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Why we should ban e-petitions

If MPs want to connect with voters, they should get out and engage with them, not hide behind a website.

The government's e-petition web site is live, and the people have spoken. Well, not so much spoken as e-mailed. Or filled in an e-form, if you want precision.

And you do. You clearly do. At least, your government thinks you do. It's after proof, you see. Cold, hard, incontrovertible, silicon-generated evidence. Your thoughts, codified.

There was a time when politicians took the pulse of the public. Not any more -- now they demand a computer generated sample of our political DNA.

"People have strong opinions and it does not serve democracy well if we ignore them or pretend that their views do not exist," said Sir George Young, the somewhat unlikely standard bearer for this new populist cyber-revolution. But he's right, of course. Let's take the fashionable example of capital punishment. In the fifty years since it was abolished, the very fabric of British democracy has been rent asunder by the pro-hanging lobby. Not a week goes by without another enraged mob parading down the streets of our fair land, nooses in hand, bellowing that all too familiar chant: "What do we want? Death by lethal injection! When do we want it? Now!"

Thanks to Sir George and his e-petition, calm will hopefully now be restored. The savage breasts of those who would have the necks of their fellow citizens broken in a moment of premeditated vengeance will be soothed. "OK, we didn't get a change in the law," they'll will say, "But thanks to Sir George our voices were heard. They may have been totally ignored, but never mind. Our faith in democracy is now restored."

Let's, for a moment, take Sir George at face value. What does the e-petition system say about us and our priorities as a nation? Taking today as a snapshot, and moving away from the debate on capital punishment, we can deduce the following. We don't like the Human Rights Act. By "pm, 152 people had agreed with Peter Chuah that it should be abolished. People don't want their libraries closed. Over 140 of them signed Ruth Bond's call for the government to "ensure that a comprehensive and efficient library service is provided". And apparently we want to abolish the monarchy. 114 people agree with Brian Mendes that "The heredity principle of our head of state is inimical to the principle of the sovereignty of the people. The existence of the monarchy is therefore anti-democratic".

So there you have it. Britain speaks. And it when it does, it tells us to tear up the Human Rights Act, re-open all our libraries and get Kate and Wills to start polishing their CVs.

There are some things, though, that we don't seem to care about. We're apparently not all that bothered about Ben Needham, the 21 month year old boy who went missing on the Island of Kos in 1991. Scott Morrison's call for a full police investigation into his disappearance, similar to that being undertaken for Madeleine McCann, had attracted one signature. That's eight fewer than the number of people who agreed with Stuart Loades that 26 October should be designated King Alfred the Great Day.

Nor can we seem to agree on a solution to the problems in the Middle East. The number of people calling on the government to force Israel to lift the siege of Gaza, seven, was closely paralleled by those urging the Palestinians to recognise Israel as a Jewish state, six. That said, those expressing concern over the centuries old conflict between Jew and Arab were somewhat overshadowed by the 6,000 people who want to keep Formula 1 on the BBC.

"Anything that helps to put parliament at the centre of national debate has to be a good thing," said shadow leader of the House, Hillary Benn. No Hillary, it doesn't.

The e-petition system is a grubby, tacky, sordid, sleazy, headline-grabbing gimmick. It is the worst sort of X Factor style politics, cheapening and debasing our politicians and our political process.

Far from placing power in the hands of the people, e-petitions serve only to put more power in the hands of those who have ways of influencing the people. The lobbyists, the activists, the business interests; those who have the time, money and resources to manipulate them in their favour.

If our politicians want to demonstrate empathy with those who elected them, they should get out into the country and engage with them, not lock themselves in the Cabinet Office, hiding behind a website. And they can explain face-to-face how they have absolutely no intention of withdrawing from the Human Rights Act, re-opening our libraries or abolishing the monarchy.

I've just submitted an e-petition calling on the government to ban e-petitions. I hope you'll sign it.

51 comments

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Matthew Thorpe's picture

Surely an easily accessible, online method of interaction with the Government opens up lobbying to the wider public? Rather than, as you claim, enhancing the power of special interests. I would argue it gives the average person a quick and convenient outlet to get across their views. Furthermore, it shows a willingness to adapt to the modern politics of extensive social media influences.

