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60 comments from readers

Yusuf
14 October 2009 at 09:53

I share your enthusiasm, I hope she puts a good performance. A great amount of Tory PR rests on this performance as well.

cityboozer
14 October 2009 at 10:43

It might prove a good idea, but she has not impressed in previous media outings. She might get thrashed.

Tinker
14 October 2009 at 10:51

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayeeda_Warsi,_Baroness_Warsi#C...

Disco Biscuit
14 October 2009 at 10:52

Griffin won't know what hit him. She's a one-woman whirlwind!

Dick the Prick
14 October 2009 at 11:24

Yeah - she will be good. You can't come from Dewsbury and not know when someone's bullshitting which Griffin most certainly is. Excellent article - though a Tory myself I think on this one it has nothing to do with party affiliation; some things are beneath contempt.

Housecarl81
14 October 2009 at 12:30

She's an ideal candidate for this situation, but not a particularly impressive figure generally. The appearance will inflate her credibility beyond what it probably should be, but that's a comparative side issue. When people see Griffin telling two women that they don't belong in this country, I think most will be rightfully sickened.

Ajax
14 October 2009 at 12:41

boring, uninspiring, middle-aged, middle-class white duo, Jack Straw (from Labour) and Chris Huhne (from the Lib Dems)

That is a racist comment. You seem to be a racist.

Why are you given a platform in the New Statesman?

bob smith
14 October 2009 at 13:01

It is in fact those very white, middle-class, middle-aged English people who need to speak up against the BNP. Naturally Muslims would be offended by Nick Griffin. It is white English people who need to stand up and say, "not in my name".

As it happens, the author is wrong. Griffin needs to hear from "his people" as he might characterise it, that he is wrong, and that he does not represent white, middle-class England.

Turkeys don't vote for christmas. Muslims don't vote for the BNP. Some white people do. That's what need to be addressed.

I believe the author is perhaps motivated by a pro-Muslim agenda, when what's required is an anti-BNP agenda.

ExplodingBadger
14 October 2009 at 13:01

@Ajax

Do you actually know what racism is ?

Punter
14 October 2009 at 13:07

Suspect the Baroness might not find it that easy.

Griffin at least had the good grace to get elected. And did it starting from zero.

Comfortable win for Griffin I'm afraid

Mehdi Hasan
14 October 2009 at 13:09

"Bob Smith" - I concede that you do have a point. Of course, Griffin does need to hear "not in my name" message, but how about from someone like Jon Cruddas rather than Jack Straw?

Andy Street
14 October 2009 at 13:15

Good choice. Although I suspect Mr Griffin may be quite capable of hanging himself if given enough rope.

bob smith
14 October 2009 at 13:29

@mhasan. To be honest I'm not sure that the individual to represent the Labour Party matters too much. It's sort-of inevitable that left-of-centre politicians of all ages will find Griffin abhorent. Perhaps Mr Cruddas would be more eloquent in his dismantling of Mr Griffin, for sure.

Your original post was about the Tory Party's representative, and in the case of this debate I believe that the more "establishment" the Tory representative is, the better.

I would like to see a right-of-centre, middle-aged, white Tory representing the next government to stand up and say that the BNP's policies have no support even in the most stuffy confines of the Conservative Party.

It really is important that the BNP is exposed for what it is: a politically isolated throwback to Mosley's blackshirts.

The BNP claims it represents the rights of "indigenous" English people. It's those very English people that must refute this divisive nonsense.

peter
14 October 2009 at 13:36

I hope this programme does not concentrate on Race or Muslim issues, it mist follow the same format as all QT programmes and that is the audience ask questions relating to current news events.

Also I would like to question the author of this article, would you call a Muslim speaker a Christianaphobe or jewishaphobe, why is it that anyone questioning islam is tainted in such a way. When we had free speech in this country and Islam was not a protected species it survived ok.

RH
14 October 2009 at 13:42

ExplodingBadger

14 October 2009 at 13:01

@Ajax

Do you actually know what racism is ?

An excellent question and one that no-one actually seems to know the answer to.

