Spud

"They must sleep safe in their beds in the knowledge that the voice of the dispossessed is vested in a spoiled 14 year old with a nasal whine."

They might not sleep safe in their beds if you started taking them to task, or you could pitch in some advice and perhaps it would be welcomed (advice other than 'go home, you're not up to it' that is).

"but if what she does is journalism then I'm the Viceroy of egg and chips."

That's moderately funny, but you may have to eat your words as she works as a journalist, so on the face of it it is journalism.

"That's moderately funny, but you may have to eat your words as she works as a journalist, so on the face of it it is journalism."

Henry Kissinger got the Nobel Peace Prize, so on the face of it he's a fuckin saint.

Anyway, who employs her as a journalist? The New Statesman appears to employ her to write fanciful agitprop and allows her a broad degree of licence in her use of 'logic' and 'facts'. Is that really journalism?

She also seems willing to become a self-appointed spokesperson for any half-arsed vaguely dissenting movement she decides fits her image; basically any organisation that's big on stunts and slogans and doesn't encumber itself with anything as burdensome as a workable set of policies. Again, is that journalism?

Perhaps she's also a cub reporter for the Rochdale Observer where she upholds the strictest standards of impartiality and integrity...I don't know, but from what I've seen if she's a journalist then I'm the Archduke of Monster Munch.

"There is (now a) long-standing problem with the way young people are apparently conditioned to think that they command automatic respect while everyone else has to earn theirs."

Not any more. The rights agenda which confers 'respect' on all of us purely through dint of our membership of the human race is, naturally enough, a product of the 'elders' who Laurie seems not to respect. Since she doesn't respect them, she should be only too willing to reject the idea that she or anybody else is due that respect.

And, to be honest, I'd agree with her. I don't respect that many people, and I've never respected anybody for simply happening to have been born. I'll afford them rights and show them basic courtesy but respect is a different kettle of fish.

And I'm getting on a bit...so my views should be respected.

Spud Middleton.

Why comment or even read the article if you're gonna complain about it?

You mustn't have anything better to do with your sad sorry life.

"Worked out Jankaas's band yet?"

Whaddaya mean 'yet'? When have I ever tried to work that out? Why are you so convinced I give a toss? In fact, Ian, why are you so convinced he was in a fuckin band?

"found out how to research European history yet?"

yep...by not assuming all Europeans are German...or assuming the German army contained only Germans...or even a majority of Germans.

Balwal - and your comment isn't?

That is the thing I like about this country, is that the young don't *automatically* repect the older people. I have lived in countries that live that way, and the benefits are outweighed by the disadvantages, like not LEARNING for themselves and making their own decisions. These two things are quite important in my opinion.

Plus well said Josephine H-H I liked your last comment.

"the strategy of the Powers That Be as the status quo enters it death throes."

How does a status quo enter its death throes? Surely it just acquires a new status? It doesn't die...that's the whole point.

"We'll just keep on doing what we're doing, and if anyone has the audacity to build a better society, we'll hit them with sticks, the way we've done since ancient times."

So you're saying that established authorities like to preserve their power and tend to be a bit reactionary about change. Fuck me, that's profound.

So, anyway, how do you explain the dramatic societal progress that's occurred since 'ancient times'? Did it all come about through the actions of non-hierarchical quasi-anarchist youth movements? You see, as far as I'm aware,in this country...and most others...it generally took place quite peaceably through democratic political change...in fuckin parliament, of all places...generally through the auspices of just the kind of 'dinosaurs' and fuddy-duudy elders that you so disparage.

Am I wrong...and if so, can you tell me the real 'secret history' of progressive change in this country?

"Looking forward to the end of the dinosaurs."

as I look forward to the end of youthful ignorance casting itself as radical and significant...I think neither of us should hold our breath. However, I don't think anybody should dismiss a functioning democratic institution which has proved its worth countless times in the past. That it might be currently suffering a democratic deficit is due to apathy, indolence and ignorance on the part of the electorate. There's nothing stopping you or anybody else forming a party, standing and making a difference by putting your policies before the electorate...Oh shit, I forgot...you don't do anything quite as 'determinate' as having policies...you're more about slogans, posturing and trying to look cool and radical...Oh well, never mind..."Death to the..erm..dinosaurs"!!

We all have our own lexicon...it's part of our personal mythology. Why exactly should we defer in the face of a supposedly more authoritative version simply because it bears the Oxford 'logo'? If a university fails to produce rational graduates with self-awareness and a sense of proportion, why exactly are we supposed to invest any confidence in its reference titles? http://www.diyhomerenovations.org/

I'll give the young polish MEN who wash my car for a fiver, respect. The two fools carrying a card that has been designed by Blue Peter, zero. Penny, zero. I'll give no respect to any fool who will only stay on at college because they get a 30 quid a week bribe. I mena 30 quid, that's a single shift at MacDonald's.

You know laurie this has got to stop.

You come acros as a flinty eyed humourless Deirdre Spart preoccupied with personal lifestyle issues that means litle to anyone outside London and a tendency to accuse anyone you disagree with of being a sexist.

Get over yourself and write smething worth reading.

"She's lumped everyone because the people you describe aren't noticed anymore."

Well, apart from the egregious stereotyping that both your statement and Laurie Penny's article manifest...you can't really be 'not noticed' unless you're trying to hide...they're not...it's up to other people to make a conscious effort to 'not notice' you -ie ignore you. If, in your terms, you're saying they don't have a high enough profile on Facebook or Twitter then, frankly, your opinion is myopic and self-indulgent.

