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RSSShould the “fire extinguisher” protester be charged with “attempted murder”?
Debating the appropriate punishment for violent demonstrators.
By Mehdi Hasan Published 13 November 2010 13:29
A 23-year-old student from Anglia Ruskin University in Cambridge suspected of hurling a fire extinguisher from the top of Millbank Tower during Wednesday's tuition fee protests in London has been arrested by the police "on suspicion of violent disorder".
The Guardian has a video of the fire extinguisher falling from the roof here. One police officer told the paper that the extinguisher had "missed him by inches and would have killed him if it had hit him".
The chair of the Police Federation, Paul McKeever, has called for the student to be charged with "attempted murder".
But isn't that a bit excessive? Don't get me wrong. I may support protests against spending cuts and tuition fee increases, but I also happen to think that the authorities should come down very hard on anyone found guilty of violent disorder or destruction of property. Protests should be peaceful and non-violent. The thing is, are we really supposed to believe that the student on the roof threw the fire extinguisher with the intention of killing someone?
What do you think?
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Mehdi Hasan is a contributing writer for the New Statesman and the co-author of Ed: The Milibands and the Making of a Labour Leader. He was the New Statesman's senior editor (politics) from 2009-12.
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70 comments
It would be wrong for a student in a moment of madness to be nicked for attempted murder, especially when it was all in the heat of battle, and luckely no-one got hurt; fine him and send him home!
'Never in a month of Sundays will a charge of attempted murder stick or get past the Crown Prosecution Service. It was certainly a reckless act but the intent has to be shown to be in the perpetrator's mind to kill someone. Lesser charges could be considered but in no way will it be attempted murder.'
Do they use mind reading machines in court to prove what defendents were thinking?
I think the fact that he dropped a fire extinguisher and not a feather over a crowd shows what intent he had, maybe?
If this had been a BNP protest and a BNP supporter had done this, I doubt people would be making excuses for him like this.
Video of it here - something not quite right with it, or it could be my eyesight. Checkout the white band round most of its top, or not...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYLyOvpPewY
Do policemen who belt the living daylight out of protester get charged with attempted manslaughter?Did the thing hit anyone?? From all accounts no.
Yesterday there was an article where a British politician advocated to give Robert Mugabe sanctuary in Britain. Everyone know what kind of villain Mugabe is.
Now many call for the head of a guy who missed with a fire extinguisher.
Just get your priorities right.
From southhampton? Hang him and his family then.
well you name this politician here and now john global who dares to even think about giving that bastard mugabe sanctuary in the uk because this is the first in have heard of this,so come on man,name this politician so we can rid him out of parliament,i think your making this up john global..
How can a mere, puerile NHS. clone or similar be expected to realize that throwing a heavy weight off a building could kill someone? These ordinary man and women keep order on our streets at great personal risk. Give him an 500 MB. I pod and have done with it.
Paul O'Grady pointed out on his show that it is very dangerous to chuck fire extinguishers off roofs; they are far more useful as battering rams.
A missile got thrown. No one got hurt. No story.
Possibly there should be prosecutions for deliberate assaults that led to death; like that of Ian Tomlinson a year ago.
Because this student will most likely receive a custodial sentence, he's out of university and will find it very difficult to obtain a professional job, having a criminal record, this one moment of madness as probably ruined this young mans career opportunities. Violence beget violence. The NUS should be presented with a bill for the damage it's members did? and by the way seeing anarchists rioting demanding bigger government pathetic!! This magazine along with John Pilgers article calling for direct action well this is direct action it's mindless hooliganism, pointless and counterproductive.
It depends what his mens rea was at the time and whether his action was premeditated to injure and cause severe harm. Only the court can discover that. If the facts show mens rea, then he deserves all that he gets.
Yes I agree his committed attempted murder. Charge him.
It seems more like criminal negligence (a bit like reckless endangerment of life in US law) to me. That is, if someone had died, the charge would probably have been manslaughter rather than murder. I would have thought the CPS would conclude they'd have a better chance of getting a conviction for negligence than attempted murder.
A Student. If you can't do the time don't do the crime!! Many of these 'criminals' will be arrested will stand trial and will be found guilty, ending their university life.
