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Interview: Ed Balls

Martin Bright and John Kampfner

Published 13 December 2007

The education secretary is passionate about transforming schools and the lives of children in Britain and that, he insists, is what he's getting on with

Ed Balls is worried about Christmas. It just isn't the way it was when he was a lad. He talks excitedly about the festive season in the Balls household three decades ago, heralded each year by the arrival of his grandmother, bearing a special treat. "You remember the big issue of the Radio Times, when it was the only source of TV listings? You only had four channels. What you chose was really exciting."

As one of the "Young Turks" around Gordon Brown, Balls is often represented as some sort of teenage tearaway, when he is in fact a 40-year-old father-of-three. He grew up in the 1970s, in the days before satellite television, before mobile phones, before the internet.

Woven into the fabric of his new Children's Plan is a recognition that the 21st century is a scary place for parents, many of whom are struggling to comprehend the rapid technological shifts affecting their children. So, to complement the changes to the curriculum, the increase in nursery places for two-year-olds, reform of primary school tests, comes a commitment to examining the effects of new cultural phenomena on children. Experts will examine the impact of violent computer games on boys, of the increasing sexualisation of women's bodies on young girls and other effects of commercialisation.

"Because there's so much more dedicated children's TV and advertising, you can see how the pester power of children is much greater than it was 30 years ago. That is something that, as a parent, you just try to deal with. As a parent, I worry about the way in which commercial pressure - TV, the internet, sexualisation - impacts on self-esteem. But I couldn't say I understand it." This is quite an admission from a man with a reputation for knowing everything about everything. Balls believes that our knowledge of how the media affect our behaviour is still limited, but he is convinced the effects are real.

The Children's Plan is a vastly ambitious document, nothing short of a blueprint for the next generation. "The driving vision is wanting to make Britain a better place for children to grow up, wanting every child to fulfil their talents, to make progress at school, but also to be healthy, be happy, to be able to play as well as learn," Balls says. He talks of schools being "an early-warning indicator of things which are becoming a problem outside", such as health, antisocial behaviour and poverty. At the heart of this mission is the need to "break down all the barriers to learning and progress for every child in and outside of school".

Intervention for troubled children does not come early enough, he says. "The first time they get extra help if they're going off the rails shouldn't be when they get into trouble with the criminal justice system."

He acknowledges that the rate of progress has been slower than it should have been. "Standards have been rising progressively in the past ten years but we're not yet world-class. Children from poor backgrounds have seen faster improvements in results in the past four or five years. But it is still the case that your educational chances are substantially affected by where you live, the occupation of your parents, the income of your family."

Early learning

We suggest that the plan marks a significant shift in philosophy from the early days of new Labour. The Balls concept of "personalised learning", for example, does not sound a million miles away from the concept of "child-centred learning", which was much derided by the likes of David Blunkett as a hangover from the progressive teaching practices of the 1960s and 1970s. "Well, it's certainly putting the needs of children and families first," says Balls.

He concedes that the government has struggled to resolve the intractable problem of dealing with the bottom 20 per cent of children who consistently fail to hit the level now expected of them at 11 (Level 4 at Key Stage 2, to use the official jargon). "An important reason why the pace [of improvement] has slowed is that as you increase the number of children who are getting to Level 4 at 11, as you get closer to the 80 per cent, getting above that means tackling a whole series of situations in children's lives which are not simply going to be solved by teaching a particular curriculum in the classroom."

For this reason Balls is convinced of the im portance of so-called "wrap-around services" for schools outside normal school hours - in particular, breakfast clubs. "Too often children, because of what's happened to them at the weekend, arrive at school unable to start learning. The breakfast club for the first hour of the day means that they eat, but they also stabilise, which means that they can learn through the rest of the day. If it weren't for that, we couldn't teach in the school. It's also a critical part of tackling the wider barriers to learning."

Underlying moves to change the way children are tested in the final year of primary is a view that the present system is too simplistic. Instead of tests on a single day, children will be assessed when teachers judge them ready. This will allow brighter children to move on to a more advanced curriculum and children who are less able, or younger, to work at their own pace.

"This is not a retreat from objective standardised information school by school, which allows parents and national and local government to assess progress," he says. "But it is a move away from inflexible, one-size-fits-all testing at 11. Instead, when children move up a level, the level at which they start and how far they can go depends on the child - and teachers and parents."

Has he been depressed by the difficulties La bour has encountered in tackling social mobility? He sighs. "It tells you that you don't turn round a century or more of attitudes and assumptions about what different groups in society can achieve in a few years. It's a big, long-term task."

In a previous interview with the NS before he became a minister (during the Blair era), Balls said he was not afraid to describe himself as a socialist. So we ask him again about equality. Now in the cabinet, he appears to be making similar claims for Labour under Brown.

"We're a progressive egalitarian government which wants to abolish child poverty, make sure opportunity is available for all and not just some, and to break out of an idea that excellence can only be for a few, and that you have a two-tier view of society in which the education and opportunities of people from low-income families or from particular communities are second-best." This, he says, goes far beyond the old mantras of equality of opportunity.

So why did the government give in to pressure from the Conservatives and the right-wing press to raise the threshold of inheritance tax, perhaps the clearest redistributive tax of them all?

"If you send a signal out which is that 'there's only so far you can rise in Britain', then people will go elsewhere. Having been a City minister for a year and seen the reality of that world, [I can tell you that] the high achievers are very, very mobile people. We don't want to send a signal that we are a society which doesn't welcome talent and expertise and doesn't want to see people being rewarded.

