Laurie Penny

Pop culture and radical politics with a feminist twist

Occupy Black Friday

Discount shoppers are not the 1% - and activists must remind them that another world is possible.

By Laurie Penny Published 25 November 2011 19:39

It's 1am on a Friday morning, and all over America, as the country jerks and plunges towards economic calamity, people are fighting each other over cheap chocolates and discount shoes. This is Black Friday, an annual festival of cultish consumerism with some shops marking down their wares to 50 per cent, and it is as much a part of the Thanksgiving holiday as cranberry sauce and football.

This year Black Friday has started earlier than ever -- just after midnight in some cities. People pitch tents and queue outside their shopping temple of choice for hours. This is one unauthorised public camping party that city officials like New York mayor Michael Bloomberg are happy to indulge, despite the fact that in previous years people have died in stampedes to get into major stores. So much for health and safety concerns.

Outside Macy's, the New York department store, a handful of protesters from Occupy Wall Street have attempted to "Occupy Black Friday": standing in front of the main doors to block the queue before being moved along by security, chanting "shame!" and "stop shopping!" at the throngs of people rushing into the store. "We stopped Black Friday!", one of them tells me. "We won!"

It is unlikely, however, that the people queuing outside Macy's all night in the hopes of getting their hands on a half-price handbag are members of the "one per cent". The one per cent don't have to wait in the cold or shop in sales to get pointless bits of flashy kit. The thousands of people who surge into Macy's after the doors open, flocking excitedly around racks of belts and bags festooned with teasing red stickers that suggest people on an average wage might just about be able to afford them -- those people are not Senators, bank directors or hedge fund managers. They are office workers and small business owners and tourists and temps and teachers. They are the American middle class, and countless thousands of them are prepared to stay up all night during their precious holidays and enter the special circle of hell that is sales shopping. Yes, it is somewhat galling to those who have begun to invest time and energy in building a ground-up anti-corporate counter-culture that so many human beings can be roused from their beds for shopping, when they might be striking or occupying a major urban thoroughfare. One suspects, however, that the required level of socio-economic consciousness-raising will not be achieved by twenty activists with the look of people who have been sleeping outdoors for most of the past two months, shouting at them in the street.

There are a lot of lazy metaphors I could use to describe the organised chaos inside Macy's. I could talk about the shoppers, bundled in their winter coats and milling mindlessly around piles of sweaters and jeans, some of them already loaded with swag-bags from Gap and Forever 21, as sheep, or cattle, or zombies. But that's too easy, both as a conceit and as a reading of consumerism. Yes, there is a certain glazed abstraction to the eyes of those cheerlessly turning over labels to look at prices, jostling and shoving past fellow shoppers without really seeing them -- but it is not inhuman.

It is, in fact, painfully human. It's about craving, and the chase. It is about wanting to seize small pieces of luck and luxury for yourself and your loved ones in a world in which real wealth -- secure, comfortable places to live, safe and supportive communities, decent healthcare and education -- is almost universally the territory of the rich. It's the short-term sugar-rush of twenty-five per cent off a Michael Kors tote that feels like just enough to keep you from crashing. This is why we go shopping for things that we don't need and can't afford, even when quite a lot of us know better.

One of the remarkable things about the Occupy movement is how it has evolved into an alternative economy of care as well as a static series of protests. Earlier in the day, I spent time at the Thanksgiving celebrations in Liberty Square, where thousands of meals were distributed for free to the homeless and needy. Music played; people danced and smoked and chatted and made human connections whilst sticking it moderately to the man. If the movement wishes to continue to win hearts and minds, it is this generosity of spirit that its members must nurture. Outrage and indignation are not enough, and nor is yelling at shoppers in the street; activists must also persuade everyone else that another, better way of life is really possible. From my experience, free food is never a bad place to start.

In Macy's, thousands of stony-faced late-night bargain hunters scramble for the escalators under huge, sparkling holiday store signs, convinced that they are enjoying themselves. The store signs are round and red and animated by one enormous word, writing and rewriting itself in illuminated script. The word is "believe". Just that -- "believe" -- something between an exhortation and a plea for meaning. If activists can offer an answer to the implicit question "-- in what?", they will come closer to winning hearts and minds than any amount of street-corner shouting will achieve.

