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Labour must find its faith

Roy Hattersley

Published 15 May 2008

One of the most damaging illusions of the "Third Way" has been that you can devise policies which disadvantage no one, argues the Labour ex-deputy leader

All that can be said, in consolation, is that we know why Labour is so unpopular. A swath of policies has offended or alienated all but the hard core of the party's support. And the sum of general resentment is greater than its parts. Nobody now knows what the government stands for - whose side it is on. By attempting to be all things to all voters, it seems to have lost both its moral compass and its nerve. The problems that Gordon Brown was expected to rectify have intensified.

That does not mean he is incapable of putting them right. Indeed, Brown remains the politician most likely to set out a clear picture of the future that Labour wants to create. But he has to demonstrate his conviction as well as his com petence - quickly. Re-establishing the government's moral authority will not be easy. But it is possible. If the Prime Minister fails in that endeavour, the government is doomed.

No doubt ministers console themselves with the thought that some causes of government unpopularity are not their fault. That is true. But they must take responsibility for the inadequacy of their response. The crisis in the United States "sub-prime" lending market was the product of greed and stupidity. Mortgage salesmen earned their bonuses by arranging high-interest loans for families with low credit ratings - expecting that, if their customers defaulted on repayments, the capital would be recovered by repossession of the properties.

It may be that Northern Rock's collapse was the result of ineptitude rather than a willingness to exploit working families. But, like his American counterparts, the company's chief executive has been rewarded for his failure - in his case with a £750,000 severance payment. Social democrats ought to be saying there is a more efficient as well as a more socially responsible way to run the housing market. Yet the government has not offered a word of criticism. Imagine how Margaret Thatcher would have reacted if a trade union had caused an equivalent catastrophe.

It was necessary to rescue the ailing bank - both to protect mortgage holders and to prevent the crisis from spreading. But the way in which it was done implied sympathy as well as support. The Labour leadership appears to identify with the financial sector of the economy and to apologise for its mistakes - at a time when the general public is growing ever more impatient with its inadequate performance and social irresponsibility. I have nothing in common with the deposed directors of Northern Rock other than a mutual inability to run a successful bank. But I have not lost faith in social democracy. Too many men and women at, or near, the top of the Labour Party have. As a result, the government lacks a vision of a better society and - almost as damaging - ministers fail to take the fight to the enemy.

Taking sides has been politically unfashionable for years. Labour as a party of principle has disappeared into the soggy centre ground. No sane social democrat wants a lurch to the left. But the voters expect something better than a promise to revise refuse collection charges and the meaningless apologies that so excite weak-minded journalists.

Many of the people who deserted Labour on 1 May, because of the abolition of the 10p tax rate, had benefited from the cut in the standard rate that it financed. But they thought that penalising the poor was wrong. Labour - which has to appeal to something better than self-interest - should not be afraid to espouse the cause of the least well-off. Margaret Thatcher taught us the importance of bold belief. Politicians who are uncompromising in their convictions attract admiration, even from people with very different opinions. There are dangers in drawing up battle lines. But they are not so great as the hazards of ideological neutrality.

Ten years ago it may have been necessary for new Labour to emphasise its breach with the past. No more neutralism. No more nationali sation for nationalisation's sake. No more talk of withdrawing from the European Union. Some of us were against the 1983 manifesto in 1983, when many of the supporters of "the project" were enthusiastically endor sing it. But the battle for moderation was won long ago. Tragically, the belief that social democracy is more than a collection of benign but philosophically unconnected initiatives was one of the casualties of the war. The shortcomings of the Blairite "project" were almost always the result of either rejection or ignorance of basic social democratic philosophy. Equality of opportunity was regarded as the ultimate social goal because the pursuit of real equality was thought to amount to imposing uniformity. Liberty was defined as the right to enjoy all the benefits of a free society, rather than the ability to make the choices that freedom provides.

Most damaging of all was the sentimental heresy that informed the whole "Third Way" - a belief that it is possible to devise policies which help everybody and disadvantage no one. Gordon Brown knows better. He is the man who said: "Best when we are Labour." He must put that precept into practice.

Winter of Discontent

The decline of faith began a long time ago. The 1976 IMF crisis was interpreted by some members of the beleaguered cabinet as proof that increasingly influential international finance would never underwrite a government of the left. Fear that a bankers' veto would always frustrate progressive policies grew as the global market evolved from aspiration into reality.

