The west must not use women’s rights to justify war

Wed, 2010-08-18 22:32 — felix (not verified)

1R4M

EVERYONE NOTICES THAT YOU HAVE NOT DENIED STONING.

"there r millions homeless in Pakistan yet I doubt u care about that"
I have been posting about it for days.

As an ex aid worker I find your comments amusing.
I doubt you have ever gone hungry in your life as you probably grew up in the west that you hate so much,

Has OIC stuck its hand in it pocket yet as a loving muslim you would know.
Nasty old America has contributed the most funds so far.
AS FOR HAITI THE WHOLE MUSLIM WORLD STUMPED UP 3 MILLION!

OK. Lets keep this real simple brutalizing women is bad,war is worse.

The former is no excuse for the latter and the latter is no excuse for the former.

I doubt you agree.

STONING IS AFTER ALL PART OF SHARIA WHICH IS PART OF CLASSICAL ISLAM IS IT NOT!
and you expect modern thinking people not to hate Islam!
It is Islam that divides the world in to kuffars and Muslims not I,it is your belief not mine that splits humanity apart.

Muslims are a different matter as most of them were born into a religion that they can't leave under punishment of death,that
is truly hate worthy if you ask me.

Try and deny that if you can.

Wed, 2010-08-18 22:50 — stuart (not verified)

there are millions of homeless people in darfur,there are homeless people in china where 2000 chinese died last week in landslides,there are millions of starving and homeless people in north korea,i could go on and on about the suffering of people all over the world but less we seem to care about them.

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:35 — felix (not verified)

If the American did nor raise the issue of woman's rights in Afghanistan feminists would be scream why dont they do something about women rights etc
Its a bit like being a social worker.
If you intervene ,its none of your business.If you don't ,why didn't you intervene,you should have done something.
So it goes.

Wed, 2010-08-18 23:29 — felix (not verified)

@stuart
"there are millions of homeless people in Darfur"
where I used to work. Mainly caused by a genocidal Muslim goverment.

"there are homeless people in China where 2000 chinese died last week in landslides"

Actual 80 dead, 2,000 missing (the number of people killed or missing in floods across China this year are about 2,100)most were Tibetan's and the land slides are caused by deforestation implemented by the Han Chinese government of left wing China.

",there are millions of starving and homeless people in north Korea,"

Caused by a far left socialist ideology with a totally centralized government that cripples food production and distribution.

Tue, 2010-08-24 21:20 — stuart (not verified)

i would have have no objection to watching a group of women in afghanistan stoning to death a man who raped a woman or a child, in fact i would quite enjoy joinng in the stoning.

Thu, 2010-08-19 00:00 — Susan Allan (not verified)

so thomas should we view your claims of queerness to be bigoted, behind the times, and most probably fraudulant? because if you were caught as such in iran, you might like laurie to write an article for you.

Sun, 2010-08-22 17:59 — stuart (not verified)

is it true that laurie penny has been invited to appear on countdown on channel 4 as a guest.just rumours i heard but it should be very interesting viewing.

Thu, 2010-08-19 01:43 — EdWelthorpe (not verified)

There is no proposal in this article, beyond being generous to 'asylum seekers'. What fraction of Iranian women get close to successfully fleeing that country? So the ones who are the most trapped and the most desperate should be disregarded, while we fixate on those who reach our shores?

Thu, 2010-08-19 02:12 — Mrs.Josephine Hyde-Hartley (not verified)

Personally I can't understand why they don't get rid of the so-called death sentence. Punishing people by death is too easily corruptible. Further, I can't and don't believe God or anyone else really needs to watch such horror in this day and age. Isn't there enough pretentious violence on TV and in films anyway? And any death sentence anywhere anytime, anyplace is pretentious in my view. What's merciful about executing this level of state power in such a hopeless context? Where's the God in this place? We may never know..but I'm sure God doesn't need anyone else to sort His business out ie who lives and who dies. One wonders how many people will be making a meal/living out of this poor woman's lot. It's disgusting. May God help her.

Wed, 2010-08-25 19:13 — triedeinsursE

stuart feel free to read between the lines regards my post on sweet Laurie being stoned.

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Thu, 2010-08-19 05:39 — stuart (not verified)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/7951577/China-floods-dramatic-...

Wed, 2010-08-25 20:49 — felix (not verified)

@'stuart'
Men do the stoning 'stuart'.

As 50 year old men can marry six year old's in afghanistan you dont get many reported instances of child rape.
When women do report rapes they usually end up being buried alive for dishonoring the family.