Daniele1's picture

Bratiaith:
Your explanation as to why people misuse the word fascism won't do. What you are saying in effect is that there is no way to qualify a brand of left wing politics which is authoritarian and anti-democratic and that only a word borrowed from an Italian right wing extremist movement of the 30's can describe populist dictatorship and political extremism. This is plain nonsense and ..very interesting!
Excuse me but you yourself mention Staline, so what's wrong with saying " the Stalinist left"? I would have no qualms with that.
All this only goes to show the poverty of education, political education in particular, in Britain today.

Dan Hodges's picture

Crutchbender,

Last time I looked the petition to retain the ban on capital punishment was outpolling the petition to reintroduce it.

Dan Hodges's picture

Matthew,

"I would argue it gives the average person a quick and convenient outlet to get across their views".

Views across to who? And to what end?

SamB's picture

Dan Hodges is a fucking moron. He wants to ban everything.

I rarely visit this site but the last time I visited a couple of months ago he had written an article calling for the banning of expressions that are offensive to Muslims.

He just wants to ban everything he doesn't like.

1R4M's picture

er...fascist left?? surely thats an oxymoron

and its funny how ppl go on about wanting capital punishment because its the 'right thing to do' yet the same ppl will call islamic law barbaric because in some islamic countries, e.g. saudi arabia, they do have executions

but we have the moral high ground of course

Blighty Andy's picture

Please correct your grammar and read up on democracy.

Dan Hodges's picture

Andy,

Is that me who should be breaking out the democracy text books?

David's picture

All that the Government is doing here is bringing a modern approach to the process by which the public can (and do) petition Parliament, and it echoes the now long-standing example of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. Yes, our representatives should make the effort to get out there and speak to the public. But so too should Parliament make it easier for the pulic to interact with it. We live increasingly busy lives, so when do most people have time to go and discuss issues with their elected representatives? And as for the subject matter of the petitions - well that's up to the public. People have issues they wish to raise and it is only right that they are given the opportunity to do so, and to attempt to gain wider public (and possibly Parliamentary) support. Parliament is there for us, apparently, so if the public have more possibilities to interact with it, it is a healthy thing.

Django's picture

Terrible article.

100,000 signatures are needed on an e-petition before it is put before parliament for discussion. The system ensures that an e-petition must have substantial popularity before being considered.

The site has only just started, so none have reached that level yet. It's easy to sneer at something in its gestation period, and clearly just too tempting to do so to fill column inches.

Dan Hodges's picture

Django,

So you're confident that over time the petitions on Israel and Palestine will draw more support than the petition on keeping motor racing on the BBC?

Gregg's picture

So far, the e-petition site seems to be showing that tabloid push-polling has been completely wrong and public support for the death pentalty is only a third, with two thirds staunchly against. If they achieve nothing else, it looks like these e-petitions will prove that the "silent majority" do not share the beliefs of the conservative elite - and that is extremely worthwhile.

Matthew Thorpe's picture

Dan,

Views across to HM Government obviously, seeing as it's their website?! And if taken further, then to Parliament to be discussed in our sovereign legislature.

To what end? To bring an issue into the sphere and discourse of policy-makers, the hallmark of any respectable democracy.

WillM's picture

I think they need to make the maths questions in the comments harder to stop people like crutchbender commenting....

Arturo Bandini's picture

Quite right - we elect politicians supposedly to exercise their judgement on our behalf, not to appeal to lowest-denominator dog-whistle loonballs.

I expect government to lead, not follow.

"Tell me where my people are going in order that I may lead them there!"

Jeremy Corbyn's picture

I agree that there are lots of petitions and many are to put it mildly obscure but politiciand need to hear view and e mails provide it. I get far more feed back from constituents via e mail than I ever did by post. However, Dan is right there is no substitute to talking to people on the streets and e mails can never be a substitute for that.

Matthew Thorpe's picture

Arturo,

Yes, MPs exercised sublime judgement over expenses and cash for questions didn't they? Really gauged the public mood perfectly there.

It's a two-way street. Neither public/government can lead exclusively.

swatantra nandanwar's picture

Basically petitions are rule by the mob. Ok express your feelings but don't expect to get what you want.
Many factors play a part in reaching a just decison, not just sentiment.

Mr. Divine's picture

@SamB; Do you think he liked your comment?
And has he banned it?
So is your comment true?

Django's picture

Dan,

I don't see why the Department for Culture, Media and Sport should be excluded from the e-petitions. If both petitions accrue 100,000 signatures, then they should both be discussed.

Hopefully, all areas of government will attract comment from the public through the site.

Nemo's picture

Who could imagine wanting to try something new
and different, another way of engaging with voters.