The Winter of Discontent of 1978-79 added dis illusion to despair. Men and women who had been brought up to believe that the trades unions were a major force for social justice had to watch hospitals - picketed by porters - turning away outpatients and caretakers turning off the heating in schools where examinations were about to be held.

The 1979 election began years of anguish in the Labour Party during which moderate social democracy was crushed between a mindless left-wing extremism and the growing conviction that Thatcher was right to believe that Britain's salvation lay in ruthless individualism. Then Tony Blair won the 1997 general election on policies that amounted to a compassionate version of the Thatcher prescription. Even convinced social democrats began to believe that electoral expediency required them to proceed with caution. Those who retained beliefs that Labour's left had once dismissed as "revisionist" were treated as if the ideas of R H Tawney and Tony Crosland were as unacceptable as the doctrine of Leon Trotsky.

Some social democratic ends can be achieved by non-social democratic means. Gordon Brown did more to alleviate poverty than any chancellor since Lloyd George. But the gap between the rich and poor has not narrowed. By some calculations it has widened. It was the director of the independent Office for National Statistics, not a Labour minister, who said that reducing inequality is the mark of a civilised society. That goal cannot be achieved by a government that feels it has to propitiate the gods of self-interest by attempting to match Tory reductions on inheritance tax, when conscience must have made clear that there were better ways to spend the money. Neurosis about Labour's past - real and imaginary - is prejudicing the government's future.

It was necessary to wipe the slate clean of some of the slogans that became policy in the days when Labour governments nationalised the shipbuilding and aerospace industries, and thought it possible to subsidise unprofitable companies into viability. There is no sensible argument in favour of returning to the Labour policies of some past and half-forgotten age. Change is essential. But the tragedy for Labour - which may result in its downfall - is the assumption that the change is incompatible with its core beliefs. Governments retain office only if they feel and look confident about the future.

Profit and progress

Social democracy is about much more than economic organisation. To be successful in the pursuit of its abiding objectives, Labour has to have a distinctive position on markets and ownership. Markets are an essential feature of a free society as well as a successful economy. But they are not always the best way of allocating resources.

During his first week as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, James Purnell said that it was important for the government to be "neutral" between alternative forms of enterprise - public, private and social. He was right. However, he did not accurately represent the posi-tion of the government, which has worked on the assumption that private is always better than public.

Profit is indeed one of the engines of progress and prosperity, but not the only one. Much of what a social democratic government wants to achieve relies on men and women who, by the nature of their employment, cannot receive share options, golden handshakes and giant loyalty bonuses. Unless it inspires them with a vision of the good society that it wants to create, many of its most important policies will fail. To convince the non-commercial sector of its crucial importance, ministers must demonstrate that they are not in thrall to every high-income earner. Does the government really contemplate introducing vouchers which enable the well-to-do to buy places in superior care homes while the poor, unable to afford top-up payments, have to accept deteriorating minimum standards?

The Blairites always claimed that only their policy of accommodating private industry's demands could win elections. If it were ever true, it is not true now. The voting public has grown impatient with entrepreneurs who have no concern for the public good. They may not remember that it was Thatcher's Big Bang that deregulated the financial services market and allowed building societies to become banks and, in consequence, make shareholders rather than mortgage holders their first concern. Yet they know something is wrong with a system that allows directors who have ignored the interests of consumers and employees to receive huge bonuses. That is not how competition is supposed to work.

It should require penalties for failure as well as rewards for success. Too much of the British economy has insulated itself against the consequences of its inadequacy. Yet the government neither denounces nor curtails such conduct.

The financial sector's vulgar excesses provide a vivid illustration of why greater intervention is a political imperative as well as an economic necessity and moral obligation. The tabloid newspapers and the television news prove how popular it would be. Stories of rising fuel prices are prefaced with details of oil-company profits. Giant corporations are excoriated for not doing enough to protect the environment. Multinationals are exposed for paying below-subsistence wages in the developing world.

Commentators speculate about the investi gations by the Office of Fair Trading into alleged price-fixing by the supermarkets. The general public may not know that the Financial Services Authority is to mount a new assault on "insider dealing", but they have read that Lord Stevenson of Coddenham, the chairman of HBOS, told his shareholders: "We've jolly well got to stop bad people doing the modern-day equivalent of bank robbery." Labour ministers - even if only in the cause of their own survival - should be saying much the same.