More from Laurie Penny

132 comments

Sun, 2011-11-27 19:07 — Stephen (not verified)

Helen, if you can't detect the irony in the 'make me a sandwich', 'iron my shirts' etc bit then there really is no hope.

Tue, 2011-11-29 08:28 — Stuart Eels (not verified)

Mr Divine,

Nice to see you back but please calm down and take your medication.

Little stuart

I just knew it- you managed to duck and dive and avoid the plastic bullet but got done by the tear gas poor soul. why do these things all happen to you? I never seem to encounter such raging Police brutality, it must be where I live in the unreal world. You really should sell the film rights to your exciting real world!

Sun, 2011-11-27 20:04 — Spud Middleton (not verified)

I've just worked out why I've gone...and what this place really is. This column is the NS's attempt to woo its future readership. It's like the occasional cringe-making initiatives that the Guardian or BBC are always trying; they're generally strap-lined something along the lines of "By the kids, for the kids". The low production standards and dubious content are excused on the grounds that they're 'cutting edge', 'quirky' or 'raw' and as such, too hard for anybody over 25 to properly appreciate...except, one supposes, laid-back and self-regarding middle-aged media executives.

Wed, 2011-11-30 15:56 — p j wall (not verified)

@ SpudMiddleton
You`re so Easy!, It`s been a great pleasure in reeling you in!, You don`t also take in washing do you?, Many Thanks for all your compliments?, Bye.

Sun, 2011-11-27 20:11 — Spud Middleton (not verified)

That's why I can never get a handle on the place. This is kiddie-churnalism. The usual rules and standards don't apply. Popping up to proclaim "Brilliant, ignore the trolls" and never actually engaging with the article or other readers is considered high art, and the practitioner an informed and erudite poster.

An appreciation of a historical or political context is obviously out of the question since History and Politics aren't necessary for the techno-savvy ipod-slingers who tend to make up Laurie Penny's 'fanbase'. So if you're so fuckin techno-savvy why can't you nip onto Google now and again and try to at least get a handle on what you're supposed to be talking about.

Sat, 2011-11-26 02:17 — Dave Perry (not verified)

That's a really lovely piece.

Wed, 2011-11-30 16:07 — Fraziel1

P J , you didn't reel him in, he made you sound like a total twat. Sorry to burst your deluded bubble.

Sun, 2011-11-27 20:33 — Spud Middleton (not verified)

And on what fuckin planet is criticisng someone's views misogynist just because she's female? Was that the case with Maggie? Were we all caught up in a false misogynist consciousness? I thought it was about protecting jobs, communities and working-class institutions. Obviously we were all kidding ourselves...we just didn't like the thought of a woman having opinions of her own.

Also...how did PJ Wall manage to make it to the 21st century with a Victorian paternalistic attitude in tact? PJ seems to think that young women should be treated with special consideration and where necessary protected by a knight in shining armour-himself presumably-because their delicate constitutions can't take any form of criticism from men.

Do you read a lot of Mills and Boon PJ? How do the female comrades in your squat feel about your beliefs? Do they think they're sort of quaint and charming or do they think you're a chauvinist throwback?...I know you live with your mam and dad really, I just didn't want to embarrass you.

You see the thing is PJ, you're not so wide of the mark where this thread's concerned. I think the idea is that this place should be subject to different standards. It's not as though you'd send in Jeremy Paxman to interrogate the local Brownies to find out who was to blame for the fiasco on the cake stall.

I think the NS should at least put some sort of warning into effect so that people don't think this is a sort of special-needs blog...and normal posters should take this into account.

Anyway...that's all I've got to say on the issue. I doubt I'll be responding to any replies. However, if anybody wishes to contest anything I've posted then, in the best-and it seems officially sanctioned-traditions of this blog let me assure you that you're a troll...what's more, you're a bourgeois liberal troll with no taste, historical perspective or much in the way of common sense.

Sat, 2011-11-26 02:45 — Nixon is Lord (not verified)

The NonConformist conscience's puritanism is now no longer the Puritanism that thought that holidays were Popish. It's now the puritanism that thinks they're Consumerist.
But the vapid, simpering self-importance and "We know better than you" paternalism is still very much alive.
And still looks down its nose at its Puritan/puritan half-sisters in the (former)colonies.