Take it from me, spending time inside a cell 9ft 9ft with 3 other blokes, some may have mental illness, shitting and pissing and eating in the same room, 23 hours a day is not pleasant. And for someone from a posh-background, it will be terrifying, because you will not be liked!!
I find the video very amusing actually. 'Stop throwing shit' coming from the protesters at ground level shows that most in attendance at Millbank Tower were probably observing the violence. But the dude that threw the extinguisher should be treated harshly indeed.
Hmmm... can you have a charge of attempted manslaughter?
I though McKeever's call was idiotic and reactionary. Perhaps if there were witnesses who could testify that he appeared to be deliberately aiming it at the police below him then attempted murder would be an appropriate charge. As it is, it is far morely likely that it was simply an appallingly reckless and stupid act, committed with no intention of killing anyone. I don't know what the appropriate charge would be, and I DO think he should be charged, but in the absence of specific evidence to the contrary, he should NOT be charged with attempted murder - that is ridiculous.
Surely you would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he intended to kill someone. Under the circumstances I think that would be increadably difficult to do.
There is also the wider issue of whether the other protestors who damaged the Milbank building should be charged and prosecuted, and whether the NUS would or could defend them whilst also condemming their violent conduct.
The remarkable and brilliant student action at Millbank has produced some predictable frothing at the mouth from the establishment and right wing press. Cameron has called for the "full weight of the law" to fall on those who had caused tens of thousands of pounds of damage to the expensive decor at Tory party HQ. Responsibility is being placed on "a violent faction", after the march was 'infiltrated' by anarchists.
There are an encouraging number of initiatives to show solidarity with the arrested students - something that is vital if they are to avoid the sort of punitive 'deterrent' sentences handed out to the Gaza demonstrators. A legal support group has been established and the National Campaign against Cuts and Fees has started a support campaign. Goldsmiths lecturers union has publicly commended the students for a "magnificent demonstration".
This is all much needed, as the establishment is clearly on the march with this one.
Not a premeditated 'murder,' but definitely an attempted manslaughter charge.
If you're 23 years old, you really ought to know that if you hurl a fire extinguisher off a roof, you can kill someone.
DO get the name and number of a good lawyer you can call if things go badly. The support group has the names of recommended lawyers on their site. Take a bit of time to read up on your rights in custody, especially the benefits of not commenting in interview.
DO be careful who you speak about this to. Admit your involvement in criminal damage / disorder ONLY to people you really trust.
DO try and control the nerves and panic. Waiting for a knock on the door is stressful in the extreme, but you need to find a way to get on with business as normal. Otherwise you'll be serving the sentence before you are even arrested.
If this is a crime worthy of a charge of attempted murder, so is every reckless driving offence on record.
A woman stabbed 50+ times and who miraculously survives? Attempted murder, apparently. A kid who, in a reckless moment, releases an extinguisher from the roof which(extemely fortunately) didn't strike anyone on the ground? Attempted assault - at best.
The whole country's gone mad.
A charge of attempted murder is clearly inappropriate.
All violence should be condemned strongly - including the structural violence being initiated by this Cameron/Clegg alliance.
I would also like to see the police pursuing the murderer of Ian Tomlinson with such vigour.
The Torygraph has published an irresponsible and frenzied 'shop-a-student' piece and the Met are clearly under pressure to produce 'results' after what they have admitted was a policing "embarrassment".
51 people have been arrested so far, and the police have claimed they took the details of a further 250 people in the kettle using powers under the Police Reform Act. There may be more arrests to come.
Students who are worried should consider taking the following actions:
Totally irresponsible act and unecessary.
Attempted murder? No. To charge him with attempted murder, you've got to prove he intended to kill someone, same with a GBH charge - that he intended to cause GBH or ABH.
The only realistic charge is assault and affray.
It would be wrong for a student in a moment of madness to be imprisoned for attempted murder, especially when no policeman faced any charge of assault, manslaughter or murder for Ian Tomlinson.
If this student does get charged with attempted murder then he's being used as a warning/example to others and that would also be wrong but I can't see how the CPS could have sufficient evidence to bring an attempted murder prosecution.
If you have been arrested, or had your details taken - contact the legal support campaign. As a group you can support each other, and mount a coherent campaign.
If you fear you may be arrested as a result of identification by CCTV, FIT or press photography;
DON'T panic. Press photos are not necessarily conclusive evidence, and just because the police have a photo of you doesn't mean they know who you are.