They often seem to be saying something quite different. The Prime Minister ought to take John Hutton, Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, aside and tell him everything that is wrong with his view that we need still more millionaires. There is no reason to believe that the very wealthy automatically contribute to the success of the economy. Only the handful of social myopics still claims that, because of the "trickle-down effect", increased wealth at the top of the income scale results in a higher standard of living at the bottom.

A nation in which the gap between rich and poor widens rather than narrows lacks the social cohesion that brings civil peace as well as commercial prosperity. And - the criticism that will hurt Hutton most - admiration for the rich, and for wealth in itself, is last year's shibboleth. It is no longer in fashion with thinking people.

Hutton, it must be said, was not guilty of the worst assault on Labour's essential image. That accolade goes to Caroline Flint, the recently appointed housing minister, for speculating about tenants who refuse to move from welfare to work being evicted from their council property. Nobody is going to put a downtrodden woman and her disadvantaged children on to the street because her husband is work-shy.

So, everybody who read of the suggestion concluded that either Flint was desperate to read her name in the papers or the government wanted to give the impression that it was "tough on scroungers". Such misguided attempts at news management make the government look divided and confused. And they undermine the prospect of Brown achieving the only reputation that can carry him, and his party, to victory. He has to forget the sketch-writers' cheap sniping and be himself - not anyone's creation.

Gordon Brown is a puritan with compassion and conviction. That is the man he must be seen to be: a man with faith in himself and faith in social democracy. As someone once said, there is no alternative.

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19 comments from readers

antileft
15 May 2008 at 14:42

"The Labour leadership appears to identify with the financial sector of the economy and to apologise for its mistakes - at a time when the general public is growing ever more impatient with its inadequate performance and social irresponsibility."

What on earth makes you think that's the case?! The country isnt looking to the left- it's looking to the right! They want LOWER taxes- and more efficient public services! That much is clear from election results as well as opinion polls. Surely you must be able to see that the mood in the country is that the government has too much control, meddles too much, and is too expensive? Theyve clearly expanded too much, as Labour governments always do. That's the problem, and the people can see it! Youve got it the wrong way round!

"Gordon Brown did more to alleviate poverty than any chancellor since Lloyd George. But the gap between the rich and poor has not narrowed."

Dont you mean "the gap between the rich and poor has not narrowed, but Gordon Brown did more to alleviate poverty than any chancellor since Lloyd George"?!

Because that's the point, isnt it?! Who cares if the rich are richer? Who cares if some people are so rich and content that they live in paradise? The number of rich is not the problem! The problem is the number of poor, which, if it's going down, you should be happy! That there are more rich too is a good thing, and the truth of the matter is that the british people understand this, which is why you and your "old labour" types are disappearing from the political spectrum. Good riddance!

ldopas
16 May 2008 at 17:53

Brilliant post antileft. You said it!

I also would like to ask Roy, why he castigates energy companies for making profits while prices go up, which is an issue. But singularly forgets to look at the revolting amount of tax levied on fuel and energy by the government to fill its coffers.

Heck at least the energy companies have to dig it out, get it to the consumer and do all the admin. the government do didly squat, except rake the money in by the cartload. why dont they start by cutting duties, that would help the poor.

writeon
16 May 2008 at 20:37

Strange, in a bygone age, Roy Hattersley was pereceived by most people, as I'm sure he'd agree, as being on the 'rightwing' of the Labour Party, now, when the entire political caste has moved substantially to the right, Hattersley seems like a leftwing firebrand shouting in the wilderness!

What I find somewhat odd is that whilst the politicians have dragged the 'centre' to the right, to the extent that it's virtually impossible to see substantive differences between the three leading parties, so real choice no longer really exists; in contrast to this lurch; when I talk to ordinary people, and I talk to a lot of them, there is massive dissatisfaction with the direction the country has taken over the last few decades. Usually they complain that all the parties are the same and there is no one worth voting for, which I suppose explains the dismal turnout at elections in Britiain.

What we seem to have nutured is an increasingly illigitimate version of democracy with declining popular support for our democratic institutions.

Hattersley is correct to focus on the negative consequences of vast and entrentched inequality in society. What this represents is not just the growth of the number of rich people, which certain economic primitavists would have us believe is 'good' and an indication of the success of our system; what this explosion of inequality in Britain really illustrates is the explosion of enormous differences in wealth and power in society which has far more serious consequences than 'richness'.

