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''Jesus will appear again as judge of the world and the dead will be raised''

Sholto Byrnes

Published 10 April 2008

Tom Wright's literal belief in the Resurrection makes him a hero to conservative Christians worldwide. Here he declares war on militant atheists and liberals, and explains why heaven is not the end of the world

In a memorable episode of the television series Yes, Prime Minister, the PM, Jim Hacker, is presented with a choice of two candidates for a vacant bishopric. When the cabinet secretary, Sir Humphrey Appleby, mentions the first, Hacker expresses outrage. "But he doesn't even believe in God!" he says. "Yes, Prime Minister," replies Sir Humphrey smoothly, "but he doesn't have anything against him."

At the time of transmission, in 1986, the joke worked well. The Anglican hierarchy seemed to be staffed by well-intentioned liberals in a permanent state of anguished bafflement about what they believed. Miracles? No, they're optional. Difficulties with accepting the Virgin Birth? Well, you don't have to accept it literally, of course. Not sure about God? Doubts are nothing to be ashamed of, do come in.

While papal diktats - on every subject from contraception to liberation theology - streamed like thunderbolts from John Paul II's Vatican, the Church of England appeared reluctant to take a firm line on any issue. The then archbishop of Can terbury, Robert Runcie, was talked of as a man who nailed his colours firmly to the fence when faced with controversy, while his bishop of Durham, David Jenkins, was widely thought to be symptomatic of everything woolly and wrong in the Church after it was reported that he had compared the Resurrection to "a conjuring trick with bones". (In fact, he said it was much more than that, but the inaccuracy stuck.)

No one could accuse Jenkins's distant successor Tom Wright of laxity in matters of dogma. The current Bishop of Durham, fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England (after Canterbury, York and London), is also its leading evangelical theologian. Time magazine recently described him as "one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought" and "a hero to conservative Christians worldwide". He has also just written a book, Surprised by Hope, in which he spells out a view many will find extraordinary.

It is not just that, as an evangelical, he believes forcefully in the authority of scripture and the historical truth of the Gos pels. Nor is it that, like most on that conservative wing of the Church, he is strongly opposed to gay priests. The Right Reverend Wright believes in the literal truth of the Resurrection.

The day will come, he says, when Christ will come to join the heavens and the earth in a new creation and the dead will rise. All those who think of heaven as the endpoint are wrong, especially if they're thinking about "sitting on clouds playing harps". According to him, heaven is less a location, more a state: a kind of first-class transit lounge whereby our physical bodies sleep while the "real person" continues in the presence of Christ. What we will be waiting for is what he calls "life after life after death": the Second Coming and the Day of Judgement, when we will be not only physically re-embodied but transformed, on a new version of this earth with plenty of room for everyone.

There are no metaphors involved here, no decoding, no poetics to be interpreted. Wright's line, which will be news to a huge number of Christians as well as way beyond the realms of credibility to non-believers, is to be taken entirely at face value. If this man is a hero to millions of conservative Christians, then belief is certainly back.

"It is actually what the New Testament is about," says Wright in his emollient, Radio 4-friendly tones as we sit in the spring sun outside his cottage in Alnmouth, Northumberland, a family refuge away from the grandeur of his official residence, Auckland Castle. "An awful lot of western Christians have just accepted that when they say 'the resurrection of the body' they think, 'You don't really mean body. That's just the way they put it in olden days.' They don't realise it is actually the key thing. We are talking about a good physical world which is to be remade, not a bad physical world which is going to be trashed in favour of a purely spiritual sphere."

Hijacking heaven

Before I travel to meet Bishop Tom (his preferred form of address), a senior lay Catholic says to me, "He is mad, you know." But there's nothing wild-eyed about the tall figure clad in cords and comfy jumper and waiting for me at the station - although the open-top, electric blue MG two-seater is pretty flash for a prelate. His even conversation and donnish attire almost lull one into not taking in how radical and literal his message is.

Wright argues that, over the centuries, the influence of Greek culture and philosophy, in particular the theory of Platonic dualism - that the body is imperfect and destined to decay, whereas the soul is superior and continues after death - led to the language of heaven being "hijacked". He mentions a cathedral near Rome where there are frescoes "quite explicitly about resurrection, skeletons coming up from the earth, being clothed with flesh and becoming human again. Contrast that with the Sistine Chapel, where you have this great heaven and hell scene. It is sort of assumed that heaven is a disembodied state where immortal souls go to live, and then it becomes very difficult for the word resurrection to be anything other than a rather flowery metaphor for that state. But the whole point is that is what the Bible in the first three or four Christian centuries took for granted. We need to recapture that."

Another recapturing has been that of the Church of England itself. If Wright's views come across as hardline, explicit and specific, verging on the fundamentalist, that is because of the gulf between his straightforward expression of belief and the kindly muddle of the old liberals who dominated for so long. "I remember talking to my godfather, who was an archdeacon near the Tyne," says Wright, "and he said it was his judgement that a lot of the clergy that he knew in the Sixties and Seventies did have a personal conversion experience which they had misinterpreted as a call to the ministry. They didn't really know what to do, so there was a sort of embarrassment: 'Are we allowed to talk about God? Do we know who God is?'" Also at that time, "The Trinity, the Incarnation - much of that was under serious question and challenge. People said these were just silly old 5th-century ways of talking about God."

And now? "That's largely gone. I think anyone who ends up in almost any senior position in the Church now probably has not only a pretty robust personal belief in God but also a sense of why this matters. Of course there are large debates, but not about whether we do or don't believe in God."

That this is the case is largely due to the rise of the evangelicals, who decided to work wholeheartedly within the Church, rather than act as a sect, at the first National Evangelical Anglican Congress at Keele in 1967. Committed, doctrinally clear and organised, the evangelicals gained influence as that of the Anglo-Catholics declined, especially after the ordination of women priests led many to leave the Church (notably the former bishop of London Graham Leonard, who became a Roman Catholic priest), while the liberals' lack of certainty made it difficult for them to rally. Evangelicals now make up about one-third of active Church membership and 40 per cent of financial contributions, although the strength of their voice makes them sound as though they count for even more.

A year and a half ago a group of evangelical leaders threatened the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, with a revolt unless he created a parallel structure so their churches could bypass the authority of liberal bishops. The rebels included the pugnacious Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali, but not Tom Wright. He condemned their demands as "arrogant and self-serving", "unbiblical" and "a covenant with chaos". Wright's put-down was shocking in its firmness and in effect ended the rebellion. His commitment to the unity of the Church over that of the evangelical cause may have lost him some support, but he remains their towering intellectual, and that, combined with his position in Church hierarchy and the fact that he has the ear of Rowan Williams (the two are old friends, as both taught at Oxford in the late Eighties), makes him a commanding figure for this growing band of tough new believers within the Church of England.

Wright has deep family roots in the Durham area, which from the 14th to the mid-19th century was ruled by the prince-bishops; in medieval times they had the right to mint their own coins and raise armies. Today's incumbent may not have wanted to fight this last battle, but there are plenty for which he is ready. One, in particular, will have evangelicals itching to draw swords. "The massive denial of reality by the cheap and cheerful universalism of western liberalism has a lot to answer for," he thunders in his new book. "The nihilism to which secularism has given birth leaves many with no reason for living." The bishop would like to see nothing less than an end to the Enlightenment split between religion and politics.