"The opponents of changes have an easy time discrediting the current movements as 'mere rabble' when they're unemployed 17-23 years old, but give a wide berth to those among them that can string an argument together."

Name some. And if you start with Laurie Penny, then you're a mug. I'm sure the 'opponents of changes' regard her as a safe bet...a shrill and mendacious 'radical in a basket'; always ready to sit there and confirm everyone's prejudices with a hyper-clichéd self-righteous tantrum...I bet they tune in in their thousands when she's on Newsnight and even drink a toast to her as she shoots any chance of meaningful change in the foot. They must sleep safe in their beds in the knowledge that the voice of the dispossessed is vested in a spoiled 14 year old with a nasal whine.

"My view is that while there are many younger activists that know what they're fighting for, there's a greater number that just joined in because 'LOOK MUM IT'S A PROTEST I'M GONNA GO'"

exactly, and while the media propitiates the latter and gives the impression that they're actually speaking for the whole, then the whole is fucked.

"'By all means. Prove Ms Penny wrong in that respect; get out there, do something about your ailing govt.'"

Prove her wrong...how? By pointing out that tendentious reportage and hyperbolic misrepresentation does nobody any favours? Is that necessary? I think most 'grown-ups' take that as a given. I have no issue with Ms Penny other than when she presents herself as a journalist. If she calls herself a polemicist...fine-not a good one, but...whatever. 'Activist' even -whatever that might mean in her case...but if what she does is journalism then I'm the Viceroy of egg and chips.

and all governments are 'ailing' all the time if you don't support them. Fact of life...even when they're actually doing OK. That's called politics.

Spud has something to say and can say it with conviction (unlike Ian, for example, whose class-based platitudes are simply boring).

My take on most political debate is that our adversarial party political system is founded on the existence of inequality and social division. For the ruling classes, social division is the basis of power.

Have you seen Laurie's new picture on her twitter page? It looks like she's wearing a star trek outfit and her ears are pointy. Her eyes are looking across and you can't quite work out her expression. I always think she's on the cusp of cracking up into laughter and smiles whenever I see her on video or in a non-smiling picture.

I think the outfit is one of those marching bands ones. I quite like the haircut but I'm into red indian hairstyles. She's got a great face.

I'm off for a couple of days myself Spud,, camping in the mountains with some other families. Camping here is Ok because the weather is dry and warm and the facilities are really good. It gives you a return to your nomadic self feel, red indian, mongolian style.
http://www.stateparks.nsw.gov.au/burrinjuck_waters
Been thinking of you .. hope the chores are all finished.

Divine

I'm just putting the finishing touches to my new year's honours list. I'm happy to report you're in the running for the title of 'Crown Prince of Cornish Pasties'. Can I assume you'd treat the investiture with the dignity incumbent upon its recipient?

Dylan...You can be the 'Grand Vizier of Donner Kebabs' if you play you're cards right.

Anyways, I'm off for 8 days on Friday...got a shop refurb in Chorley...the fuckin glamour of it all.

test

N.B We can only assume "well founded concerns" will be raised if everyone concerned has the nous to understand how to raise and share a concern - you know..the policy? ( The head of the Met., said something about whistleblowers in his comments made yesterday about the latest report concerning standards and relationships between the media the public and the police,, I don't personally like the term "whistleblower" but I have no doubt whatsoever that Mr.H.H understands how important the position has become over the past few years)

Sure I'll back your nomination for the Cornish Pasty Viceroyship. I'll like to nominate, second myself and vote myself in for the Bully Boy of Black Puddings ... if that's alright by you? Don't let me twist your arm or anything. I've leave it totally up to you if I occupy this position. Your support will no no bearing whatsoever on my backing for your esteemed candidacy. Nobody else should even consider that it is has.

Chorley eh.. been there a few times. I like the countryside around .. Forest of Bowland(?) .. good walking and cycling. I hear its a bit wet at the mo.

Dear spud, I'm saying that just because your from a working class background its not a bar to a good education or employment. In fact the biggest bar is usually parental attitude. If you left school at 16 with as you put it nothing, then the blame must lie with you in large part, and you achieved this under a labour regime..good old Jim.

Then to call me bourgeois , boy, so far from the reality. I'm the product of the 60's care system. Yet I still obtained a good education in state run schools. Its just that every post Laurie makes you have to attack not her, but her parentage and up bringing. Why, envy most likely.

Still would love a firm definition of "work class attitude"

@stu - here here. This article is simply unreal to simply discourage respect for people who have possibly fought in wars and have worked for a very long time, even if it was in the "good years". I think Laurie's clear anger needs to be directed at the political elite, and not used to promote disrespect to those older than you just because of your economic position. (im 21 :)

Think you're mixing up 'respect for your elders' and respect for the ruling elite.

Laurie,
Your generation is hardly the first to have had things tough, from the 1930s, through the 1970s and the 1980s under Thatcher. There have been plenty of recessions since 1945 and in the early 70's we had a 3-day week, power cuts and mass unemployment. In the late 70's - early 80s, inflation was at 15% and the unemployment figure was nearly 4m. Things then were actually worse than today. In the 1980s, whole industries closed down, in some towns in northern England, south Wales and on Clydeside in Scotland, unemployment was 50%.