What one creates is, in reality, two or more parallel societies, where the ruling elite effectively live in another world to most people. A world of comfort and plenty and enormous influence and power over our political system, disproportionate power and influence of a huge scale. The lifestyles of the rich don't just exist in a social vacuum, they are not 'neutral', they reflect real and substantial differences in the power structure of society.

What's been created is a society that is debased and warped. A society where privilege is cast in stone. The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate. This kind of society is also inherently unstable, as the hundreds of ordinary people I talk to on my tours are deeply resentful of the grotesque inequalities they see all around them.

I'm not advocating an attempt to impose absolute equality on society by force, only that the creation of a society with such enormous and growing inequality is really a sick society, a society at war with itself, a dysfunctional society, a broken society, and that has profound implications, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually.

antileft
17 May 2008 at 05:20

"What I find somewhat odd is that whilst the politicians have dragged the 'centre' to the right, to the extent that it's virtually impossible to see substantive differences between the three leading parties, so real choice no longer really exists"

The reason for this, writeon, is because a clear consensus has been reached. The people of britain dont want state interferance anymore. They've made a the decision. This is a good thing- the country doesnt need to lurch from one extreme to the next, it can sit comfortably in the middle. It's a more mature system. It's a more stable system.

"in contrast to this lurch; when I talk to ordinary people, and I talk to a lot of them, there is massive dissatisfaction with the direction the country has taken over the last few decades."

Maybe you should get more intellectual friends? Ill ask you this again, writeon, as youre never quite able to answer this question.

If, as you say, everyone is sick of the way the country is going, why doesnt a party- any party- make the most of this to become more electable by moving to the left? The liberals are desperate to be elected- why dont they try going to the left? And if brown wants to win the next election, why doesnt he go to the left? Why did labour only win when they went to the right? Hmm I wonder why youre never able to answer this question...

taghioff.info
17 May 2008 at 10:06

The problem is very stark: Increasing differences in wealth, stemming from political movement in the late 1970s in America to limit "excessive democracy", have also translated into worsening social mobility.

The liberalisation of society has led to a weakening of the institutions that underpin social mobility, hence hence the worsening situation. This is one of the main reasons why inequality matters to the poor.

antileft
17 May 2008 at 11:06

"A world of comfort and plenty and enormous influence and power over our political system, disproportionate power and influence of a huge scale."

"The liberalisation of society has led to a weakening of the institutions that underpin social mobility"

What youre both saying is that an increasing number of rich people, in some unspecified way, has a negative effect on state institutions. Right? Surely, the solution is not to make the rich poorer, but to stengthen those institutions. Isnt it? That would seem to make a lot more sense to me. After all, there's nothing inherantly wrong with rich people. If some of those are able to buy influence over the democratic system, then it's the democratic system that needs to be strengthened. After all, making the richest 50 percent poor isnt going to stop those institutions from being buyable, it isnt going to stop corruption, and it isnt going to plug the holes in the system. Youre both looking in the wrong place.

swatantra nandanwar
17 May 2008 at 13:48

The art of politics these days is to please most of the people most of the time; so dogma ,of the Right or the Left ,can be chucked straight out of the window right now; lets have Labour concentrating on the Third Way, otherwise we'll be consigning ourselves to opposition for a decade.

writeon
18 May 2008 at 19:35

Personally I don't like the quasi religious use of the word 'faith' in relation to the Labour Party. I've never been that enamoured with the Social Demorcratic project, which I've always felt was about trying to make the best out of a bad deal. It was pragmatic and compromise seeking to an extreme degree, if that isn't a contradiciton in terms, extreme compromise!?

I think the New Labour project is finished. Blair must be glad he's out of it, rich and secure for the rest of his life. Brown is like a stable boy, the horse has bolted and he's left with a shovel and huge pile of steaming manure, one almost feels sorry for the poor sap!

The era of plenty is over. The Capitalist market system he thought had moved beyond boom 'n' bust is about to enter the biggest crisis ever, which won't end. This leaves 'compromise' political movements in a dilemma. Brown has been riding a ' boom' based on a financial bubble that's now burst, poof! The windfall of the oil revenues from the North Sea have also vanished, that 'family silver' can't be pawned again, so what's to do?