"There is a Christian view of politics," he says after lunch at a fish restaurant by the coast, "and whether or not the government knows it, it has a God-given duty to bring wise order and to facilitate human flourishing." The Church does not just have a right to comment on whether ministers are failing in their divine task, he argues. "To try to shut us up, to say, 'You keep off the patch'" is "totalitarian". So, no apologies for his Easter Sunday sermon on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, in which he criticised the government for "pushing through, hard and fast, legislation that comes from a militantly atheist and secularist lobby" whose aims are a "1984-style world" where "we create our own utopia by our own efforts, particularly our science and technology".

"Using what is in effect live human tissue for experimental purposes is not a frontier we think people ought to cross," he says, "and we're going to go on saying that. The more of these moral frontiers a government crosses, the more it owes to citizens to make a space for conscience, not just in voting but in how scientists and doctors carry this work out. To think that the Church should not be involved in politics is to say: 'Here are some areas of crucial concern for human flourishing, but the Church is not allowed to address these matters of public debate.' I think that's ridiculous."

Turbulent priests

It is primarily those on the political liberal left who have expressed outrage at the words of Bishop Wright and Cardinal Keith O'Brien. But there have been times when the self-same people gladly welcomed priests wading into turbulent political waters - when, for instance, David Jenkins incurred the wrath of Margaret Thatcher for supporting the striking miners: an action, it may surprise some to hear, that Wright describes as "exemplary. That's exactly what a bishop ought to be doing." But the paradox of evangelicalism is that the conservative stance on doctrine and scripture is accompanied by an apparently left-wing emphasis on social justice.

When we continue to talk about the Eighties and I suggest the left-wing view of Margaret Thatcher's policies was not just that they were wrong, but that they were immoral, he cuts in. "They were wicked. Yup." He goes on: "A lot of people didn't realise that you could perfectly easily put a Christian wash over the top of the ideologies Thatcher was buying in to, to make it look nice. But in fact they were every bit as atheist a way of constructing the world as those of overt Soviet sympathisers and communists who were out to wreck society. So critical Christian faculties needed to be brought to bear."

All this talk of religion's place in politics is a direct consequence of the beliefs Wright sets out in his new book. "Jesus's Resurrection summons us to dangerous and difficult tasks on earth," he writes. Christians must build for the new kingdom of heaven and earth. "Every act of gratitude and kindness; every work of art or music inspired by love of God; every act of care and nurture . . . will find its way into the new creation."

One task is to do justice in the world. Wright identifies global debt as "the dirty enormous scandal of glitzy, glossy western capitalism" that must be corrected. To those who think that "taking the Bible seriously meant being conservative politically as well as theologically", he says: "The truth is very different." The Resurrection "creates a programme for change. Those who believe the gospel have no choice but to follow."

Given the example of Tony Blair, I ask him if it won't be hard for any future prime minister to be so openly religious. "Public discourse needs to catch up with the fact," he sighs, "that doing God in public is not about someone kneeling down and saying their prayers, and God saying, 'Go and bomb Iraq.'"

Shortly afterwards we're back on the road to the station. Wright's belief in the Resurrection also provides an injunction to be green; it is this earth, after all, that is going to be remade. "If it is true that the whole world is now God's holy land, we must not rest as long as that land is spoiled and defaced," he writes. "This is not an 'extra' to the Church's mission. It is central." Central, but not too specific; which is just as well, I reflect, as we hare down country lanes in the MG, overtaking laggards and bracing bends in a manner that can't be contributing much to the new creation. But who knows? Bishop Tom hopes there'll be room for Bach after the Second Coming. Perhaps they can fit an electric blue MG in, too.

the CV

1 December 1948 Born Morpeth, Northumberland

1962-73 Educated at Sedbergh School, Cumbria; then Exeter College and Wycliffe Hall, Oxford

1971 Marries Margaret Fiske; they have two sons and two daughters

1978 Publishes Small Faith, Great God, first of more than 40 books

1978 Fellow and chaplain, Downing College, Cambridge

1981 Assistant professor of New Testament studies, McGill University, Montreal

1986 Lecturer in theology, Oxford ; fellow and chaplain, Worcester College

1994 Dean of Lichfield

2000 Appointed Canon Theologian, Westminster Abbey

2003 Named Lord Bishop of Durham; says Blair and Bush acted like "white vigilantes" over Iraq

2004 Member of Lambeth Commission which took strong line against homosexuality

Research by Simon Rudd

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58 comments from readers

Ray Ingles
10 April 2008 at 17:15

It's a hilarious double-standard that you actually have to pick up a gun and kill somebody to be considered a 'militant' believer, but all you have to do to be considered a 'militant' atheist is write a book.

Jenny Webb
10 April 2008 at 17:43

Ah the literalists who presumably believe that we should put anyone to death who works on a Sunday (Exodus 35:2) - does that include the Bishop. Wear garments of mixed thread and you could also get into trouble. It also says in the Bible (Lev. 21:20) that you may not approach the altar of God if you have defect in your sight. I hope Tom follows this wholly reasonable directive too!

Ron McKeown
10 April 2008 at 18:20

It is understandable that Bishop Tom, being a believer, has certain beliefs about atheists. Because of his beliefs he is not able to grasp that an atheist is without belief – of any kind. Because atheists have no belief system they are also without a social system to support it. There are no atheist organisations, (I do not recognise humanists as true atheists), no atheist churches at which to gather and no atheist inspired political organisations. Politics, like religion, is a belief system hence the advice, “Never argue politics or religion”. So the article is wrong when it refers to, “a militantly atheist and secularist lobby" whose aims are a "1984-style world" where "we create our own utopia by our own efforts, particularly our science and technology". A militant atheist is a conflict of descriptions. You cannot be militant about something which you do not consider exists in the first place. It follows therefore that the other comment about atheists is also a conflict of terms. The article says, “Thatcher was buying in to, to make it look nice. But in fact they were every bit as atheist a way of constructing the world as those of overt Soviet sympathisers and communists who were out to wreck society”. Communism is a political belief and not related to atheism at all.

Also, atheists do not seek to impose their views on other people because what other people believe is totally irrelevant to an atheist. To an atheist the main problem is the religiously inspired laws that we have to suffer and the hatred and violence that follows in the wake of the religious and/or political fundamentalists that seek to force their manic beliefs on everyone else.

Douglas Chalmers
10 April 2008 at 19:02

The Christian church in Western countries still has no real idea about "the soul" any more than it has about Jesus who certainly wasn't desecended from any of the current crop of Russian and European immigrant Jews who have invaded and occupied the fake state of Israel over the past 60 years. And that isn't being "anti-Semetic" because the Semites are actually the Arabs - thus Palestine and Lebanon are the true birthplace of Christianity, if not of Jesus, and that makes it essentially a West ASIAN religion and ideology just as Islam is.

What does that mean? Well, the last thing that the puppet-state priests of ancient Israel and the Roman occupiers wanted was someone preaching peace, FREEDOM and the concept of individual personal Enlightenement. No wonder they got rid of Jesus but his path was to spread the wisdom that was then sweeping the East (India and China). That was the teachings of Buddha and, if Jesus didn't come from East or South Asia, he certainly must have went there in his youth to learn. Nothing could have possibly been acquired from the bone-headed Jews in what was a comparatively primitive culture then.

