Cultural Capital

Reflections on books and the arts from the New Statesman culture desk

Günter Grass and the free speech moment

A travel ban is still censorship.

By Robert Sharp Published 13 April 2012 16:57

Silenced? Günter Grass Photo: Getty Images

Over the past few days, a "free speech moment" has been unfolding. These are the controversies where we get to discuss the first principles of free expression, and they usually begin when someone does something extremely offensive. Think of the public trolling of Anjem Choudry, or the English Defence League. Think of Liam Stacey, charged with a criminal offence for tweeting. Think of every controversial columnist, paid by the newspapers to be politically incorrect. These moments are frustrating, but at least campaigners like me are asked to make the case for free expression afresh, on sites such as this one.

This week, the "free speech moment" has had both an historical and international flavour. Günter Grass, the Nobel Prize Winning German author, angered the Israeli government after he wrote a poem about their militarism. Israel, incensed that a former conscript in the Waffen-SS should write such a criticism, responded by placing a travel ban on the author. In the most recent twist, Grass has escalated the controversy by likening the Israeli government’s actions to those of the East German Stasi.

There are two unresolved issues here. The first is whether a travel ban (declaring Grass a persona non grata, unwelcome should he wish to visit Israel again) is censorship. Clearly, such a move is less severe than the formal banning of Grass’s books; and many authors around the world (for example, in Iran, which was cited in the poem) suffer imprisonment for their transgressions. Nevertheless, placing this restriction on a person, purely because of what they have written, is a form of censorship.

It prevents any Israeli citizens who happen to agree with Grass’s poem (and I am sure there are many, from every religion) from inviting him to speak. It precludes the possibility that those in Israel who enjoy Günter Grass’s oeuvre would ever have the chance to meet him at a literary event. A voice is suppressed. Until recently, the UK Border Agency were in the habit of denying authors and artists entry to the UK because a gallery opening or a book tour was considered a form of "work". English PEN campaigned for reform of the system on the basis that freedom of expression also includes freedom of information, the right to hear dissenting voices. A travel restriction on an author denies this freedom, which makes it undemocratic.

Such bans also have a "chilling effect" on other writers – will authors who regularly visit Israel now self-censor, if they hold opinions that the Israeli government doesn’t want to hear?

The second issue is over Günter Grass’s actual words, including his latest ‘Stasi’ interjection? These "free speech moments" are frustrating because defending someone’s right to say something is usually equated with defending the content of what they say. Those whom the speaker has offended are always ready to conflate the two issues. We should remember that the oft-cited Tallenter quip on free speech (“I hate what you say, but defend to the death your right to say it”) also works perfectly well in reverse: I defend Günter Grass’s right to say things . . . but I hate what he says. The writer Kenan Malik goes further, and makes the point that if one vigorously defends free expression, one also has a moral duty to retort when people say unpleasant things.

I don’t think that Günter Grass is saying abhorrent things, though in my opinion he has been deeply insensitive. His last comment is clearly a doubling-down, and the result is polarising. His poem, despite taking on the form of introspection, has not persuaded anyone that was not already of his point-of-view. For such an accomplished writer, celebrated for his turn of phrase, this is a shame. The great power of poetry and prose is their ability to help the reader empathise with someone of a different culture or history. Personally, I think Grass is capable of this, and should have written a different poem. But to say this is an act of literary criticism, not a statement of the principles of free speech.

Robert Sharp is head of campaigns & communications at English PEN

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124 comments

Sat, 2012-11-03 08:18 — qzkqjrh (not verified)

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Mon, 2012-07-09 10:48 — miki1234 (not verified)

Old man know what to say sliding wardrobe doors

Mon, 2012-06-04 14:03 — Euan McArthur (not verified)

Yes, it is censorship and we should oppose it. But we cannot hold to this distinction between "form" and "content". At a minimum I can accept the content, or rather, in the ultimate scheme of things think it not unimportant but not critical, that Grass has said what he has. (Personally, I think there is certainly some truth to what he says). Banning people from saying "hateful" things is also clearly wrong, but because a) the content of what they say does not equate to any kind of force or undue influence over the offended subject b) at a level of exchange, I wish to be able to say things that are potentially "hateful" too. This is precisely a substantial defence. If we defend merely the "form" of free speech then this does open the door to allowing those rare cases where direct and intense provocation and incitement towards other criminal acts takes place, which we cannot. "Free speech" cannot be made absolutely acceptable in this sense, however much discomfort it causes to liberals who want a holistic, universalist approach.

