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97 comments from readers

redharry
05 August 2008 at 15:29

This is a party political broadcast on behalf of the hard-right neo-conserative anti-immigrant Policy Exchange which now runs London.

This piece of naked sectarian red-baiting is probably the most right-wing crap ever published by the once Socialist New Statesman - and that includes pieces by Martin's comrade Anthony Browne.

With his experience of justifying the unjustifiable Martin Bright should have a great future in corporate PR. Whoops he's already got the job.

Martin Bright
05 August 2008 at 15:45

Oh cheer up red. La Lotta Continua

knave
05 August 2008 at 15:52

I agree with you on this one Brighty.

Journeyman, whatever their political affiliation don’t deserve compensation.

Although I do agree with Red harry on one point.

When your mate and political mentor the Migration watcher , asylum seeker hating and privatizing the NHS Browne leaves the job as the czar against PC you will say he deserves the cash.

But then again charity begins at home.

Martin Bright
05 August 2008 at 16:23

Er... no I won't

Jonny Mac
05 August 2008 at 16:29

Bright: "What a lovely bit of sun and blue sky we had earlier this summer."

redharry: "Typical neo-fascist bollix from the Islamophobe Bright, promoting Tory blue over other minority colours in a frankly sickening racist display that is comparable only to the ravings of the lunatic anti-immigrant Anthony Browne. What a disgrace that the once proud NS published this right wing, scare-mongering, so called "weather-related" Nazi propoganda."

Morgan097
05 August 2008 at 21:09

Hairy only man in Pyongyang allowed internet access!

Morgan097
05 August 2008 at 21:18

Hairy also deliver great speech Munchen Hofbrauhaus!

Morgan097
05 August 2008 at 21:20

Big shame Hairy on permanent no-fly list.

Morgan097
05 August 2008 at 22:37

Hey-hey, Mr. Hairy:

When you buy farm, which hero you mimic?

Glass cyanide capsule or go boom-boom at Jooish kindergarten?

redharry
06 August 2008 at 00:39

Isn't it time that Martin Bright came clean about his own politics?

redharry
06 August 2008 at 00:43

As for Bright's reliability as a journalist, just read some of the replies to his infamous article

The great Koran con trick

Martin Bright

Published 10 December 2001

http://www.newstatesman.com/200112100017

debunked here

http://www.newstatesman.com/200112170032

aperoxy
06 August 2008 at 08:24

The slurring about a trots pay, eventually turned into a rampage about why they should be payed at all with the work that they had done, but not without a little titter about what exactly a Trot should DO with his money first. A nice dacha? Charity? I think I get it, he's a Trot so he should just go round London explaining to people on the street "Hello I'm a Socialist, would you like some money" with any limited knowledge of trotskyism and trotsky, one wouldn't expect any trot to individually share his wealth than I would him cause any indivdual terrorism, this wouldn't be a step in the right direction.

"These people seriously believed they were establishing a socialist city state in London"

I would suggest that the idea, I suppose, for those who were affiliated with Socialist Action was for there to be a Socialist London, but I'm just as sure that they were under no impression that that was anywhere near close, dare I risk saying, they weren't stupid.

knave
06 August 2008 at 08:32

Martin

You little phibber.

These are your mates, friends, oppos, mon amis and good chaps.

Why should you and the 17th C Irish horse thief (better Johnny) Nick treat these good old boys with contempt or criticize their actions.

For you they are the pathfinders that will shoot ahead with conservative policies that the task force will enforce nationally in 2 years time. You won’t say anything.

Also

The BNP's then national press officer "Dr Phil Edwards" (aka Stuart Russell) complained:

"When I read Anthony Browne's earlier book 'Do we need Mass Immigration?' (Published by Civitas in 2002) I was struck by how so much of it seemed to be cribbed from my writings, broadcasts and newspaper and radio interviews from around 1997 onwards."

Boris calls blacks piccaninies

You went on about Islam fascism at city hall but what about commentating on old fashioned British racism.

These are your new heroes Martin.

Perhaps you can put them on Cowley's list.

Morgan I don’t agree with red harry but stop the insulting. He isn’t going to respond.

Jonny Mac
06 August 2008 at 09:24

redharry, knave -

Seriously, what's your beef here? Is it -

(a) O'Neill etc aren't Trots; or

(b) they are Trots, but that's no grounds their employment to be terminated; or

(c) Bright is linked to Policy Exchange, which has links in turn to people in the new London administration; therefore, he should not be allowed to write about that administration; or

(d) something else?

If it's (c), can you explain the reasoning, because I don't get it.

Morgan097
06 August 2008 at 10:20

But knave,

You never let me have any fun.

redharry
06 August 2008 at 12:09

The New Statesman is supposed to be a journal of the left.

Bright campaiigned against a Labour Mayor in favour of the Tories.

'These people seriously believed they were establishing a socialist city state in London. ' Clearly a crime according to Martin Bright, although he previously charged them with working for a "bourgeois democratic revolution". So when did it become wrong to work for socialism or democracy?

He is promoting the hard right (he calls them centre-right, what a joke) neo-conservative Policy Exchange who now dominate the administration at County Hall.

He pushes the BICOM line on Israel to the extent that he didn't quote a single Arab (although he claimed to have met one) in his propaganda piece for them.

He seems to believe workers should be denied their employment rights if they are, or ever have been Trotskyists. At the same time he glosses over the hiring of the extreme right-wing immigrant hater, Anthony Browne.

Bright should be working for the Telegraph or the Daily Mail/Standard where his political views are more at home, and he can spend more time with Dean Godson and Anthony Browne.

Martin Bright
06 August 2008 at 13:33

Wouldn't be in Socialist Action yourself then red?

A few important point of clarification.

I didn't campaign in favour of the Tories. In fact, I consistently warned that the consequences of backing Livingstone would be a Conservative victory. I was proved right.

I didn't push the BICOM line on Israel, I simply question some left-wing assumptions about Israel. Not the same thing.

The point is that the people of London did not for for Socialist Action or a "bourgeois democratic revolution".