Sad that the reverend Tom Wright (the British Jeremiah Wright?) thus expects Jesus to come back, still largely unwanted, to be some pathetic kind of judge, jury and executioner on behalf of the mental and spiritual decrepit weaklings of the Christian church of the West. No wonder they keep earning bad karma for themselves with ever more Crusades. The invasion and occupation of Iraq IS a Western "crusade" just as the wanton idoelogical and financial support of the Israeli regime and their ethnic cleansing of Arabs AND Christians and their agenda of regional expansionism is.

In the end, it will be Islam, not Christianity which will flourish as it is a religion which is based on a concept of self-sacrifice whilst Christians in the West have seduced themselves with a philosophy of self-serving and blinkered blindness. But the "immaculate birth" of Jesus was a way of explaining to the ignorant savages of the time how an enlightened soul incarnated. It would be interesting to postulate the real rationale behind the story of the ressurection which is largely symbolic and not accepted by the other Abrahamic religions anyway.

Carl Jones
10 April 2008 at 19:38

If the Christian right are becoming more militant, what monsters will they produce to better Blair and Bush?

outsider
10 April 2008 at 22:02

Like Bishop Tom Wright, I am also a Christian; I do not subscribe to many of his beliefs, but this is not the time or place for me go into the differences.

It is welcome that he find's Margaret Thatcher's policies 'evil', and there seems to be a little pop at Bliar re 'God saying 'Go and bomb Iraq'', but it's not good enough. Instead of basing his Easter Sunday sermon on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, it should have been on two illegal wars and occupations (since Iraq was invaded, over 1,100,000 people have been reportedly killed); the poisoning of Iraq with Depleted Uranium for 4 1/2 billion years; the rape, torture, cruel and inhumane imprisonment of tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent ppeople, guilty of being Iraqi, Afghani, Muslim or just in the wrong place at the wrong time; 'Extraordinary Rendition', Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Diego Garcia and countless 'Ghost Houses'; and last but not least, 'Bearing False Witness Against Their Neighbours' for the Blood Libel that Muslims were guilty of the 9/11 atrocities.

If he really believes it was 'Osama wot dunnit', I will happily dispute this issue with him, in public or in private. I'm sure the NS will put us in touch if the good Bishop wishes.

Rather than belting around the countryside in a flash sports car, it would be better if he donned sackcloth and ashes, and joined Brian Haw in Parliament Square; I'm sure Brian would welcome him, and loan him his bullhorn. Or if that's too onerous (and I wouldn't fancy it myself), at least he should use all his considerable influence to get the message out that these practices are just plain evil, Satanic (or as a certain Brotherhood would prefer, Luciferian) and should be denounced up hill and down dale.

Before the good Bishop says another word about Human Fertilisation and Embryology, he should watch the video, 'Beyond Treason' , on the effects of DU (available to view on the net).

JL
10 April 2008 at 23:19

I too maintain a very literal view of Christ's death and resurrection but I strongly believe that the evangelical church's treatment of gay and transgendered people has been an absolute disgrace. It really is a case of 'strain out a gnat and swallow a camel'.

Evangelicals and others who continually obsess over homosexuality and target it as being 'worse' than other sins are clearly going beyond the Bible's remit. Romans 3.23 for example says 'that there is no difference for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god'. This is not a justification of homosexuality, of course, but it does indicate that to treat gays as somehow 'more sinful' than others is against the plain teaching of the Bible.

As in so many things, evangelicals adopt a position that reflects their preexisting socio-political conservatism rather than nuancing their arguments in line with textual imperatives. I personally am opposed to the ordination of (practising) homosexual ministers but it still remains that the CofE, and in particular its sex-obsessed evangelical wing, has not acted in a compassionate, reasonable and reflective manner towards gay people. To deny full Christian fellowship to repentant gay people is itself an evil as great as any homosexual activity.

As for the Keele Conference of 1967. It should also be noted that at that event, in a disgraceful breach of protocol, the CofE minister, Revd Dr John Stott refused to allow Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones to speak fully on the subject of separation from compromised denominations. Anybody with an ounce of intelligence will realise that the CofE has never been truly evangelical in its history and it remains even now 'but halfly reformed', as the Puritans had it.

It is doubtful whether any Christian remaining within that institution, flawed as it is in discipline and in its relationship with the state, can truly be considered evangelical. For him to be a truer witness to Christ, therefore, the Bishop should consider withdrawing from a state organisation that for centuries has been a hive of liberal complacency and that has frequently stifled the great works of revival, as it did in the time of Wesley and Whitefield.

michaelpetek
10 April 2008 at 23:24

Ron McKeown says there are no such things as atheist organisations.

In point of fact there are. They're called Communist Parties.

Paddy Patterson
11 April 2008 at 07:27

Why does this magazine give space to persons who are so mentally unstable as to believe in "God"?

Grahame Priest
11 April 2008 at 08:55

Religion is big business. Its currency is power and franchises all over the globe compete for slices of it, looking for points of differentiation. Religions cannot even agree on a name for God, and if the devil is truly in the detail, they play the devil's game fighting and dissenting over every point of contention available. Religious people assert their individual perspective based on their favourite flavours selected from a menu of ambiguous ancient texts, and without regard for the suffering caused. There is nothing admirable in this man's stance because his 'truths' are based on nothing more substantial than his dogged belief in his own blind faith and self-informed prejudices.

That there's an assumption this is somehow to be respected, and an equally daft assumption made that any religious person speaks with moral certainty, leaves me cold. I'd no more use contentious and often contradictory texts written 2 millennia ago as my personal moral map, than I'd use a satnav system so out of date it was developed before roads were even invented! Why do we ascribe the moral high-ground to people of 'faith', when 'faith' has done nothing more than cause dissent, schism and bloodshed for the last couple of thousand years? Is it a default position we've been trained into, or some residual kind of tribal respect for the shamen of our various cultures?

The Christian church was founded by a misogynist and we only shook free from those bonds thanks to the enlightenment. In fact, listen to a few evangelicals ranting on and we'd realise that if we put power back into their hands they would do nothing other than abuse it. There are other cultures, ones that identify strongly with specific religions which haven't even started to address issues of rights, equality and freedom. Religious persecution is a demonstrably evil thing that blights the lives of millions with everything it can use from the malicious use of psychological guilt to brutally killing people. And let's not forget religious / cultural conflict thrown in for good measure.

I can just about accept peoples' right to believe what they want when I suck my acceptance through my teeth. I do this because I'm somehow accepting people have a right to be delusional if they choose. The trouble is, put a few of them together and they'll reinforce their delusions collectively. Add a few more people and they'll assert them as a truth. Even more people, and they'll impose them on others and fight amongst themselves over correct interpretations. When a whole country or culture ends up sharing the same 'beliefs', they'll gladly kill for them and have no problem convincing themselves they're morally justified in doing so. Holding the views I do, helps me put the issue of whether the story of the resurrection should be interpreted literally, into some sort of perspective. We'll either be reborn – or we won't. Blindly convincing ourselves that we will, and then arguing about it, won't change that truth one jot.

ted harvey
11 April 2008 at 10:52

Far be it for non-believers like me to say such things but it’s instructive that Sholto Byrnes quotes ‘a senior lay Catholic’ as saying of Tom Wright "He is mad, you know." But, maybe that explains his outpourings of unblinking and fundamentalist religious stuff that coheres with superstition.

