Alex Hern

Dispatches from the front line of the internet

Syndicate contentRSS

Reddit blocks Gawker in defence of its right to be really, really creepy

Links from Gawker are banned from /r/politics, after journalist threatens to reveal the identity of the man running Reddit's "creepshots", "beatingwomen" and "jailbait" forums.

The front page of r/politics
The front page of r/politics

74 comments

badgerm's picture

I’ve been a regular user of Reddit for the past five years (though admittedly of the less controversial subreddits such as r/fitness and r/bicycling), and have some problems with the way you’ve presented information here. Your title, as you admit in the sixth paragraph, is false. Reddit, (where ‘Reddit’ refers to the site and its administrators) has blocked nothing.

Any user of Reddit is free to create a subreddit (sub), of which they then become a moderator. They can add other moderators with the same administrative rights, if they wish. The moderators of any sub can impose pretty much any rules they wish; many subreddits don’t allow links to *any* websites, permitting only self-posts (posts that link to a reddit page, as opposed to an external site, to prevent ‘karma-whoring’). This is exactly what has happened here; as you explained, the administrators of r/politics have blocked links to Gawker sites. No site administrator has done anything, only the sub’s moderators have acted. r/politics itself is a cesspool of sensationalist left-wing and libertarian nonsense, where sensible discourse is rarely to be found.

The ‘default’ subreddits, those to which visitors to the site who are not logged-in see by default, are determined by an algorithm that measures the popularity of submissions in each subreddit, and the ensuing discussion. No site administrator has chosen r/politics to be a default, it just came in the top ten as given by the algorithm.

Reddit (the site)’s attitude to free speech is not complex: anything is allowed, unless it breaks the law (or sails too close to the wind). Again, individual subreddits’ moderators may choose to allow or deny free speech as they choose: anyone posting derogatory comments about the DPRK or Kim Il Sung in r/pyongyang will find themselves immediately banned (unable to post or comment in that particular subreddit, not the site as a whole). Only subs that break the law, or draw too much ire for *possibly* breaking the law, are shut-down by the site’s administrators. This was the case with r/jailbait and r/creepshots.

A sub that you have failed to mention, r/shitredditsays, has been engaged in similar activity to predditors for some time. Some of its individual users have also been caught flouting the ‘no doxxing’ rule, and have blackmailed other uses who post or comment creepy things they’d rather people in their lives didn’t know about. Again, I’ll stress: this is individual users threatening individual users, but the users of certain subreddits engage in it more than others. All of these actions (banning, being creepy, threatening others) are found within the Reddit community; saying ‘Reddit did this’ is misleading.

Regarding the violentacrez case: it is clear that this guy is *very* creepy indeed. Many of the users who interacted with him were quick to defend him as a lovely chap, but I simply cannot reconcile that view with the kind of content that he posted and moderated. However, if he was not doing anything illegal then he was well within his rights to be as weird and disturbing as he wanted to. Given that, what’s wrong with the administrators of the site or a particular subreddit defending that right by wishing to protect his annonymity? Being creepy is not illegal; we all have proclivities we’d rather the world not know about.

By doxxing and essentially blackmailing violentacrez, Chen was engaging in the same awful behaviour that other users of the site have been known to engage in, *and if caught are banned as a result*. Gawker Media’s relationship with Reddit is far more complex than Reddit’s attitude to free speech: they lift stories from Reddit on a daily basis to drive their advertising revenue, and when the content is to odious to lift directly, they write a scathing article decrying Reddit as a whole for allowing such terrible stuff. Many redditors dislike Gawker for their hypocrisy, and so banning links to Gawker sites on r/politics will no-doubt be popular with the subreddit’s users.

In stating that “the site is certainly incredibly creepy”, you’ve completely missed the point of Reddit: taking the site, all its subreddits and all its users, and denouncing them in a single stroke is as misguided as doing the same with the Internet as a whole: “You post programming questions on StackOverflow? Must be some sort of pervert.” Most disappointingly of all, Gawker Media and the Daily Mail have been doing this for years; you really are late to that particular party.

Alex Hern's picture

I have a few key concerns with absolving Reddit (the company/the site) from taking responsibility for what has happened.

