Stuart. Put the valium away for a minute; let me try and explain:

Conservatism (right wing) can be defined (according to Wiki):

"It is the persistent image of society as a command structure in which the responsibilities of leadership can be exercised within the framework of a strong state manifested in divine-right royalism ... that distinguishes English conservatism from rival ideologies."

Socialism (which is what Labour is traditionally tied to) is defined:

"Socialists advocate a method of compensation based on individual merit or the amount of labour one contributes to society. They generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth within a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. They argue that this creates an unequal society that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximise their potential,and does not utilise technology and resources to their maximum potential in the interests of the public. Socialists characterise full socialism as a society no longer based on coercive wage-labour, organized on the basis of relatively equal power-relations and adhocracy rather than hierarchical, bureaucratic forms of organization in the productive sphere. Reformists and revolutionary socialists disagree on how a socialist economy should be established"

That's a broad definition, there are different versions and politics of today have become somewhat merged in values. Now put the Valium away!

nick,when your addicted to valuim like me then you might understand i can never put them damm tablets away.

Broderick: I take your point over long-term welfare dependency. May I remind you that it was the Tories who openly threw people onto the 'scrapheap' (your term) by way of transference to Disability Living Allowance from 1992 and Incapacity Benefits from 1995; it being them that introduced both of these benefits. It was their way of reducing the embarrassingly high unemployment statistics. Yes, it's true Labour should have done more to control it, but the bigger point is how it was 'Conservatism' in all it's glory, which gave rise to the high unemployment figures in the first place.

see nick,i just laugh at those who attack me because broderprick and divvy divine one day might lose everything and be in the shopdoorway looking for a bit of empathy,and do you know what i would not spit at them,i would not curse them.what i would do is pop a few quid into there tin so they could buy a bit of food and a hot drink to see the through the day,thats a very important difference betreen me and those who like to belittle me.

tell you what nick,stay well away from that prozac lark.i felt more depressed taking that crap and it is supposed to be the happy tablet.i am not being nosey nick(yes i am)what job do you do.

@Nick
The guy or gal that becomes dispirited and is without work for longer than say six months, surely no longer can be described as “transient unemployed” I would say that person has opted not to participate in the work force any longer. I’m firmly convinced an able bodied guy in particular can find work. Not the work or salary they had perhaps, but gainful employment never the less. I found your visit to Mickey D’s interesting. Those kids put in a full shift and I mean a working shift. Over here it’s mostly high school kids doing the jobs in fast food, or high school dropouts. Then they go home and do home work and get up very early for band or sports practice. Many of them already have a work ethic that lasts a lifetime. I’m sure Stuart and I disagree about many things, but that does not mean we can’t get along. He will find his own way as you say. I believe he is marching to the beat of his own drum. It’s odd that I came into this blog to fight with a bunch of pinkos but some of you are almost human and quite interesting. I believe I’m becoming a bit of a Laurie groupie. I best be watching that sort of thing.

When I say run it Stuart, I do more than my share of the practical work, it's very satisfying, I actually enjoy going to work. It's a lot of hours, gets pretty stressful at times, but it's great seeing so many different kinds of folk.

well done lad,at least your doing good for the community.fair does.

Cheers Stuart. By the way, in giving you those definitions, Left Is Forward sums it up quite nicely by saying "the rich should be able to do as they like", but that's only a perception shared by some; but it accounts for taking away things like speeding cameras, paying huge bonuses to those that don't really need them, de-regulation (which tends to benefit only those that it would otherwise control), legalising fox-hunting etc and generally putting down the welfare state. It's a bit like 'survival of the fittest' in their book. The problem with it is everyone just isn't fit or able. Some wouldn't agree with that view, but I think it's how a lot of people see the coalition. I'm sure a lot of them on here will have other ideas!

your right buckskins,we can disagree on issues without resorting to nastyness and blind hatred,as you probably know this blog can get a bit heated on certain topics because its just human nature that we all are gulity of believing are opinions are always right and everybodys eleses is wrong,but betreen the line lies the truth.

From the 22 June, the mainstream media, did the Tories dirty work, by convincing the gullable general public, that they must suffer because of the country's deficit. Even the Tories must have been amazed at how easily this was sold. Now, their mates in the city, could carry on as normal, without any punishment for their massive role in the economic recession. They say 'We're all in this together', but no one in the media has asked how cabinet ministers are going to be hurt by the cuts, why not?

why dont you shut up your mouth broderick you upper class tory ponce, i am not controlled by socalists and least of all tory and lib dum dipsticks like your crowd,you call me uneducated you piece of dogmuck,why dont you take that plum of of your throat broderick and stick it up that big ass crack of yours.

