstrips the nothing contribution from Muslims who lets face it without the oil fields would be picking there feet in tents right now.

Oh I didn't think you were an Islamaphobe at all. I'm not against religion, it's the individual's choice so no I wouldn't push for a more secularist society at all.

For me it's not about good or bad religion and which can have a place or not or whether any religion has a place in the modern society - because then we become equally as authoritarian and oppressive as those religions we distinguish between when defining them as good or bad; plus you'll never get a consensus on what is good or what is bad. It's simply about good or bad interpretation of religion.

The theology is not really the issue, it's the believer, the devotee to the particular faith, the actions of the individual.

People find excuses for all sorts of abominable acts with justifications other than only religious ones. Doesn't matter what the excuse, religious, social. political it is about personal morality and responsibility.

I think you can be progressive and of faith, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Religion is always going to be there, some sort of reverence for a supreme being or beings has been on this planet for millenia.

cant work this one out,where i live on my council estate, there are plenty of poor white young english people living in abject poverty and deprivation and have no hope, but they are not being brainwashed and radicalised into becoming mass murdering suicide bombers and religious hate filled fruitcakes,so why is it muslims are so easily brainwashed into becoming jihadi nutters and bin laden wannabes,i have to ask the question,are muslims born with a jihadi gene at birth where they are prepared to blow themselfes up all in the name of there religion in there quest for 72 virgins in paradise,i cant think of any other religion that behaves like this.my solution,all muslims should convert to buddhism

"Israel has never been the aggressor?" O.O

I have no idea where you're getting this. Read some history and the Goldstone report. And Ahmadinejad DID NOT threaten to wipe Israel off the map. That's what the MSM told you. Israel has one of the biggest nuclear arsenals in the world. Why do you think that they don't openly admit it? It's partly done to make you think that it is vulnerable. It's all hasbara. 25,000 jews are living peacefully in Iran right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney08182010.html

archibald you know nothing about muslims,i debate with muslims all the time, and they are as critical of me as i am critial of them,thats whats called democrisy you muppet,and forget the myth that muslims are left wing or liberal because the majority of muslims in the world are conservative in politics and values,the last time the communists tried to install there ideology on a muslim country they got there butts kicked back to russia by the taliban and help from the cia if you have not forget, olijaan is the type of guy i want to engage in debate with because he is a muslim,so dont waste my time archibald with your ill informed claptrap.

Sorry Stuart but there's been evidence of Buddhist violence and oppression too - across Mongolia, Tibet, Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, Sri Lanka, and India.

Like Islam there are various beliefs and there has been violence between Buddhists of different Buddhist beliefs too.

@ Sven

If your argument was the need to restrict immigration from people who do not support liberal democratic values, or that too much immigration can adversely impact on community relations and the provision of public services, it would sound logical and you would have a receptive audience.

But to say you are against muslims because you think they can't wait to kill us in our beds, and that's why you want to kill them in theirs, is a bit ...erm extreme!

And manipulative, because your views are not made to serve Britain, the West or America, but are made to encourage violent attacks (by others)on the enemies (real or imagined) of Israel. Do you support war with Iran?

If so, you could be called a 'violent Jewhadist'!

sorry lou,my buddhist freinds are a fanstatic people and not violent as a rule,but there is so much you can take off these commies in china and i support there non violent struggle against these fascists in china who are oppressing them in there own lands.

"Revolution Muslim" is Mossad HQ. End of story.

Israel has been doing terrorism since before it came into existense. FACT. Check out it's role in Hamas (they created it!) and the PLO (Abu Nidal). It's all to make the muslims look bad and enable them to keep stealing land, and to help hide that FACT in plain sight.

Western aparthied regimes, like Israel, don't last unless we need them as a bulwark against a bogeyman. Soviet communism collapsed, now muslims are the new commies.
"The theory was originally formulated in a 1992 lecture[1] at the American Enterprise Institute..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations

Who talked about "a new Pearl Harbor", and was behind the Iraq War? The same dual American-Israeli citizens. For pity sake, wake up and do some research!
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/02/06/crotch-bombers-radical-cleric-an...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2009/12/30/is-israel-controlling-phony-terr...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/01/24/israel-please-no-more-bin-laden-...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/10/24/gordon-duff-gadahn-call-to-attac...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Col1EC4naKE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsUtvOW6SR0

Can you say, "agent provocateur"? :P

@Lou
Quite correct about the Buddhists. And indeed most people would be surprised to know that the most aggressive campaign of suicide bombing was actually by Hindus (the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka) not Muslims.