Anthony Browne is not an extreme-right immigrant hater, although I disagree with him on immigration.

PS We are thinking of setting up a separate section where redharry and knave can rant at each other. What do other readers think?

Nick
06 August 2008 at 14:26

I no longer by the New Statesman as you might as well read the Daily (hate) Mail!

Nick
06 August 2008 at 14:27

sorry typo should read "buy"

Morgan097
06 August 2008 at 15:11

Let's see.

One night, Muhammed had a dream about Jerusalem, and next thing ya know it's presto-changeo the "3rd holiest city of Islam."

Quick, tell me, did he have a dream about Las Vegas?

Martin Bright
06 August 2008 at 15:25

Nick... I guess you must be referrng to the John Pilger and Darcus Howe columns. Terribly right-wing

niceguy
06 August 2008 at 20:30

cue witty response from Morgan...

raggedyman
06 August 2008 at 23:44

In an age in which few professional journalists or politicians have clear ideological convictions left and right have become fused into a new 'careerism'. This best explains Gilligan's unremittingly hostile campaign against Livingstone backed by Wadley 's brooding concern for the Standard's circulation. For Wadley the animosity is almost personal stemming back over six years whilst her support for Johnson may have its roots traced back to the 1990s when Johnson, Gilligan, and Wadley formed a cosey coterie at the Telegraph.

Ambition unites them even more than political convictions.

Andrew was scooped up off the road by Boris after the Hutton debacle caused the BBC to rather sickeningly 'fall on its sword' and handed over to Veronica to become lead hound - with alacrity did he set about the demolition of the 'New Labour' Mayor.

It's a dish best served cold I understand.

Why Bright has contributed this worthless ephemeral piece of tittle-tattle masquerading as serious journalism to the 'debate' may never be known - and, frankly, who cares?

It is rumoured that he and Boris share the same wine bar but I treat such innuendo and insinuation with the contempt it deserves.

I understand that few picininnies with watermelon smiles voted for Boris in the recent elections.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 00:14

raggy,

I understand that neither did Richard Reid.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 00:40

And raggy,

What's this problem you seem to have with wine bars?

Now, if you really require professional instruction on the subject, I've got this badger ....

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 02:40

Ah c'mon, raggy,

Own up.

Ya know ya can't resist the slots.

Or the naked showgirls.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 02:48

And supporting one of the latter would convert you into becoming a money-grubbing capitalist faster than you could fart the Internationale.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 03:05

But before you dismiss the notion out of hand, I'm told that the MGM Grand has a pole dancer who's a dead ringer for Hannah Arendt.

gnuneo
07 August 2008 at 04:31

niceguy: "witty" - presumably you were being doubly ironic with that one?

i don't know the ins-and-outs of the mayoral race, or Livingstone's peccadilloes, however i *am* aware than many people who ARE on the left had some quite grave reservations about him. I have also had some run ins with the more factional, divisive and politically fundamentalist types, who by their actions can make you secretly wonder if they are actually MI5 plants placed to de-legitimize, derail and destroy confidence in what is being attempted. Having said both of the above, i am also concerned about the tone of this piece - one can actually smell a touch of that factionalism i mentioned earlier floating through it, even a hint of Murdockian tabloidism!

i can see little reason to rejoice when it appears to be a case of "The Cronyism is Dead! Long Live the Cronyism!".

redharry: interesting links there.

gnuneo
07 August 2008 at 04:35

btw NS, can there be a little more editing to keep the commenting on-topic? A few off-topic (or many off-topic but politically interesting) comments is acceptable, but surely there is a limit to it? Especially when one poster starts making serial spam posts!!

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 05:53

Suggestion For gnumbnuts:

Put the lime in the coconut, drink 'em both together

Put the lime in the coconut, then you feel better

Put the lime in the coconut, drink 'em both down

Put the lime in the coconut, an' call me in the mo-o-o-ornin'

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 08:36

Oh, yes:

You remain the insolent simpleton.

Speak when you're spoken to!

Now, sit and stop barking before your new owners return you to the animal shelter.

raggedyman
07 August 2008 at 10:33

Entering these 'virtual' debating rooms is always a slightly twitchy occasion: you never know when the local nutter is going to arrive.

But arrive he always does.

Is Cowley not installed yet? Must be galling for the Oxbridge set to be passed over for a redbricker from Soton.

Gilligans now gonged brand of journalism is the best we get nowadays even if his so-called 'truth check' articles all focused on black organisations under Ken; did Boris get a truth check?

Here is AG defending his scurrilous one-sided journalism which, it is pointed out, 'may' have shaped Londoner's voting-behaviour:

"No, journalists don't... it's up to the public. We are just doing what journalists should do, which is holding people in power to account. I will do exactly the same to Boris if he becomes mayor."

Journalist of the year. Gawd help us.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 12:48

But raggy,

I'll bet you know all the lyrics to "Back In The USSR."

raggedyman
07 August 2008 at 13:14

Morgy

not beddy-byes time then?

any chance you can airmail me the stuff you're on?

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 13:34

raggy,

Actually, it is about time for me to hit the sack.

But you can buy your own Cuervo Gold!

raggedyman
07 August 2008 at 13:48

what you mean with 'money'?

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 13:49

And you'd drink too if you had a narcissistic badger constantly pestering you to buy him a $15,000 Krieghoff Luger for his birthday!

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 14:02

He says that he suspects being followed by an operative working for Kent's shaving brush division.

raggedyman
07 August 2008 at 14:04

You must be joking.

I've banished mirrors from my place for fear of coming face to face with something 'orrible in the morning.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 14:05

Or as he calls it, the KSBD.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 14:07

As Q says:

"I never joke, 007"

raggedyman
07 August 2008 at 14:11

Among the Grand Cru of Beaujolais Morgan is an outstanding example and offering exceptional value-for-money compared to some of its better known rivals.

raggedyman
07 August 2008 at 14:13

Also Morgy

Try not to take your Cuervo and your pills at the same time.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 14:15

True, true.