The first is that /r/politics is a default subreddit. Picking the default subs is basically the only editorial action anyone in the management team performs, and it makes what happens in those subs far more representative of the site overall. Reddit has actively delegated an important level of authority to the mods of /r/politics, and takes responsibility for what they do with that authority.

The second is that Reddit is not claiming inability to take action, it is claiming it is against policy. That policy is misguided, and once Reddit became aware that it was too simplistic a view to take - which they unambiguously did in August 2011 - they must take responsibility for the fact that sticking to it is tantamout to approval.

I have no interest in whether the actions of Chen, violentacrez, the /r/politics mods, SRS or anyone else are within Reddit's rules, because I contend that Reddit's rules are fundamentally broken. Similarly, for the purposes of this post, I have no interest in the ethics of the rest of Gawker's relationship with Reddit, since it does not affect the fact that this action, at this time, was wrongly taken in defense of violentacrez.

Being creepy is not illegal, and neither is doxxing someone who is being creepy. The difference between the two is that there is almost certainly a public interest defence for linking some of the most virulently misogynistic comments to their speaker.

"Essentially blackmailing" is borderline libellous and nearly led to me deleting this comment.

As a user, as you say, of the good side of Reddit, these actions should concern you more than anyone. A Reddit which continues to absolve itself of all responsibility for the content it hosts will, as I say, be increasingly assaociated with the cesspool of the internet in the minds of people who only hear about it when it's done something terrible. You should support the campaign to tell Violentacrez and his ilk that Reddit is no home for them.

 

badgerm's picture

As I said in my post, the default subs are not editorial decisions; they’re chosen by algorithm. I think this is a mistake in itself, because r/politics and r/atheism in no way promote the best of what Reddit *can* be. I continue to contend that the action by the moderators of r/politics is independent of, and in no way defended by, the site administrators. It was the moderators who took the action (wrongly, I agree), not the admins.

Apologies for “essentially blackmailing”; I have no idea what the legal definition of blackmail is, and have not the slightest interest in finding out through the medium of a libel case. I can’t edit my comment, unfortunately.

The site as it was created is a very different beast to that which it is today, and I agree that the rules created at its inception are insufficient to police it now. I can’t see Reddit existing in its current form with the same rules in three years’ time. Having been a registered user for so long, and being subscribed to none of the default subreddits, I admit I’m largely shielded from the ‘cesspool’.

Traverse Davies's picture

So, a couple of little issues with what you stated here:

1) r/politics was chosen by algorithm, not by reddit admins. That is how default subreddits are selected. Do you really think they would have picked r/atheism given how much trouble it caused them?

2) The issue with the creepshots subreddit was separate from the issue with violentacrez, since it was a completely different admin. The two things might be related, but they aren't the same issue.

3) The r/creepshots issue actually involved blackmail, not something that was tantamount to blackmail. A federal offense in both countries involved.

4) The removal of r/jailbait was due to it coming to the attention of the admin team that child porn was being actively traded there... it was a legal violation, and they have always stated that if the law is being broken they will take action.

That pretty much points out why you are wrong.

John Powell's picture

Jailbait wasn't removed because they had just noticed it. People bitched for a long time and it was only when the SA goons and Anderson Cooper went after it was it taken down.

AccidentalZen's picture

"You should support the campaign to tell Violentacrez and his ilk that Reddit is no home for them."

So you are now the voice of moral and ethical activity on the internet now. Last I checked, your job was to report news and give opinions (poorly, I might add), not dictate how other people should live their own lives.

MujumberTikitu's picture

I'm only going off the rumour mill, and not offering solid evidence in support of anything.

But if it is true that Chen told VA, either delete his account or Chen would expose him, that is clearly blackmail.

VA did some pretty scuzzy and creepy things on Reddit, but he was very careful to never do anything illegal.

So let's look at a stereotypical example of blackmail. Someone with a reputation in the community gets photographed having sex with multiple people, the people with the photographs tells the person either they hand over a bag full of cash, or the pictures get published. The victim of the blackmail did nothing illegal, but the release of the photos would be devastating to their public reputation.

It is the exact same thing with the VA/Chen case. Chen demanded VA act in a certain way or he would release the information that would be harmful to VA's real life reputation, it could even harm his employment and personal relationships. This is text book blackmail.