Brown is just plain unlucky, he's lost the ' mandate of heaven' and is simply not up to the job. He is a follower, not a leader, and what's terrible is the rest of the current crop of New Labour 'leaders' are just as bad, if not worse than he is. They have no ideological balast to help them through the hard times we'ere heading for. What's frightening is that they really seem to believe that Capitalism works, and there is no alternative! All one can do is soften the worst effects of the 'free market' but one cannot challange the underlying structure, that is set in stone.

antileft
19 May 2008 at 03:29

Oh what a load of posturing fluff. Honestly, you use apocalyptic terms but say nothing.

"I think the New Labour project is finished."

It's not "finished" at all. After the tories crushed labour time and again, Labour combined tory ideas with social consciousness labour ideas and a lot of fluff and called it "new labour". The tories have just done the same thing- theyre now combining "new labour" ideas plus fluff with old tory policies. New Labour isnt "finished". The public is simply deciding that they prefer how the tories do it. Honestly, you couldnt get more Blair than Cameron. Hes more Blair than Blair is.

"The era of plenty is over."

Again- retorical crap that doesnt mean anything. You complain that you believed there would be no more boom and bust and now youre disappointed. Well, Id bet most people didnt believe there would be no more bust! 10 years of growth are now leading to a recession- and there is no surprise there. It isnt "over". Its continuing along its usual capitalist path. After the recession will be an expansion, followed by another recession.

There's no need to use the same apocalyptic terms that everyone always uses during recessions- no one's impressed.

"What's frightening is that they really seem to believe that Capitalism works, and there is no alternative!"

And the alternative is...? What are you suggesting writeon? This is the least bad system- if you have a better idea Id love to hear it.

Tony Walton
19 May 2008 at 14:20

Roy Chatterley (that’s not a typo, it’s spellcheck, and I love it) bemoans Labour’s disappearance “into the soggy centre ground”; but in his very next breath admonishes any thought of “a lurch to the left”. Don’t ask me what the solution to this conundrum might be, but two things strike me. One is that, as with everything else, politics in this country has gradually embraced the American model where, as Gore Vidal has established, there are two parties of the right, no third party, and ‘liberal’ is a dirty word, synonymous with ‘commie’.

The other is that, as Blair imitated Thatcher, and Cameron now imitates Blair, there is already insufficient middle ground for them all to sink into. And I say hoorah: it’s the heat-death meltdown of party politics, neatly accompanying the heat-death meltdown of capitalism. The answer, of course - to stick to the earthy metaphors - is real grass-roots democracy and a new Common Wealth of co-operative politics driven by local collectives, from which regional and national assemblies derive their only legitimacy. Such a polity would, inevitably, be republican (small ‘r’, obviously).

Anyone who is in Hay-on-Wye on Friday 30th May will have the opportunity to hear me busk my poetic manifesto to this effect, and to buy a copy of the pamphlet for a very reasonable 30p - always provided they can tear themselves away from the overblown publishers’ sales-fest down in the marquee’d village in a field a mile out of town, to walk the actual streets of Hay, where Real Life will be joyously on parade, come rain or shine. (If it’s really raining, you might find us in the café by the main car-park at the top of town, or The Rose & Crown on Broad Street, towards the Wye bridge.)

In one specific especially (now that the commercial is over), Lord Chatterley is evidently deaf & blind to an important source of popular resentment. Inheritance tax. Soak the rich, by all means, (though we’ll have to feed them to the dogs eventually) but realise that everybody who can tries to amass something to hand on to their children when they die, and indeed before that, ’helping out’ from time to time. It’s not Thatcherite selfishness to do so; far from it: it’s the gristle of the society that she refused to recognise. And it’s the reason why Gordon can try to appease the Daily Mail readership till he’s so red in the face he explodes, and will fail miserably. Not that inheritance tax matters much, now your capital assets will all be stripped to fund your last few decades being pumped with overpriced pharmaceuticals in some godawful ‘care’ home.

As for Roy’s quite unnecessary contribution to the massed choirs singing “Just Be Yourself” to Gordon Brown, I would have thought it perfectly obvious that (a) he’s had a year now, and he’s not a stupid man, so you all keep telling us; and (b) he is being himself already, incapable of being other. A thoroughly competent Chancellor (on a record-length lucky streak) without the first notion or slightest aptitude for being our Sun-in-Splendour.