Of course it's true, most of us are too dumb to understand that these lobby groups are out to control us and influence our vote. we're incapable of making our own rational decisions. How patronising.

I deeply disagree with capital punishment, and it seems so do most others, with a current 2:1 vote against it, by comparing the two votes.

I do think that epetitions are a bit tacky,, but I think any kind of effort to encourage people to participate in the politics of their country is very welcome. populist votes will attract more interest, but there is no reason you cannot submit a vote asking our politicians and ministers to do more face to face participation with us, the people.

Man in a Shed's picture

@1R4M - you'll find fascism is a left wing concept. They didn't call in National Socialism for thing you know.

All this article shows is how freedom of expression is an anathema to the left. You prefer telling people what they think and bullying us into submission, and then expecting us to thank you for being such wonderful leaders of the people.

Still having to listen to the people frightens you doesn't it ...

Dan Hodges's picture

Matthew,

"To bring an issue into the sphere and discourse of policy-makers".

Which the policy makers can then ignore, pat the public on the head and say, 'we've had a goo debate though'...

Dan Hodges's picture

Django,

Our politicians have more important issues to be dealing with than what channel shows F1.

That fact is not changed by the impressive response of the F1 lobby.

Luddite's picture

If MPs want to connect with voters, they should get out and engage with them' not hide behind a website. Isn't that rather dangerous asking the people what they want Dan? I'm all for pure democracy, but to give the people control doesn't that undermine what the left is all about. The elite knows best?

Dan Hodges's picture

Man in a Shed,

That's right.

As my responses demonstrate, I am terrified of listening to, and debating with, people like you...

Karl Hungus's picture

Must say I think 'King Alfred the Great Day' sounds like a good idea. We need an extra bank holiday around that time of year as well.

Matthew Thorpe's picture

Dan,

Yeah they will mostly likely ignore and go their own way, but whats wrong with listening to a few opinions? Would rather MPs (and public/media) at least approach it with an open mind.

Didn't the petition against pay-as-you-drive road taxes kill Labour's policy dead in the water? Politicians do and will listen eventually, so lets not dismiss an attempt to improve communication between the two.

Yonmei's picture

Obviously someone like Dan Hodges doesn't much like the idea that public opinion should count, or that voters should get to have some say into what matters to them: Dan made clear his contempt for ordinary voters in the No2AV campaign.

Django's picture

Dan,

Perhaps the answer here is to promote the e-petitions that you feel merit more attention.

That isn't too dissimilar to what you do as a journalist, is it?

mcquade's picture

"They didn't call in National Socialism for thing you know."

Man in a Shed, no they didn't, and most certainly not because it had anything to do with socialism otherwise they wouldn't have privatised all public services. You've been in that shed far too long and it's adled your brain.

j10sdtb's picture

"There was a time when politicians took the pulse of the public."

when?

Dan Hodges's picture

Yonmei,

That would be contempt for those voters who voted 'No' would it!

Daniele1's picture

For the "Man in the shed" and crutchbenders ignoramuses out there.
Once and for all:
Fascism: (Collins English dictionary)"political movement of Mussolini in Italy.Any RIGHT-WING nationalist ideology or movement fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism."
The name the Nazi party originally adopted :"national socialism" was to con and dupe and confuse morons like you. 50 years later, it is still working.
The Fascists in Italy and the Nazis in Germany, PERSECUTED and MURDERED lefties in case you didn't know. To talk about "the Fascist lefties" is not only idiotic, it is offensive.
Anyway what are you right-wing fanatic twats doing on this website??

Daniele1's picture

I agree with the article. This is no way to run a country. I want my government to lead not pander to the prejudices of vociferous ignorant minorities which is what you'll get with this gimmicky website.
This "News of the World" nation isn't about to reach the level of civilization required to achieve true direct democracy. Meanwhile the financial world is falling about our ears and Britain is going to debate the Death penalty!!??
It would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic!

Alex Baldwin's picture

If you were to accept that it was an exercise worth engaging in, the problem with the petitions at the moment is that one person writes them and everybody else silently endorses them. This means that a petition on an important issue can be let down by bad writing, and that they are only really worth writing for very broad issues (e.g. "Hanging. Yes or no?"). It'd be great to have some sort of collaborative system to create a petition, and then have it fixed after some review period for people to sign it.