But I settled tonight for an '07 Duboeuf Beaujolais-Villages with my pork chops.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 14:18

A few years back, I did OD on Glenlivet and Percodan, but other than heart and cholesterol medication my only vice is this website.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 14:28

Time to tuck in the badger.

G'nite, mate.

gnuneo
07 August 2008 at 17:36

"btw NS, can there be a little more editing to keep the commenting on-topic? A few off-topic (or many off-topic but politically interesting) comments is acceptable, but surely there is a limit to it? Especially when one poster starts making serial spam posts!!"

see later posts for examples.

raggedyman
07 August 2008 at 18:26

gnuneo:

Although Morgan097 is invariably high on some nameless chemical concoction and almost unerringly has nothing useful to contribute to the discussion I would nevertheless defend his right to speak. This is, in part, because to deny him would be a step on a very slippery slope that could lead to the eradication of all jolly japers, rogues, cranks, buffoons, and sundry other rascals of puckish disposition. Such a sanitised censored world would, I would humbly suggest, be a duller, less colourful, less endearing place. But that is not all.

To a degree the constantly hectoring, bantering, mocking tone of Morgy is reflective of a deeper malaise within the life of the Modern. This retreat into a Dadaist world of mockery and meaningless badinage mirrors a much wider malaise besetting contemporary Society - the steady inexorable rise of a new disillusionment and cynicism whose corrosive force now threatens many of our most cherished institutions.

In a sense the reason that the 'serious' section of the magazine rack in the local newsagents is now squeezed in to the bottom right-hand corner, and has become drastically truncated to the extent that it now comprises The Economist, The Spectator, and The Newstatesman, is perfectly embodied in corporeal form by that anti-culturalist, and anti-intellectualist, and ever present irritant - dear old Morgy.

He is both our reminder and our challenge and as good citizens we must not flinch in rising to that challenge.

Besides you can always just ignore him as some sensible folk do.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 19:31

raggy,

I definitely agree with everything you say.

Whatever it is that you said.

But puh-leeze don't debase yourself by attempting to inject logic (sort of) into any communicationn with gnumbnuts.

And overanalysis of my behavior is probably pointless.

At any moment, I could revert to serious advocacy.

I was thoroughly taught by the best in the business at HLS nearly 40 years ago.

raggedyman
07 August 2008 at 21:30

At any moment, I could revert to serious advocacy.

Anything but that Morgy.

Morgan097
07 August 2008 at 23:10

Bless you, my son.

Go forth and multiply!

gnuneo
08 August 2008 at 02:43

raggey: i accept fully the existence of such troubled creatures, and recognise their perhaps too oft-used prerogatives to write whatever they wish - this being the essence of free speech.

however, this is NOT a full forum, and 'discussions' such as they are are limited by the articles upon which to respond - this is why we are notionally referred to as "Posters of Comments".

now, whilst i certainly i can see a point of the non-stop gibbering by the current village idiot (and yet so vastly less amusing than 'harry', whose interminable and mindbogglingly tedious 'arguing' with cybertiger was the precursor to this, more evolved version of the Spammer. Yet at least you got the feeling 'harry', for all his flaws, was actually an authentic, genuine, poster interested in the issues.) there is a time and a place where such should not be appreciated.

On a full forum, where there can be 'afterhours', or 'hangout' or 'flamewars', there is certainly a place for such pulp chatter, and in the right place it can be amusing and entertaining.

THIS however is for political comment - imagine logging onto the Green Party website, and see the posters discussing such absolute crap as above? How many new posters are going to bother scrolling down to find the worthwhile comments to answer? This is a classic disinformation manoeuvre, and frankly any evolved forum would have the more experienced posters putting "DNFTS" after his posts, indicating - Do Not Feed The Spammer. You will note that his own opinions are diametrically opposed to most readers here - yet he spends time to 'chat' on the NS comment pages.

Spammer, and a deliberate one. Until the NSO-L goes full forum, it should be seeking to discourage such behaviour, as it is simply highly inconsiderate of every one else. IMHO anyway, for whatever that's worth.

Morgan097
08 August 2008 at 04:41

gnumbnuts:

You remain the insolent simpleton.

Speak when you're spoken to!

Now, sit down and behave.

raggedyman
08 August 2008 at 11:35

Again gnuneo you go too far. You are in danger of becoming a religious fundamentalist who has spotted a dissenter amongst the flock.

In any case not everything Morgy says is absolute crap. For example:

But I settled tonight for an '07 Duboeuf Beaujolais-Villages with my pork chops.

George is indeed one of the finest purveyors of such wines of the region and Morgy has made a discerning choice here; he clearly has the capacity for rational thought.

Also nobody is beyond redemption not even Morgy. I believe, along with Habermas, in the power of reason to reach even the darkest places. And bear in mind that Morgy has had an unfortunate start in life. This crippling disadvantage has been compounded by his sojourning at that Massachusetts-based lawyer-factory.

True he does deploy the tactics typical of his profession but this should not deflect us from our mission to use the cogency of reasoned argument to persuade and to enlighten - however futile at times it may appear.

For illustration of my point I refer to the recent encounter of Chomsky with Morgy's mentor; despite all the evasive tactics of the trained advocate Chomsky's quiet reasoned approach proved superior and prevailed.

Unflappable patient tolerant reasoned argument is the proper response I would tentatively suggest especially to Morgy who for all his tomfoolery is nonetheless a subjugant of the God of Reason.

Morgan097
08 August 2008 at 13:21

raggy,

Don't be quite so condescending.

I realize that you were favorably impressed when gnumbnuts expressed his solidarity with oppressed (c) Palestinian Arabs by circumcizing his granny live on Al Jazeera, to rapturous cheers of "Allah Akhbar" from the studio audience. But even so...

And if you're referring to Dersh, I found his views in Criminal Law class too leftist for my taste. One of our seminar projects in late '69 was to formulate cogent legal opposition to efforts by Nixon's attorney general George Mitchell to legalize "preventive detention" of "dangerous criminal suspects." I, of course, favored public hanging in order to set a more indelible positive example.