I am sure you would approve.

http://www.wluml.org/node/5824

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/7161701/Teenage-...

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=MTI1MDgwMjM3MQ==

Thu, 2010-08-19 09:36 — Clem the Gem

As a lefty, I can admit that for years now, the dominant strain in much of our discourse has been anti-americanism, rather than pro-human rights. Perhaps those on the european left who were shocked by the fall of the horrendous regimes in central and eastern europe simply hung on to what remained rather than reassessed the world around them.
We would do well to remember Ernie Bevin's words -
"If I had to choose between Liberty and Equality, I would choose Liberty. With Liberty you can always fight for Equality."
It makes no sense to deny peoples fundamental Human rights on the basis of moral relativism.
The idea that simply because we dislike one powerful state, we should deny or ignore the injustices around us is a betrayal of our brothers and sisters across the globe. Once again, the "not in my name" faction are at best burying heads in the sand.

Wed, 2010-08-18 11:59 — 1R4M

Many people get stoned to death in Iran
why is this woman's case that has suddenly sparked an interest in the West?

I find it a bit rich for western forces to be sooo concerned about the welfare of women. It's ridiculous. Women are oppressed EVERYWHERE
not just in Muslim countries

Wed, 2010-08-18 12:20 — swatantra (not verified)

I think you are absolutely right. The War has never been about womens rights, or the fact that the Taliban are subjugating its own peoples.
The War is about the seedbed of terrorism that Afghanistan is; its about a hole in the wall for Al Queda and Bin Laden. Its about terrorists cells spreading out all over the world fron that region, and threatening our very security.
If the Taliban handed over Bin Laden and ceased its extra territoral activity, our troops could return home tomorrow, and we'ed be happy to leave Afghanistan as a feudal backwater to its own resolution. No qualms about it.

Wed, 2010-08-18 12:20 — mr_wonderful (not verified)

There are many reasons for wanting to demonise the current Iranian regime but I don't imagine for a second any of them are preparation for an invasion of any kind. I doubt any government wants an Iraq x 10.

Wed, 2010-08-18 12:45 — felix (not verified)

Laurie Penny
"Article 340 of the Penal Code of Jordan states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty."
"Similar laws were struck down only very recently in Syria, Morocco and Brazil; in Pakistan, incidences of women and girls being slain by their families for sexual transgressions (including having the gall to be raped) are routinely ignored by police and prosecutors."

Iran,Syria, Morocco and Pakistan,Somalia,Sudan and Nigeria etc etc all Muslim countries all of these laws are based on Islamic sharia or are in fact sharia which for some reason you fail to mention ?
Brazil,now that I found surprising,what law was that? could you be a little more specific.

As for the rest War has always been called the mother of lies,or as the prophet Mohammad said ,"War is deceit"no great surprise.But it is good to be reminded.

The brutalization of women for reasons of honour and religion would exist with or without war,an unpleasant and unfortunate fact.

At least the war has made their plight know it was totally hidden before.

Wed, 2010-08-18 12:50 — Dorian (not verified)

America needs to go to war, It's a militaristic-capitalist plutarchy, it can't keep up growth if it isn't stealing oil from somewhere.

Wed, 2010-08-18 12:59 — felix (not verified)

@1R4M
"Many people get stoned to death in Iran"
SO THAT'S OK THEN ?
"Why is this woman's case that has suddenly sparked an interest in the West?"
MANY GROUPS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING AGAINST THIS FOR MANY YEARS THESE PHOTOS IN 'TIME' JUST HIGHLIGHTED THE ISSUE
I find it a bit rich for western forces to be sooo concerned about the welfare of women. It's ridiculous. Women are oppressed EVERYWHERE not just in Muslim countries.
I SAY AGAIN,SO THAT MAKES IT O.K ?
IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES THE ABUSE IS ON THE WHOLE FAR WORSE AND IS SANCTIONED BY THE STATE AND RELIGION.

AS HUMAN BEINGS WE HAVE A SHARED DUTY AND RESPONSIBILITY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS EVERYWHERE.

I FOR ONE ONE WILL NOT GO AWAY AND CRAWL UNDER A ROCK OVER THIS ISSUE, JUST SO AS NOT TO OFFEND MUSLIMS.

THESE ACTS ARE AN OFFENSE IN THEMSELVES.

1R4HUMANITY!

Wed, 2010-08-18 13:10 — Dave C (not verified)

I can't hear any drumbeats for war. Who exactly is proposing the invasion of Iran, other than a few right-wing American ideologues?

Obama opposed the invasion of Iraq and he's in power until January 2013. Even assuming a Republican President, it's unlikely that there would be any popular support: the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan haven't gone particularly well.

