The Lib Dem Tina myth
There were alternatives to this full-blown coalition of convenience with the Tories.
By Mehdi Hasan Published 16 May 2010 11:28Do you remember Margaret Thatcher's slogan "There is no alternative" (aka "Tina")?
In recent days, I've clashed with Liberal Democrat MPs -- from the unconvincing and uncomfortable Simon Hughes to the pompous and prickly Greg Mulholland -- who have pushed the Tina line in order to defend the indefensible: their opportunistic coalition of convenience with Cameron's Conservatives. What else could we have done, bleat the Lib Dems? What was the alternative, they repeatedly ask?
As someone who was once a supporter and admirer of the Liberal Democrats, in the pre-Clegg era, let me refer to two of Clegg's more progressive predecessors. Here is Charles Kennedy in today's Observer:
I did not subscribe to the view that remaining in opposition ourselves, while extending responsible "confidence and supply" requirements to a minority Tory administration, was tantamount to a "do nothing" response. I felt that such a course of action would have enabled us to maintain a momentum in opposition, while Labour turned inwards.
Here is Paddy Ashdown on the Today programme last Tuesday, rubbishing the idea that a Labour/Lib Dem coalition would be unstable:
If this was a coalition made up of what you might call the panjandrum elements that you suggest, I would not be in favour of it. It is a coalition made up of Liberal Democrat and Labour in which we would dare the other elements if they wished to vote us down and, I can tell you, I can think of no political circumstances where that would happen.
Lib Dem apologists -- like the odious Greg Mulholland and various commenters on this blog -- can get as worked up and outraged as they like. But their own former leaders tell us that alternatives to this Tory/Lib Dem coalition were available: 1) a minority Conservative government relying on "supply and confidence" from the Liberal Democrats, and 2) a Lab-Lib minority coalition governing with the implicit support of the nationalists and others.
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86 comments
Dag - thanks mate! Reading this stream I get no sense either of proportion, nor of the awful time that the poor, the unemployed, and the ordinary people of this country are in for.
It would be nice if I could believe that all of the posters on this forum were willing to look at practical ways we could use on the left to build support and defend services.
It is certainly germaine for us to look at the Lib Dems and see what they do in Government, but we must recognise New Labours faults in all their gory details. FA is right to say we must energetically support constitutional reform - not for party advantage, but simply because it is right.
As for the rather childish insults flying around, I prefer the slow-burning anger of those who built the Welfare State to the showy street corner pyrotechnics on display here.
Peoples lives and livelihoods are at stake - this is no game.
I Just want to commend Mr Hasan for dishing out the 'kickings' he did on Question Time... Well done.
I too cant see where the tree hugging hippies end and the Tories begin!!
Medhi, WOW, did you see Cameron this morning on the Andrew Marr show, how impressive is guy, a superstar.
At last we have a leader...your party had 13 years and totally blew it, join the revolution, it is called the Revolutionary Progressive Liberal Conservative Coalition....everyone else is signed up, don't get left at the station, the train is leaving.
Abdul get a life I have never come across someone so jealous of someone as passionate as Medhi who has produced with his appearance on QT such informed and reasoned debate, if this kind of debate had taken place prior to the talks about coalition and had been read by the parties I am not so sure we would have had the con/lib alliance, Clegg is power at any price, their is one Tory MP in Scotland and some more lib dems wait until after next years elections it will become a Tory and Lib free zone thanks to Clegg. I watched Cameron on the Andrew Marr show this morning and I have a different opinion when asked who will sack the front bench appointments Cameron squirmed he will have the Lib Dems out one by one if they do not resign starting with Vince Cable realising he does not have a real job or voice in the cabinet only reporting to George Osborne. I am really concerned about Cameron's riding roughshod over democracy by having a 55% plus vote to dissolve parliament it almost appears like a banana republic,next will be immunity from prosecution, or making the 30 year rule 50 years and as for the 5% pay cut most realise that going up to a ministerial salary is an increase. As most of the Tory front bench as millionaires it should not make much difference to them. I am glad that next year we will make Scotland a Tory and Liberal free zone. Abdul give it a rest.
i have always said nick clegg is just a tory in drag .
a tory leading the lib dems has to end in tears , no matter what they say the libs lost seats under clegg , and they will loose more . actualy they went down as soon as tory clegg said he wants a labour free uk , that served to frighten thousants back to labour at the last minute , as there was a late small swing about 1.5% back to labour at the end . i beleave becouse of tory cleggs statement . a tory leading a progressive party well they were the libs , it has to end in tears .
