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52 comments from readers

redharry
18 July 2008 at 14:11

Bright praises yet another nasty right-winger.

Blears says, 'the Government would not do business with any groups who weren’t serious about standing up to violence'

And I suppose invading Iraq didn't invole any violence?

From the Guardian

1. Do you regret your support for the Iraq war in the Commons vote in March 2003?

Hazel Blears

Labour party chair

'No, I don't. Removing Saddam Hussein from power was essential for the peace of the region, for the protection of the Iraqi people, and for our own security.'

Funny how WMDs don't get a mention.

Who have been responsible for more deaths, Islamists or this Labour Government? Funny how Bright finds warmongers like BICOM, Blears, Clarke and Byrne acceptable company - but shuns Islamists.

Serosch
18 July 2008 at 14:25

How a left-wing publication like the NS can continue to employ a right-wing zionist nutcase like Bright is beyond me.

knave
18 July 2008 at 16:05

Martin is there anything else you write about apart from bloody islam. Every other thread is dominated by the issue.

There are many other issues and parts of the world that might be interesting to discuss.

Take a break from the topic or do you have a financial eaon for the obsession.

Morgan097
18 July 2008 at 20:43

knave,

I agree that it's probably time to change the subject.

I propose that we discuss the recognition of May 29 as the British dhimmi national holiday!

If Bevan could so sensitively suggest that the Jews could wait another 2000 years to regain their own state, isn't 555 years time enough for Mahmoud's children to commemorate the liberation of Constantinople while preparing its encore in Londonistan?

dyna
18 July 2008 at 22:13

islamexpo was a tremendous success, i don;t care who the directors are, they organised nothing! i know the ordinary hardworking young people who worked so hard to put together this wonderful exhibition, and martin, shame on you for trying to undo all their hardwork! get over your high horse, at the end of the day it was the very muslims that the government epitomise to engage with that made this event the success it was, politics sholitics, islam expo was alot more!

Morgan097
18 July 2008 at 22:15

But why should Islamists have all the fun?

Let's make May 29 a true ecumenical event!

British Christians not yet put to the saif or bowing to Mecca can call the celebration: The Real Nakba Day.

Morgan097
18 July 2008 at 22:23

dyna:

And let's not forget the efforts all those fine industrious young Hitler Jugend who did so much to make that last Nuremberg rally such a rousing success!

knave
18 July 2008 at 22:38

Morgan

I know you fancy yourself as the Nevadan Raynald of Châtillon but the rest of us get a little bored by your and Martin's, (your owner), obsession with Islam.

Also will you remind you that US history has it's fair share of genocide, anti semites and bigots.

Yes and before you say it , so as the UK.

Morgan097
18 July 2008 at 22:47

knave,

I am no one's property.

I am a free man!

And the threat to your own liberty exists neither in the misty past nor the distant future.

It exists today.

knave
18 July 2008 at 22:53

Martin

I also feel that the "Islam issue" is now becoming a small cottage industry. With think tanks and journalists on either side making a good living on the issue.

For instance they wouldn't you have you on Sky for any other issue.

Sorry there is another issue.

Murdoch likes you to slag off Brown.

knave
18 July 2008 at 22:57

I am no one's property.

I am a free man!

And the threat to your own liberty exists neither in the misty past nor the distant future.

It exists today

This is paranoia Morgan and this is why I dislike the cottage industry of hate created by the likes of Bright, Cohen and others.

Morgan097
19 July 2008 at 02:19

knave,

The "cottage industry of hate,' as you so glibly put it, was created not by "the likes of Bright, Cohen and others," but by the Nazis and their (Palestinian) Arab allies.

The Muslims, of course, had their own SS division, famously blessed by "oppressed" Palestinian Arab #1, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al Husseini, who when not broadcasting on Radio Berlin calling for the extermination of the Jews, joined his friend Himmler on guided tours of the death camps.

Even before the war, of course, the British Secret Service promoted its own vile anti-Semitic propaganda among the Arabs to forge a common solidarity.