As for birdbrain conspiracy theorist Chomsky, I've never decided which was worse: his glowing endorsement of Robert Faurisson's holocaust denial treatise, his subsequent claim that he'd never actually read the book, or his later private apology to Faurisson for having "betrayed" him. I found the lingistics idiot's minimization of the number of Khmer Rouge victims similarly inspiring.

And I honestly cannot conceive of Dersh having ever lost a fair debate in his life. Probably, because no sane challenger would wish to be so inevitably humiliated.

raggedyman
08 August 2008 at 17:17

Few in the public arena not of jewish parentage would dare to murmur even gentle criticism of the Israeli state these days. HLS even disinvited the Oxford professor, Tom Paulin, after discovering he had made mild criticism of the Israeli state. Still the jewish parentage thing has not enabled Chomsky to escape the label 'self-hating jew' even if the original self-hating jew, Elijah, got the label for criticising an evil 'regime' of the day. Thumbing through my Shorter Oxford I note that there is no word for 'anti-Arabism'.

I, of course, favored public hanging in order to set a more indelible positive example.

What, Nixon you say?

Poor Chomsky worn out with the barrage of charges of Holocaust-denier that he almost deserves the label of Holocaust-denier-denier.

Chomsky also endlessly if fruitlessly pointed out that his defense of Faurisson was of his [Faurisson's] right to free speech and that this was not to be interpreted as his endorsement of the French philosopher's treatise and its contents.

I think you'll find that Chomsky's determination to stay on topic and keep making a solid cogent argument distinguished his portion of the debate above that of AD.

He also managed it without making reference to Dershowitz' brain size.

Nilsey105
09 August 2008 at 00:42

thank fook i am a simple northerner

Morgan097
09 August 2008 at 09:14

raggy,

1. HLS even disinvited the Oxford professor, Tom Paulin, after discovering he had made mild criticism of the Israeli state.

In his Al-Ahram interview, Paulin expressed the view that "Brooklyn-born" Jewish settlers on the West Bank should be "shot dead"; "they are Nazis"; "I feel nothing but hatred for them."

A few days after his words were published, his wish came true: a Hamas death squad shot dead 4 Israeli settlers in their beds, including a 5 year-old girl.

In Britain, incitement to murder is a felony; in the US, he could be prosecuted under the "shouting fire in a crowded theater" exception to freedom of speech protections.

2. Still the jewish parentage thing has not enabled Chomsky to escape the label 'self-hating jew'

I never referred to him as such, but if it quacks like a duck, it's usually not a hamster.

3. Thumbing through my Shorter Oxford I note that there is no word for 'anti-Arabism'.

I don't see the relevance of this comment, but Arab advocacy groups effortlessly and constantly throw around the term "Islamophobia" (which almost always pertains to Arabs) as if Druids perpetrated 9/11, Madrid and 7/7.

4. Though Dickie unpardonably shredded the Constitution, he paid the price. I'd have reserved the public noose for Edward Heath.

Morgan097
09 August 2008 at 09:27

Nilsey,

As Dershowitz would often say to those with whom he fundamentally disagreed:

"You may be right."

raggedyman
09 August 2008 at 10:10

Morgy:

Thank God you're back - I thought for a minute you had gone off in high dudgeon.

re; Paulin

You have to admire his chutzpah don't you?

But as Paulin also said repeatedly thereafter:

[he] was a lifelong opponent of anti-semitism and did not support attacks on civilians in any circumstances

so some contextual aspects of his alleged statements appear to have been lost mysteriously - here is Tom at his polemical best:

Killed in the Crossfire

We're fed this inert

this lying phrase

like comfort food

as another little Palestinian boy

in trainers jeans and a white teeshirt

is gunned down by the Zionist SS

whose initials we should

- but we don't - dumb goys -

clock in that weasel word crossfire

Paulin clearly agrees with Sir Ronald Storrs, the first British Governor of Jerusalem,

'for England a 'little loyal Jewish Ulster' in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism'

Only its geostrategic value passed seamlessly to the US after WWII.

And here again Paulin's riposte:

The first answer is Beckett's

in another context - to "Mr Beckett

they say that you are English?"

he answered "au contraire"

- he didn't say "I am not dot dot"

which plays their game

- in this case the ones who play the a-s card -

of death threats hate mail talking tough

the usual cynical Goebbels stuff

so I say the same

and say that peace it must be talked

re Palestine and re Iraq

I would list the Palestinian victims of Israeli 'death squads' since 2002 but there is not enough yardage in these comment columns.

Could you point to some Chomsky 'quacking' just in the interests of an evidence-based discussion as opposed to smear and innuendo.

Very relevant since when did you last hear of criticism of Hamas being rebuffed with a charge of 'anti-Arabism'?

re:

Though Dickie unpardonably shredded the Constitution, he paid the price. I'd have reserved the public noose for Edward Heath.

You may be right.

Morgan097
09 August 2008 at 12:34

Jesus, raggy,

It's a weekend!

I know it can be entertaining to talk politics, but for me, it soon becomes an awful bore. That's why so many of my posts have indeed been of the Dada variety.

Whole libraries have been filled with works related to the Mideast conflict. Do you really believe that we could possibly reach consensus through a medium as ephemeral as this one?

We're talking core beliefs here.

You see the conflict as one between a handful of poor, oppressed, helpless, valiant, Palestinian Arabs and a vast, sadistic, omnipotent, neo-colonial, Western military juggernaut.

I see 23 Arab military dictatorships or feudal monarchies with massive oil revenues and 1.2 billion citizens versus one tiny, highly-advanced, Jewish democracy, with a proportionally huge Arab minority, forced to support a powerful military, knowing that its first defeat will be its last.

Britain, of course, was only granted its League mandate with the express understanding that it was to oversee the creation of a Jewish state. Just before that mandate came into effect, and in direct contravention to the intent of that mandate, it generously turned over 79% of Palestine to its non-indigenous Hashemite stooges, with the unconscionable provision that no Jews be allowed citizenship.

To remove it from any future distributive equation, this huge portion of the Palestine Mandate miraculously became transformed into first, "Transjordan," then simply "Jordan."