No. The idiot deserves to spend some time behind bars for endangering lives, but unless they can prove the student was aiming for the officer then this is surely just on par with a drunk driver who careers off the road and narrowly misses a pedestrian?
DON'T hand yourself in. The police often use the psychological pressure of knowing they have your picture to persuade you to 'come forward'. Unless you have a very pressing reason to do otherwise, let them come and find you, if they know who you are.
DO get rid of your clothes. There is no chance of suggesting the bloke in the video is not you if the clothes he is wearing have been found in your wardrobe. Get rid of ALL clothes you were wearing at the demo, including YOUR SHOES, your bag, and any distinctive jewellery you were wearing at the time. Yes, this is difficult, especially if it is your only warm coat or decent pair of boots. But it will be harder still if finding these clothes in your flat gets you convicted of violent disorder.
DON'T assume that because you can identify yourself in a video, a judge will be able to as well. "That isn't me" has got many a person off before now.
The poster above is obviously an ignorant (foreign?) person who does not know English Common Law. Murder and all other crimes require intent, "guilty mind", mens rea. Premeditation is the difference between murder and manslaughter. I only studied as much law as it took for my journalism diploma course and I know that. So should you, Mehdi Hassan. What do they teach middle-class journalists on the privileged papers these days.. Don't ASK: vox populi are last refuge of a coward, PARTICULARLY when applied to legal stories. FIND OUT; EDUCATE!
DO keep away from other demos for a while. The police will be on the look-out at other demos, especially student ones, for people they have put on their 'wanted' list. Keep a low profile.
DO think about changing your appearance. Perhaps now is a good time for a make-over. Get a haircut and colour, grow a beard, wear glasses. It isn't a guarantee, but may help throw them off the scent.
DO keep your house clean. Get rid of spray cans, demo related stuff, and dodgy texts / photos on your phone. Don't make life easy for them by having drugs, weapons or anything illegal in the house.
First and very importantly - the fire extinguisher was DROPPED, not thrown or hurled. The Channel 4 video from the roof makes this very clear - it fell straight downwards. Secondly, was it deliberately dropped or accidental? It's not clear from the video, but it could have been accidental. Numerous fire extinguishers were let off from the roof - I saw three plumes of foam when I passed Millbank around 3. It's possible that he was just holding it and it fell. Third and as has been pointed out, a charge of attempted murder would require proof that he deliberately tried to kill a police officer. He could just be an idiot.
Of course he must be charged with attempted murder. If you drop a fire extinguisher off a tower block where people are standing below than you do so knowing you stand a good chance of killing someone. And tamsinchan, what are you talking about? It was inches from hitting someone - and if it did then without doubt they would have died. You'd have to be a moron not to realise the consequences of your actions - and thank God we are still just about responsible for our actions.
Smashing windows: no one gets hurt.
Throwing a heavy object (fire extinguisher) from roof: some one can die.
The culprit should be charged.
Imagine the fire extinguisher hit a police officer and kill him/her.
@Paul Evans
It didn't hit anyone. Fate was kind and, no doubt, the student in question is the most relieved of all. It was a monumentally stupid, reckless and potentially deadly thing to do but, miraculously, noone was hurt. He should be charged with a lesser crime, definitely. However, intent alone is not enough to charge someone with attempted murder. If it had struck someone - a very different matter. In that case, manslaughter would be more appropriate.
Yes, sling him in the clink for being so bloody thick
@tamsinchan
I know it didn’t hit anyone, that’s why he should be charged with attempted murder rather than murder. Intent alone is not enough to charge someone with anything, you also need the act. In this case, the act was dropping a fire extinguisher from a high building with crowds below it. The law is clear.
Yes, he should be charged with attempted murder. He very nearly killed someone through and he must now pay the price for his criminal behaviour. How would you feel if the fire extinguisher was dropped over the heads of your family? He is clearly a danger to society and belongs in jail.
I guess Benito Aramando and Lou said it all. But I really don't get why protests (especially the massive ones)are expected to be peaceful!? Gov's bullying makes people to react accordingly, indeed the austerity measures' disaster is bigger by far and more widely felt, from a few smashed windows at Tories HQ that I guess are already fixed up. I can't recall any transformation that took place nonviolently unfortunately.