Just as the Manhattan Project was undertaken to counter Heisenberg and Co. from developing the bomb first, "the likes of Bright, Cohen and others" are doing their pitifully small part to postpone the demographic day of reckoning you so blindly refuse to perceive.

And never link my advocacy for a policy of American-led global democratization to the unspeakable history of your crusader antecedents.

knave
19 July 2008 at 09:07

Morgan

US Nazi links were more important to the Reich than a few muslims fighting for the jerries.

The "cottage industry of hate,' as you so glibly put it, was created not by "the likes of Bright, Cohen and others," but by the Nazis and their (Palestinian) Arab allies.

Nazi allies for palestinians.

Yes a few did but so did many US, UK and even Jewish supporters.

The Muslims, of course, had their own SS division, famously blessed by "oppressed" Palestinian Arab #1, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al Husseini, who when not broadcasting on Radio Berlin calling for the extermination of the Jews, joined his friend Himmler on guided tours of the death camps.

Probably visited with Henry Ford and CEO of General Motors

Even before the war, of course, the British Secret Service promoted its own vile anti-Semitic propaganda among the Arabs to forge a common solidarity.

Didn't Orde Wingate fight for the Jews

Just as the Manhattan Project was undertaken to counter Heisenberg and Co. from developing the bomb first, "the likes of Bright, Cohen and others" are doing their pitifully small part to postpone the demographic day of reckoning you so blindly refuse to perceive.

Now you are losing the plot.

The idea that the muslims are going to take over the world. Is just barking.

The strange thing is that many young muslims are joining these sects because it is the forbidden fruit.

Likde hippies and punk rockers, they think it there way of stiking one to the establishment. The real irony is that if we ignored the sects, they would disapear.

Also if the Muslim world is the real danger. Why does your country and president have very strong links with the most fundamentalist state. Saudi Arabia

And never link my advocacy for a policy of American-led global democratization to the unspeakable history of your crusader antecedents.

American led global Democratization = Rapture led, oil grabbing warmongers whose only aim is to impose "friendly and corrupt" governments that will arrest trades unionists and allow ameriacn multi nationals to take all the resources and money.

I think that sounds like the Crusaders

knave
19 July 2008 at 09:24

Adolf with his Jewish friend, Emile Maurice, in prison. Emile founded the Nazi-SS and became SS member 2. Adolf was member 1.

Yitzak Shamir, (Israeli Prime Minister). Former deputy leader of the NMO, (Israeli Freedom Movement) that offered to join the war on the Nazi side.

Gertrude Stein, Jewish Nobel Laureate Novelist, nominated Adolf for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Avraham Stern. Leader of the NMO, (Israeli Freedom Movement) that offered to join the war on the Nazi side.

founded the Nazi-SS and became SS member 2. Adolf was member 1.

Sad to say there were Jews whose own history with Nazis was pretty shameful.

knave
19 July 2008 at 09:30

Also mnot forgetting the hideous

Arthur Pisk. - , a German jew was head of the Ordnungsdienst.(OD) in charge of

Westerbork concentration camp. All of the OD Westerbork camp officials under Pisk are also Jews.

Morgan097
19 July 2008 at 09:40

"Like hippies and punk rockers, th ey ["many young muslims"] think it their way of striking one to the establishment. The real irony is that if we ignored the sects, they would disappear." [grammatical corrections mine]

You've convinced yourself.

Now, if you can only convince the dead innocents of 9/11, 7/7 and Madrid.

And Wingate, of course, was removed from Palestine by his embarrassed British masters in 1939, before he could further damage their sweetheart relationship with the loathsome al Husseini.

knave
19 July 2008 at 09:52

and the dead innocents from Isreali, US and UK cluster bombs and phosphorus shells in Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Iraq.

We have killed far more innocents than they have.

As I said before when it comes to history.

We are all have shameful pasts.

I am more worried about the fastest growing religion in the UK. US based fundamentalism. Guess what they don't like gays and support barking theories such as the rapture and creationism.