Now, of course, the overwhelming majority of its citizens are of Palestinian Arab extraction, making Jordan effectively a Palestinian state, but still we hear the interminably lugubrious lament of the "plight"(TM) of the Palestinians. Never the fate of the 800,000 to 1.1 million Jews forcibly expelled from their Arab homelands.

With regard to Chomsky, there are entire volumes devoted to his distortions, inaccuracies and plain fabrications. If I ever have the time or inclination to gather this little pr**k's rap sheet, I'll gladly discuss it with you.

And I liked your last line.

raggedyman
09 August 2008 at 14:18

Perhaps the epitaph apropos of Chomsky's tombstone should read: 'ever traduced, rarely adduced'?

In truth I try not to be undone by the flawed 'good guy/bad guy' approach to history but if the British have a weakness it is in a tendency always to support the underdog.

Most of the Arab military dictatorships you mention are western stooges busy shafting the Palestinians along with the Israeli Zionists.

Your account of the Palestine Mandate is pure revisionism:

'Transjordan was not excised but, on the contrary, added to the mandatory area. Zionism was barred from seeking to expand there - but the Balfour Declaration had never previously applied to the area east of the Jordan. Why is this important? Because the myth of Palestine's 'first partition' has become part of the concept of 'Greater Israel' and of the ideology of Jabotinsky's Revisionist movement.'

If I ever have the time or inclination to gather this little pr**k's rap sheet....

I take it that we won't be discussing it.

niceguy
09 August 2008 at 14:22

I would like you to explain such a logical arguement to the Palestinian refugees in Jordan. Perhaps the millions of Palestinians would throw away the keys they still keep for their homes they left to the Israeli invaders. And ignore the thousands of other Palestinians left in the West Bank and Gaza refugee camps with one the lowest standards of living in the world.

And to remind you, the majority of the Palestinians didn't flee to oil-rich nations, but desert states with little or no oil. Palestinians in Jordan have been successful in certain businesses, despite the dire situations they faced. But I guess there is nowhere quite like home Morgan, and who can blame them.

"Now, of course, the overwhelming majority of its citizens are of Palestinian Arab extraction, making Jordan effectively a Palestinian state"

Now we all know the PLO tried to establish a Palestinian state in Jordan in 1970, which was bloodily supressed, with a little help from your Israeli friends.

Morgan097
09 August 2008 at 15:14

raggy,

Kindly provide a citation for:

'Transjordan was not excised but, on the contrary, added to the mandatory area. Zionism was barred from seeking to expand there - but the Balfour Declaration had never previously applied to the area east of the Jordan. Why is this important? Because the myth of Palestine's 'first partition' has become part of the concept of 'Greater Israel' and of the ideology of Jabotinsky's Revisionist movement.'

niceguy,

I sincerely hope that I haven't in any way complicated your relationship with the locals. Your absence from this forum had led me to believe that you'd become preoccupied with more immediate matters. Prudence and common sense dictate that further discussion of this subject be postponed to some later date.

Hope you're enjoying the new job.

niceguy
09 August 2008 at 15:27

Thanks Morgan, the job is going well, getting a lot of free perks, but thankfully not from Israeli arms companies.

Morgan, I might be going native.

Morgan097
09 August 2008 at 15:30

Enormously pleased to hear that you're enjoying the new environment.

May you live long and prosper!

Morgan097
09 August 2008 at 19:39

raggy,

If you don't mind, I'd prefer to change the subject.

raggedyman
09 August 2008 at 19:58

Morg

Sorry matey I was emptying out my slug traps.

Imperial gerrymandering aside would you not agree that the Zionist project was well under way by the end of the nineteenth century? And that Jewish ethnic dominion and preponderance within the Palestine has been heavily dependent upon an aggressive program of immigration particularly energetic in recent decades?

And that the project from the outset met with a vociferous body of Jewish opposition who were fearful of the consequences for the already peacefully co-existing Jewish and Arab communities of the region? Not to mention Jewish-Arab relations in general.

Could we not at least agree upon that? Eh?

raggedyman
09 August 2008 at 20:03

Oh alright.

How about Quantum mechanics?

I was thinking in particular of the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox.

Morgan097
09 August 2008 at 21:23

How about IIIg Leicas, DWM Lugers, Patek Calatravas, Pelikan 100N Toledos, Ferrari 250GT SWB Californias, Mercedes 300SL Roadsters, BMW 507s, Aston DB4GTZs, and last but not least, the notorious, elusive, expensive "Morgan Types" (MTs) [long-haired, blue- or hazel-eyed, sophisticated but certifiable, brunettes]?

raggedyman
09 August 2008 at 21:57

Er...

How about a three-speed Raleigh Roadster?

Morgan097
09 August 2008 at 23:10

Sounds good to me!

raggedyman
10 August 2008 at 00:28

'ere Morgy:

Do you think all this Enlightenment stuff is bunkum?

Are we on parallel tracks? Never the twain shall meet?

Is reason really king?

We could talk and talk but still be poles apart.

Core beliefs? Are these reason-based? Or preconceptions or prejudices or articles of faith?

Is reason just a dissimulation or a layer of deception - perhaps even self-deception? Is the hubris of Reason the chief evil?

Why can't we agree? We're both educated, rational, intelligent, potentially in possession of the 'facts' - surely it is possible for us to reach a consensus. Or, if not, why not? What essentially divides us? Reason or faith?

Why one man holds an opinion and not another - it is a mystery.

But then if we're not the rational, utility-maximising agents that the classicism of the Enlightenment suggests then what are we?

And, above all, do we have hope?

Morgan097
10 August 2008 at 07:16

Hey!

Watch yer language, toff!

"Educated, rational, intelligent, potentially in possession of the 'facts...'"

Ya off yer rocker'?

Wasted two eff'n years in some snotty philosophy classr'm, an' still can't tell ya 'ow many bloody angels c'n dance on th' 'ead of a pin!

Ah'm a Las Vegas rickshaw driver, an' proud uv it!

Morgan097
10 August 2008 at 07:36

And not only don't we have Hope; we no longer have Crosby, either.

raggedyman
10 August 2008 at 09:16

Stuff this for a lark; I'm going to tend my vegetables.