Sat, 2011-11-26 02:47 — Dave Perry (not verified)

Why do half of you even bother saying anything on here? You've nothing to say! It literally is like watching kids pull a girls hair in the playground. .. (i can't even believe i'm saying this, i never quite get the cliche stains entirely out of my keyboard..) it's actually torture sometimes to see you do it to yourselves.

Sat, 2011-11-26 02:59 — Dave Perry (not verified)

..not you Nixon. You actually have Something to say, bit melodramatic like but at least there's content there :-)

Wed, 2011-11-30 16:41 — p j wall (not verified)

@ Fraziel1
HA, HA, Diddums, Diddums, you sound slightly upset and agitated?, very Chivalrous of you, as one of his groupies to defend him in such an Eloquent way!, Very touching!, Thanks for your compliment?.

Tue, 2011-11-29 13:33 — Spud Middleton (not verified)

Whatever

"What I have come up with is not 'woman-hating' but a couple of instances where there is an implicit sexist meaning."

No Whatever, you didn't. What you did was to choose to interpret what you saw as sexist when viewed from a certain perspective. I think you were guilty of confirmation bias. There's very little sexism displayed on this thread...but don't let that stop you searching. Those straws don't clutch at themselves.

Incidentally, this is in no way to play down any actual sexism. I'm quite certain that Laurie Penny and other female bloggers do indeed suffer sexist abuse. But that's because we live in a world relatively abundant in fucked up men. I'm even sure female bloggers attract more abuse than women in general since there are certainly plenty of men who resent women expressing themselves and being taken seriously.

However, I really don't think it's remotely realistic or proportional to ascribe all and any criticism of women bloggers to sexism. Sometimes people just write crap...and it's always right to say so.

Sun, 2011-11-27 21:41 — Pollik

Shame on the apparently male bullies trolling the comments.

Attack the arguments and not the woman...or do you not have the brains?

Wed, 2011-11-30 17:28 — Buckskins (not verified)

pj the only thing you want is attention. I say this because you continue to run your dribble but you ain't saying a darn thing. Keep on trying to press Spuds buttons. I already reminded him that he can't eat you. He never listens to me as it's obvious he has been eating you alive. Now why don't you toddle off to Yahoo chat where you came from.

Sun, 2011-11-27 21:41 — Fergus Pickering (not verified)

I think the idea of lefty women is that Maggie wasn't really a woman at all. She was organised, smart, intelligent, not teally a woman at all.

Sun, 2011-11-27 22:11 — Craig (not verified)

Pollik
Penny doesn't make arguments, just assertions. And she dismisses people who disagree with her as 'trolls', so what's the point?

Sat, 2011-11-26 09:43 — Kim (not verified)

I really appreciate your articles, they give me faith in the young. People need to remember that the half price goodies these non thinkers are lining up for are the same as the Cake that started the French Revolution. Down with the 1%. I thought the American revolution was built on the French idea of liberty and equality. He guys that's why the gave you the Statue of Liberty. Wake up the Cake is now crumbs and your democracy is a sham, just like most western democracies.

Sun, 2011-11-27 22:11 — SpudMiddleton (not verified)

Pollik

Will you point out just how many comments on here "attack the woman"? By which I don't mean "attack the writer" which is an irreducible aspect of "attacking the text". Go on, quote from 'all' the purely misogynistic attacks....let's count them 'all'.

Then we can count up the accusations of misogyny and see just what kind of ratio we arrive at.

If it turns out to feature a big fat fuckin zero, then you might consider revising your previous remark. And you might wish to consider why you made it...just exactly which unfounded assumptions led you to comment on something that didn't actually exist. Then you can give us your opinion on the best kind of candy-floss to feed a unicorn.

Wed, 2011-11-30 17:57 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Spud, there's only one person that's been using their right hand while watching Home and Away and the consequences are for all to see. Lets hope that the said person switches hands so that there is a symmetrical squid like effect.

I've got to come to the support of pj wall primarily because pj is a Liverpool fan. Lets face it none of you have said anything with regards to the topic of the article. Even I haven't hardly bothered being more content to follow your general piss taking. What is Laurie saying?

Believe ... that consumerism is alright and that protecting the environment is OK. There is nearly always destruction to have creation; so it appears that the two are diametrically opposite. But then if you see a person as being 'creation' then the material and physical well being of people is a form of environmental protection ... the highest form. If a coffee makes you feel good then that is a form of environmental protection because it is benefiting you as a part of creation.