They seem pretty similar to the Muslim loonies.

Morgan097
19 July 2008 at 10:09

As you well know, virtually every instance of Jewish wartime collaboration with the Nazis occurred with the knowledge that refusal to cooperate would mean certain death for themselves, their wives and children.

There were, of course, no showers prepared for the children of Hitler's mainstream Palestinian Arab nationalist accomplices.

Certain individual Jews unaffiliated with mainstream Zionism did anything and everything they could to rid Palestine of its British parasites, defeat the inevitable consequences of the genocidal White Paper and save an estimated 750,000 to 1.5 million Jews from the ovens.

The blood of those who could so easily have been saved will forever stain the memory of the craven British government that condemned them to their fate.

Morgan097
19 July 2008 at 10:19

Then if I were you, I'd avoid transatlantic flights carrying fundamentalist Christians at all costs.

Welcome to Air Atta!

knave
19 July 2008 at 10:36

"As you well know, virtually every instance of Jewish wartime collaboration with the Nazis occurred with the knowledge that refusal to cooperate would mean certain death for themselves, their wives and children".

The above Jews were party members, such as Pisk and Emile maurice and their families were never in danger, as for shamir, stern and Stein all their relatives either lived in palestine or the US.

They were busy planning terrorist attacks on the same soldiers who liberated Belsen and other camps. Which had parts of their gas chambers made by US companies.

No heroes Morgan

Then if I were you, I'd avoid transatlantic flights carrying fundamentalist Christians at all costs

Far more insiduous than that.

You have president who belives in the same loony theories as the Muslim fundamentalists

knave
19 July 2008 at 10:39

Sorry not Stein , she was too busy sucking up to Hitler.

Morgan097
19 July 2008 at 11:10

Your inference that Jews living ouside Europe were immune to the consequences of Nazi extermination is so naive as to be patently absurd.

Virtually every Jew living outside Europe had parents, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins and nephews murdered by the Nazis and their willing accomplices.

knave
19 July 2008 at 11:17

Morgan if you think Pisk, Maurice, Shamir or Stern who VOLUNTEERED for the Nazis beacuse of danger to their mythical relatives then you are very niave or drunk.

Pisk and the his OD jews particularly enjoyed their work at westerbrook. That evidence for that didn't come from anti zionists but came from fellow Jews.

Morgan097
19 July 2008 at 11:20

And Gertrude Stein could be crazier than the proverbial bedbug. She also compared Petain to George Washington and developed a theory that Lincoln was Jewish.

Her lesbianism and eccentricity also alienated her from the larger Jewish community.

Morgan097
19 July 2008 at 11:41

Jews who aided the Nazis were few and far between.

The acknowledged leader of the Palestinian Arab nationalists, al Husseini, actively advised the Nazis on how best to implement the Final Solution.

The minuscule number of Jews you cite were either those determined to save their threatened co-religionists at almost any price, those divorced from reality, or simply the fearful or corrupt trying to survive.

There've been some very odd Englishmen, Scots, Welshmen and Irishmen as well.

Naturally, I can't think of a single American to fit that category.

Morgan097
19 July 2008 at 12:33

The entire families of Yitzhak Shamir and Avraham Stern still living in Poland died in the Holocaust.

And obviously, those same Tommies who liberated Belsen would still have been crouching behind the White Cliffs were it not for the massive US invasion force.

But let's give an especially hearty show of gratitude to the brave British police who on Feb. 12, 1942 shot from behind an already handcuffed Avraham Stern in his Tel Aviv apartment.

knave
19 July 2008 at 13:16

So shamir and stern voluntered to fight for the Nazis because of their relatives . I think not. They were murdering terrorists whose tactics were copied every other murdering organisation since the war.

"Jews who aided the Nazis were few and far between."

More than you think but no different from any other race or country.

The trouble with you Morgan and the Bright's and Cohens.

Is everything is black and white.

Good guys on one side and bad guys on the other. The truth is that history is always written by the winners and the truth is grey and there are many anomolies.