At first it appears only white people can be racist, then recently a white man called an asian pretending to be a white upped michael jackson racist. Muslims cant be racist or sexist or criminals or indeed be called wrong as that will offend allah ...

to be honest this gets ever harder to work out just how big a mess multiculturalness is descending into in the UK and Nick Griffin is merely the head on the top of the ever increasing pimple.

V Gates
14 October 2009 at 13:48

So much hate.

Ajax
14 October 2009 at 13:52

@ ExplodingBadger

I dare say that my definition of "racism" could well be different from yours.

I could not care less for the dangerous definition of "racism" currently being used. Such a definition and much of the political activity that is based upon it is taking us as a society in precisely the wrong direction.

Very briefly, I define "racism" as the conscious and wilful discussion of, and concentration upon, physical racial characteristics which has the effect of bringing separation between people on grounds of race rather than seeing our inherent common humanity.

Currently, the greatest danger to UK society is that it dissolves into racial and ethnic separation.

We must be a colour-blind society and ALL talk of a person’s race should be unacceptable.

All this talk of a person's race, apart from being morally offensive, is in fact grotesquely counterproductive and is fanning the flames of division and future conflict. We should stop all talk of a person’s race; this should be strongly

discouraged. We are all PEOPLE first, not races.

If however you are one of the programmed machine products of the countless race awareness seminars and use the old tired and divisive definitions of "racism" you will probably not agree with me as you will simply not understand what I am talking about.

William Henwood
14 October 2009 at 13:56

Unfortunately the author comes over as fanatical as the BNP.

Patriccus
14 October 2009 at 13:59

Good to hear that ONE of the mainstream parties is taking the BNP threat seriously.

Roshan
14 October 2009 at 14:15

Yes it's good the BBC have got Warsi on. I usually can't stand the woman but will be cheering her on for once.

Scaroth
14 October 2009 at 14:35

"....the boring, uninspiring, middle-aged, middle-class, white duo".

Now what if someone were to substitute the word "black" for "white"?

Thank you for proving beyond reasonable doubt that you are a bigot, Mr Hasan.

Mehdi Hasan
14 October 2009 at 14:54

"Scaroth" and "Ajax" - you seem to have (deliberately?) got the wrong end of the stick. The fact that they are described as a "white duo" is simply a statement of fact. They are white. And this is a discussion about the ethnic composition of the panel so I sort of have to refer to their skin colour, don't I? There is no bigotry or prejudice involved. The fact that they are boring and uninspiring is simply my opinion, based on who they are and how they speak, and has nothing - nothing! - whatsoever to do with their race, ethnicity, skin colour, etc.

Get it?

Scaroth
14 October 2009 at 15:18

Up to a point. But would you likewise defend the use of the phrase "the boring, uninspiring, middle-aged, middle-class, black duo" in whatever context? If I you would, I stand corrected. However, if you would not, it follows you apply one set of rules for one skin colour and one for another. That smacks to me of bigotry. Sorry, but I'm trying to be dispassionate.

pregethwr
14 October 2009 at 15:36

Interesting debate about race here - you could also say that having 40% of the panel being from a an ehtnic minority is one of those distortions the BNP thrive on.

(polling finds people think that the % of ethnic minorities in their area/the country is far, far higher than it is in reality.)

The vast majoirty of the population is 1) white 2) hasn't gone to university. In fact all three of the white people on the panel (four including dimbers) was at public school...

The Englishman.
14 October 2009 at 15:39

Mr. Griffin speaks for a far larger number of the TRUE native population of Britain, than even their nearly one million votes would indicate.

The epithet "racist" has been mis-used by the left and other "one-worlders" to such good effect that people who have the true interest of their ethnicity, (i.e. White), at heart, are frightened to publicly acknowledge their concern that the immigrant take-over of Britain is proceeding unchecked,for fear of being persecuted by the race relations industry, to the detriment of their livelihoods.

Dave
14 October 2009 at 15:40

Sorry we 'animals' as you call us English Christians are daring to have an opinion about our own country.