Hugh Markey's picture

A lot of old timers are confused about e-petitioning. We gather there is not one word about the return of compulsory conscription. Yes, for females, too!
Affirmative, some people wriggled out of serving their country - Alan Clark, military historian and government minister was one, if we remember correctly. Admittedly, Clark has gone: but it has been reported in impeachable print. Others, still living, may have had good reason. Does this omerta, or dumb insolence, say something about the 'age' of these petitioners; or just their sensitivity? We have already started petitioning. Volunteers - one step forward! [ NEVER volunteer!]

Old Contemptibles

Chir0n's picture

@Daniele, Thanks for explaining that so that I didn't have to. Will you marry me?

Three questions for those people who are Pro the death penalty: 1.Would you be prepared to administer the Injection/flick the switch yourselves? 2.Do you seriously believe that our judiciary is so perfect that there are NEVER any miscarriages of justice or do you simply not care that innocent people might be executed? 3.Are you so devoid of imagination that you can't foresee the possibility of being on the wrong end of one of those miscarriages of justice yourselves?

John Holmes's picture

There are too many petitions about capital punishment which are not going to make any difference as the petitions against capital punishment have too much support.
But there are lots of other good petitions such as PRISON LABOUR check out http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2153

Nigel Woodcock's picture

there are currently 42 petitions calling for the reintroduction of capital punishment. What a lousy system that they can allow this level of duplication. The previous e-petitions site was far better. Why has it taken them 15 months to replace it with something so rubbish?

Nigel Woodcock's picture

Happily, this one calling for the resignation of David Cameron and a new general election has not been duplicated:
http://epetitions.direct.gov.u​k/petitions/10

Yonmei's picture

Dan: "That would be contempt for those voters who voted 'No' would it!"

No. That would be your contempt for *all* voters by your series of lying and stupid ads for the NoToAV campaign. You showed how much you despise us ordinary voters with that work.

Mr. Divine's picture

Please click on the link below to sign an e-petition calling for a ban on e-petitions.

Mr. Divine's picture

'Not a week goes by without another enraged mob parading down the streets of our fair land, nooses in hand, bellowing that all too familiar chant: "What do we want? Death by lethal injection! When do we want it? Now!"'

Brilliant.

Give them what they want especially if Yonmei is amongst them.

Stuart Eels's picture

I agree with you Gregg and despite Dan Hodges working himself up about it the people voting against the death penalty are a fair reflection of our country.

The petition site does need refining however to do away so many different petitions wanting the same thing or is this a cunning plan of call me Dave to ensure that 100,000 figures are never reached?

valleys girl's picture

Most MPs follow their own agenda rather than accurately reflecting their constituents wishes.How many people actually check out their MPs voting records on the things that concern them?
The media force feed us their own agendas round the clock.
I say don't be complacent and allow something to slip under the radar. Engage with it and at least see what happens.

Bratiaith's picture

Fascism was a right wing political movement. But the word fascism has come to mean "bullying elitism" to many of us. Stalin was just as much a Fascist as Mussolini in as much as they used very similar methods to bully and cajole the people into agreeing (or fearing to disagree) with them. Stalin probably killed more "lefties" than Musolini. The article is a bit over the top in it's call to ban e petitions but makes some good points about the "Tabloid push" towards certain subjects and the popularity of "fickle" petitions such as the formula 1 on the bbc one.

Mr. Divine's picture

@Stuart: I realise that the majority of people want the death penalty to be reintroduced, you amongst them. I saw a program recently about how a policeman basically said 'if you tell us you did it and name your accomplices you wont get the death penalty'. After psychological torture the guy confessed to something he didn't do and named people who also didn't do it... just so he wouldn't get the death penalty. There are prison governors in the States who are against the death penalty because they know innocent people have been executed.

Trust me, you wouldn't support the death penalty if you were up for something that you didn't do or a close friend of yours was.

People haven't thought through this enough.

richard's picture

the flaw here is that you are setting up a false choice.

scrap epetitions and go listen to the people instead?

there is no reason you cant do both of those.

plus, some of the people you would be out there engaging with are the same people who would be signing the petitions anyway.

plus, the epetitions system could be improved. there could be a petitions committee like in scotland and wales to assess them by merit rather than numbers.

or the system could bring together opposing views so that people interested in sigining one petition are educated about the other side of the argument.

or people signing petitions on, say, the nhs could be emailed information on how to support their local hospice.

there are no end of ways to make the system useful. you seem quite happy not to think about those however. which is a shame.

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