@steve. Conservatives and Orange Book Lib Dems are now in coalition, and you speak of them as 'progressive'. What exactly is your definition of 'progresive'. Progress to 1923, 1916, or when. I always assumed progressive meant something to do with moving forwards, but I am happy to be corrected.
who is this Abdul Amir Hassan who can't even spell and instead of even pretending to engage in an intelligent political debate on this site - is just resorting to childish personal insults
- are you real Abdul
- are you over 18?
- are you just jealous of all of the praise and attention Mr Hasan has received from his QT performance
actually forget answering the questions, can you please leave the rest of us grown ups to debate the real fallout from this election
...anyhow my main point was going to be that this coalition is here to stay so we have to deal with it Mr Hasan. That said, I agree with a lot of what you said on Question Time and it was right you brought it up, as its important that the previous bold statements of those now in power not be brushed under the carpet and that they are held accountable to the promises and opinions they espoused during the election campaign when voters were deciding which party they wanted in power. The result of the election meant a coalition was necessary but voters can still hold those we elected accountable.
Well said Abdul...you are 100% correct..superb....Abdul said:
"I loved bug eyed Medhi, really I did.
He pisssed everyone off.
He rubbed everyone up the wrong way.
He's the best advert for NOT voting liebour.
He made a COMPLETE ARSE of himself."
I think the best cut this propped up government should make is to start by putting their grace and favour weekend retreats on the market; and the profits raised will help reduce the national debt!
sarah26 - I agree with what you say.
And for Steve, Abdul and the other whig/tories out there, since when is it progress to go back to the 18th century?
Progressive seems to be a much-abused word. Is it at all possible that those of us on the Left could use the terms Socialist or Social Democrat instead?
As for Mr Hasan, or anyone showing passion, I am all for it. But passion all by itself wont save a single job. Scargill certainly seemed passionate, but along with the equally passionate Thatcher he destroyed his Union, and his members livelihoods.
Passion without intellect is no good to anyone.What is needed is a cool assesssment of the trouble ahead, and the balance of forces on each side. I am sure many Liberal Democrats are CONfused by the situation they are in, and whilst not disloyal to their party, may side with us on some issues against the government.
Just an observation - "revolutionary" means a fundamental change in the social, economic and political order of society. Although sensible people of all parties agree on voting reform, at the end of this Government the City will still call the shots, and the hideous class divides in Britain will be intact. A public school elite will still run the state, the media, and probably two of the three main political parties. Not so much a revolution as a step sideways.
According to yesterday's papers we can see Paddy Ashdown, putting pragmatism ahead of tribal views.
"But, after he (Asdown) sat down, copies of the proposed deal with the Tories were circulated at the meeting. Ashdown could not believe his eyes: there was concession after concession from the Conservatives.
He spoke again: “I’m not happy with where we’ve arrived. I’m not happy at the death of the realignment of the left. But I can see the logic of where we are. I’ve looked at his document. It’s amazing. F*** it!"
Imagine if dear Mehdi could manage to do the same for even 5 minutes never mind 5 years:
Mehdi's next article should be entitled:
"I love democracy but only when it produces the result that I want - Anything else is an unbearable betrayal"
That is certainly the attitude that his post election activity points to.
@PK
Brilliantly said. I'm no Whig-Tory: I'm a passionate Liberal but think this is absolutely the best deal available under the circumstances. REAL progressives might start looking forward to the AV referendum, and the chance it offers to begin levelling the playing field and making our politics more open and accountable. Mehdi is looking to cash in on cheap polemics. Fair enough - it won't last son!
Oh come on! The Liberals sold out on PR, they sold out on Trident and they have probably sold out just for their 5 years of fame in semi power. The labour old dogs should be ashamed for not trying to keep us away from the conservatives. osborne is going to come up with cuts in a week. god help a company that jumped into quick ill informed decisions like that.
@Kevin: Exactly.
I'm guessing the New Statesman will gradually become the official David Miliband fanzine over the next two or three years.