Wed, 2012-06-06 19:40 — DuDochNicht (not verified)

You are correct, i must agree with you. The young are not ready to see us shew no constraint on this question. This must persist for now. i see that some of the young germans are angry at their government for forbidding words and gestures. If their understanding remains unimproved, then we will have failed. Here, this actually happened in the last three years in America and Germany:
G, a modern thirty something man, has a Jewish Stepfather. G has the idea that he will avenge his father, and looks for an enemy. G finds W, a very decrepit ex SS man. W's part in the hitlertime was something like being the Librarian for the Ahnenerbe. G speaks only English, and spends a few years befriending W. When G is ready, he goes to scholars and activists with his discovery, the very Devil's General, Living without Shame! G gets written up in the press. G gets fed into the daily news-cycle. G visits 97 year old W, who lives in a hospital bed on his ground floor now. G films himself betraying W as best he can, claiming to be the last of the great nazi hunters, and some agree with him. His pathetic effort to take advantage of people and G's claim that he was a hero for his Stepfather fell flat. The press, and scholars and activists ditch G, after broadcasting his video. In the video, i remember watching W's face fallen and damp now, crying out "you were my friend!" G's brief attempts to explain himself, before the American press silenced him, was to say "all along, I knew that the old bastard had a pistol nearby, I could have been shot for my effort!" Old W did not shoot, he only cried. G is still out there.

Fri, 2012-06-01 20:21 — DuDochNicht (not verified)

Long ago we failed in our effort to get K. Adenauer to go to Jerusalem and in bad English declaim "i am a Bagel!". More recently, to our shame, we failed to get Frau Merkel to go to Palestine and call out to the East "mister Netanyahu! Tear Down This Wall! Our collective goat-mind (kollektiven Ziege-Geist) greater for these lessons, discriminated the need to cancel the "german boat to Gaza!" plan of last year. We get wiser, even though we had the signs painted and everything...
Join us now in our greatest plot yet!
Herr Grass, enlisted into the Isreali Defence Forces Navy! Chippen Rost aus unseren Decks! Schleim! Nach unten...
{[;-)>

Fri, 2012-06-01 20:21 — DuDochNicht (not verified)

Thu, 2012-04-19 06:00 — Gerald Barnes (not verified)

The namecallers, parti pris ideological warriors, are enjoying Freedom of Screech on this thread. I hope a big wind defies a travel ban and carries their roars far far away.

Tue, 2012-04-17 10:28 — Armin ius. (not verified)

Zionists accept no criticism of their policies as witnessed by this ban. At a lower level the IDF has recently shown how it deals with criticism from unarmed civilian protestors:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2130538/Horrific-footage-shows-m...
Is this what the IDF means by "Purity of Arms"?

Wed, 2012-04-18 07:39 — Debbie M (not verified)

My Sweet Babe Armi

Your on TOP FORM as usual . These zionists are left on their knees when you come at them with your morality and knowledge.
And DON'T change the subject to Syria you zionists - who cares about the arabs dying there? 10,000 dead ? Hope its soon 100,000! SO WHAT? They deserve it - they are all pro-zionists and working for Israel against Assad - check their bank accounts !

I had another dream Armi and this time it was really HOT! You were wearing a bright blue kafiyah over a sort of brown 2nd World War uniform and were speaking to be in German (I know you can speak a bit of that language) and I was in a silk burka but it didn't stay on for long if you know what I mean...You made sweet love to me and as we relaxed afterwards you told me all about the jews you'd killed. You were kind of sad as you told me but said that difficult tasks required great courage.

Keep up the good work my lovely angel of truth.

All my love and devotion

Debbie
xxxxx

Wed, 2012-04-18 11:14 — Armin ius. (not verified)

Bereft of a sane argument the Zionist trolls revert to nonsense. Ho hum.

Wed, 2012-04-18 21:03 — Debbie M (not verified)

Oh Armi don't tease me, but I know what you really mean and I feel the same way. Your clearly a really sensitive guy but there's no neeed to be shy - let the love in and you'll be filled with love. Everyone here knows your telling the truth and I know you can't write what you really feel about me any more than you about what you really think about the jews - but I KNOW and I understand. And I'm sure Cath Heseltine at MPAC (whose really nice - but you know that already) is really proud of your work and dare I say it, maybe mine too??