Gezmond007
14 October 2009 at 15:54

Seen her before on Question time, not very good at all. Loses her temper too easily and blurts out statements without explaning them properly. Not a good move at all.

Sue
14 October 2009 at 16:49

Personally I'd be just as 'phobic' about a white Christian fundamentalist sect settled here and started demanding special treatment and changes to the the laws of the land… most especially if some members of it had already killed both themselves and 52 others on the London public transport system and a subsequent survey found a third of the others condoned their actions..

.

Pete
14 October 2009 at 16:50

@ Bob Smith: Exactly right. I'm not envying Warsi here. She actually has a party line to toe.

Griffin doesn't, and he's free to spend the whole of QT playing the unfairly persecuted voice of the "TRUE native population of Britain" being persecuted by "the race relations industry."

That's going to be infuriating for anyone who has spent much time looking at actual BNP history, and if they lose it and yell at him, it's just going to reinforce the impression.

I hope I' wrong, but I have a feeling this is going to be a train wreck.

@ The Englishman: Must be depressing being a nationalist. I mean, if your "TRUE native population" gets scared by a bunch of social workers, the spirit of Agincourt must be pretty much gone for good, no?

Mehdi Hasan
14 October 2009 at 17:16

Peter - despite Warsi and Greer's presence, I do share your fears. It's easy on QT to play to the gallery and be populist and act like a victim, etc.

summer
14 October 2009 at 17:32

I would like to see a right-of-centre, middle-aged, white Tory representing the next government to stand up and say that the Islamic ideology has no support even in the most stuffy confines of the Conservative Party.

Robert Eve
14 October 2009 at 17:41

The BNP is a left wing party.

It's Labour for racists.

Keith
14 October 2009 at 17:46

You sound a bit racist sir, shame we have to have any white, boring , middle aged idiots in the UK, maybe we should all leave.

summer
14 October 2009 at 17:56

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&;pageId=112751

One FBI official quoted in "Muslim Mafia" says CAIR and the other Muslim Brotherhood front groups differ from al-Qaida in that, while all share the same goals, they use different methods to achieve them.

"The only difference between the guys in the suits and the guys with the AK-47s is timing and tactics," the official explained.

Barbara
14 October 2009 at 19:32

You all seem confident you will 'smash griffin' it may be the other way round, lets face it he's used to dealing with reporters like yourself. I've no worries at all for Nick Griffin is quite capable of looking after himself, intelligent, and I've noticed does not insult others to gain the media's attention, may be others should show the same respect. It is a legal party after all and a million people voted for it, don't get evil because they are gaining popularity all party's have the same opportunties.

Tony the Tory
14 October 2009 at 21:37

Jack Straw is on it to give him a chance to showcase his PC, anti-racist credentials to a sceptical Blackburn electorate who are thinking of dumping him.

Nick Griffin is a very bright and articulate man and whilst I like the choice of putting a Muslim on the panel, I am not sure that she was the right person. A tougher more ruthless type of character would have been better.

Fluffy Thoughts
15 October 2009 at 09:48

Up to a point. But would you likewise defend the use of the phrase "the boring, uninspiring, middle-aged, middle-class, black duo" in whatever context? If I you would, I stand corrected. However, if you would not, it follows you apply one set of rules for one skin colour and one for another. That smacks to me of bigotry. Sorry, but I'm trying to be dispassionate.

Why does Barrack Obama permeate through our media. Tedious!

[P.S. I have a post in "moderation"!]

Ed
15 October 2009 at 10:26

Ian Hislop should have been on this panel instead of last weeks. What is needed is for someone like Ian to expose the BNP and it's leader for the joke that they are, not someone to help reinforce credibility.

Nic
15 October 2009 at 10:40

So was she selected on racial grounds ?

"Cos I'm black. Innit."

I understand your enthusiasm but will the (potential) BNP voters watch the programme and be persuaded? The danger is it might backfire and only reinforce their views.

Yakoub
15 October 2009 at 11:03

You wouldn't catch me voting Tory even if they were the only party in a one person state (sorry, that's a bit too close to Griffin's fantasy polity, isn't it?), but Sayeeda Warsi is certainly a capable and combative politician and I look foward to her giving Nick a public stomping on -- after Jack and Nick have finished having a cosy chat about how much they hate veils, of course.