A sizable percentage of the population think he's too weird to be in charge of anything, but i guess you guys know best.
I should also add
@FA - excellent posts once again
the coalition govonment is the most exiting peace of democracy in a life time please never come on question time ever again you stupid stupid moron! both parties will make consessions it allows for a bigger voice to the voter thats what a coalition govonment means!
ur a complete idiot! we have a STABLE! govonment!
@Allan Sayers
The Lib Dems didn't sell out on either! Labour couldn't deliver a PR referendum. Neither party was willing to back down on Trident and the Lib Dems weren't strong enough to push the issue.
Coalition politics involves prioritising some parts of your manifesto, and accepting that other parts have to be sacrificed. I'm passionately anti-Trident, but I'm grown up enough to know that the Lib Dems couldn't make it a deal breaker.
Who is this bufoon character Abdul Amir, he need to go mental Hospital right way, this is a very serious case.
I'm no Tory supporter, but I'm glad to see that finally politicians are doing what we pay them for; debating and making compromises to represent the larger portion of the country. By hopefully keeping the lib-dems in power to a certain degree we can have a liberal edge to a Tory government and finally get a fairer electoral system to this country.
Mehdi, I think you're an intelligent guy and was looking forward to seeing you on QT but this militant journalism put me off.
You are like a drowning man clutching at straws Mehdi, of course there will be a few people on the extremes of this progressive coalition who don't want the coalition to work.
The reality however is the vast majority of both Liberals, Conservatives and the country as whole are 100% behind this revolutionary progressive coalition and are backing it to lead us out of darkness of 13 years of Laboor
The cracks are already showing. Politics just got interesting again. I believe labour need to look united to exploit the split when it comes. I really believe Clegg will destroy the lib dems.
Yes Mehdi, and Tom Harris, Blunkett, Reid et al trashing the Lib-Lab idea just minutes after it was floated - that was just a dream. It never happened in Mehdi land, because he's already got his ticket on the Lib-Dem 'betrayal' waaaahmbulance punched and he can't get off now.
Pathetic. Truly pathetic.
incisive and accurate- Cables evident current discomfort and reputed calls to GB( Times) that he didnt want this,show some of the behind the scenes pressures MPs have been subjected to.In the London Evening Standard a few months into his leadership Clegg outlined that a Tory coalition was always his aim if a HP- his talks with LABOUR were a front to shore up his left which so far has believed the Murdoch propaganda as to why they failed as also spun by TINA and now TINOL there is no other legitimacy....thanks Mejdi for cutting through the shit
HMS Coalition will flounder on the reefs of reality soon enough. A ship of fools with Admiral Cameron and Mad Cap'n Clegg on the bridge is doomed to disaster.
Any Lib-lab pact would have made a farce of fptp electoral system underwhich the parliament was elected. It also would have resulted in another general election within a year (let alone cost England dear due to the need to pay off the minor coalition partners). Doubtless that 2nd election would have resulted in a Tory majority. Surely better to try to influence from within and in doing so develop some creds as a governing party, rather than just being a pressure group?
Mehdi, you were brilliant on QT last Thursday, every word you spoke was GODS OWN TRUTH!
Both Tories and LibDems have been peddling this line. What was particularly sickening on QT last week was Heseltine's pious waffle about the "National Interest". What does risking a double-dip recession with premature spending cuts have to do with the "national interest"? What does forcing the public to pay the City's gambling debts have to do with the "national interest"? The gall of a this Tory grandee - a leading member of a Conservative government that almost tripled child poverty - sanctimoniously lecturing us about what's best for the country was absolutely breathtaking to watch.
Elites have always used "the national interest" as code for their own interests. Judging by the excuse-making for this squalid little sell-out, the LibDems are picking up the language of power with remarkable ease
Yawn Mahdi.
Kennedy also said this in the article:
"Like many others I was keen to explore the possibilities of a so-called "progressive coalition", despite all the obvious difficulties and drawbacks. It remains a matter of profound disappointment that there was insufficient reciprocal will within the Labour party – and they should not be allowed to pose in opposition purity as a result."
- His words - they screwed it not us... funny how you missed that bit Mehdi.
Go have a pint of bitter to wash down those sour grapes.