Tue, 2011-11-29 15:08 — Fraziel1

Yet more childish mince from Laurie. It's getting embarrassing. NS, what are you thinking of allowing this crap in your mag? It's ok for the student rag but here? laurie loves sticking it to the man. That will be the man that allowed her to go to private school and an elite university. Don't you realise Laurie you are as out of touch as the millionaire tories you endlessly bleat on about?

Sat, 2011-11-26 10:41 — Stuart Eels (not verified)

Dave Perry

You should really get down on your knees and propose to Ms Penny. You could both then go off on honeymoon to China for a couple of years and learn how their system works. You both could then leature us on what a wonderful world it is!

We choose to come on here to make comments according to our own views, the fact that they don't chime with yours doesn't in anyway invalidate them.

You can't put food on the table if you are sat in a tent lecturing the world on how we should spend our money, grow up!

COME BACK SPUD!!!!!!!

Sat, 2012-03-03 18:46 — Taggart

There is nearly always destruction to have creation; so it appears that the two are diametrically opposite. But then if you see a person as being 'creation' then the material and physical well being of people is a form of environmental protection ... the highest form. If a coffee makes you feel good then that is a form of environmental protection because it is benefiting you as a part of creation. http://www.chancermusic.com/

Wed, 2011-11-30 18:12 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

If the Occupy Movement rejects leadership making decisions by consensus then 'The Movement' by definition can not lead other people outside of the occupation. Does the Occupy Movement have any ambitions to lead society? You can't expect everyone to be camping out in the city squares.

To me The Movement needs to move onto land that they own, and transform that land and their lifestyles. It can lead by example.

Thu, 2011-12-01 22:57 — Spud Middleton (not verified)

"...that the by the time you get to the end, you have forgotten what was written about, so shocked are you by the comments."

and that's a bad thing?

Sat, 2011-11-26 11:47 — Drivel Spouting Pleb

Consumerism would be an acceptable evil if it were not both leading to environmental catastrophe and damaging our own countries competition in the process.

While many people bemoan our countries noncompetitive Labour force the fact is that its not the real problem, nor is our deficit, but constantly shipping your industry away from your country does not historically bode well for any country, Spain did this in the 16th century which helped a great deal to destroy it as a world power because it lead to the shipping out of all their wealth, buying pointless shit from other countries of Europe, obliterating their accounts in the process.

The other problem is obvious, with near scientific consensus of Environmental degradation being directly caused by humans, there is a clear and present need to cut back on the amount of superfluous goods, its a tragedy of the commons situation.

Mon, 2011-11-28 01:05 — Gereon (not verified)

I just read the column again, and at least one point really needs some deeper thought I think:

"activists must also persuade everyone else that another, better way of life is really possible. "

While the possibility of a better way of life is certainly true, from my point of view mere persuasion would definitely be the wrong way. What is actually needed is some verifiable concept - (since real proof wouldn't be possible here)

I think the whole movement suffers from a severe lack of communication, which is really a bad thing, because i think just the protest doesn't lead anywhere.

Handing out free food or snacks, would give them two minutes to explain people how this better world would work rather than just promise what it would look like. That will be painful work, but it's absolutely necessary if they don't want to take the risk that all that protest will be for nothing.

This might be an interesting chance to come up with a working way of life.
I really hope they won't waste it.

Sun, 2011-12-04 17:46 — Stuart Eels (not verified)

Oh dear oh dear little stuart, is that the best you can come up with after all this time you silly little man/boy. Don't tell me some nasty plod has hit you with his truncheon to make you so bad tempered, what will the girl guides think of your language?

AnoymousVendetta69

What makes you think that the Dictators that rule most ofthe world would allow their people any short of luxury? you have to get out of the 69 position.

Sat, 2011-11-26 12:24 — Jimmy the Catfish (not verified)

Dave Perry

Why don't you set an example by disappearing? The best thing that could happen around here is that nobody reads this stuff and nobody comments. We have to starve silly young exhibitionists of the Oxygen of publicity. If Laurie Penny appears on Newsnight again her voice should be provided by an actor. They could even use a daft squeaky voice for comic effect.