Morgan097
10 August 2008 at 10:05

raggy,

"Stuff this for a lark"?

Aussies appropriated that (and everything else they could lay their handcuffed little hands on) from the Aborigines, didn't they?

A more apropos Morgie expression might've been:

"Go fly a (selective) plight!"

raggedyman
10 August 2008 at 11:48

Morgy you are indefatigable.

Have you polished your guns today or fed the dog his protein supplement?

Lark is from skylark - a bird familiar to country folk for its frenetic flight and frantic song hence its colloquial usage to mean frolic or spree(1811).

Morgan097
10 August 2008 at 13:41

C'mon, raggy,

Permit me a teensy-weensy bit of dramatic license.

Besides, I was kinda proud of "Go fly a plight."

What kind of veggies?

Morgan097
10 August 2008 at 13:48

1. Rommel won't trust me near his guns.

2. I have a badger, not a dog!

raggedyman
10 August 2008 at 19:27

The truth is we are all caught in a great economic system which is heartless.

I wonder if you can guess which firebrand radical said that?

Morgan097
11 August 2008 at 06:25

raggy,

Wilson was a racist former president of Princeton before he became a racist POTUS whose (belatedly) internationalist foreign policy was what finally sent Kaiser Bill into long-deserved retirement, but his quixotic naivete lost out to (probably understandable) Clemenceaunian realpolitic at Versailles, and sowed the seeds for Adolf Hamster and multiple other future geopolitical disasters.

The failed successor to his cherished League is just as likely to deter Putin today as its predecessor was to prevent WWII.

Incidentally, what say you about Russia's latest adventure?

raggedyman
11 August 2008 at 09:54

Well I wouldn't entirely disagree with your appraisal of Wilson, except....

july 25th 1922

To New York journalist Louis Lipsky, chairman of the executive committee of the Zionist Organization of America, Wilson writes: "Thank you warmly for your telegram.I am proud that it should be thought that I have been of service to the Jewish people." The telegram noted that they remember with gratitude Wilson's "distinguished and unselfish cooperation in behalf of the Zionist cause."

Wilson seemed much influenced by Brandeis & Baruch: why, we can only speculate upon.

Although the Treaty of Versailles undoubtedly laid the foundation for the rise of Nazism in Germany the true catalyst for propelling Hitler's politically marginal NS party to power was the Great Depression of the 1930s precipitated by the Wall Street Crash of 1929. Hell in the darkest moments of the 1930s depression, and its corollary of massive social unrest, even US generals were plotting a coup in favour of dictatorship - FDR was walking a tightrope. Dictatorship was suddenly coming into fashion in the unlikeliest of places.

Don't forget it was the US congress/senate that pulled the plug on the league bub.

The Russians post-Soviet era went through a nationally very humiliating time in the 1990s in which much of their traditional spheres of influence were being prised away by a combination of their economic weakness and by a reinvigorated US expansionism tinged not a little with triumphalism. See Fukiyama's daftly titled book.

It won't be the first time that the US have encouraged a group with unrealistic expectations of US support to act aggressively only to dump them right quick when it suited - the Kurds have an interesting history in this regard.

Was it ever that wise to be plonking Nato allies on Russia's doorstep? The US after all were just as jittery with the reverse going on in their own 'backyard'.

The pull out of 2000 Georgian troops from Iraq is hardly welcome news for the stretched US forces on a very tense Iranian border.

But with the prospects of energy pipelines now going mostly north to Russia and the prospects of a pipeline going west to the med looking bleaker than ever the real significance of Georgia may be in the focus it brings upon Iran. Increasingly America's 'synergy' eggs, and to some extent also western Europe's, are all in one basket - that of Iran and its truculently anti-western President.

These are indeed interesting times.

raggedyman
11 August 2008 at 10:22

I forgot to add;

I agree here with Wilson's statement however which was the point of my quotation.

Not long before Wilson's tenure in the Whitehouse scandal erupted over revelations concerning Leopold's Congo. Casement, the British diplomat most credited with uncovering the full horror of this early phase of rubber production, subsequently went on to uncover similar horrors being perpetrated in the Amazonian jungle. Early rubber was extracted from widely dispersed wild rubber trees and the only economically viable method of production was through the forced subjugation of the indigenous people. Conrad's Heart of Darkness was mis-titled - it should have been heart of hollowness. Hollow men.. It is an amoral process benign where it has no need not to be.

In similar fashion modern potentates regard the dispensability of thousands of people in the pursuit of national interests and economic advantage.

Mad Allbright, for example, who thought that 250,000 Iraqi children was a price worth paying or the Russian demolition of Chechnya, and so on , and so on.

Oddly enough:

When I typed 'whitehouse' my spell-check complained and offered as an alternative 'whorehouse'. Interesting.

Morgan097
11 August 2008 at 17:45

Persistent little devil, aren't you, raggy.

"july 25th 1922

To New York journalist Louis Lipsky, chairman of the executive committee of the Zionist Organization of America, Wilson writes: 'Thank you warmly for your telegram.I am proud that it should be thought that I have been of service to the Jewish people." The telegram noted that they remember with gratitude Wilson's "distinguished and unselfish cooperation in behalf of the Zionist cause.'"

1. After Wilson's Oct. 2nd 1919 stroke, Edith Galt Wilson became America's first de facto woman president. Wilson was incapacitated until his death in 1924. Thus Mrs. Wilson, not her husband, certainly sent this message. Presumably, every successful post-Versailles advocacy group, including those supporting the creation of the new Arab states, expressed similar gratitude to Wilson.

"Wilson seemed much influenced by Brandeis & Baruch: why, we can only speculate upon."

Are you perhaps suggesting the existence of some sinister, shadowy World Jewish Conspiracy?

"...even US generals were plotting a coup in favour of dictatorship."

The US isn't Venezuela, though you might prefer it otherwise. The great retired marine war hero Smedley Butler reported the conspirators when they approached him for leadership.

"Don't forget it was the US congress/senate that pulled the plug on the league bub."