D
xxxxxxxxxx

Wed, 2012-04-18 00:02 — Maximillian (not verified)

Arminius you fucked up little Nazi, you complain about democratic Israel denying entry to a former Waffen SS Nazi whose views on Jews are similar to your own - perhaps you'd endorse a visit by anti-Islamists to Tehran or your very own apartheid Pakistan to tell the enslaved people there what a scumbag, medieval, savage murderous terrorist state they live in?
Perhaps you might also like to post some comment on the fact that most islamoNazi states from Saudi Arabia to Egypt to morocco to Indonesia view the practicing of Christianity blasphemous and punishable by death.
Boy, how these racist Islamist vermin get on my nerves!

Wed, 2012-04-18 00:22 — Armin ius (not verified)

Toot, toot......went the trumpet.....

Tue, 2012-04-17 20:41 — JJJ (not verified)

Islamofascist Arminius: Your mate Assad kills journalists and you get worked up about this. Why don't you stick to commenting on Human Rights abuses in Syria and the rest of the Islamic world.

Tue, 2012-04-17 20:54 — Armin ius (not verified)

Zionazi JJJ - "Why don't you stick to commenting on Human Rights abuses in Syria and the rest of the Islamic world" - Because the article is about Israel and its ban on Gunter Grass you bozo. I am beginning to wonder at the wisdom of your carer allowing you access to the internet.

Wed, 2012-04-18 21:20 — JJJ (not verified)

Fascist boy, you could read an article about penguins in Antartica and somehow link it to Israel.

By the way, I see you have an admirer. Stop fantasising about non-existent barmaids in Karachi and respond to the lady. You never know, she may be just as exciting as Sylvia Stolz.

Wed, 2012-04-18 22:54 — Armin ius (not verified)

You have all the maturity of a three year old with this idiotic trolling. So who exactly pissed in your brain? Do you dress up when you post as your alter ego?

Wed, 2012-04-18 00:08 — Maximillian (not verified)

Arminius you scumbag hitlerite/Islamist you don't set the agenda on what people comment about. ( unless of course you are in reality the islamofascist Mehdi 'non-Moslems live like animals' Hasan. ) The NS under Hasan's malign influence pollute this site with lies about the only democracy in the godforsaken middle east. He refuses to allow anything critical of Islamic states each of which have grotesque human rights records, stone women to death, hang Gays and are worthy of insight which Hasan censors.

Wed, 2012-04-18 00:25 — Armin ius (not verified)

Full moon tonight?

Tue, 2012-04-17 22:11 — JJJ (not verified)

Be careful Armin ius, you don't want your Debbie M to return to haunt you, do you now? Heh heh.

Tue, 2012-04-17 23:06 — Armin ius (not verified)

Trolls come and they go then they change ID.

Tue, 2012-04-17 23:57 — Jimmytrue (not verified)

Are you the same one, I know from old? Spartan?

Tue, 2012-04-17 06:58 — rain (not verified)

There is a massive assault on free speech the likes of which we have rarely seen; it goes by the name of political correctness. The hypocrisy of the political-left is breathtaking. We have entered an Orwellian world where views on issues from immigration to abortion and marriage views held by large swaths of the electorate – opposing viewpoints or different perspectives, aren’t to be debated or refuted, but are simply to be denounced and called “hate speech” all must be silenced and kept from even having an audience. The political-left when confronted with alterative points of view always show their illiberal tendencies, many on the political-Left view their ideological opponents in different terms. Opponents are not just wrong but evil. And evil views have no place in a civil society. Seeing conspiracies around every corner, they prefer silencing dissent to answering it.

Tue, 2012-04-17 05:40 — Henrik (not verified)

Günter Grass is without doubt unreasonable in his poem. What he makes is hideous; he suggests that Israel wants to annihilate Iran (auslöschen), Grass has been silent until now due to his ancestry (Herkunft) the notes of history (Fußnoten) will be left after Israeli strike, is borrowed from a Jewish speech about the Crystal night, and when Grass is speaking about the critics afterwards he mentioned monopolising (Gleichschaltung) the opinion. It is Israel who is planning the holocaust, Grass is the victim. He describes the critics against himself with the same words as the Nazi invented 1933 to control their opponents. The victims are the perpetrators, and the perpetrator's words now describe the victims. New Statement has made their statement, everything is clarified. Left is the new right.

Fri, 2012-06-01 19:30 — DuDochNicht (not verified)

G. Grass was willing to serve in the Kriegsmarine, as did many boys, people here (America) do not know how heroic the crews were, how great was their stature in a teenager's eyes. Now hitler is gone, and we all know what happened back then. If the Jews are now caught in a political corner, and desperate enough to man an atombomb carrying U Boat, the only honor available to Herr Grass would be to offer to serve in this new Israeli Flotilla. I am not really joking, he knows who Großadmiral Dönitz obeyed, yet now is afraid of Israel... We need to be bigger than in the past, the World needs us. Neue Heimat.