UK budget deficit £150 Billion.

Taxpayers money to shore up the banks £850 Billion.

I want my money back. I most certainly don't want to see these greed ba£tard bankers walking away with their huge bonus and salaries. Tax the beejesus out of them rather than grabbing from the poor. Fine them for their fiscal irresponsibility. They owe us that money.

Really enjoyed this post, especially this (which was worthy of Charlie Brooker):

We all know Londoners are tough, but summoning the Blitz spirit to counteract the quotidian annoyance of transport strikes is rather pushing the envelope. What next, sounding the Last Post when they run out of tuna baguettes in Pret A Manger? At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, apart from the natty uniforms there is really no equivalence between the Rail, Maritime and Transport Union (RMT) and the Third Reich.

Against this backdrop, it was interesting to hear (on PM yesterday) that French union leaders are admitting the importance of the - disputed - attendance figures for yesterday's protests: they admit that if only affected workers protest, the protests will fail.

From a tactical point of view, that seems to be the bit that Bob Crowe et al. are ignoring - striking now, over a nebulous issue that even Crowe himself struggles to explain (the explanation you offer above is probably the third distinct iteration I've seen articulated by those supporting the strikers) is eroding any public support there might be, and fostering resentment of the strike and the strikers.

Totally disagree with the conclusion (of course) but enjoyed the read - more please!

true nick,the more these torys reveal there true agenda with these spending cuts blitz not for there greedy boss mates but against the poor pensioners and dole claimants and oh and it was a good day for the torys and there lapdog clegg to bury another 4 billion pounds in cuts to the welfare state because the news was dominated by some bloke in the us who wants to burn a few books and that took the spending cuts scandal off the top of the news agenda and that must of pleased osbourne and co.why arent there 1 million people out on the streets to protest these evil blitzkrieg of savage cuts,whats happened to the unions and the backbone of people of the uk,bloody hell i am sounding like a bit of a socalist, better watch that

Yes I listened to a programme about the effect of the cuts, the difference in views between left and right is very wide now; the Liberals may as well call themselves Tory. I couldn't believe how Osborne could come up with that one over 4 billion to be cut. I tell you what though Stuart, it'll be a fiasco. They say they will review all these claims and now loads more, but the dumb twat forgets that he's axing money to the DWP and Jobcentres. I had a letter from the HMRC today telling me the local office was closing to 3 days a week! I speak with DWP decision-makers and the Tribunals all the time; they tell me they can't cope as it is. I've seen some of the DWP proposals for October, they themselves say they aren't workable. Osborne will never make those kind of cuts in a million years, there just isn't the infrastructure. I do think when it's the other side of Christmas, we will see at lot of revolting & protesting. The other side of Christmas is always our busiest time, debts 'n' divorces is what I call it, next year will be horrendous I reckon.

My compliments to Laurie Penny on a very thought provoking article; a real array of interesting views on here: well done!

Stuart, would you like to meet up somewhere in Hackney, place of you choosing, so we can chat about why socialism (which you seem to hate) is compatible with class war (which you seem to be okay with)? I've got a job, so it'll have to be after 6pm, but apart from that, it's up to you.

'There is no wealth but life.' John Ruskin.

http://www.neweconomics.org/sites/neweconomics.org/files/Are_You_Happy_1...

@Silly Stupothead:

Ten year on a building site .. so what? I bet you were the T boy, "Eh Stu I need another cuppa." Or were you on one of those highly unionised sites where you sit around rolling the next joint? I've worked on enough building sites not to be impressed: I just to work as a brickies labourere for a private firm, that's working. But it was nothing in comparison to other jobs I've done .. try industrial cleaning in a steel works in confined spaces.

Nay you need to get off your arse, make and save a bit of money .. pot holes firms are bound to be looking for labourers. Or you could retrain as a truckie, here in OZ they can make over 2 thousand quid a week... that's clear. Get off your arse and stop crying. There are opportunities even for the unskilled.

well nick, as if we dont have enough to put up within are own country with these tory and lib dum nuts telling us what to do,some bloody aussie from the outback called divvy divine is sticking his big snout in are internal politics in the uk,now i am not even going to bother to respond to divvy divine anymore and i suggest he concentrates on his own country and there problems,could not be arsed with you anymore divvy divine go and play with your didgeridoo.

I don't think the mass of people are as gullible as you take them for.