Had Wilson foreseen what its disastrous successor would become despite American participation, he'd have been the first to "pull the plug."

"The Russians post-Soviet era went through a nationally very humiliating time in the 1990s in which much of their traditional spheres of influence were being prised away by a combination of their economic weakness and by a reinvigorated US expansionism tinged not a little with triumphalism."

I agree, but the Russians have been up to their KGB-led necks in supporting every despotic enemy of the US that they could find, Iran, Syria and Venezuela being only the most obvious examples.

"See Fukiyama's daftly titled book."

Of course, he's daffy; he's no longer a neocon.

"It won't be the first time that the US have encouraged a group with unrealistic expectations of US support to act aggressively only to dump them right quick when it suited - the Kurds have an interesting history in this regard."

Entirely in agreement. From the Hungarian Revolution, to the Kurds, to the Iraqi Shiites after the first Gulf War the US record has been shameful. The latter abandonment was a strong reason why the neocons abandoned Bush 41.

"Was it ever that wise to be plonking Nato allies on Russia's doorstep? The US after all were just as jittery with the reverse going on in their own 'backyard'."

It sure was for the countries seeking Nato membership. No Nato member has ever been invaded, except for the Falkland War. Had Georgia already been a member, Russian aggression would probably have been deterred.

"The pull out of 2000 Georgian troops from Iraq is hardly welcome news for the stretched US forces on a very tense Iranian border."

I'm optimistic that the US military will somehow survive.

"Mad Allbright, for example, who thought that 250,000 Iraqi children was a price worth paying or the Russian demolition of Chechnya, and so on , and so on."

Although I cringed at the Albright ineffectiveness, your figure of 250,000 Iraqi children is pure propaganda.

I agree about Chechnya, however.

"When I typed 'whitehouse' my spell-check complained and offered as an alternative 'whorehouse'. Interesting."

You just prefer Stalin' s cozy dacha, don't you?

raggedyman
11 August 2008 at 21:30

Persistent little devil, aren't you, raggy.

Please pay attention to punctuation, Morgy; I'm a stickler when it comes to matters of grammar.

Re; Wilson

If it quacks like a duck....

The US isn't Venezuela,

Well no the US has a judicially appointed president whereas Venezuela has a democratically elected one.

The great retired marine war hero Smedley Butler reported the conspirators when they approached him for leadership.

You seemed to have evaded the main thrust of my argument - that the Wall Street Crash became the main precursor of the drift to dictatorship in Germany. Although it did not result in a dictatorship in the US it came close and it certainly marked a shift away from neoliberalist economic doctrine. An interesting point given the current crisis of the American economy.

There is no basis for believing the Russians would have re-invaded any of their former Soviet satellite countries. Surely US wooing of the former Soviet countries and its plans to install a new missile defence system are highly provocative actions. So perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised by the Russian response in Georgia. Or that we may be entering a new Cold War and arms race. Just what we f**king need right now.

your figure of 250,000 Iraqi children is pure propaganda.

It's the figure Allbright accepted - I happen to think the figure is certainly higher.

You just prefer Stalin' s cozy dacha, don't you?

You mean the choice is between the Whitehouse or Stalin? What a bummer.

Morgan097
12 August 2008 at 00:41

You're crossing the line, raggy.

M: Are you perhaps suggesting the existence of some sinister, shadowy World Jewish Conspiracy?

R: If it quacks like a duck....

M: raggy, if you're not an anti-Semite, then God didn't make little apples called "crabs."

M: The US isn't Venezuela,

R: Well no the US has a judicially appointed president whereas Venezuela has a democratically elected one.

(Is the comma no longer considered a part of grammar?)

M: Slepped through the 2004 election, did we?

Chavez's military coup failed, so a fearful peasantry rewarded him, just as a bankrupt German middle class did Hitler.

R: You seemed to have evaded the main thrust of my argument - that the Wall Street Crash became the main precursor of the drift to dictatorship in Germany.

M: And you'd have preferred a 5-year plan dependent upon a gulag?

R: Although it did not result in a dictatorship in the US it came close

M: Utter nonsense! Substantiate, please.

R: it certainly marked a shift away from neoliberalist economic doctrine. An interesting point given the current crisis of the American economy.

M: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." -- Emerson

R: There is no basis for believing the Russians would have re-invaded any of their former Soviet satellite countries.

M: Read today's paper.

R: Surely US wooing of the former Soviet countries and its plans to install a new missile defence system are highly provocative actions. So perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised by the Russian response in Georgia.

M: If Russia hadn't provided the mad mullahs with a nuclear reactor and the most advanced defense equipment in the Russian arsenal, a missile defense system would have been unnecessary.

M: Your figure of 250,000 Iraqi children is pure propaganda.

R: It's the figure Allbright accepted - I happen to think the figure is certainly higher.

M: Well, your unbiased estimate is certainly one we can take to the bank.

R: You mean the choice is between the Whitehouse or Stalin? What a bummer.

M: I suppose you can still opt for the outhouse.

raggedyman
12 August 2008 at 02:24

a missile defense system would have been unnecessary.

Ya, but sited in Europe??

And didn't the US provide the rabid Rabbis with their nukes?

Read today's paper..

circulus in probando

Well, your unbiased estimate is certainly one we can take to the bank

do you really give a sh*t what anybody's estimate is in this regard?

Old Waldo didn't get around to defining a wise consistency though did he?

if you're not an anti-Semite.....

As an agnostic I require evidence for any God-like activity especially as I have a crab-apple tree growing on my plot.

Chavez's military coup failed, so a fearful peasantry rewarded him, just as a bankrupt German middle class did Hitler.

Very revealing. As a neocon I take it you view democracy in Straussian terms.

Incidentally given the casual bantering nature of these exchanges how can you possibly nit-pick over a chap's punctuation - it seems preposterously petty old boy.

And its great to be uncloseted at last as an anti-Semite - did you like the rabid Rabbi bit? Good, eh?

Morgan097
12 August 2008 at 08:50

raggy,

Your Wilson joke would have forever labeled you a little nazi at any serious discussion group in the US.