Cameron will be an equally feeble premier. Millipede? Purnell?? (god-help-us) likewise. Clegg can’t even get it up as LibDem leader. How long before the next Iron Lady, the next Self-Righteous Smoothie? And which option is any better, I ask you in all seriousness. No more leaders, please. A ceremonial figure-head president with a human heart and a sense of humour (Tony Benn, were he younger; Humph, were he still alive; Matthew Parris would be popular with the old ladies; Jeremy Hardy would be my choice) will suffice. We can lead ourselves - and it’s past high time we did.

See you in Hay.

TONY WALTON

antileft
19 May 2008 at 15:10

"See you in Hay."

No you wont. Im not paying even your 30p price tag for your 1960s hippie tripe. Your "collective" silliness is a childish fantasy. You put me in a collective and Ill take it easy while you do all the work. There's no way I, or most of the other people in this world, will work just "to be nice". And it's not poetic either- it's a just dumb fantasy.

writeon
19 May 2008 at 23:06

Personally I think there is a mounting body of 'evidence' that the boom centuries of Capitalism are coming to an end, this current 'financial crisis', combined with the environmental crisis, the energy crisis, the problems we are having with rocketing food prices, and the inexorable rise in population, seem to indicate that the wheels are coming off the wagon of the economic and social paradigm we've followed for so long, though in reality it's only been the twinkling of an eye compared to human history.

What kind of system will replace Capitalism, which in it's current crazed form is clearly doomed? If we are lucky, and we are a fortunate race, maybe we'll not see a mad and bloody series of wars, as the rival Capitalist 'empires' fight over what's left of the world's raw materials like cats in a sinking sack. But, unfortunately, I doubt it. We are heading for much more war. The country that swallows the lion's share of the world's resources, the United States, is going to be sending it's legions everywhere, grabbing and controlling everything it can, because as Dick Cheney said, the American way of life is non-negotiable.

I expect the next war for oil to break out quite soon and in the Middle East. Iran is in the way and sets a bad example of a country that insists on maintaining its independence and defying the will of the American empire and thwarting its plans for the region. Iran must be taught a lesson and punished as an example to others who might want to push their independence and sovereignty too far.

After Iran, knocking off Syria and crushing what's left of the Palesinian resistance should be relatively easy. Then the Empire will bash Venezuela and the rest of South America into line. Ultimately China and Russia are in the cross-hairs and could do with some regime change.

And all the while, British 'politics' is concerned with the great issues of the day so important for our future.

Tony Walton
19 May 2008 at 23:54

Poor old Antileft, who no doubt haunts many other sites to spray his negative bile around. Happily, the Internet exists to absorb his time & poison so there's perhaps not too much left for his unfortunate neighbours out there in the Real World. Writeon is, of course, broadly right about the way the World's heading, but the funny thing is plenty of people feel as I do: deeply pissed off with disempowerment and more ready than any time in the last 40 years to do something about it, if only to improve their own lives and those of their community - which, if Antileft were to get outside more often, he might find even in his own vicinity.

Now, most folks still think some kind of New Politician can provide All The Answers - hence the Obama bandwagon. (Don't sneer, have we forgotten the Blair bandwagon already, and the ludicrous False Dawn of 1997 that so many believed in.) National politicians, and Gordon is the paradigm, just don't have the balls to do what really needs doing. In fact, he's too scared to even admit to any of the few good things he's done: OK, they screwed up on the Working Family Tax Credit and had to claim it all back again, but it was a nicely unexpected windfall while it lasted.

(I digress.) Brown is with us as a Dire Warning to abandon the party political cat-fight bandwagon before it gets any later, and to seize whatever means of Survival we can locally establish. James Lovelock makes it all perfectly clear, so don't let's wait another 40 years to find out if he's right (again). There's stuff stirring out here in the sticks that Antileft couldn't conjure in his horridest nightmares, and sorry, chum, 'hippie' is as it always was a badge of honour and true political consciousness ~ and now is the perfect moment for it all to come round again.

Good news indeed that he won't be in Hay, but what makes him think he was even invited? Anybody else is welcome also to check in at the Presteigne Assembly Rooms on the Fourth of July for some extremely good music the biz ain't got its hands on yet - and some seriously polemical poetry about everything that's wrong with America. I suppose Antileft will now inform us that poetry never changed anything. Well, something must have, and it surely couldn't have been his sour 'n selfish cynicism.

It IS to be reached.

TONY WALTON

antileft
20 May 2008 at 03:36

Oh writeon, you wimp!

"What kind of system will replace Capitalism, which in it's current crazed form is clearly doomed?"

That's not what I asked you, and you know it!