The problem lies in a lack of political leadership for those outside of the ruling elite. If you're struggling to pay the bills there's not much time left over to set up a new political party of the left which is so desperately needed in this country today.

Thank you Martin. You are obviously familiar with those interviewing techniques; as am I. I'm slightly curious as to what you do in criminal justice, I'll leave it to you as to whether you wish to say.

Yes it's true, there are just some that just won't bother, in which case nor do I. That's the deal I strike up with my client's. But my point is over this; it's over respect & trust.

Actually, posting on here gives me hope. Why? Because, I get to see the good in people like Stuart and conversely, I see that in you too. Your two views are deeply opposed, but essentially you both seek to listen and understand. You know many of my views, god knows I put enough of them on here!, equally, I now know many of yours. We are able to communicate because there is respect.

Some people say I'm a 'do-gooder', it's not quite how I see it but yes I try to do some good, but it isn't in a nanny state kind of way at all; I don't believe in that.

Before you can say something 'offensive' to someone you have to earn their trust, if you do that from an uninvited stance, it's just bad manners, it only alienates. Many of us will have had loads of stick from those we know and we take it because we trust them well enough to give it, we even respect them for 'kicking arse'. But you can't wade in without earning that trust first.

The way to help people aspire isn't to put them down, that will never work. This is where I believe this coalition has got it wrong, very wrong. I don't believe any of these politicians are necessarily cruel as individuals; but their message is. They are creating an inherently unhealthy class divide before our eyes.

I've posted elsewhere about how I believe in helping people back to work, but it has to be constructive help; part of my deal is to expect my client to do their bit, in most cases they do. I'm not bragging but my success rate in good outcomes is exceptionally good. By good outcome, I mean not just the way it has improved my client's lot, it has to relate to how it's helped those around them and increased their contribution to society.

Benefits can be long term for those who will not recover, more often than not they are however, short term. Short term as in a prop to help people between the time they say leave one job and start another. We have to recognise that this current economic experiment will create a high number of transient unemployed. I completely agree work is a good self motivator; I applaud all the good it does. I'm reminded of that each day, because I enjoy what I do. This is what we have to teach people, show them the way, we have to do it with trust and respect.

This coalition, if it makes millions unemployed has an equal duty to provide opportunity and support. It can't advocate a 'big society' if it's not going to show us how it will harbour the trust of all those it hurts. This coalition is sending out all the wrong vibes, I don't like it, not one bit.

I wholeheartedly agree with welfare reform, but I have deep concerns. My concerns are principally over the mechanics, I've posted an 'essay' on that elsewhere. I wish people like government would consult with us, we get the token gesture every now and again but it never comes to anything despite all our efforts to engage.

The way forward is neither left or right, it is someplace in between. This coalition could succeed if only it changed it's views. My view is it will fail, I'd put money on it because it's just not showing people that all of us are in it together at all.

the basic test is if you (any of us) were unemployed for 6 months, would you work for marginally more than benefits - if the answer is no, then you are a hypocrit and a scrounger!

I agree that not everyone can be a captain of industry. However, I also agree that some people may only be able to attain 'low' jobs. But theres the rub. I've seen people with Down's (high functioning) holding down jobs, people who have to conquer immeasurable prejudice and obstacles, YET they still fight on!

The problem is that we are not making people work for benefits - make them empty the bins etc- this would give them humility and teach them ! It also might give them an incentive.

I am building a road on my land in my spare time. To save money I am doing it all by hand - there is a cetain dignity in labour - to those who will say i am making myself money, i say, so what, if an ordinary chap like me can, anyone can (with the exception of geninely disabled people).

look at the number of people in mobility the scooters - see how the vast majority leap out of these things then walk briskly to overtake you to the front of the Indian restaurant!

Don't you get it? these benefits people are entrepeneurs!!!!! many of them lie and cheat to earn more than you or i Nick - So tell me who deserves the sympathy,the middle class (the workers), or the benefits scroungers (queen Bees who have masses of children, mot of whom grow up learning that unemployment is fun, rewarding, and a job for life!!!!!!)

Broderick: It's not about controlling cradle from grave at all, it's about educating, enabling and empowering people. It's a far more effective way than insulting people over their apparent lot whilst reminding them of the virtues of a capitalist system. It's the adoption of such attitudes which will serve to alienate sectors of the community, ultimately such attitudes will bring about the demise of this coalition.

Perhaps, if we were back in the days of sharing shelters during a blitz, at least people would have to rethink their differing views or else risk a bloody nose.