Similarly, should Guido Fawkes be charged for the irresponsible vigilantism involved in mocking up a 'wanted' poster of a completely different person carrying a completely different fire extinguisher?
Should the "fire extinguisher" protester be charged with "attempted murder"?
What a bought and paid for pile of trash Mehdi Hasan is... the talking is over damn him and all his support to damned hell.
Well, one could try 'Impersonating a Galileo experiment', as the poor love clearly had insufficient funds to get to Pisa and didn't notice the crowd of folk underneath.
Ask a truly silly question, and...
It's not attempted murder. It was stupid, I'm not a lawyer but if attempted murder was upheld it would be disgraceful. That's not to say it was a stupid act and conviction should be sought as it could easily have hit fellow protesters aswell as police. In response to the calls of "stop throwing shit" they were aimed at the fire extinguisher alone and were not in opposition to the occupation of 30 Millbank like most newspapers portray. There was huge solidarity amongst students inside and outside the building with little opposition to the destruction of property.
At a time when we face fatal, life changing attacks on our welfare state and public services, with little 'official' opposition, the only available route to halt this massacre is through direct action on the streets and if that entails destruction of property then so be it.
Mehdi, when they find out what an excuse you are for a journalist I suggest a career as a lawyer not be your first choice.
If you drop a fire extinguisher over a crowd then you're an idiot if you think that's not going to cause serious harm if it hits someone.
If this guy is treated leniantly then it will send a very wrong message to future rioters.
If you're a socialist and don't like the fact that the Tories are in government then do what everyone else has to do and try and vote them out at the next election.
you can see the fucker taking aim
jail time whatever the charge
Stuart; I agree that nothing has been said of the utility bill issue, in fact there are a lot of things which are not spoken of these days; we seem to have our priorities wrong.
Sam: Yes we do have mind readers in Court; they are called Juries. Although, I'm convinced the CPS will never let the charge of attempted murder get as far as a jury.
no suprise medhi hassan is backing his extreme left wing brothers,but lets get the facts straight,this is just a bunch of privileged middle class rioting posh boys and posh girls from the leafy surburbs who are just a laughing stock,these bunch of ragbag wannabee one day revolutionarys today are tommorows bankers and company directors,bloody middle class socalists dont speak on behalf of working class people like me,if this riot outside millbank tower was by ordinary poor working class people from inner city council sink estates like mine then fair enough that can be understood but not justified,but the sight of these posh boys and posh girls from middle england rebelling against there middle classness is just sick inducing,i wonder if this student was a right wing protester would medhi hassan and his far left clones have so much concern for his human rights when this posh boy cretin gets charged with attempted murder and ends up in bellmarch prison with the rest of soceitys vermin that infests this country,trouble with the left in this country they are the excuse makers for the terrorists,paedophiles, and all other assorted scumbags that roams the streets daily and medhi hassan is the perfect example of that type of thinking.
Ehtch Tee: Do you mean as in it looks like a different one? From the top it looks like there is no white band, yet when the one hits the ground there is? The one which hits the ground also looks as though it is a larger diameter.
Note also the shot of the bloke at the top putting two arms up once it has landed as if to cheer, hardly the actions of someone who had attempted murder, he would have fled the scene without waiting to get his 'victory' snap taken! It also seems the cheer goes up once they know no real damage has been done, hardly convincing evidence of anything resembling a potentially murderous action.
Attempted murder = no prospects of a successful conviction.
Should the "fire extinguisher" protester be charged with "attempted murder"? YES!!
He should be treated in exactly the same way as the coppers who have killed ordinary people over the years.
Charged??? This man should be GIVEN A MEDAL!!
Look at the real villains, the harm they've done, and their lack of punishment to date!
The bankers destroyed the economy, but still have their millions. Bonus season is back now,on too!
Criminal Clegg and Cameron the Catastrophe. Wrecked the constitution by seizing power after losing an election! Now devastating entire communities near you...
The police. Stifle democratic direct action. Kill protestors at demonstrations. Fail to act against the capitalist hierarchy who have stolen billions, but prey on the poor and weak who no longer have legal means of living or protesting.
I just wish Cameron had been under the extinguisher!! Then we'd have to give the guy who dropped it a whole trophy cabinet of medals.