Tue, 2012-04-17 01:47 — Gideon Polya

The defamatory Israeli Government attack on this anti-racist, humanitarian, Nobel Prize-winning German poet refers to the fact that Günter Grass was conscripted into the Nazi Waffen SS in late 1944 as a 17 year old teenager - indeed he thus had a status as a “CHILD SOLDIER” that is decried by the Neocon American and Zionist Imperialist (NAZIs) in relation to Uganda and used as an excuse for the newly expanding US War on Women and Children in Africa but is now used to “blame the victim” in the defamation of Günter Grass by genocidal, war criminal and grossly child-abusing Israelis.

Here are some basic statistics on MORE appalling Apartheid Israeli CHILD ABUSE: post-invasion under-5 year old infant deaths in the Occupied Palestinian Territories total 0.2 million; according UNICEF about 3,000 Occupied Palestinian under-5 year old infants die avoidably each year through Israeli-imposed deprivation; 800,000 Palestinian children are highly abusively and indefinitely confined to what the Catholic Church has described as the Gaza Concentration Camp, without charge or trial but for the asserted “crime” of being Indigenous Palestinians living in a part of their homeland inhabited continuously by their forebears for thousands of years to the very dawn of agrarian civilization; 10% of Gaza children are stunted from Israeli-imposed deprivation according to Jewish British Labor MP David Milliband; and Occupied Palestinian children, like their parents, have effectively no human rights under Israeli military rule and are subject to imprisonment and torture (see “Palestinian Genocide”: https://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/ ).

According to Save the Children, an international non-governmental organization that promotes children’s rights: since 2000, the Israeli military has detained more than 8,000 Palestinian children in the occupied West Bank and prosecuted children as young as 12 in military courts for rock-throwing and 98% of Palestinian children imprisoned by Israeli regime are exposed to physical or verbal violence during detention and with most of them suffering from post traumatic stress disorder after their release. According to data collected by the Palestinian rights group Defense for Children International, 2,301 children were taken into custody by Apartheid Israel in 2011, with presently 170 Palestinian minors in Israeli jails (see “Palestinian children traumatized by Israeli jails: Report”, Occupied Palestine, 14 March 2012: http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/palestinian-children-t... ).

Back in the Middle Ages in England Jews were hounded with the false canard that the Jews “drank the blood of Christian children”. Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (1246 – 27 August 1255) was an English boy, whose death prompted a blood libel against the Jews which enabled arrest of 90 Jews, the hanging of 18 and the confiscation of their property by a mercilessly greedy King Henry III. In 1290 King Edward I issued an edict expelling all Jews from England (they were only permitted to return in 1656 under Oliver Cromwell, the Lord Protector of England from 1653-1658) (see “Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Saint_Hugh_of_Lincoln and “Edict of expulsion”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion ). Today in the 21st century, race-based Apartheid Israel is involved in the mass imprisonment, torture, malnutrition and active and passive killing of Palestinian children and indeed leads the world in illegal trade in human body parts (see “Israel world’s largest trafficker of human body parts”, The Palestine Chronicle, 29 August 2011: http://paltelegraph.com/palestine/west-bank/9998-israel-worlds-largest-t... ). Eminent anthropologist Professor Nancy Scheper-Hughes (University of California Berkeley) exposed the horrendous illegal trade in human organs based in Apartheid Israel (see “Nancy Scheper –Hughes”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Scheper-Hughes ).

Fri, 2012-04-27 07:07 — Red Beats By Dr. Dre Studio (not verified)

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Wed, 2012-04-18 00:11 — Maximillian (not verified)

Gideon Polya you are a fucked up lunatic neo-nazi anti-Semitic scumbag. I'm glad that no decent university employs you. You ought to be caged or deported to islamoNazi Iran where vermin like you belong.

Wed, 2012-04-18 11:32 — Attrition47

Liar.

Tue, 2012-04-17 16:11 — EDDIE CARTER (not verified)

WOW! So many lies and hatred about Israel! Let's face being anti-Israel is a code name for being anti-semitic - it's just more politically correct.
I teach English at Ariel University where we have over 700 Arab students on the campus. We have courses for working adults[even 40+ and with children]. In my present class there are 3 Arab ladies who are nurses in our hospitals and one work side by side as well as learn side ny side with Jewish nurses. One can see the camaradie and feel it - they bring Arab dishes for all the class, especially on after their holydays [they are allowed to be absent from class. One Arab nurse told me that on Fridays [their rest day] she teaches driving! In some Arab countries a woman could be beaten for driving.
In my hometown of Holon heart specialists of world renown who specialize in treating children accept kids from Gaza and other Arab states like Iraq.