Also instructive are the other instances of how co-religionists relate (or do not relate) to each other, for example Tom Wright ‘condemning’ the demands what Sholto Byrnes describes the ‘pugnacious Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali’, as "arrogant and self-serving", "unbiblical" and "a covenant with chaos".

It is therefore risible when a short bit later we read of Tom Wright railing that for Government Ministers "To try to shut us up, to say, 'You keep off the patch'" is "totalitarian". So, Bishop Tom Wright ,neither Christian humility or tolerance, nor practice-what-you- preach is to be applied to the likes of you then?

And Wright is just wrong on Tony Blair when he ‘sighs’ (poor chap) that “Public discourse needs to catch up with the fact that doing God in public is not about someone kneeling down and saying their prayers, and God saying, 'Go and bomb Iraq.'" Duh… but Tom that’s what Blair, in effect, told us on his media platform… it wasn’t some entity called 'public discourse' that said it and that ‘needs to catch up’.

For affluent and status conscious media junkies who derive their living from religion like Tom Wright to pontificate about global debt as "the dirty enormous scandal of glitzy, glossy western capitalism" is just plain cant and offensive.

Of course Sholto Byrnes is no stranger to such unblinking and fundamentalist religious stuff. It’s sad that this is to be reflected in a once intellectually respectable journal like the ‘New Statesman’. He writes unsubstantiated and unjustified polemics when he asserts “It is primarily those on the political liberal left who have expressed outrage at the words of Bishop Wright and Cardinal Keith O'Brien.” This is utter rubbish and indeed the reality is almost the reverse. The primitive and arrogant rants of O’Brien in particular were met with an across-the-board negative reaction from all sorts of people, backgrounds and perspectives – ranging from the faintly embarrassed (as expressed by some Roman Catholics in Scotland) all the way through to outright revulsion.

The sane and considered postings above of decent, thinking and tolerant Christians like JL and outsider are reminders that the rest of us have to get on with living together in respect and tolerance and to work things out in rational ways so far as we are able - and recognise we sometimes must struggle to do that without irrationally excoriating others with different viewpoints as 'evil' or immoral.

Stuart Hartill
11 April 2008 at 13:04

I know theology, as an academic discipline, is on a par with aromatherapy or flower-arranging, but did Wright really teach at Oxford?

I thought the basic duties of any academic were to consider a counter-argument respectfully, argue only from the evidence and make no grand claims which are not proven in your research.

By comparison, many of Wright's unproven generalisations would get him marked down at GCSE.

Roll on the day when such smug and arrogant clerics have their privileges removed and have to make their case in an open and democratic forum, like the rest of us.

JL
11 April 2008 at 15:04

Stuart Hartill -

If you believe that theology is not a credible academic discipline then you really are very ignorant indeed. Theology is identical to philosophy in its aims and methods. Both seek to establish adequate epistemological criteria to determine truth or, indeed, to determine whether such a concept may be established.

It is impossible to understand Western philosophy or history without knowledge of Christian theology since it has been the dominant worldview of this region for over 1600 years. Even early rationalist philosophers such as Hobbes and Spinoza are operating within a Judaeo-Christian intellectual discourse which, at many points, they integrate into their argumentation. Look at Spinoza's pseudo-Christian ethical system or the half of Hobbes's Leviathan that is dedicated to Biblical exegesis.

There is no difference between theology and philosophy. By all means, reject Christianity but don't base your atheism on ignorance of historical reality.

jeff
11 April 2008 at 16:10

I am confident that there is a scientific route to other dimensions. See string theory here. However, if I ever find it I certainly will not be raising the dead .... they caused enough problems the first time around!! A Durham Lad!

Ron McKeown
11 April 2008 at 17:44

What a pity michaelpetek, who posted on 10 April 2008 at 23:24 either did not read or did not understand my own posting. There is little difference between religious belief and other beliefs including political beliefs. Communism is a political belief and its adherents are just as likely to commit the same crimes against those they perceive to be non-believers as religious extremists do. Stalin, Mao and others spring to mind. However, I am a rational person and if he or anyone else is confident that there is a God then I am quite prepared to meet their God and discuss the issue with him/her/it.

Grahame Priest
11 April 2008 at 17:44

JL -

You make a very good point. Many of our best philosophers had their grounding in religion. And it's certainly true that they share common roots in their quest for answers to questions which, quite rightly, perplex us all.

But there is one fundamental difference. Philosophy strives to find those answers through the application of logic and reason, while religions aver they already have the answers if only people express their 'faith' – which of course defies logic and reason by negating their value. It's worth noting that faith isn't required in the face of the demonstrably provable. Indeed faith can require belief be maintained even in the face of proof to the contrary. Witness the refusal of many to accept the indisputable evidence of evolution. It's not called blind faith for nothing.

davemck
11 April 2008 at 18:49

Is Bishop Tom a creationist?

knave
11 April 2008 at 20:44

"Even early rationalist philosophers such as Hobbes and Spinoza are operating within a Judaeo-Christian intellectual discourse which, at many points, they integrate into their argumentation."

True but most later empiricists such as Hume rejected that form of discourse which was based on the philosophy of Aquinas. As for Nietsche certainly rejected religion because of his belief in free will.

Also davemck makes an important point bringing up the role of the church and the teaching of concept of intelligent design in Cof E, RC, Muslim and Jewish schools.

Assegai
12 April 2008 at 09:02

I struggle to believe in the concept of God, Jesus the ressurection and all the other tenets of Christianity although I don't think the most militant atheist or the most fervent believer can be absolutely sure in their position.

I must take issue with JL who does follow the literal belief in the ressurection when he lashes out at evangelicals over their stance on homosexuality and then quotes from the book of Romans to justify this.

The bible abominates homosexuality and there's no getting away from it. From the old testament namely Leviticus and St Pauls teaching in the New Testament - Corinthians, Timothy and Romans, it take a strong line on the issue.

In this more "tolerant" day and age it may be un pc to speak out against gays but the bible in unambiguous in its opposition to same sex relationships and the Church would be guilty of ignoring scripture if it wasn't to regard it as a sin or to promote homosexuals to positions of authority within its domain.

ted harvey
12 April 2008 at 12:50

JL sad to read that you lapse into the typical religionists habit of castigating others with alternative views as somehow beneath respect in this case you castigating others as 'very ignorant' (and of course let's not allow in any humility or doubt that you are possibly ignorant of the truth).

You postulate that "if you believe that theology is not a credible academic discipline then you really are very ignorant indeed."

Well I'm one of those lesser beings you would put down as 'very ignorant' because I do not concede that theology is at all a respectable academic discipline nor can it ever be. The core reason for this is that 'faith' will always trump 'reason' in theology. In any true discipline or science it is the rational, scientific method and the rule of reason that counts. For religionists and theologians the 'faith' excuse is the always-available get-out whenever their preconceptions are challenged or troubled by rational thought and reasoning.