Johnnydub
15 October 2009 at 11:12

What the rise of the BNP shows is the result of the Labour party playing identity and race based politics for so long.

Also as the left have called anyone "Racist" who has ever questioned immigration, now these same people don't feel ther stigma of voting BNP - they are after all "Racists"

swatantra nandanwar
15 October 2009 at 11:24

Sayeda is a British born Muslim, Straw I think has some Jewish background They should have had Peter Tatchell from the gay community, and possibly a holocaust survivor on the Panel as well. and a black trade unionist like Bill Morris. That might then have put Griffin on the spot; he might even have refused to turn up, and then we'ed all be happy.

DooDahDooDah
15 October 2009 at 12:09

So far as I can tell the BNP, apart from a membership colour bar, do not have a racist policy in their manifesto. This puts them on a par with the Black Police Officer's Association who also campaign solely for their race restricted member's interests.

As the definition of a racist incident is ‘'any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person’ then all that is required is for anyone to complain about your 'boring white duo' comment as rascist.

Do I vote BNP? No.

Itsmyopinion
15 October 2009 at 13:40

The epithet "white boring middle class" is just so insulting and has racist overtones. I for one am totally bored with the ideas you and people like you put forward. Ethnic minorities are generally over represented in the media - this is the case here.

EnragedBrit
15 October 2009 at 15:16

I'm so pleased that they have decided to put a Muslim on the panel. Now Nick Griffin will be able to ask her some interesting questions - like "Do you agree with the Koran when it says that apostates should be killed, that " rebellious" women should be beaten, and that Muslims must not have friends who are non-Muslim?"

And one for Jack Straw - "Do you still believe that the English (something you would never dare say about Somalis and Jamaicans) have a propencity to violence?" And how about this one, "Mr Straw, your colleague Shahid Malik MP has predicted a Muslim dominated Parliament and a Muslim PM within 30 years. Are you happy with the thought of a Muslim dominated Britain? How about you, Sayeda?"

I am very much looking forward to QT!

Ian
15 October 2009 at 17:14

Nick Griffin's fellow guests just need to do a little legwork. They'll soon find the dirt he's dished up on himeself. It's there, on the record, from his own pen, mouth and the company he has kept.

Simon
15 October 2009 at 18:16

You know, I still find it difficult to understand why so many people villify the BNP and leave labour alone. It was not the BNP that told a load of lies about Iraq and instigated the deaths of tens of thousands; it was not the BNP that drove David Kelly to suicide; it was not the BNP that sent British police to Libya to train Gaddafi's thugs; it was not the BNP that invited an IRA terrorist to the Grand Hotel; it was not the BNP that took backhanders from Ecclestone, defrauded the taxpayers and flipped their houses; it was not the BNP that traitorously sold our country to Brussels on a pack of lies; it was not the BNP that has chalked up the biggest national debt in teh history of our country. Who was it? Oh yes, the REALLY NASTY CORRUPT BUNCH OF CORRUPTION CALLED labour.

Mark
15 October 2009 at 21:17

Aren't you forgetting QT is supposed to be a fair and balanced discussion about the issues of the day, not a set up to attack one particular panel member.

What if Griffin doesn't say anything very contraversial but is attacked for 60 mins anyway, who will look like the victim?

What if ,heaven forbid, the BBC doesn't manage to load the studio audience with UAF and lefties and they side with Griffin, will tthe other panelists want to continue with their high and mighty posturing if they are getting booed?

I could understand the bile and hatred aimed at the BNP if they murdered people and blew up buses and trains, but they don't, and those that do are treated with kid gloves.

Mr Commonsense
16 October 2009 at 01:42

The elephant in the room is that under the triple elite parties the UK has gone into terminal decline.Multi culti is a symptom of a degenerative disease that is pushing us to the abyss.Time for a new game to be played in our country's history.And the interest of the truly British should be paramount.So to Jack Straw and his fellow travellers I tell him to take a hike and get lost.