Moslem Arab boys don't serve in the army or participate in community services so they come to university at 18 and graduate ahead of their fello citizens.
By the way, the israeli army comprises of Jews, Druze,, Cherkasim, Beduin and volunteer Christian Arabs.
I live in a five room flat and very happy - perhaps someone should visit the new Beduin villages in the Negev and see for themselves the beautiful houses - not to mention the houses in central israel - seeing is believing.
maybe this journal and the writer should more concern themselves with human rights in Syria,Iran China North Kprea and other salubrious locations

Wed, 2012-04-18 11:38 — Attrition47

Liar.

Wed, 2012-04-18 04:26 — anna-marina (not verified)

You asked for this:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/04/uprooting-30000-bedouin-in-israel/

"Uprooting 30,000 Bedouin in Israel"
by NEVE GORDON
Beer-Sheva, Israel.
“It is not every day that a government decides to relocate almost half a per cent of its population in a programme of forced urbanisation..."

Tue, 2012-04-17 00:26 — Julia Harris

Amazing how this is the main article on the NS website...fuking amazing.

With all the killing going on in Syria the New Statesman should be utterly ashamed they have not written anything for months covering the current slaughter, the people, the regime. Instead they focus on an obscure story that can be spun the demonize Israel, what wankers, what a disgrace to human rights, only one story really matters to the left...Hate Israel at every opportunity.

Does this tell the story??? http://www.newstatesman.com/subjects/Syria

Where is the outrage from the left??? - No Jews Involved???

Tue, 2012-04-17 12:50 — Armin ius. (not verified)

You seem to be amazed that the NS website does not follow your agenda. Too bad. This is hardly an "obscure story" as it has been front page news in both Israel and Germany for some time. What seems to be upsetting you most is that it shows up the Zionist cesspit for what it is.
in reality you do not give a monkey's chuff about what is happening in Syria since you despise Muslims simply because they are Muslims.

Wed, 2012-04-18 00:13 — Maximillian (not verified)

how many women have you stoned to death Arminius you Islamist primitive?

Wed, 2012-04-18 11:26 — Armin ius. (not verified)

Not a one Max the Zhid. How about you? Greased any Arabs recently?

Tue, 2012-04-17 13:26 — Julia Harris

It is an obscure story and its has been spun.

What it shows is that you are a racist Jew hating wanker and who make's up lies about me or others to suit your ignorant narrative.

I have never called for any person to be hurt or vilified and I do not promote violence against anyone.

You cant handle the fact that Syria and the other middle east regime's are showing there colours, these are the same wicked regimes that have demonized Israel and wanted to destroy it and make no mistakke The PLO and Hamas are of a similar ilk.

You and your kind are Jealous of Israel's success and strength - bottom line.

Tue, 2012-04-17 14:44 — Armin ius. (not verified)

It would be an obscure story if it was buried on page 29 of Die Welt but it has been headline news in Germany for some time. If it has been blown up in any way it is because of the idiotic reaction of the fascist government in occupied Jerusalem.
True to form you show yourself to be a foul mouthed beeatch in defence of a regime which is as evil as those that surround it.
As for being jealous of Israel's success, I live in a country with a higher standard of living than that poxy sandpit and one which does not receive the benefit of billions of dollars from the USA to prop it up. Bottom line.

Wed, 2012-04-18 00:17 — Maximillian (not verified)

'fascist government in occupied Jerusalem' what a deluded little nazi you are Arminius. It must be surprising to you how each and every liberal democracy in the world from the US, Canada, across Europe to Australia support liberal democratic Israel, whereas your very own scum bag apartheid Pakistan is supported by no liberal-democracy and is the recipient of food handouts because it's illegal racist regime can't run an economy that can feed its own miserable population

Wed, 2012-04-18 01:07 — Armin ius (not verified)

You must be a genius being able to operate a computer and type this tripe with your arms strapped being you in that "special" jacket. Good job you have rubber wallpaper to bang your head off.