Your country's history, like mine and like every other country is littered with unsavoury characters and some good characters. To just label all peoples of one race or political persuasion as either good or bad is barking.

The acknowledged leader of the Palestinian Arab nationalists, al Husseini, actively advised the Nazis on how best to implement the Final Solution.

So what, he is one unsavoury palestinian. There wre many US, UK and even Jewish unsavoury characters who supported Hitler. The lovely Daily Mail ran a headline "Hurrah for Mr Hitler" and their wonderful journalists wore black shirts. Also I have given the video link, to the help that US industry gave to Hitler before and during the war.

There've been some very odd Englishmen, Scots, Welshmen and Irishmen as well. .

No odd ball Americans.

Custer, soldiers at wounded knee, Captain Calley, Ford, the KKK, southerners who use lynch blacks if they looked at their women folk. Christ the list could go on.

But saying that there are thousands of yanks who I adore such as Johnny cash, bruce the boss, Matt groenig, oppenheimer, truman, and rooservelt

And obviously, those same Tommies who liberated Belsen would still have been crouching behind the White Cliffs were it not for the massive US invasion force.

I have met some of those men who fougt at Arnhem. You can belittle them with your neo con friends . I won't

Also good on the British police who shot a pro Nazi terrorist

FA
19 July 2008 at 17:03

Morgan097 - you have put up a deeply malevolent, disingenouous and frankly bigoted post. "The Muslims" didn't participate in the Holocaust - a group of Bosnian Muslims in the Balkans fought with Germany and hence participated in the Holocaust. The Mufti of Jerusalem also became a stooge of the Nazis - but he was one senior cleric amongst hundreds and he was unelected - he cannot be considered to represent either Muslims or even Palestinians. What you have posted is a vile piece of propaganda who's purpose is to suggest that "Muslims" were in part responsible fo rthe Holocaust and therefore forfeited their right to certain land - land which the victims of the Holocaust had a right to. Nice. If you want to advocate moving (i.e. ethnically cleansing) groups of people for the servcie of some greater good you believe in, go ahead and argue for it - but base your argument on the facts.

Your claim that Jews outside Europe all knew people/were related to people who were victims of the Holocaust is also made up. I know some Middle Eastern jews who didn't know anyone Jewish in Europe. No-one.

"Muslims" generally weren't involved in the Holocaust (which occurred entirely in Central and Eastern Europe) - considering that the vast majority of Muslims in the world during World War II were illiterate, it is quite likely that most of them didn't even know it was going on, much less support it or have anything to do with it.

As for the Zionist militants in 1930s and 1940s Mandate Palestine - they quite obviously were terrorists. You might agree with their cause and even their methods, but that doesnt stop them being terrorists. The only reason Zionists have such a hard time with this brutal truth is that their enemies amongst the Palestinians today are nationalist terrorists, just as Israeli's founders were.

As for Stern, he was, not only clealry a terrorist and quite a vile one, but also a total abject nutjob. It says quite a lot about the state of Israel that Stern and other such terrorists are considered heroes and politicians attend their graves and anniversaries like shrines. Reminds me of Gandhi's response to a call for independence through violence - he agreed they could win independence that way but questioned what sort of nation that would make them and what sort of leaders such methods would throw up.

knave
21 July 2008 at 08:44

This will be interesting

After a very interesting post from FA.

Which way will Morgan go ?

1. Debate the points mades by FA

2. The Bright and Cohen way.

This is to insult anybody who puts an alternative view. e.g. you will be called a maoist or a member of a Muslim sect.

Knowing Morg as I do, I feel FA that you will be called a fellow travelling Islamist who fought with commies in Budapest in 56.

I could be surprised.

wrapper
21 July 2008 at 11:44

Martin's obsession with the "Islamic radical right", whatever you think of it, is at the exclusion of a focus on far more serious and credible threats to human survival. Such threats include people like Blears herself, who supported and engaged in war crimes which have led to the deaths of likely a million people, and the destruction of an entire nation. The act of an intellectual focusing on official enemies and ignoring the crimes of his own country is by now an obvious and tired phenomenon, and should surprise no-one.