Sat, 2011-11-26 12:41 — Tesco Shelf Stacker (not verified)

Underneath these attacks on consumerism I see a new form of snobbery. Consumers are painted as gullible and easily manipulated by powerful corporations, while the anti-consumerists among the Occupy crowd with its attacks on consumerism, are presented as above it all while looking down and sneering on those who queue to buy their expensive gifts at Macy's. Yup, the Occupy movement consist mainly of self-centered rude snobs and the public are becoming weary of their pseudo-rebellion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQwbWQy6EUM

Sat, 2011-11-26 12:42 — Tesco Shelf Stacker (not verified)

Oh and ..... COME BACK SPUD!!!!!!! ;-)

Mon, 2011-11-28 07:44 — Stuart Eels (not verified)

Spud if you really mean it that you are going, sorry to see you go, good luck.

Sat, 2011-11-26 14:21 — p j wall (not verified)

@Jimmy the catfish
@Frank malone
@Stuart Eels
All delicate, sensitive little buttercups aren`t you?, sounds like you`re all having little playground tantrums!!, girl has opinion!, we don`t like that!, it`s not fair!, let`s all skit her and pick on her!, cos we`re all big ard boys!!,
Pity the women in your lives!!, dread to think what happens if they speak without permission??, Lift your Knuckles off the floor when you`re all walking!, you might cut them!!!.

Sat, 2011-12-03 04:42 — Big (not verified)

I didn't realise Laurie Penny was transgender until I just read about it in the Telegraph.

That does explain some things.

Tue, 2011-11-29 17:36 — Buckskins (not verified)

Remember Spud. You can kill pj, but you can't eat him.

May I take this opportunity to welcome my dearest friend to the Spud fan club.
I am of course referring to the blog corrector of punctuation. ( who really can differentiate between Lose and Loose)So despite her deep love of all things American lets give
a big warm welcome to the Spud fan club to......Daniel...barf.

Sat, 2011-11-26 14:38 — Steve (not verified)

Rampant consumerism is as ugly as the poverty caused by the inequitable distribution of wealth.
Poor people do not have choices.

Sat, 2011-12-03 09:40 — Stuart Eels (not verified)

Spud and bob, so agree with you.

Big

Big does that mean big head? I don't actually care if Lairie Penny is trangender and I suspect nor do most of the people making comments here. What I do care about is that she makes things up and reports them as fact and writes rubbish.

Fri, 2011-12-02 01:54 — bob (not verified)

Errm...I seem to remember that just a few weeks ago Laurie was telling us that it's actually really ok to support multinational coffee shops and own things like smartphones and ipads, and that we shouldn't let it bother our consciences. But now it seems that all of a sudden consumerism is a really bad thing? Or is it perhaps that those people trying to get a bargain in the sale just seemed so terribly vulgar to the sensibilities of a middle-class liberal elite who can afford the luxury of paying the full price for their consumer trinkets?

Sat, 2011-11-26 15:48 — Jimmy the Catfish (not verified)

"..girl has opinion!, we don`t like that!, it`s not fair!, let`s all skit her and pick on her!, cos we`re all big ard boys!!"

...so what you're saying is that if a young woman-she's not a girl, in fact I think she'd probably object to the term-has an opinion then we should respect that opinion just because she's young and female?
But isn't that entirely sexist? Are you saying that we should make allowances for young women-perhaps because they're not really very good at forming opinions?

"Pity the women in your lives!!, dread to think what happens if they speak without permission??, Lift your Knuckles off the floor when you`re all walking!, you might cut them!!!."

and what about the women in your life-if there are women in your life-do you listen intently to everything they say and agree no matter what they're saying?
You see I think there are many many young women with perfectly valid, well thought out opinions. It's just that this column isn't written by one of them.

Tue, 2011-11-29 18:38 — p j wall (not verified)

@ SpudMiddleton
Do you share your mate Mr Divine`s view and comments?, just curious!.
Do you advocate one of your groupies 'Buckskins' comment "You can kill pj, but you can`t eat him", should i now request police protection?, and should i go into hiding?, because i`m really scared!!!!, you`re not a cannibal are you?.