M: a missile defense system would have been unnecessary.

R: Ya, but sited in Europe??

M: It's America's European allies who'd be within range, not Pearl Harbor.

R: And didn't the US provide the rabid Rabbis with their nukes?

M: Actually, you have it backward: Jewish physicists provided the US with its nukes.

R: As a neocon I take it you view democracy in Straussian terms.

M: Absolutely! I've listened to Solti's interpretation of Rosenkavalier at least 100 times.

R: Incidentally given the casual bantering nature of these exchanges how can you possibly nit-pick over a chap's punctuation - it seems preposterously petty old boy.

M: I said Dada, not gaga.

"Please pay attention to punctuation, Morgy; I'm a stickler when it comes to matters of grammar."

[R post, 21:30]

R: did you like the rabid Rabbi bit? Good, eh?

M: I'd love it if only it were accurate, but as you well know, Khamenei and the other religious fanatics rule Iran; the Knesset, led by very practical secular moderates, governs Israel.

raggedyman
12 August 2008 at 10:05

Morg:

Slepped? Consider:

In the morning, after he had slept his wine off, he was very gay

Its bad enough to have to cope with perverse punctuation but this is spelling on a par with the Tudors.

Wilson may have been physically incapacitated by his stroke; his mental capacity on the other hand was much caricatured by a generally very hostile press.

His almost divine self-righteousness got up the hooters of the 'triumphant' European powers whilst his idealism and internationalism was received with ridicule domestically. Already upon his return from Versailles he had fatally misjudged the mood of his fellow countrymen who even in 1919 were in the grip of a paranoia about the spread of evil and noxious foreign diseases such as Bolshevism.

Despite valiant efforts by the Democrats to repair the damage the Republican bosses' chosen candidate, Warren Harding, makes it into the Presidency in 1921.

What is it about the Republicans that they always manage to pick a complete bozo for president?

Whilst Harding makes soothing speeches a cabal of crooks rifle the public treasury making his short stint in office one of the most corrupt in US history. Is the Republican Party really just a front for a class of super-criminals whose main aim is to extract money out of the pockets of the long-suffering American tax-payer?

...labeled you a little nazi at any serious discussion group in the US.

I am pleasantly surprised to hear you say that - I wasn't aware such groups existed.

It's America's European allies who'd be within range

Thank God for American altruism, eh? The European Union were rather less enamoured of the idea just stopping short of excommunicating Poland. The EU has got the funny idea that it might lead to worsening relations with Russia and the emergence of a new arms race.

You seem to conflate Jewish and Israeli. The German-American physicists that enabled the US to become the first nuclear power and the first power to use nuclear weapons were emigres of Germany who happened, not coincidentally, to be Jewish. Obviously at the time the Israelis could not have provided the US with nukes - its not I that has it 'backward' but you that has it inside out or, is it, upside down?

Re; punctuation

British humour - you'll get used to it eventually.

'Mad mullahs', 'religious fanatics', 'secular', 'practical', 'moderate' - it's those darned 'core beliefs' again.

Morgan097
12 August 2008 at 11:37

raggy,

R: Wilson may have been physically incapacitated by his stroke; his mental capacity on the other hand was much caricatured by a generally very hostile press.

M: Yes, raggy. His mental condition was indeed "much caricatured by a generally very hostile [Republican] press." But no, raggy. Mrs. Wilson was indeed running the country after her husband's massive stroke. Wilson may have been physically incapacitated by his stroke; his mental capacity on the other hand was much caricatured by a generally very hostile press.

R: What is it about the Republicans that they always manage to pick a complete bozo for president?

M: As I keep telling you, neocons were (moderate) Democrats until McGovern was nominated in '72, but are you aware that Lincoln, TR and Reagan were Republicans?

R: ...labeled you a little nazi at any serious discussion group in the US. I am pleasantly surprised to hear you say that - I wasn't aware such groups existed.

M: After reading the usually idiotic Marxist claptrap that passes for discussion on this very forum, I've concluded that serious discussion groups exist ONLY in the US.

R: Thank God for American altruism, eh? The European Union were rather less enamoured of the idea just stopping short of excommunicating Poland. The EU has got the funny idea that it might lead to worsening relations with Russia and the emergence of a new arms race.

M: The Europeans weren't quite so particular when the Marshall Plan saved them from mass starvation or when the US nuclear umbrella protected them from Uncle Joe's army of rapists.

R: You seem to conflate Jewish and Israeli.

M: That's odd. I could have sworn that it was you who conflated American Jews with Israelis, as in Baruch and Brandeis.

Hang in there, raggy, your green card is probably already in the mail.

raggedyman
12 August 2008 at 18:31

Well thanks for the ding-dong Morg - you made a number of useful and at times trenchant comments which I have taken on board.

Still think you're a bit wobbly in the 'core beliefs' dept. but I imagine you reciprocate there and with interest.

I shouldn't worry about the green card as Mr Blair has kindly arranged it for us to spend long vacations in your country, at your country's request, without the need for any of that troublesome paperwork and in complete circumvention of our Habeas Corpus. Good innit?

What with this and Mr Blair's former criminal antics in Iraq there are some among us who now suspect he is the very essence of gittishness.

Too late the realisation comes, eh?

And by the way I hope you realise that Badgers are nocturnal animals. As you seem to be come to think of it.

Morgan097
12 August 2008 at 20:14

You're a good man, raggy, and I can see that you've done some tough intellectual groundwork. If my criticisms sometimes seem unnecessarily harsh, it's because I'd prefer you to learn vicariously from my horrendous mistakes rather than have to experience them yourself.

raggedyman
12 August 2008 at 20:40

I seem to be suffering from mild indigestion.

Morgan097
13 August 2008 at 11:02

raggy,

You put the lime in the coconut...

raggedyman
13 August 2008 at 20:41

Some consider it to be a flaw in my character but since childhood I have always insisted on having the last word in any conversation. So if it is all the same to you, and we are square, I would dearly, dearly, like to be the last entry in this thread. Ok?

Cheers.

God bless.