It is a continual fascinating aspect of religionists and theologians that they endlessly seek to discover and enunciate 'rational' and 'scientific' basis for their emotion-based beliefs… just maybe their belief and faith is not, after all, not trump card?

JL
12 April 2008 at 13:17

Assegai -

Of course the Bible condemns homosexuality as sinful and there is no way to relativise or downplay that. However, my difficulty is with how many Christians have proceeded to treat homosexual and transgender people on the basis of that assertion. This is why I used Christ's saying "Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel". It seems to me that contemporary evangelicals fall under the rubric of this condemnation because they are singling out gays as somehow 'more sinful' than heterosexuals. This is clearly nonsense, when the Bible teaches that all people are equally sinful and incapable of procuring their own salvation. In Calvinistic terms this is described as the doctrine of 'total depravity' which renders human nature essentially corrupt and incapable of obeying divine law on its own strength. However, this is a blanket statement that applies to the whole of humanity and has no relation to one's sexual behaviour or orientation.

Assegai, in a way you are doing what most evangelicals do ie. pick out something you don't like in the Old or New Testament and then focus on it to the point that your understanding of the message is distorted by your primary obsession. In many of the Pauline etc passages in the New Testament in which homosexuality is unambiguously condemned there are equal condemnations of pride, lust, avarice, etc etc. which clearly exist independently of any identifiable pattern of sexual behaviour.

It is clear that there is no hierarchy of sins but evangelicals for some reason have chosen to construct one. The whole point of the passage I quoted from Romans is that Jesus Christ died for all kinds of sinners regardless of their particular sin(s). To deny gays full Christian fellowship is therefore in my opinion an arbitrary limitation of the power of the Gospel.

Why do evangelicals waste so much time obsessing about what constitutes a small minority of the population (perhaps 5-10 percent) and say relatively little about heterosexual promiscuity and abortion, which is a vastly more damaging phenonmenon in our society? Also, why do no evangelical leaders seek to protect homosexuals from violence, discrimination and intimidation when it is surely a Christian duty to protect the weak and oppressed? Of even greater concern is the evangelical failure to confront Islam and Islamism in a powerful and direct manner. Could it be that the actions of many evangelicals are governed by a form of personal cowardice ie choosing easy targets such as gays rather than going after the big ones that do represent a real threat to our Christian and democratic culture?

Could it be that this fundamental cowardice on the part of evangelicals is the paradoxical work of a spirit of Antichrist that has blighted the Church of England for centuries? What is certain is that given its past record of support for latitudinarian, laodecean and downright heretical theological positions, the State Church remains a fundamentally and irrevocably compromised denomination from which no 'evangelical' within can speak with integrity or authority.

(I am a she by the way).

JL
12 April 2008 at 13:30

Ted Harvey -

'typical religionist's habit'. Hm, not sure that is really a very intelligent comment. Unfortunately, there really is no such thing as a 'typical religionist' any more than there is a typical caucasian, man, child, Irishman, Jew, Muslim etc. It doesn't help us to resort to lazy stereotypes when dealing with these serious issues.

knave
12 April 2008 at 14:55

As an agnostic I do actually actually agree with JL.

You cannot asign personality traits to any political or religious or atheists individuals.

That is the problem with the witch hunt against muslims

stevencarrwork
12 April 2008 at 16:25

Wright has some amazing views on the resurrection.

Apparently the corpse of Jesus was smuggled out of the grave, underneath a new body.

Wright writes on page 371 of 'The Resurrection of the Son of God' - ;'Did Paul, perhaps, believe that Jesus' new body, his incorruptible Easter body, had been all along waiting 'in the heavens' for him to 'put on over the top of' his present one?.'

There is a book called 'The Empty Tomb' edited by Lowder and Price, which takes apart Wright's arguments (amongst other people's)

Wright has never responsed to these arguments.

He can't

padster1976
12 April 2008 at 16:53

To Michael Petek -

sir, your ignorance astounds - communism is an ideology same as any religion and therefore like a religion, is corrupt, self serving and dangerous.

If you really think the 'atheism' is a world view, then you do not know what a world view is.

If you want to look at an atheistic based system, try Secular Humanism or the Humanist Association. They go through life with 'compassion and reason'. Something that every monotheistic religion manages to miss.

padster1976
12 April 2008 at 16:58

I'm simply amazed that some religious people can find that we are evolved as somehow demeaning yet see nothing derogatory in the bibles statement that we are made from 'dirt'.

And when they talk about god given freedoms - do they actually think before they say rubbish like this? To accept the notion of a 'god' is to accept that you are a slave.

Not for me, I have self-esteem waaayyy above gutter level.

JL
12 April 2008 at 17:29

stevencarrwork -

Thanks for alerting us to the fact that Bishop Wright may in fact not be as evangelical as he is made out to be. Even John Stott, chaplain to the queen and rector of All Souls, Langham Place, who is frequently cited as a great evangelical leader, has made some bizarrely unorthodox statements that would appear to replace the conventional doctrine of hell as conscious eternal torment with an annihilationist position. Not to mention the allegedly evangelical head of the Oasis Trust, Steve Chalke, who holds less than conservative views on the atonement. For this see 'The Lost Message of Jesus' (Zondervan, 2003). Wright probably falls into this category of 'almost-evangelical' but I doubt if Sholto Byrnes, or the media in general, can be bothered with such theological 'niceties'.

stevencarrwork
12 April 2008 at 20:12

Wright 'Wright argues that, over the centuries, the influence of Greek culture and philosophy, in particular the theory of Platonic dualism - that the body is imperfect and destined to decay....'

PAUL in Romans 7:23 'Who will rescue me from this body of death?'

Assegai
12 April 2008 at 20:43

JL, you seem to want it both ways by saying on the one hand homsexuality is a sin and then slamming evangelicals for condemning it as a sin.

I'm sure they consider abortion and adultery as equally sinful as same sex relationships (as you say there is no hierarchy of sins) and have no doubt campaigned to have the 24 week upper limit of abortion reduced. Something that phoney Christian Tony Blair refused to countenance.

However when the openly homosexual Gene Robinson, was upgraded to a Bishop in New Hampshire USA, weren't the evangelicals right to protest as he was defying the word of God? I'm sure if he was in an adulterous relationship their protests would have been equally strong.

And with the recent SOR bill that was passed in parliament where Christians aren't allowed to act in accordance with their conscience on the issue of gay adoption or "marrying" a gay couple, aren't they allowed to speak out?

It is the black churches that are speaking out against homosexuality louder than any other church and when you say "could it be that the actions of many evangelicals are governed by a form of personal cowardice ie choosing easy targets such as gays" I should point out that in the UK and most developed nations it so pc to champion gays and their lifestyles that many Christians who do not accept that gay relationships have the same validity as heterosexual ones are themselves discriminated against.