Fri, 2011-12-02 01:57 — AnonymousVendetta69 (not verified)

@john - there's nothing wrong with 'consumerism' per-se, it's the rampant conspicuos consumerism and materialism that is a blight. we can no longer sustain the level of consumerism enjoyed by the 'wealthy' west, because this planet has a finite amount of resources, resources that are required to make the products we consume.

Sat, 2011-12-03 11:12 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

C not positive inbox.
bye.

Tue, 2011-11-29 18:39 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Thanks for the sensible advice Stuart. The new meds are remarkable in the sense that they give me a constant contentment consciousness. My eyes twinkle, my smile strong, and my skin glows. I wonder what has happened these past 30 years of so.

The beauty about economic development is that it goes hand in hand with medical progress. Some say that primitive nomadic people had happy lives but they usually died at about 30 years old and had stacks of horrible diseases.

So materialism personified in Black Friday sales is a force for good.

Sat, 2011-11-26 15:54 — Jimmy the Catfish (not verified)

Tesco shelf stacker

"Yup, the Occupy movement consist mainly of self-centered rude snobs and the public are becoming weary of their pseudo-rebellion."

Amen to that. But don't forget their online armchair supporters such as PJ WALL who demands respect for the Occupy movement's supporters by trying to insist we apply sexist double-standards.

Sat, 2011-11-26 15:58 — Jimmy the Catfish (not verified)

By the way PJ WALL, what should we do if we see a column by a young black disabled lesbian dwarf? Should we even bother to read it or just proclaim her President of the World straight away? Or do we only do that if she also went to Oxford?

Mon, 2011-11-28 13:40 — p j wall (not verified)

@ SpudMiddleton
ER, you`re a tad wrong about me living with my mum and dad!, if i did it would be like a scene from Jacko`s Thriller?, They`ve both been dead for years!!!, Also, iv`e got no problem in criticising the views of women!, i, like many others detest what Thatcher stood for, and said so!, i just find some of the comments childish and petulant!, some of them are playground stuff, the sort you`d hear boys shout at girls in the playground!!, nothing to do in criticising a woman!, Laurie probably laughs at some of the childish comments herself?, it`s all part of the business she`s in!, also Laurie`s wise enough to know her views create debate, also criticism!, the women i know can well look after themselves, even against cowardly, pathetic, childish remarks!!, I see you can Swear!, some would say that`s a lack of Intellect?, using profanities!, doesn`t bother me, but some would be?, I see you`ve got a sheepish following of groupies!!, some would find that VERY SAD and STRANGE for so called grown ups!!!.

Tue, 2011-11-29 19:08 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Yes Spud Middleton there are lots of fucked up muppets ... at times you'll find thousands of them at Goodison Park chanting deranged things like, " We are the Greatest!".

Some of them believe the hype.

Sat, 2011-11-26 16:33 — Dave Perry (not verified)

I'm takin heat from the right yo!

Stuart, I am a strange sort of realist, consequently there is barely any romance left in my soul and, when active, it hardly ever dictates anything i do :-) Lurching beyond your inappropriate matchmaking.. I don't aim the criticism at anyone who simply disagrees, i just mean that most of the peoples who disagree with her don't express opinions on the issues, they just clog everything up with inane, cheap renderings that only really show how much she gets under their skin. This is a leading political journal, it's surprised me that the comment sections are mostly made up of people finding blunt instruments to dig at other people with. On reflection, when i consider my limited experience and understanding of British politics, all politics, i really don't know why that's surprised me.

Jimmy the Catfish, i'd be fucked off with reading some of the shit i see on here whoever it was addressed to, regardless of your/their gender etc.. etc...etc..

Tue, 2011-11-29 19:29 — Dickie1

@ Spud - will I did my best and we can all learn from the experience. Sometimes you have to roll up your sleeves and have a look to see what you can find. It is not always what you expect but that is like anyone's writing, it will have a personal angle as there is no such thing as absolute objectivity.

@Stuart - Sorry I seem to have wound you up a bit. I didn't pick on the comments because I thought you might want to insult someone and therefore I could fill the role. You raise some interesting points and to take them on board now is the right thing to do. Sorry if I have not taken on board all the great advice from various people but there is just so much of it.

I will be back later to learn more but I will avoid making any rash mistakes like having my own viewpoint, especially when I haven't checked with you all first.

Great to see you back Divine, I'm sure I'll be learning from you too someday.