Wed, 2010-08-18 13:12 — felix (not verified)

http://mccoy.lib.siu.edu/jmccall/otherafricas/sharia.html

for those who dont like reading ,sharia illustrated .

Wed, 2010-08-18 23:04 — felix (not verified)

"flogging a dead horse in this blog with the head in the sand lefty's"

you said it,the total denial of the intrinsic connection between sharia law and Islam is mind boggling.
Islam,sharia,Islam,sharia,they just dont seem to get it.
They are so afraid of some mindless Muppet screaming Islamophobia.

You even get 'left' wing gay's supporting the regime in Iran!
A regime that would have them hung from a crane given half a chance and would remove every liberal freedom they posses.

But then again I suppose the Nazis were socialist's or a least that is what they called themselves.

Wed, 2010-08-18 13:31 — Cheah (not verified)

@ ir4m & felix

I agree with felix. It is sad that ir4m justifies such an act by the sheer number of cases or the fact that in many countries, women are still considered inferior. The worst part about this whole situation is how the Iranian government is turning this into a religious issue. It is a question of humanity, how someone can do this to another living, breathing person. Having said that, do sign the petition that can help save Sakineh. It is the least we can all do after all that Sakineh has gone through.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-sakineh-mohammadi.html#fbbox

http://freesakineh.org/

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stop_stoning/?cl=651962225&v=6766

Wed, 2010-08-18 13:37 — felix (not verified)

Cheah
"The worst part about this whole situation is how the Iranian government is turning this into a religious issue."

It is a religious issue.
I just hope that one day compassion will trump religion.

http://schnellmann.org/stoning_bukhari_muslim.pdf

Wed, 2010-08-18 13:43 — Alex Stapleton (not verified)

They'd invade Iran with or without a cover of feminism and social ideals to hide behind. As you rightly say it's just a PR scheme but saying that doesn't do much to actually combat the invasionists when the real motive the public support for attack is based on fear of nuclear war and terrorism. (Which in it's self is just an expression of our fear of no longer being in charge of the world as our economic clout slowly slips away.) We'll feel slightly more guilty about it but feeling guilty seems to have become part of the western psyche. We like being guilty.

Your ideals are being used against you and you are falling intro the trap of debating the smoke screen rather than what's behind it.

Fri, 2010-08-20 07:50 — Tommy Danger (not verified)

Who said anything about the US invading Iran.??.. The US Admin will simply allow it's proxy in the middle eastern combat zone, Israel, carte Blanche to carry out a "precision" bombing raid to "take out" the nuclear facilities in Iran. Why just recently, I believe I read that Saudi Arabia had signed an agreement with Israel permitting Israeli military jets to fly in their airzone... So it seems like the foundations for attack are ready in place. All New Statesman readers should know that women have been oppressed since time immemorial, in any land irrespective of religious belief - that is just a cover for insecure macho bigamists whose lack of any emotional dialectic results in an expression of physical violence.

Wed, 2010-08-25 23:10 — stuart (not verified)

felix you naughty cat,its me that wants the men stoned in afghanistan and hung upside down on cranes so vultures can pick there eyes out for the way they treat women and girls and i would go one step further and make every man in afghanistan wear a the burkha or the niqab to protect there modesty in the name of equality betreen men and women.

Wed, 2010-08-18 13:54 — Matthew Taylor (not verified)

This is an interesting take on the Sakineh Ashtiani case, but I can’t see the argument that it's part of a coordinated attempt to build support for action against Iran holds water.

If anything, advancing such arguments has damaged support for western presence in Afghanistan (one excellent summary, "Endgame for the West in Afghanistan? Explaining the Decline in Support for the War in Afghanistan in the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, France and Germany" is available here: http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=994 ), so I'm unclear why anyone would try it (note that the Wikileaks CIA document comes from before the experience of support for action in Afghanistan.

Your analysis also requires a conflation of government agendas with those of the media, and a view of government as pursuing one consistent, coherent strategy that’s totally at odds with the messy, multi-layered nature of government policy (and unintended consequences). "Ethical foreign policy", anyone?

Asserting, even implicitly, a moral equivalency between archaic UK pleas in mitigation, and an entire legal system which is built on denying rights to certain groups, and imposing severe sentences of moral offences, is similarly unhelpful.

There's a limited, and valid point to be made here - that we cannot consistently criticise regimes for their record on women's or LGBT right if we're prepared to deny asylum to those fleeing those same regimes - but the broader assertion of a narrative-to-war has no real foundation.