JL
13 April 2008 at 01:17

Assegai -

No, I definitely do not "want it both ways". I am not condemning evangelicals for describing homosexuality as sinful, I am taking issue with what I view as an inconsistency regarding the amount of time and energy that they dedicate to gay issues as opposed to other equally important matters. There seems to be a scriptural imbalance in the way that homosexuals are consistently treated as somehow "worst" than other sinners when the Pauline revelation clearly indicates that this is not the case. The whole gay issue is massively overblown - there are many more pressing issues, particularly the threat posed by Islamist and Multiculturalist ideology in the historically Christian West. I am opposed to gays being Christian ministers but I am equally opposed to neonomian pharisees holding such positions. Who is to say that Gene Robinson is/was less or more sinful than any evangelical leader steeped in self-righteous arrogance? (which is not to say that gays are incapable of hubris...).

taghioff.info
13 April 2008 at 04:35

"The massive denial of reality by the cheap and cheerful universalism of western liberalism has a lot to answer for," he thunders in his new book. "The nihilism to which secularism has given birth leaves many with no reason for living." The bishop would like to see nothing less than an end to the Enlightenment split between religion and politics."

There is a reason for the enlightenment split between religion and politics, which is called democracy. For a democracy to function, people need to choose freely what they believe, thus such a split is a necessary feature of democracy. The core of tolerance cannot be one particular creed, it must be an openness to the meaning-making that characterizes humanity.

Secularism, particularly in its more democratic agnostic forms, does not necessarily lead to nihilism. You do not need any form of belief in order to understand that meaning is a part of life, and that as a human, whose life is made up of meanings, this makes other life, and particularly other humans, of intrinsic value.

It is only when you take up the subject position of the material, that 'things' have no inherent meaning, that you lose perspective. But we are clearly not things, we are humans, and it is in this we find meaning.

So there is no real need for religion, in its dogmatic forms, since humanism is meaningful enough to hold both a democratic polity and a healthy psyche together.

stevencarrwork
13 April 2008 at 09:54

STUART HARTHILL

Roll on the day when such smug and arrogant clerics have their privileges removed and have to make their case in an open and democratic forum, like the rest of us.

CARR

There is a forum to discuss Wright's views at

http://www.jamesgregoryforum.org/viewforum.php?f=4

I posted quite a bit, refuting Wright.

Almost all of my posts were deleted, and my userid was cancelled without warning.

By contrast, the Christian moderators kept such tough questions for Wright as 'How did you get to be so clever?'

Delete and censor. That is the only way Christians can keep up their end of rational debate.

LHegarty
13 April 2008 at 17:36

Stevencarrwork states that delete and censor is the only way Christians can keep up their end of rational debate. As parents we had to operate a similar policy when our daughter was 6 years old. We deleted all awkward questions she asked about the realistic viability of Father Christmas . We also censored any material that could contradict or deny his existence.

ted harvey
13 April 2008 at 21:36

JL if you want to avoid facing the real issues and weaknesses in what you say by resorting to accusations of ‘lazy stereotyping’… I can only say, read my posting again and as you can see - you started it i.e. by declaring others to be “very ignorant indeed” :)

On another matter, Assegai is quite correct, inthat on homosexuality you are trying to have it both ways – your response is an obtuse and mildly excrutiating series of devices to avoid saying anything of sustained consistancy. You responded to Assegai in the same way as to me; total avoidance of the real issues and weaknesses in what you originally said. And of course having expended quite some effort on it, you then try to sign the whole issue off anyway by taking it upon yourself to assert that “The whole gay issue is massively overblown - there are many more pressing issues”. When in fact the “gay issue” is at the very heart of Christian (and other major religions’) obsessions and schisms; again I ask just why is it that so many Christian clergy (often celibate men) and fundamentalist Christians are quite so obsessively pre-occuppied by gay people?

Your responses verify my position that with religionists and theology there is no rationality or academic discipline, because for them ‘faith’ will always win out over rationalism and logic, and even evidence.

toglyn
14 April 2008 at 12:00

... I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate. Whre is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? ... for the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength'. I Corinthians 1: 19-20, 25.

spad600
14 April 2008 at 19:19

So what DID happen to Jesus's body? To put an end to this perfidious corruption of Judiasm, all the authorities of the day need do was produce it.

JL
14 April 2008 at 20:03

Ted Harvey - too many generalizations and misrepresentations for me to answer in a short reply. Your use of the terms 'rationality' and 'evidence' is sloppy though. Rationality is an *ideal*, posited by the Greeks and people like Leibniz, Wolff and Thomasius since. Rationality is not something that we in practice live by since human beings are, as we can see from millenia of lived history, deeply irrational. This is evidenced by such acts as, to name but one notable exemple, the Holocaust as well as countless other private and public stupidities that we pile up every day. Accordingly, it is clear that we cannot use 'reason' as an absolute and infallible measure of reality since we cannot be finally assured of the rationality of our initial conceptions of reason itself. You cannot measure something by itself.

Not only can we not live by 'reason' due to the inherent inattainability of the concept itself, we cannot hope to construct any workable system of morality and behaviour on the basis of something so evidentially slight and dependent on the perceptions as rationality.

The propositional truths contained in the Bible are not elaborated in opposition to reason, they supersede it. It is very much like the Surrealist 'Aufhebung' or transformation of reality to produce a higher reality.

Your response to what I wrote about evangelicals and homosexuality seems slightly odd. It seems you are taking issue with the fact that I expressed a personal opinion which differs from the precise views that you expect an evangelical Christian to hold. I am simply arguing that this issue has taken up an inordinate amount of time and energy in evangelical (as well as liberal) Christian circles and that that time could be better spent in refuting Islam, combatting our selfish celebrity culture etc. Is that so difficult to understand?

Gideon Polya
14 April 2008 at 23:31

In his wonderful book "Death's Dream Kingdom. The American psyche since 9/11" American Professor Walter Davis exposes the evil certitude and fearful hatreds of the religious right.

In short Professor Walter Davis says that decent humans are obliged to resolutely and painfully (a) inspect Themselves, "know thyself" and (b) try to understand empathize with the Other.

However the Religous Right (of which the Racist Religious Right Republican, R4, Bush-ites are an obscene satire-becomes-reality ) have certitude and xenophobia i.e they (a) have no need to question Themselves (they are "saved" and have all the answers) and (b) hate, bomb, invade, occupy, mass murder the Other whose very existence perturbs their delusional certitude (for review see: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/8761/26/ ) .

As for wonderful Jesus, He preached and practised what agnostic Humanists like myself accept as fundamental for decent human beings: (a) know thyself as in His self-searching in the Desert and (b) "love they neighbor as thyself" and "you cannot walk by on the other side".

Of course it is not just the Religious Right fanatics who choose to IGNORE horrendous Internal and External realities. Thanks in part to lying, racist, holocaust-ignoring, Bush-ite-beholden Mainstream media, the West is involved in horrendous holocaust commission and holocaust denial - post-invasion excess deaths in the Occupied Palestinian, Iraqi and Afghan Territories now total about 0.3 million, 2 million and 3-6 million, respectively and the global food price crisis (16 million die avoidably ALREADY from deprivation each year; driven by US, UK and EU biofuel perversion, climate change, oil and market demand threatens "billions" according to the UK Chief Scientist (see: http://climateemergency.blogspot.com/ ).

As an agnostic Humanist I concede that faith helps billions cope with life. Indeed evolutionary biologist Professor Dawkins (The God Delusion) argues that a hard-wired "God Delusion" has been selected for evolutionarily.

However the Religious Right are cowardly, delusional and xenophobic - put simply they constitute what is best described as the Anti-Christ.