Here's what you wrote:

"What's frightening is that they really seem to believe that Capitalism works, and there is no alternative!"

And here's what I wrote:

"And the alternative is...?"

I didnt ask you "what do you think will happen"- I asked you "what is your alternative to capitalism"! Youre not talking about war here! You gutless wonder- you cant even admit to your beliefs, can you? Admit it- youre just an old fashioned commie like the idiot above, arent you? You speak like you really have something to say, and it's new, and it's exciting, but like the idiot above, youre little more than an old fashioned commie, repeating the same old crap which everyone got bored of in the 60s and no one cares about anymore. Hell, at least the loser above is prepared to admit that he's 50 years behind. Why cant you? Go on, admit it, you wimp. Answer my question:

What is the alternative to capitalism which you talked about here?:

"What's frightening is that they really seem to believe that Capitalism works, and there is no alternative!"

Oh, and TONY WALTON- I bet you dont have a serious job and you still live with your parents. Am I right? I thought so. When youve actually worked and been successful, it's hard to believe in co-operatives. Why? Because everyone works different amounts, and most people that work hard are not prepared to do so for the same (or similar) reward as someone who cant be bothered. It's a tough fact of life. Serious people who work hard want to rise above those who cant be bothered. If you dont allow them to reach their financial potential, theyll go somewhere else. And no amount of pathetic childish poetry is going to change that. You should watch Obama by the way- neither of you actually say anything.

antileft
20 May 2008 at 03:37

"It IS to be reached."

What a load of tripe. It's as though you really wish you had something exciting to say, but dont. What is to be reached? Nevermind, what's important is the feeling. Nice one, obama.

Tony Walton
20 May 2008 at 22:40

Life's too short and busy to engage Antileft blow for blow but I must tell him (a) I'm happily married with three teenage stepchildren, and (b) I work as a residential support worker with (mostly teenage) children in care. What, we wonder, does Antileft do with the odd minutes he's not on the Internet until 3

or even 5 in the morning?

Get a life, matey.

TONY WALTON

antileft
21 May 2008 at 04:24

Im online between 3 and 5 in the morning because I work in japan online as a graphic designer. No, it wouldnt work as a co-operative, unlike your public sector job. Which might explain why you have such silly old-fashioned commie ideas that dont work in the real world. Good luck getting jobs that actually produce things, done by real people, to work as co-operatives. That'll be the day!

Now tell me- what "is to be reached"? You didnt explain it, did you? It was just BS retoric designed to make you sound more exciting and intelligent than you actually are.

Ill say one thing for obama- Youre both full of meaningless retoric- but at least he sells his books for more than 30p. I bet he doesnt have to resort to flogging them on website forums either.

ldopas
21 May 2008 at 13:45

antileft, Im going to give you some advice, because I completely agree with all you have said. That advice is to not let the bilge these people here spew out get to you.

Old Tony works in the public sector. So to him it doesnt matter how much work he does in comparison to the person next to him. Because his trough is constantly full from all the taxes we poor sods in private industry pay. Yes, THAT evil baby eating private industry.

No matter that we have to work till we are 70, and he can retire at 55. Probably on the grounds of "stress"...yeah right. No matter that he never has to worry about getting his pay packet, because its always there and if short, just put up your taxes again. Hoorah. No matter that he is in a ludicrous final salary pension scheme that is unaffordable in the real world we live in. It is affordable for him..just.put up council tax, again. Hoorah. (sic)

What this does for him, and the other goon posting here, is it allows them to construct ridiculous fantasy economic alternatives tired and failed decades ago.

You put it very eloguently. But they aint getting it. And it is in the crasy theories, they are forgetting human nature and aspiration. And when that breaks down, I presume their nirvana wll be backed up by state oppression. The usual weapon of choice to stop people who want to excel or be different.

I would love one of them, as you have said, to stop spouting those meaningless phrases and/or crapping on capitalism. And actually SAY what system you want in place. Any chance of that y'think?

antileft
21 May 2008 at 15:19

"What this does for him, and the other goon posting here, is it allows them to construct ridiculous fantasy economic alternatives tired and failed decades ago."

You hit the nail on the head, right there.

"I would love one of them, as you have said, to stop spouting those meaningless phrases and/or crapping on capitalism. And actually SAY what system you want in place. Any chance of that y'think?"

Id love to hear this too. Writeon? Tony "somethingorather will be done" Walton?

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