Ken Hall
16 October 2009 at 08:46

Mehdi Hassan, It must be nice for you to see representatives of your ethnic background on television defending and upholding your culture and traditions. The media in this country bends over backwards (rightly) to allow people from most ethnic backgrounds fair airtime to give a representative view.

I remember watching Nick Griffin's interview after he won his seat in the Euro elections. It was the FIRST TIME I had seen anyone on television defend MY traditional culture. It was a revelation to me, and it brought tears to my eye seeing someone with the courage to stand in the face of a diverse cultural onslaught to defend MY culture against a pernicious and relentless attack from all sides.

He never uttered one word during that interview suggesting ANY racist policies. If anything, his words represented a true and FULL multiculturalism that also, uniquely, has room for the defence of the traditional indigenous Brit!

He said he was in favour of Muslims living and practising their faith here, but not in favour of them replacing our culture. He was not against Islam. just Islamic extremism that supports terrorism. I would have though everyone would agree with that view.

Why is it that all the PC lobby have room to support every other culture at the expense of the traditional British culture? Like they are mutually exclusive? As if the idea is that in defending the traditional British culture, one is excluding all others and so the British culture must be erased and replaced by a multicultural, global, patchwork?

I favour a multiculturalism in which the traditional British culture is defended and protected. What is wrong with that?

Mehdi Hasan
16 October 2009 at 16:11

"Enraged Brit" - perhaps you should rename yourself "Ignorant Brit". Nowhere in the Quran do you find a demand for apostates to be killed - indeed, I challenge you to find the verse! - nor did Shahid Malik seriously predict a Muslim-majority parliament. You have misrepresented his remarks which I heard and which were quite clear.

Ken Hall - if you've ever listen to Nick Griffin speak about Islam, you would know that much of what you say is demonstrably false and inaccurate. He refers, for example, to Islam, and not Islamic extremism, as "evil". If that's your view, fine (!), but don't pretend it isn't or sugarcoat it in a pretend distinction between Islam and Islamic extremism. Griffin is an Islamophobe. Are you?

John Carp
16 October 2009 at 23:19

The BNP provide the necessary role of questioning immigration policy and multiculturalism, which has largely been left out of the party conferences. It is one of the benefits of the pluralist multi-party system - protest voting on issues that the government would otherwise ignore.

Multiculturalism, coupled with increased inequality and decreased social mobility under 'New' Labour, has led to the ghettoisation of cities, with different races and cultures clashing at the poor end of the spectrum. This poorly thought out Labour policy has in fact led to the rise in the BNP. Now Labourites such as Mr Hasan want to completely ignore them, correctly pointed out their abhorrent nature and flawed ideology, but also refusing to acknowledge integration issues amongst ethnic minorities, and pronouncing that Labour should give them 'no platform' in a supposedly democratic, pluralistic society. Go to Southall, Luton, Bradford, Oldham, Wood Green, etc and tell me that multiculturalism has worked. It hasn't, and so I am all for the abhorrent BNP pushing multiculturalism issue into the public domain, somewhere Labour haven't wanted it to be for a number of years.

As for Islam, whilst I am no expert, there are some very dubious and belligerent phrases in the Koran which I have been told by moderates is to do with 'inner struggle'.

You have to wonder about this logic given the historicity of the Koran, and particularly the zeitgeist of the times the Prophet Mohammed spoke the words of God to create it. The people of the Arabian Gulf have hardly had a peaceful existence as the crossroads between east and west Eurasia. One wonders if moderates are only moderate because they are handpicking parts of their religion to suit the 21st century better. Who's for some Raki?

itsmyopinion
17 October 2009 at 08:54

That's right Mehdi Hasan, attempt to close down any discussion about Islam by using the you must be effectively racist card: "Griffin is an Islamophobe. Are you?" Alternatively - What is the definition of a racist/Islamophobe? answer - someone winning an argument with the left.

EnragedBrit
17 October 2009 at 19:18

OK - so, I should have said Hadith instead of Koran (though it very much implies the same) for the source of instructions to kill apostates - big deal. Your barbaric religion still teaches that people who leave the faith should be killed.