New Statesman = New Labour fud machine.
and demanding GBs head was such a wise way to start an honest negotiation- if a businessperson did this his /her partners would have him committed to an asylum- besides its on record Clegg NEVER intended to deal
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-513240/Lib-Con-pact-Clegg-offers...
@William Haymes
Do you seriously think that anyone would have accepted a coalition that cemented Gordon Brown in power? Even in the Labour Party? David Miliband etc?
Any coalition makes a mockery of the British democratic process. Why should people from a party that came a distant third get to govern. Both Conservatives and Liberals have had to compromise to a lesser or greater degree and in doing so have let down the voters who may have voted differently if their manefestos had showed what would be changed. How can an outcome that no voter wanted be in the "national interest"? Labour will be laughing because they've got rid of doddery Brown and at the next election will look like the only option after the Con-dem infighting begins. By aligning them selves with another party the Libs have also aligned themselves with every negative issue over the next five years. Good luck David and Nick, you'll need it!!
As usual it is ordinary people like me who will suffer from the new coalition. Already the Tax Credits phones have been unplugged in anticipation of the end. Gordon Browns Tax Credits system kept many low income families like mine afloat who will look out for us now? Child Tax Credits RIP.
Mehdi -
Then why are you piling on the Lib Dems over and over, and claiming Labour are the one true path (at least implicitly.)
You're claiming the Lib-Lab pact was a runner and blaming the Lib Dems for walking away. This is plainly not true.
You go on to claim a Conservative Minority Government would have been preferable to the coalition. How would the Tories a) ruling with deference to the right wing and with no liberal moderation b) then going to the country and gaining a majority in an election where the Libs and Labs were broke, be better than what we have now? That's the big question, and one you refuse to answer because you can't. And that endangers your new self-appointed status as tribune of the 'betrayed Lib-Dem progressives' (who according to the latest polling data are few and far between. Betrayed that is. Not progressives.)
The coalition might last a couple of years. Simon Hughes was on Newsnight and QT bleating FIVE YEARS, FIVE YEARS as if it was a mantra.
The trouble this coalition will face and is facing is the internal friction between the views of the Lib Dems and Tories.
Most coalitions are between parties who are cut from the same cloth. CDU/CSU in Germany, Liberal/National in Australia.
I'm not sure the Conservatives will swallow the Libs but their vote will probably collapse.
Marginal seats will go back to Labour and Conservative. Liberals will be kicked back into the wilderness where they belong.
I sympathize with Mrs. Nobody, the honest truth is so many of us are afraid and dread what the future holds!
I only know I will never beleive the Liberal party again!
Thanks for keeping it real Medhi, I am tired of the line that there was no other choice. I would have preferred C&S, but it is what it is. Let's see how long it lasts, 5 years is a very long time.
So you're critical of Labour tribalists *before* the deal is done, yet notably silent in criticizing them both on question time and now. If Labour tribalists are partly to blame then why not take Lord Falkner to task on this issue???
If you accept as you suggest you do by responding as you have to me and Daragh, that there was a lack of "reciprocal will within the Labour party" then you must surely accept that there are only two other possible outcomes. Either the LibDems get into bed with the Tories, or we hand Cameron the keys to No10 in a minority government with all the powers that being prime minister comes with such as the right to call a new election at any point. History as you should be aware teaches us that in that scenario the likely outcome would be that Cameron would call a new election some time in the near future and win an outright majority. This is not a preferred option to either of us is it Mehdi?
There is of course another side to getting into bed with the Tories which relates to voting reform. If we are to go down the path of voting reform then we will almost always find ourselves with coalition governments. This is a new thing for the British people and to jump into bed with a perceived failed Labour government - to form a coalition of losers would damage our ability to argue for reform and for coalitions. The Tories could successfully argue that coalitions are in fact a corruption of democracy where 2nd and 3rd place can steal the election. By joining with the Tories we can successfully nullify their ability to argue against reform. What is Cameron going to say when arguing against reform if he's part of a successful coalition??
What annoys me is the truly tragic attempt to grab the label 'progressive' by this coalition.
The ConDem coalition in Birmingham has been calling itself the progressive coalition for years - and the reality has been job cuts, rampant neoliberalism and privatisation; like other Tory-LD administrations, it is basically a nightmare.
Progressive it ain't.
It is highly questionable the speed with which the coalition was formed. It really indicates prior discussions, for how can such a deal be done with such haste?