Hussein
21 July 2008 at 14:15

Islam Expo delivered 50,000 people. How many has the Sufi Muslim Council delivered? The voice of the silent majority according to Martin!

Hussein
21 July 2008 at 14:25

Martin, if the goal is community cohesion and to prevent violent extremism, please write an article on how the government strategy is working. And I want concrete proof and stats, not this BS about the silent majority etc.

Morgan097
21 July 2008 at 16:27

knave, old chum,

I hope you appreciate that I'm doing this for you and you alone.

Originally, I'd decided simply to ignore FA, judging him to be mentally defective.

But since you seem to enjoy my travails, I'll proceed with the whole tiresome ordeal.

Dear FA:

I'm happy that you've met one Jew who can't recall losing a relative to the Holocaust. Tell your friend that had Monty and Operation Torch not doomed Rommel and the Afrika Korps to ignominious defeat, he and all his relatives would have long since gone up in human smoke.

The Nazis with the help of the Palestinian Arabs led by al Husseini were to exterminate a half million Jews in what is now Israel, plus all Jews in Tunesia and Syria. As detailed in "Wegbreiter der Shoa. Die Waffen-SS, der Kommandostub Reichsfuhrer-SS und die Judenvernichtung 1939-1945," the Nazis created a special Einsatzgruppe, a mobile SS death squad which was to carry out mass slaughter similar to the way they operated in eastern Europe. " Einsatzgruppe Egypt" was standing by in Athens, and was ready to disembark for Palestine in the summer of '42, attached to the Afrika Korps.

After Rommel's victories in early '43, Tunisian ans Moroccan Arabs volunteered to aid the German war effort as shown by the creation of various Arab auxiliary units, including Freikorps Arabien (Arab Free Corps), Kommando Deutsch-Arabische Truppen or KODAT (German-Arab Commando Troops), and the Deutsche-Arabische Infanterie Battalion 845 (German-Arab Infantry Battalion 845) for a total of 3000 men Plus German cadre. KODAT was part of Sonderverband 287.

When Rommel first arrived in French North Africa, he was greeted by cheers of "Heil Rommel!" and "Rommel! Rommel!" A not surprising number of these Arabs named their newborns after the German commander.

Arabs, of course, were used to guard the Germans' Jewish "internment camps" in Tunisia where 3000 Jews died. These Muslim guards' flagrant thievery was exceeded only by their famous cruelty.

Eichmann initially supported Jewish immigration to Palestine, but after his trip to Jerusalem in 1937, he recommended that Jewish immigration be forbidden. He was apparently impressed by the display of Nazi flags and portraits of Hitler that he saw during his stay there. (Morse, The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism, 2003, p.45)

As most historians are aware, after the Nuremberg Laws were enacted in '35, masses of supportive letters and telegrams were sent to Hitler from throughout the Arab and Muslim world.

The 1943 massacre of hundreds of Jews in Iraq while the nearby British garrison did nothing is equally unsurprising.

Naturally, the story of Egyptian Arab Greenshirts is by now well known. Lt.-Col. and future Egyptian president Anwar Sadat, along with future Wing Commander Hassan Ibrahim and future General Aziz al-Mazri attempted to execute a scheme in which they'd link up with Rommel and supply him with secret information on British strategy and troop movements.

Monty was so wary of the loyalty of the Egyptian troops, that he ordered them as far east of Mersa Matruh as possible.

Now, for the extent of Muslim collaboration in Europe the record is well-documented:

Approximately 100,000 European Muslims fought for the Third Reich during WWII. (Morse, p.74)

Over 500,000 Muslim Turkamans, Tadjiks, and Uzbeks from the Central Asian Soviet republics volunteered to fight fo Hitler. More than 180,000 Muslims were recruited from the Caucusus, Crimea and Tataristan. Many Muslim soldiers came from Lithuania and Latvia, and according to Wegbereiter der Shoa became known as "Askaris."