Alex Hern's picture

If you are "only going off the rumour mill" then you do not have enough evidence to accuse anyone of a crime without it being potentially libellous.

More to the point, I think you may be getting your wires crossed. There was apparently a blackmail which led to the closure of creepshots, but that wasn't Chen. The rumour mill conflated two stories.

MujumberTikitu's picture

I do realize that there are two stories. One where an unknown forced the closure of creepshots through blackmail. and the one where Chen made demands of VA using blackmail.

Now I have been clear that I am only going off what people have written in Reddit, which completely clears me of libel. I have not stated it as fact, simply that it is the story that is going around.

Chen has shown himself to be a d-bag in the past, and Gawker is a shitty rag of a website.

Marcus Blay's picture

Say what you like about Gawker, but it doesn't tolerate ephebophiles and violence against women the way reddit does.

stln00b's picture

But violence against men and gawking at 17 year old boys is A-OK...

MujumberTikitu's picture

It's not really fair to compare the two, since they are such different entities.

Gawker is an on-line tabloid. All entries are approved by the editorial staff and is provided by paid staff. Gawker for what they are, keeps a strong control of the content they provide to the public.

Reddit is a social news aggregator. The Reddit admins take a very hands off approach, they try and allow the community themselves to dictate what content gets pushed up, as well as even what content gets linked. Reddit allows the users to not only pick what communities they want to view, but also allow anyone to create any commuinity they want.

So yes, there are several subreddits I could do without, but allowing one group to dictate what should and shouldn't be allowed goes against how reddit operates. For the most part reddit is good, and the users have zero interest in the more questionable subreddits. But to be against the entire website because certain dark corners don't fit the societal standards, is as dumb as hating the entire internet, because the internet host certian dark corners that are even worse than the bad subreddits.

myparrotsteeth's picture

It's worth pointing out the title "Reddit blocks Gawker in defence of its right to be really, really creepy" somewhat implies it was the owners/administrators of Reddit who banned Gawker links, but this is not the case. The moderators of r/politics are not the owners of Reddit as a whole, they are just members of the community who happen to moderate a subreddit. Users, in other words. This Gawker ban is in no way sanctioned by Reddit as a whole entity; in fact a much more accurate title would be "Subreddit moderators block Gawker from their subreddit in defence of another Reddit user's right to be really, really creepy".

That said, I think Alex was fair to point out the individualistic culture fostered on Reddit; that is exactly why the admins would not ban an entire domain from the site. They only do that for spam and phishing sites.

Finally I don't want this comment to be taken as defence of the /r/politics moderators or violentacrez. The latter is decidedly creepy and /r/politics itself is about as balanced in political discourse as Fox News.

KateW's picture

violentacrez didn't create /r/creepshots or even post to it, ever. Quality journalism Alex.

Alex Hern's picture

It's hard to research someone who's committed infocide. Nonetheless, this PM which violentacrez sent before deleting his account implies he had a lot more to do with /r/creepshots than you make out, and I've read elsewhere that he was once a mod of the sub.

Handy's picture

Low-quality blogspam is hard work, Katew. Cut Alex some slack.

Alex Hern is an idiot's picture

Actually, that PM states that person that requested mod status added VA as a mod without his asking, hence the quote; "Also, you may have sealed my fate." This is all one massive bitch-fit over one subreddit out of thousands blocking trash links, which prevents Gawker media from exploiting reddit for financial gain.

Don't forget that it was a Gawker author on Jezabel that wrote about the Predditors tumblr site that was created to share an insane amount of personal information about redditors that posted in the r/creepshots subreddit, which caused one Toronto redditor to be sought out and physically attacked.

Your pathetic excuse for biased journalism seems on par for the company you write for. You can't attract readers with anything intelligent, so you write tabloid articles about a specific site, one that is used for gain, to lure in the gossip hounds of the world.

How about for one second, you and every other sorry excuse of a write here stop pretending reddit is the only website that hosts anything questionable. The internet is full of the exact same thing everyone seems to be up in arms about, but no one wants to do anything about it. No, they want to live in their own, little closed-off world and pretend reddit is the only thing in existence. At the same time, there is much, much worse that is available to browse on reddit that, again, no one wants to care about. This picking and choosing of what the morally deranged of this site and reddit want to battle against is some of the biggest hypocrisy I have encountered.