Tue, 2012-04-17 00:37 — Tusant (not verified)

The reason why this stupid poem is the lead story in the NS and the genocide in Syria isn't is because the political editor of the NS is an Islamist called Mehdi Hasan ('non-Moslems live like animals''). he is a strong supporter of the islamofascist regime in Iran which is allied to the murderous Syrian tyranny.
Much better to report on some former member of the WaffenSS being denied entry to a nation he swore to exterminate, than reporting on the killing of thousands of Moslems by a Moslem tyranny.

Tue, 2012-04-17 14:49 — Armin ius. (not verified)

Tusant - "some former member of the WaffenSS being denied entry to a nation he swore to exterminate" - So when did Grass swear to exterminate this nation which did not exist until 1948? Maybe you should leave the posts to other Zionazis with brains bigger than a grape.

Tue, 2012-04-17 00:59 — Julia Harris

Quite right.

I got Mehdi running scared, he's blocked me from viewing his Twitter feed, LOL, how weak, I just use another account to see it Mehdi...DOH!

Tue, 2012-04-17 16:42 — R Harris (not verified)

In the Hasbara department for which you work, do you not have an editor who checks your spelling and grammar ya ukhti? If you are going to attempt to scribble anti-Mehdi, anti-Arab and anti-Moslem invective, you could at least do it in something approaching educated English.

Tue, 2012-04-17 17:53 — Julia Harris

Cant wait for the day when the Jihadi's have no more need for the left and spit them out, turn against them as they will surely do.

You are so petrified of me, the truth is a bitter pill to swallow. That is the reason why you are spending so much time trying to discredit me without saying anything of any substance.

Say what you like, your patronizing and condescending little quips are meaningless, I know my ideals are better than yours and we can see through you.

Tue, 2012-04-17 19:18 — Armin ius (not verified)

Who could possibly be petrified of a half wit. Nobody his to discredit you since you are quite capable of doing so yourself with your apologist posts for the rogue state that is Israel.
You have the ideals of the average EDL bonehead nothing more.

Tue, 2012-04-17 21:33 — Julia Harris

Israel is a shining example of a country and people who have been persecuted by Islamic hate long before and after the state existed. It knows it enemy and what they are after and has controlled the viscous hate filled Muslim Arab world around it, hooray. We also know people like you want to see it destroyed as you are jealous of it and are an Antisemite, clearly.

Say what you want about me but the Zionist and Jews of the world will never be silenced by the likes of you for spreading the inconvenient truth because it doesn't fit with your Islamic lefty wing agenda.

Any violence and hate from the EDL is comparability microscopic in relation to the specter of Islamic hate, violence and human rights abuses.

Tue, 2012-04-17 21:59 — Armin ius (not verified)

Yes, definitely the mentality of an EDL bonehead.
Israel has nothing to learn from anyone about violence and hate; Jewish terrorists murdered British soldiers, civilians and Arabs without pity and this tradition of ruthless barbarity has continued to this day. It is no coincidence that Netanyahu leads the same party that was once lead by Menachim Begin, a terrorist killer responsible for many atrocities. Shining example bollocks.
Personally I don't give a damn about Israel and these other Middle East cesspits so long as they do not drag the rest of the world into another war and keep there nasty habits confined to their own borders. Unfortunately they have too many useful idiots outwith those borders.

Wed, 2012-04-18 00:14 — Julia Harris

And your definitely a racist anti-Semite, your talking aload of shit really, Israel has needed to do what it needs to do to exist and survive. The Arabs kill for religious regions - Jihad.

Since 1948, 10 million Muslims have died at the hands of fellow Muslims
Where is the outrage over that? Double standards abound. As the Israeli envoy Dan Gillerman said in 2008: "When Christians kill Muslims, it's the Crusades. When Jews kill Muslims it's murder, and when Muslims kill Muslims, it's like talking about the weather. Nobody really cares about it."

And as the late Samuel P. Huntington observed: "Wherever one looks along the perimeter of Islam, Muslims have problems living peaceably with their neighbors. The question naturally rises as to whether this pattern of the late 20th century conflict between Muslim and non-Muslim groups is equally true of relations between groups from other civilizations. In fact, it is not. Muslims make up 1/5 of the world's population but in the 1990s they have been far more involved in intergroup violence than the people of any other civilization....Islam's borders are bloody, and so are its innards."

Wed, 2012-04-18 01:04 — Armin ius (not verified)

"when Muslims kill Muslims, it's like talking about the weather. Nobody really cares about it." - least of all you. You are really only an apologist for Zionist terror and all the abuse, cut and paste quotes and concern for murdered Muslims is just so much chutzpah. The only question I would ask is are you EDL or BNP?