Reportedly, the Islamic SS fought at Stalingrad. In 1945, the German military founded the Nordkaukasischer Waffengruppe (North Caucasus Armed Group) for Muslim volunteers from Chechnya, Ingushetia and Ossetia. They were organized into 19 independent Islamic combat battalions and 24 infantry battalions in the Wehrmacht. Furthermore, Muslim Turks and Tartars formed a Waffen-SS division known as Ostturkisches Waffenverband (East Turkish Armed League) and SS-Waffengruppe "Turkestan" (SS Armed Turkistan Group).

Many Muslim soldiers had been recruited from Soviet labor camps by SS Sturmbanfuhrer Andreas Mayer. After Mayer was killed by a sniiper's bullet in '44 while conducting anti-partisan operations in Belarus, he was replaced by SS- Standartenfuhrer Haruan al-Rashid, an Austrian convert to Islam. He had led several Muslim units in battle against partisans in the Warsaw uprising of April, '43. (Kopanski, "Muslims and the Reich, pp. 30-31)

Satisfied, knave, old pal?

Morgan097
21 July 2008 at 17:19

And knave,

To this day I'm still furious that almost 40 years ago, Dershowitz gave me a B+ in Criminal Law instead of the A I deserved.

knave
21 July 2008 at 17:29

Morgan you still miss the central point.

Most of the Nazi butchers were Roman Catholic and Protestants.

Do you blame everybody of their religion for the holocaust.

Also many Muslims fought on the allied side for instance

During World War II, the Arab Legion took part in the British war effort against pro-Axis forces in the Middle East Theatre. By then the force had grown to 10,600 men. The Legion, part of Iraqforce, contributed significantly in the Anglo-Iraqi War and in the Syria-Lebanon campaign. These were two decisive early victories for the Allies.

Also the Indian army had a make up of 30% Muslim. Their role of honour.At the outbreak of World War II, the Indian army numbered 205,000 men. Later on during World War II the Indian Army would become the largest all-volunteer force in history, rising to over 2.5 million men, about 800, 000 muslims in size. These forces included tank, artillery and airborne forces.

Particularly notable contributions of the Indian Army during that conflict were the:

Middle East Theatre of World War II

East African campaign

Anglo-Iraqi War

Syria-Lebanon campaign

Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran

North African campaign

Operation Compass

Operation Crusader

First Battle of El Alamein

Second Battle of El Alamein

Battle of Hong Kong

Battle of Malaya

Battle of Singapore

Burma Campaign

Battle of Kohima

Battle of Imphal

Italian campaign

Battle of Monte Cassino

About 87,000 Indian soldiers, 30,000 lost their lives during this conflict. Indian soldiers won 30 Victoria Crosses during the Second World War. (See: Indian Victoria Cross recipients.)

knave
21 July 2008 at 17:41

Ali Haidar (August 21, 1913 - July 15, 1999) was an Indian recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest and most prestigious award for gallantry in the face of the enemy that can be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces.

He was 31 years old muslim , and a Sepoy in the 13th Frontier Force Rifles, Indian Army during the Second World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.

On 9 April 1945 near Fusignano, Italy, during the crossing of the Senio River, only Sepoy Ali Haidar and the two other men of his section managed to get across under heavy machine-gun fire. Then, while the other two covered him, the sepoy attacked the nearest strong point and, in spite of being wounded, put it out of action. In attacking a second strong-point he was again severely wounded but managed to crawl closer, throw a grenade and charge the post; two of the enemy were wounded, the remaining two surrendered. The rest of the company were than able to cross the river and establish a bridgehead.

braver than you and I morg old boy

Morgan097
21 July 2008 at 17:56

knave,

For the most part, Indian soldiers acquitted themselves with distinction during the war.

But the Muslims among them knew that they could never hope to achieve a "revanche de berceau" whereby they would eventually outnumber the Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis, etc. Besides, living among the often fiercely-religious Hindu majority made them tread very carefully.