I think saying that it's about good and bad interpretations of religion, rather than good and bad religions, is semantic: the "good Islam" that Mehdi wants us to believe exists, might as well be a different religion to the "bad Islam" of the terrorists. But what right do you or I, as non-muslims, have to tell a believer that "you're interpreting Islam badly". Their more aggressive, less liberal reading of the Quran and Hadith is just as valid (as a literary reading) as the one that we'd prefer them to have. A lot of harm would be avoided if people didn't assume that just because they saw something aggressive in the Quran or Bible or Gita, that it is actually true.

It strikes me that modern progressivism is based largely on Comtian positivism, and a rationalist materialist understanding of human existence. Some people of faith have stood up for "social justice", but since they have a system of ethics and values that is necessarily book-bound to ancient times, and the rights of women and minorities have rarely fitted well into that. Besides, ultimate social justice can only be attained by following evidence-based rational policies, not relying on what a constructed "God" might or might not have preferred judging by the writing of long-dead "prophets".

Religion in the UK currently has a protected status - there is compulsory religious programming on TV, there are faith schools, we allow some exceptions to hate speech laws when gays are discriminated against on religious grounds, we recognise certain religious arrangements e.g. Islamic polygamy gives a tax status of "man and wife", many laws in this country are based on traditional Christian values rather than universal humanist ones, we put bishops in the House of Lords, we have national services of remembrance in cathedrals not secular halls. Despite all those things, religion is undergoing large-scale decline, and what is left has proven to be a bulwark of conservatism. I think it's true that by removing the public status of religion, the Progressive Left could accelerate this erosion, and reducing barriers to greater social liberalism. It's certainly true that the British Left has been much less anti-clerical than the Spanish, French or Portuguese Left - perhaps a result of Christian Socialism's impact on the Labour movement?

Belief in a supreme being is something that several civilisations have done without - Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism largely avoid the "God" concept in most incarnations. Belief in an abstract "Spirit" or "Ultimate" or "Heaven" is rather more widespread. But there are places, particularly in Europe, which are basically post-religious. Sweden, Estonia and the Czech Republic are well-known examples - there are sizeable towns in North Bohemia in which there is no trace of religion remaining, with Catholicism and Lutheranism replaced by a mixture of indifference and active disbelief. Progressive health and social policies, and scientific education in schools, face far fewer barriers there than they do in Britain. Such a trend can only be seen as a positive development. And promoting the trend by secularising our media, education, political and legal systems would hardly be oppressive.

Leave Mrs Nobody alone. If you have a problem with Mrs Nobody, then you have a problem with me, ahem!.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jy7VB49jIc

@ Sven
" I dont hate Muslims..... the nothing contribution from Muslims who lets face it without the oil fields would be picking there feet in tents right now."

I think your own words belie themselves.

You're peddling prejudice not facts.

Leftisforward,

Yes I stand corrected on the word being, I knew that was too specific after I posted and should have used the abstract terminology you mention but nevertheless belief in something bigger, other than what is of this world, has been around for a long, long time.

A very fair point on secularisation regarding particular fields -media,education etc, but I don't think you can secularise society en masse. Secularisation may happen gradually in a progressive way but it is not something that can or should be instantly vanquished with a stroke of a pen and enshrined in Law.

I take your point on good and bad being semantic and concede interpretation is probably not the best word to use either.

I'll have to have a read up on Comtian philosophy before I can comment on that.

Well as we've thrashed the subject out, I think I've shot my own point about personal morality in the foot. Whether it's personal or collective, morals and ethics, though generally deemed to be'good' and honourable, can just as easily be defined as bad. Therefore I retract the personal morality and responsibility bit of my argument regarding religious interpretation.

So basically no, I don't have any answers but I do believe it's a personal choice,personal right and personal freedom to follow a religion. Removing religion from society will not make it go away and despite it being the common denominator in so much strife, death and destruction, removing religion will not make for a less violent and more tolerant society in my opinion.