Indeed UK Nobel Laureate Harold Pinter in his 2005 Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech has demanded that the notorious Religious Right warmongers Bush and Blair be arraigned before the International Criminal Court.

Aldousk
15 April 2008 at 12:12

'a "1984-style world" where "we create our own utopia by our own efforts, particularly our science and technology".'

Um. He really meant to say "brave new world", didn't he? Unless, of course, he thinks that Eric Blair's nightmare is utopian. Ask Smith,perhaps.

JL
15 April 2008 at 15:39

Gideon Polya -

You make a lot of very good points. The 'Religious Right' has definitely hijacked the Gospel for political aims and almost completely obscured the original message of Christ's death and resurrection, especially in the US. Books by Randall Balmer, Jim Wallis, Gregory Boyd, and Jon Meacham all deal with this issue. As far as I can see, the authentic Christian message is threatened on two fronts: firstly by the politicized reactionary right and secondly by the liberal 'Jesus was just a moral teacher' brigade. Both are wrong and both are, as you suggest Mr Polya, in denial of the truth.

Ron McKeown
16 April 2008 at 13:52

Could I ask Gideon Polya who posted on 14 April 2008 at 23:31 on what basis does he justify his claims of racism? He uses the terms racist and xenophobia twice in his attack on the American right but does not explain the reasons behind the charge. What is his definition of racism and xenophobia?

Lyndannys
16 April 2008 at 16:33

This article is about the archbishop's supposed radical new take on an old chestnut . He talks about "the trinity, the incarnation" ... being thought of as "silly old 5th century ways of talking about god" - has anything changed? A radical new take would be to listen to and apply reason and there are many commentators here who would be delighted to help him find his way through to the ultimate truth.

Gideon Polya
16 April 2008 at 23:47

Good questions Ron McKeown.

"Xenophobia" means "fear of the foreign" and thanks to the Religious Right, Zionist, Bush-ite and neo-Bush-ite fanatics is now entrenched in the West with rampant anti-Arab anti-Semitism and Islamophobia (just pick up a newspaper at random today and read anything from explicit vilification to implicit support for mass murder of Muslims, about 1,500 of whom die avoidably EVERY DAY in the Occupied Iraqi and Afghan Territories alone) (see: http://climateemergency.blogspot.com/ ).

"Racism" means "to damagingly discriminate on the basis of race" but the meaning has been blunted by politically astute "political correctness" in the Western Murdochracies. What I call "politically correct racism" or "PC racism" involves doing ghastly things to people of other ethnicities (typically overseas) that you wouldn't dream of doing to your own, while simultaneously preaching "non-racism" and indeed practising this domestically (clearly necessary in multi-racial UK to prevent race riots).

Thus to a decent and sensible person, publicly denying a non-White person and his partner a place at a London restaurant would be clear evidence of racism even if the perpetrator did not ARTICULATE the basis.

Similarly, the horrendous Palestinian Genocide, Iraqi Genocide, Afghan Genocide (post-invasion excess deaths 0.3 million, 2 million and 3-6 million, refugees totalling 7 million, 4.5 million and 4 million respectively) are prima facie evidence of egregious Religious Right-, Zionist-, Bush-ite and neo-Bush-ite promoted "racism" ("treating other races in ways that you would not treat your own") - even though these atrocities are assertedly "justified" in terms of "bringing democracy to the Muslim world", an obscene latter-day equivalent of the "arbeit macht frei" over the entrance to Auschwitz..

Of course Religious Right-, Zionist-, Bush-ite and neo-Bush-ite-promoted holocaust-ignoring and holocaust-denial in the Western Murdochracies - LYING, if you will - inevitably means that it is getting worse.

Thus 16 million people die avoidably each day from deprivation on Spaceship Earth (see: http://globalbodycount.blogspot.com/) and this carnage is being increasingly impacted by man-made global warming and other manifestations of "passive racist" greed leading to "passive genocide". Thus the UK Chief Scientist Professor John Beddington FRS recently warned that the US-, UK- and EU-mandated biofuel perversion threatens "billions" (a double whammy because biofuel typically is a net greenhouse gas polluter and is helping cause man-made famine by increasing global food prices) (see "Global food crisis": http://mwcnews.net/content/view/21277/42/ ) .

Those remorselessly killing millions (think "Titanic" on a 4 million times greater scale) don't articulate their "intent" for obvious reasons - but the "intent' is established empirically through sustained, remorseless POLICY and genocide as defined by the UN Genocide convention involves "intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group".

In January I took part in a BBC broadcast with Economics Nobel Laureate Professor Amartya Sen (Harvard University , formerly Cambridge University) and other scholars about the

World War 2 man-made Bengal Famine in 1943-1945 (pretty remorseless, sustained and "intentional") that killed 6-7 million in Bengal and adjoining provinces when the price of rice doubled and finally quadrupled but the British Government left it to nature and "market forces" (see: http://janeaustenand.blogspot.com/ ).

TODAY, the price of rice and other foods has doubled in the last year driven by the US-, UK-, EU-mandated biofuel perversion, global warming, and demand (for grain, oil and meat) in a globalized market - we are seeing the beginning of a horrendous man-made famine possibly 100 greater in scale than the WW2 Bengali Holocaust and which primarily affect non-Europeans (see "Global food crisis: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/21277/42/ ).

I have done my duty and made a formal complaint to the International criminal court over war criminal, climate criminal, PC racist AUSTRALIAN involvement in Aboriginal Genocide, Iraqi Genocide, Afghan Genocide and Climate Genocide (see: http://ruddaustraliareportcard.blogspot.com/ ).

Indeed Australia's new PM Rudd (aka Religious Right Rudd or R3) has been horrendously hypocritical in his US-inspired anti-China comments over Tibet when on a "Subject/Ruler infant death rate ratio" MEASURE – 51 for Occupied Afghanistan/Occupier Australia and 38 for Occupied Afghanistan/Occupier US versus 1 for Tibet/China - war criminal, climate criminal, PC racist White Australia is currently the World’s Worst human rights abuser by far (I hasten to add that I endorse Amnesty's critical statement over Tibet to the UN Human Rights Council) (see "US anti-China Tibet agenda. Media ignores US and Australian human rights abuses" : http://mwcnews.net/content/view/21671/42/ ) .

maigemu
17 April 2008 at 08:13

One factual correction. In 1972 the Banner of Truth published his book The Grace of God in the Gospel. Wright was one of four authors. I believe this was his first book.

Ron McKeown
17 April 2008 at 22:20

Thanks Gideon Polya for your reply of 16 April 2008 at 23:47

My reason for asking the question in the first place was to try and understand what your posting had to do with the original article concerning Tom Wright and his belief that Jesus will rise again. Having read the reply I still cannot see a plausible connection. What does send a shiver down the spine is the similarity between your rhetoric against America and the west and the anti-Jewish rhetoric of nineteen-thirties Germany.

There is no such thing as an American racial identity other than that which belongs to the native American Indian population. The ruling classes of America are made up of a melting pot of different races so your statement that "Xenophobia" means "fear of the foreign" seems somewhat strange. They are all foreign.