Western Europe today has, perhaps understandably, lost the Christian faith that once gave it a common sense of purpose and values, and Christianity has been replaced by what?

Devout Muslims sense this void, and energized to murder and suicide by violent imams and religious fanatics like Hamas and Hizbullah (see 7/7), regard the fat, tired west as the Wehrmacht did the French in May 1940 -- an already defeated enemy.

gnuneo
21 July 2008 at 19:05

we invade their lands, and call *them* murderous savages.

christianity has slaughtered its way across the WHOLE world, yet it is islam that is "barbaric".

israel steals palestinian land, yet it is israel's survival that is 'threatened'.

our current crop of 'leaders' either supported vocally, or else acquiesced quietly in the genocidal invasion and occupation of Iraq (an act illegal under international Law), yet the very same leaders say:

"Our strategy rests on an assessment of firstly whether an organisation is actively condemning, and working to tackle, violent extremism;"

and morgan hates palestinians anyway, after all they're weak, and should therefore be destroyed by the stronger Israeli State, this no doubt seems 'natural' to him.

why do you pretend to hate the nazis so much morgan, you clearly have a great deal in common with them philosophically?

knave
21 July 2008 at 21:00

"For the most part, Indian soldiers acquitted themselves with distinction during the war. "

We agree, then both Muslim and Hindu

"But the Muslims among them knew that they could never hope to achieve a "revanche de berceau" whereby they would eventually outnumber the Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis, etc. Besides, living among the often fiercely-religious Hindu majority made them tread very carefully."

They still volunteered to fight the axis powers.

They did not tread carefully after the war, so why should they in the war.

In fact many Indian Hindus fought for the axis powers not muslim indians.

"Western Europe today has, perhaps understandably, lost the Christian faith that once gave it a common sense of purpose and values, and Christianity has been replaced by what? "

They call in the enlightment. In fact you could say the US was the first state based on the principles of enlightment and not superstition.

Also the argument you are using is very similar to the ideas put forward by the mullahs about the lack of moral purpose.

Personally I despise the fundamentalism of the mullahs, the torah and the rapture. They all seem very similar in their hates and likes.

"Devout Muslims sense this void, and energized to murder and suicide by violent imams and religious fanatics like Hamas and Hizbullah (see 7/7), regard the fat, tired west as the Wehrmacht did the French in May 1940 -- an already defeated enemy."

This is a silly argument. As if your society of unbridled materialism, obesity, drugs, frat parties, pornography, street violence, mafia, drug cartels, and lacking in most moral values is the cultural bulwark against islamic extremism then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Also most muslims just want their land and resources back.

Morgan097
22 July 2008 at 09:19

gnumbnuts:

You remain the insolent simpleton.

Speak when you're spoken to.

Now, sit down and behave.

knave
22 July 2008 at 12:22

"No one's saying that 1.1, now 1.2, now 1.3 ... billion Muslims are uniformly dangerous to western civilization. "

That kind of talk was used by the Nazi's

"Had you or your children been among the 197 passengers aboard an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami on Dec. 22, 2001, expecting to spend a beautiful Christmas in Florida, it was not Ali Haidar you had to fear; it was the twisted "Shoe Bomber," Richard Reid."

Or the innocent child hiding in Baghdad bomb shelter. I wonder what he was thinking, just before seeing above him the phosphorus bomb explode then burn his skin off

"Compared to the vast numbers of Muslims who volunteered to fight for Hitler, the corresponding number of Hindus were, as you well know, minuscule."

More roman catholics and protestants volunteered for Hitler.

I hate to say it , Morgan but the likes of yourself, Bright and Cohen who are trying to rewrite the holocaust.

It was a christian atrocity not a muslim one.

Hitler was a lapse Roman catholic

What both surprises and disturbs me is your attempt to equate the Torah and the Rapture with the genocidal venom dispensed daily from the pathological imams and mullahs. There is no moral equivalency, and to assert otherwise is to embrace moral imbecility.