Every single person that has had something to do in any form that has lead up to the end result being blackmail and physcial violence should be ashamed of themselves. This was no victory and in the end, those that did the fighting look worse than those they battled against. You all need to grow up. And you Mr. Hern, you need to rise above this writing in the scum, How about trying to be a real jounalist for once in your sorry life.

Chris Doring's picture

Actually, I feel it is good that Toronto creep got his comeuppance. Free speech does not give a person the right to avoid the public consequences for their speech. The anonymity of the Internet gives people the balls to say things that they would normally never say because they would face public scrutiny/outrage, even violence. Used to be, if you wanted to be a sack of sh*t, you had to OWN IT. Say what you want about Neo-nazis, KKK members, anti gay activists, enviromental extremists, etc., at least before the Internet those people were brave enough to voice their extreme or unpopular opinions without hiding behind a veil of anonymity. If you take creepy public pics of girls OR guys and then post them online for public consumption, you SHOULD be outed and be forced to face those you have victimized and/or their loved ones. I regularly troll political sites, for my own amusement, and I always do so under my real name/email address. I get threats of violence all the time, and my response is always the same. Go for it. Come at me. Let's see what happens.
I wish that Toronto redditir got hurt worse than he did. If it was my son or daughter I would have gladly gone to jail to make sure he never forgot the consequences of his actions.

CDoring's picture

Actually, I feel it is good that Toronto creep got his comeuppance. Free speech does not give a person the right to avoid the public consequences for their speech. The anonymity of the Internet gives people the balls to say things that they would normally never say because they would face public scrutiny/outrage, even violence. Used to be, if you wanted to be a sack of sh*t, you had to OWN IT. Say what you want about Neo-nazis, KKK members, anti gay activists, enviromental extremists, etc., at least before the Internet those people were brave enough to voice their extreme or unpopular opinions without hiding behind a veil of anonymity. If you take creepy public pics of girls OR guys and then post them online for public consumption, you SHOULD be outed and be forced to face those you have victimized and/or their loved ones. I regularly troll political sites, for my own amusement, and I always do so under my real name/email address. I get threats of violence all the time, and my response is always the same. Go for it. Come at me. Let's see what happens.
I wish that Toronto redditir got hurt worse than he did. If it was my son or daughter I would have gladly gone to jail to make sure he never forgot the consequences of his actions.

Alex Hern's picture

Hi! If you want "real news", you might like the stuff I write for our economics blog. Today I blogged about negative interest rates, as well as on credit ratings agencies. You could even comment there, with your lovely username, which is totes adorbs.

As a tip for the future, if you're looking for real news, try not clicking on stories with titles like "Reddit blocks Gawker in defence of its right to be really, really creepy", which tend to be about Reddit blocking Gawker in defene of its right to be really, really creepy.

Reddit isn't the only website which hosts anything questionable. It is, however, the only website owned by a major media organistion with several million regular users which had to be bullied into removing child porn in the year two thousand and eleven.

And as for the "one Toronto redditor sought out and physically attacked", I presume you're referring to this, which can be shortened to "this thing happened which totally makes our enemies look bad but no we can give you absolutely no proof whatsoever okay? Just trust us on this one guys." Which, no, I don't think so.

 

Darren Blacksmith's picture

I hope you don't bring the same distortions and lack of attention to detail in researching your articles for the economic blog too.

AccidentalZen's picture

You realize that in the span of one post you just told someone to read other things you write if they want "real news", and then immediately after told them not to read what you write if they want "real news".

It's nice to see that NS doesn't bother with quality writing these days if this is what they resort to.

Keeferq's picture

He also fails to note that the jailbait subs were closed months ago and that the beatingwoman sub is satire.

As usual NS does fuck all research.

Alex Hern's picture

You say:

He also fails to note that the jailbait subs were closed months ago                     

I wrote:

Both subreddits have since been deleted. The first went in a cull of similarly paedophilic subreddits in August last year, which also took down r/teen_girls and r/jailbaitgw ("gone wild", as in "girls gone wild").

As for beatingwomen, I said it was "focused on beating women", which it is. Its community claims that it is intended to be satire, and I don't believe them. If they do intend it to be satire, they are failing miserably and causing almost exactly as much damage as if they were doing the very thing they are mocking.

Latest tweets