Likewise your assert that "Racism" means "to damagingly discriminate on the basis of race" but the meaning has been blunted by politically astute "political correctness" in the Western Murdochracies. What I call "politically correct racism" or "PC racism" involves doing ghastly things to people of other ethnicities (typically overseas) that you wouldn't dream of doing to your own.”

Do you include in this description the taking of hostages and the videoing of cutting off their heads and placing such videos on the web? Do you include suicide bombing in such places as Bali or central London or do you, like the government class this as “Terrorism”?

I see that you are a believer in the man-made global warming scam which has received a considerable amount of attention elsewhere on this site. Perhaps your vulnerability to this latest example of brain-washing speaks as loud as your anti-western stance.

Like you, I disagree with intervention, militarily or otherwise, into other countries and I am appalled that anyone can be killed in my name. As an atheist I know that this is the one and only life anyone can have and to take a life for any reason is the greatest crime against humanity. I also consider it a crime to enslave a person using religious or political belief and that seems to be where we diverge. You can criticise one particular group whilst defending another - I will not. Freedom from fear and freedom to live ones life in peace is the ideal. Something that cannot be achieved under the yoke of religion or politics and hence my contribution to the debate.

David Lindsay
18 April 2008 at 18:41

Why are you all so nostalgic for the Thatcher years? Appointing bishops of culturally conservative ritualised agnosticism not only reflected her own religious beliefs perfectly, but made any really robust theological critique of economics or politics impossible. Academic cod-Marxism had to fill the gap. And it couldn't, as it still can't, and as it will never be able to.

I know of which I speak on this one. I believe in the universal Welfare State, in the strong statutory and other (including trade union) protection of workers and consumers, in progressive taxation, in full employment, and in the partnership between a strong Parliament and strong local government. I want free eye and dental treatment for all. I am against PFIs and PPPs. I am in favour of a national network of free public transport. I would give everyone a tax-free income of half national median earnings. I would abolish non-domicle tax status. I am totally against the neoconservative war agenda. And much else besides.

But none of that matters. What matters is whether or not I submit to the directives of two political movements - homosexualism and radical feminism - which did not exist forty years ago and which have never had any large followings among the homosexually inclined, among women, or among anyone else. When will you see that dancing to these movements' tunes is the cover under which all manner of cutters, privatisers, union-busters and warmongers pretend to be on the Left, and so kill off the real Left as a political force? Or is that what you want?

davidaslindsay@hotmail.com, http://davidaslindsay.blogspot.com

Klatu
19 April 2008 at 21:11

With a new interpretation of the moral teachings of Christ on the web containing a new definition of the Resurrection, it may just be that the last two thousand years of theological Christianity is just so much codswhallop? For the first time in history, a religious tenet exists offering access, by faith, to absolute proof for its belief.

Check the link: http://www.energon.org.uk

Pierre
20 April 2008 at 02:38

I certainly hope that God is on his way maybe then we can be rid of these religion salesman.

Think for a moment how grotesque it is to have as one of your idols " a man being tortured to death on a stick of wood."

Insanity knows no bounds

BritishAirman
20 April 2008 at 09:26

A lesson you might like to read, Sunday 20 April 2008:

http://www.markatscotland.blogspot.com

FrDavid
20 April 2008 at 15:57

This is the kind of Bishop we need

www.fatherdavidheron@blogspot.com

Nigel in Manchester
21 April 2008 at 01:39

this is the kind of loser we need - like a hole in the head.

anSiarach
22 April 2008 at 09:53

"Here he declares war on militant atheists and liberals"

How about people actually provide an example of these supposedly 'Militant' atheists before they abuse the term 'militant' by ascribing it to a group they simply dont like. Disagreeing with religion doesnt make one militant. Angrily disagreeing with religion doesnt make one militant. Holding religion in absolute contempt doesnt make one militant. Being a militant is what makes one fucking militant and as much as i shouldnt really be surprised by blatant dishonesty and abuse of terms by Christians (having had the misfortune to grow up in a fundementalist community i know them well enough) it never ceases to surprise me how the most fervent believers are the most eager to lie. Until we actually start seeing "militant atheists" taking part in a campaign of violence along the lines of the Iraqi insurgency we can basically disregard any opinion put forward by someone using the term as being dishonest and foolish.

Dr Phil Thomas
24 April 2008 at 17:43

Jenny Webb appears to have forgotten that the Jewish Sabbath was a Saturday not a Sunday while those readers who appear to believe that Dawkins et.al. are neither militant nor atheists simply undermine their credibility as dispassionate observers of the human condition. Somehow I expected better of NS readers than brief ill thought out responses listed. Perhaps they should remember to see themselves as others see them before providing self portraits of their own bigotry, militant or otherwise

Ron McKeown
24 April 2008 at 18:21

Dr Phil Thomas - It is not possible to be a militant atheist. What could an atheist have to be militant about?

Perhaps your misunderstanding of atheists is shown in your comment that,

“those readers who appear to believe that Dawkins et.al. are neither militant nor atheists simply undermine their credibility as dispassionate observers of the human condition.”

An atheist does not have beliefs so an atheist would not “believe” that Dawkins is not an atheist. If they are prone to belief then they cannot be atheist. Also, if someone professes an atheist belief then they are most likely agnostic and not atheist. You cannot have it both ways - you either have beliefs or you are an atheist.

cosmoos
26 April 2008 at 13:04

The only evidence for the existence of Christ is in the four Gospels; Mathew ,Mark Luke and John. There is no historical evidence anywhere outside the Gospels for the existence of Christ.

Who wrote the Gospels is another mystery.

JL
28 April 2008 at 13:55

Not true cosmoos -

Pliny and Tacitus both mention Christ or 'Chrestus'. In any case, the idea that the historical existence of Jesus Christ should be rejected because he 'only' appears in the Gospels is bizarre. What matters is the internal plausibility of these documents and, secondarily, the ability to relate the recorded events to some recognizable secular chronology, which the Bible does eg. 'When Quirinius was governor of Syria...' etc. To reject the historicity of Jesus Christ out of hand because they appear in a series of books that we consider to be propaganda is barely logical; our arguments for or against Christ's existence/ divinity should be based on evaluation of the evidence, not on some a priori philosophical position.

Riaz Ahmad
01 May 2008 at 20:52

This god and religion business is really amazing. Why did god choose such ardous route to come in the shape of Jesus, or send his messengers, Moses and Mohammed. If god is almighty as it is claimed, why does he not end evil with a snap of a finger. If he is kind and loving then why is he just watching billions starve. If he is just, then why does he not do something about poverty. He does not a need security council resolution to arrest the satan. WHY IS GOD SO POWERLESS IF HE REALLY EXISTS AND HAS ATTRIBUTES WHICH THE TORAH, BIBLE AND QURAN CLAIMS HE HAS. At the moment there is only one god, and he periodically changes his body and face and appears in the form of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

cosmoos
02 May 2008 at 18:40

JL,

I don't agree.You fail to give any evidence of who the authors of the Bible were.Plausibility is not historical evidence.Please produce the evidence. Josephus was considered to have produced some evidence,but it is thought by most historians to be flawed.

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About the writer

Sholto Byrnes is a contributing editor of the New Statesman and the jazz critic of the Independent. Previously he was diary editor, chief interviewer and senior feature writer at both Independent titles. He is a judge for this year's Paul Hamlyn Foundation awards for composers.

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