I'll get back to you on Comtian too :-)

"We love death as much as the Jews love life....
The Motto of Hamas." - Sven

Of course, what Sven almost certainly doesn't know, is that it was Israel who purposely created Hamas to deliberately destroy the peace process.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

Just another example of Mossad's motto, "By way of deception". :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfhg0Gun0eQ

But of course, when a little sheep like Sven is confronted with FACTS, they will always look like a conspiracy theory. And that's just another of the many logical fallacies he's been guilty of. Tsk tsk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kureFeGmoDI

But let's face it, Sven is a complete lost cause when it comes to the truth, and most likely always will be. And that's just sad really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ_v5fwW9fE
http://www.counterpunch.org/finkelstein01132009.html

All sides in a war invoke God and say he's on their side (no he's not he's on ours!)

And the gratuitous bombing of the middle east incites anger among people of all faiths and none.

Muslims are particularly agitated, because its mostly muslims who are being killed and because the war is being dishonestly promoted by the preachers and the pro-war/neocon media as a conflict between 'Islam and the West.

But imagine the response of catholics, if catholic countries/Vatican were being bombed.

The middle east conflict involves a range of national, religious, ethnic and cultural disputes, but at its core is the American/neocon policy of kill everyone first and ask questions (maybe) later!

Resolve this and incidents like e.g. the attempted murder of Stephen Timms will become rarer than they are now.

Dave - I have never said that all Muslims are extreme, but there are many that 'Misunderstand' Islam according to you and Hussain and what is banded around is that Islam is the religion of peace - which it clearly isn't.

I'm not saying all Muslims take note of the violent and texts but many do, too many on a daily basis and it needs to be discussed in open and honest debate without the deflection of 'oh its all because of the Iraq war - or which it clearly isn't true - or being called an Islamaphobe.

I want peace and freedom and human rights for Women, Gays and minorities which doesn't exist in Islamic countries - these issues get swept under the carpet. We keep knocking our own leaders but in reality most people in the UK take the freedom we have for granted. I would hate to live in an Islamic country without the ability to be free.

I dont want Sharia law in the west in one iota but there is a creeping stealth Sharia finding its way into our lives, in france a women was stoned to death - it needs to be cut out.

War with Iran - only if they start but something preemtive might have to be done, I don't know I'm not a military strategist.

@ Sven

I'm sorry, but that is some of the biggest garbage I've read on this site. Leaving out the proportion of manufactured terrorism (false flags, agent provocateurs, patsies), research has proven the real cause of most genuine terrorism.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/1010/Researcher_Suicide_terrori...

Backing corrupt governments who are suppressing their peoples, like Yemen and Israel, has the same effect too. Iran became a theocracy after we toppled it's democratic government.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

Still, never let FACTS get in the way of hate-filled propaganda I guess.

ONE LAST TIME: AL-QAEDA IS A MYTH.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/10/22/al-qaida%e2%80%99s-affiliates-th...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-hYorNi0nA
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13664.htm
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hijackers.html?q=hijackers.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/1559151.stm

"Al Qaeda is an Israeli gang using Islam as a cover".
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-qaeda-awlaki-2010110...
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n06/tariq-ali/unhappy-yemen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Col1EC4naKE

You seriously need to start investigating exactly who is making fortunes from all the increased security that's being forced on us. Because, if the majority don't wake up pretty damn soon, it may be too late. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26737.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26740.htm
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/02/06/crotch-bombers-radical-cleric-an...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/10/24/gordon-duff-gadahn-call-to-attac...

We love death as much as the Jews love life....

The Motto of Hamas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4

people will never learn by history lou,i like reading about medeival history and at the moment there is a excellent drama on channel 4 on satarday nights called pillars of the earth written by ken follett,this drama in my view is a reflection of what is going on in todays society and as a ordinary geezer living on a council estate and unemployed,sometimes i think we are still living in the 11th century and we have gone none forward.

If you view the world through a prism of religion, then all actions are religiously motivated.

And its easy for some to believe neocon forgeries, such as, 'the protocols of the learned elders of Islam', which outlines plans for Muslim world domination!

However if you look through a plain glass window, you will see human motivation includes national, economic, ethnic, tribal, cultural and social considerations as well.

Obvious really, which is why I suspect the Muslim threat is more manufactured than real and used to divert attention away from the real causes of middle east conflict.