No moral implecity. They all hate gays and embrace violence to deal with any situation. They all believe in crackpot theories such as creationism and the rapture.

They despise secular education.

Also all 3 sorts of fundamentalism have a dislike for liberalism and the enlightment .

Even the neo con Hitchens, bless his cotton socks depises all forms of religion for the same reasons

"From their hole in the Arabian Peninsula they violently emerged to steal and subjugate the "land and resources" that once belonged to Christians."

I'll forget the racist undertones to this statement and try to answer it in global terms.

What evidence do have for that, a few loonies who spout nonsense, I am sure you can get a rent a quote muslim extremist but their no evidence that main stream Islam wants to take over the world.

The average muslim, like the average christain, like the average jew just wants to get on with his life.

Also are their Iraqi, Syrian or Iranain troops stationed in Birmingham, Memphis, Eindhoven or Warsaw. Raping and killing

Are there Iranian jet fighters ready to attack three mile island or Sellafield.

Seems to me we are in their lands not other way round

"Now they think that the Jews are the next dish on the menu. Somehow, I suspect that they're about to experience an unpleasant case of indigestion."

Morgan you seem to "relish" the fact. Although I have little more sympathy for Isreali paranoia, which has a some basis in fact, than your medieval Ferdinand type fear of the moors

Morgan097
22 July 2008 at 12:46

knave, old chum,

Why sound so glum when in approximately 48 hours, one of the joys of Morgie's existence will once again make its annual reappearance?

I speak, of course, of the opening of the New York Football Giants' training camp.

True, for the 42nd consecutive year, I've again somehow failed to secure my rightful place on the roster as starting middle linebacker, but hope springs eternal!

Lighten up, old pal.

knave
22 July 2008 at 13:00

Sorry if I sound glum.

I cannot stand your hybrid game of rugby and whatever but I wish your team well.

Personally I'm a wolves and england supporter and that does make me glum.

Morgan097
22 July 2008 at 13:08

Sorry about England not having even qualified for Euro 2008.

But isn't it about time that the Wolves finally found regular day jobs?

Morgan097
22 July 2008 at 13:20

Take care, old boy,

Gotta go.

gnuneo
22 July 2008 at 19:27

knave: i don't know if you've spotted this yet, but you can often grasp a person's own negative qualities by what they project unto others.

see here this childish thug "morgan", everything he claims that Muslims are doing, he clearly supports his 'own side' to do - it is not the acts themselves he rejects, it is who is doing it.

this analytical tool tends to work best on people who are clearly working from hatred, as that indicates they have a strong 'shadow', or 'other' upon whom they are projecting their own dark fantasies.

it isn't accurate across everyone, and every comment, but its often a very good indicator to bear in mind.

just look at "morgan" - he claims he is 'christian', yet is perfectly willing to dehumanise over a billion people merely on the basis of their religious choice, can't you just see what Jesus's face would have looked like if he'd met him, and "morgan" bleats - "gee fella, i'm one of ur BIGGEST fans!!!"

those who dehumanise others, dehumanise themselves. Do you know knave, when he does those little"gee i'm just a regular guy" posts, i see the image of tony blair smiling? Can you see it too?

niceguy
23 July 2008 at 12:51

I can see it, and can imagine some sort of grinning Huckabee figure with Morgan.

Morgan097
23 July 2008 at 14:08

niceguy:

And I vaguely seem to recall that when we were in college together, Charles Krauthammer considered me an amiable, liberal cutthroat.

Morgan097
23 July 2008 at 14:26

You'd be surprised how few American hayseeds order their clothes from Huntsman and semi-permanently maintain fifth floor Embankment suites at the Savoy.

Morgan097
23 July 2008 at 14:45

I refer, of course, to my prize badger, Rommel.

Ronnie
23 July 2008 at 17:50

Oh my God! This is like Melanie Phillip's mob over at the Spectator.

Morgan097
23 July 2008 at 21:31

Ronnie:

Watch your tongue!

You speak of the woman I love.