Where do you stand on this? I know you have described non-Moslems as "animals" but do you really believe that people who decide to leave Islam should be slaughtered like cattle?

jezjezjez
18 October 2009 at 13:24

"EnragedBrit" - you're going to have to forgive me for using the west wing as source material here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI), but what about the Bible's sanctioning of slavery, of stoning people to death for minor injustices (working on a Sunday), etc? History is bathed in horrific acts of violence and bloodshed, ritualised and otherwise. Picking violent quotes from the Hadith is no more profound than doing the same for the Bible, or any other historic text. You can do it with Shakespeare, but obviously people don't follow it as a religion. Still, tell me Coriolanus isn't horrific?

Another example just to re-enforce the point about historic violence and its inapplicability nowadays:

"In Numbers 31:15-18, after his soldiers had killed all of the men among the Midianites, Moses ordered his army officers to kill all of the male children, kill all of the nonvirgin females but to save alive all of the virgin girls for his troops. Prior to this, the Israelites had taken all of the animals and goods of the Midianites and then burned all of their towns. " So Moses, on the word of God, ordered a genocide.

Those who follow Islam or Christianity to the letter are dangerous but that does not mean that either religion is inherently evil.

lutar
18 October 2009 at 14:56

EnragedBrit

I have posted this on another NS comments and i'll do it again. The Old Testament of the Torah and Bible also has some genocidal/ violent quotes. If Islam is a barbaric religion intrinsically then so Judaism and Christianity.

Deuteronomy Chapter 7

1 When HaShem thy G-d shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 and when HaShem thy G-d shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them;

3 neither shalt thou make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

6: "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth.

16: And you shall destroy all the peoples that the LORD your God will give over to you, your eye shall not pity them; neither shall you serve their gods, for that would be a snare to you

Deuteronomy 20:

16 Howbeit of the cities of these peoples, that HaShem thy G-d giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth,

17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as HaShem thy G-d hath commanded thee.

EnragedBrit
18 October 2009 at 15:50

None of the above Biblical quotes are actually instructions for future behaviour, though, are they? They are a blend of Hebrew myth and history and nobody takes them seriously in any case.

The difference with Islam is that the Koran and Hadith are brimming with violent quotes ( supposedly directly from Allah) which are in fact barbaric instructions on how "good " Moslems should behave.

Unfortunately for non-Moslems, these instructions - to beat women, to kill apostates, to kill homosexuals, to kill anyone who insults Islam, to fight the unbelievers until the only religion is Islam - are believed to be valid for all time by a very large number of Moslems.

Don't waste your time arguing with me (an atheist who despises all monotheistic religions) about this - argue with the Moslems who believe that the violent teachings in the Koran are to be followed.

You won't get anywhere, of course - these people are brain-washed from birth. Anyone who believes that a robber, a mass-murdering war criminal, a slave-dealing rapist and child molester was "the perfect man" must be either completely insane or brain-washed.

lutar
18 October 2009 at 17:21

if you substitute the Hebrew people for British or Americans it perfectly describes and fits in with not too distant past and current behaviour of the west, its view of other races and the destruction.You could replace the names of the Biblical tribes driven out with the Native Americans quite easily.

Geroge Bush mentions his Christianity all the time so why should we say its not significant in the motivation of Americans foreign policy? (America invaded countries long before this "war on terror")

PM-elect
18 October 2009 at 21:02

Shove it up your a*se Lutar you jihadist fool.

Wouldn't you be happier in Iran with your "brothers".

lutar
18 October 2009 at 22:03

PM-elect

really mature debating there! I am neither a Jihadist or a Muslim. Strange you would think someone anti American warmongering or anti "war on terror" has to be.

All I have done is counter challenge the view that Muslims are violent because of the Koran says by putting forward a view (true or not) that American Christians and their act of genocide on the nations foundation and following wars are motivated by the bible. It seems rather than debate you are just capable of petty insults that go nowhere.

Rather than chalange this I presume you are going to go carry on with (false) personal insults!