Those, like Heseltine (as a contributor above added), who constantly use rhetoric like the 'national interest' seem to have a quite different agenda, and the provenance of those such as Heseltine is evidence enough to this fact.
The Lib-Dem conference today is also indicative of what is to come. The conference is taking place explicitly without the presence of the press and media. Up to a 100 Lib-Dem members have rescinded their support and possibly membership, if there ever was any for this coalition. Charles Kennedy, the epitome of a Lib-Dem supporter is far from agreement with Clegg's approach.
This is less a discussion or debate about the viability of the new coalition government, I for one hope it brings forth interesting options and initiatives, for their is little I can do to change the status quo, but rather it is a debate about what Lib-Dems stand for, and who should give them their support. In short, who are the Lib-Dems. I for one can't give a precise definition.
The whiff of potential access to power meant that both Cameron and Clegg would have sold their souls to the devil in order to gain control of the government. Witness this sad and sordid attempt to stitch up the primacy of the executive over parliament with this 55% deal. Progressive? Echoes of Joe Stalin to me!
Time to draw a line under all this, now, Mehdi?
We have a coalition government which is fiscally to the right of Labour (although only just, given 13 years of slavish adherence to free-market ecomomic orthodoxy) but quite clearly to the left when it comes to civil liberties. Many of us are extremely worried about the former, but very relieved about the latter.
Let's leave speculation on govt. unity to the Westminster obsessed political journalists, and focus instead on action. Action against cuts that will deepen inequality, and action to remind the Labour Party that we expect it to behave to like a proper progressive social democratic party.
Labour will and should remain out of power until they come up with a realistic economic policy/plan. It's as simple as that. Give us a political plan with economic merits and then we are talking. Very sad to say, but a dead dog could run economic policy based on borrowing up until the bubble burst. So what we sorely need is political dsiscussion and development based around a big touch of realism and new economic thinking. If the NS were to lead on that it would be doing everybody a very big favor...
Mehdi is obviously the new Richard Littlejohn – I think he gets paid by the amount of controversial and outlandish comments he can make – trying to make a name for himself without the responsibility of being in a political party.
1. It would be hypocritical if the LibDem say they believe in PR but then form an alliance with the second party to keep the largest party out.
2. Mehdi says elsewhere there should have been a Lab/Lem alliance – which he reckons could break up 6 months down the line where we could have another election – keep it up mate – we can keep holding elections until you get the result you want. These real people, the electorate – must have made a mistake this time.
3. The 10 Bill cuts this year/next year is a bogus argument , 10 Bill is small considering the overall debt and just look out the window to see the real world where real events have caused the UK to contribute to propping up Greece even when the UK is not in the Euro – but it is in the EU
4. Mehdi should get out more, maybe travel to Europe and visit some countries that have coalitions. There he may be able to find an answer to that point regarding how many people from the coalition should get a seat at Question Time.
5. Mehdi – you are not in the Lib Dem party – what is the point of running for election and not taking the chance to prove you can govern when it is handed to you by the electorate for the first time in 50+ years?
6. Can Mehdi say any longer the LibDems can put anything they like in their manifesto as they will never have a chance to govern?
7. All parties break their manifesto commitments when they are in power, read my lips – no taxes, promises for referendums etc
8. Like all extremists no matter what their political views, anything new happens that can’t handle it and run around like headless chickens.
9. Mehdi – keep it up mate!!
Can't help having mixed feelings about this ConLibDem coalition. Didn't vote for it, don't like it and feel let down by Nick Clegg - just as I felt let down by Tony Blair and New Labour with all their promises for a Brave New World. But at least its better than the alternative - a full-blown right-wing Tory government. If the LibDems had got more seats then yes, I too would have preferred a coalition between Labour and the LibDems. But under the circumstances...
Abdul Amir Hassan what exactly is you're problem?
You sound extremely bitter and twisted about everything to do with Labour and then try to tarnish Mehdi with the same brush without any foundation.
Are you a Tory loving, Lib Dem adoring nutjob? This coalition may work, it may not. There are going to be opinions for and against. Whilst Mehdi can express his opinions clearly, succinctly and backed up with evidence, you just go off on a rambling, nonsensical rant resorting to name calling and insults.
You should grow up or just sod off.
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