"I don't want to live in a society where inequality is rising and you have huge gaps between the haves and have-nots. That isn't the foundation for a strong society. But at the same time, I don't think in a global economy you can start by addressing the balance by capping rewards at the top without paying quite a big price in terms of your ability . . . to attract investment and talent and companies to come and create jobs in your country - and that is central to the progressive dilemma."

Spread the word

In the last issue of the NS, the left-wing deputy leadership candidate Jon Cruddas and his campaign manager Jon Trickett published the most trenchant critique yet of the Brown government's faults. We ask Balls for his view, expecting him to dismiss the article. Instead he argues that Cruddas and Trickett are knocking at an open door. "I think that we are, in education, child poverty, health, housing, setting out radical progressive policies with increasingly clear dividing lines between the parties," he says. Why then are so many on the left disillusioned? "We as a government need to have the confidence to talk and shout about those issues more."

When Balls was in internal opposition to the Blairites he was often thought to be working behind the scenes to undermine flagship policies such as tuition fees and trust schools. His Commons opposite number, Michael Gove, likes to quote Balls, also from the NS, expressing doubts about the controversial education bill of the time, which gave schools new freedoms from local authority control.

Balls admits he has changed his mind. "The thing about policymaking in the past ten years," he says - "and this includes policy I was involved with - this is the process: you start with a view, there's discussion, policy evolves, you reach a conclusion. The question is: Have you reached the right conclusion? Have you arrived at the right place? What started as a policy that some feared would set school against school and what some feared would lead to greater selection actually ended up delivering a stronger admissions code than we've ever had."

So Blair was right all along?

"As I said, it's the evolution of policy, and it shows the government, the Labour Party and parliament at its best. There were very influen-tial select committee reports and there were debates which went on and we ended up with a good outcome."

Jobs for the boys

Ed Balls has stood shoulder to shoulder with Gordon Brown since he became an adviser to him in opposition in 1994, when he really was young. In government he has been at his side at the Treasury, first as an adviser and then as a minister. His rise to a top cabinet post under a Brown premiership was inevitable. His analysis of the events of the past six months provides a fascinating insight from within the Brown bunker.

"The idea was that once the transition occurred, Gordon Brown would slump in the polls and fail. Therefore when the transition occurred, to be honest, everyone was rather taken aback by how well it went. So when you had quite a big swing in one direction . . . then maybe people suddenly sort of pinched themselves and said, 'Well, it can't be going this well.'"

We ask Balls if he thinks the Labour Party is off the bottom now. "There have been too many weeks in the past few weeks where you've thought, 'Nothing could come along and be as difficult as it was last week,' and then it did," he says. "But politics isn't about avoiding issues that are difficult to deal with. You win elections by having difficult issues which you deal with well."

One area where he admits bad mistakes were made is the cancelled election, a fiasco for which Balls and other "Young Turks" have been held responsible. He is frank in his analysis.

"It was badly handled in that . . . an interesting discussion which was a reflection of the fact that we were ahead in the polls . . . moved beyond the theoretical. And as Gordon himself has said, he should have moved more quickly to shut down the speculation if he wasn't going to go for the election."

So just how closely involved is he in the Downing Street machine? What about meetings with other members of the young clique? Balls insists he has seen the likes of Ed Miliband and Douglas Alexander perhaps only three times over the past month, outside cabinet meetings. After all the recent problems, does Brown need to bring new people into his team? "That's a question you've got to ask Gordon. I'm the Secretary of State. I get on with my job." What about talk of a return for Alastair Campbell? "News to me."

Does Balls talk to Brown every day, for example - as some reports suggest? "No. Of course I don't," he retorts. "Do I do morning calls every day? No. Do I go and have a meeting with Gordon every day? No. Am I trying to run the government or run Downing Street? Of course I'm not. Is it bad enough trying to run a department of this scale and scope? Yes. Is it a time-consuming job doing that? Yes. If Gordon rings me do I talk to him? Of course. I'm not part of the strategic directive of Downing Street. But what's the point of me attempting to jump up and down every time a diary story or a sketch says that must be true? You just roll your eyes and carry on."

Ed Balls: the CV

1967 Born 25 February in Norwich. Educated at Nottingham High School and Oxford

1989-90 Fellow at Harvard

1990-94 Leader writer and columnist, Financial Times

1994-97 Economic adviser to Gordon Brown

1994 Coins the term "post-neoclassical endogenous growth theory", leading Michael Heseltine to quip: "It's not Brown's, it's Balls"

1998 Marries Yvette Cooper MP (now minister for housing). They have three children

1999-2004 Chief economic adviser to the Treasury

May 2005 Elected MP for Normanton

May 2006 Becomes economic secretary to the Treasury

June 2007 Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families

Research by Alyssa McDonald

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12 comments from readers

writeon
13 December 2007 at 15:14

Is it too much to ask that the word 'passionate' is given a rest in 2008 when refering to New Labour ministers and their areas of responsibility? Am I the only person whose sceptical about politicians who appear 'passionate'? Considering how slowly most governments seem to work and how long change seems to take, surely 'passion' is almost the opposite of the qualities required to govern?

Assegai
13 December 2007 at 16:03

No reference from Ed about the UK's big drop in world league tables in reading, maths and science since 2000 (for which the Tories must take credit as there's always a time lag in these matters). http://news.independent.co.uk/education/education_news/artic...

What about the increase in teenage pregnancies despite the proliferation of sex education in our schools which start at an earlier age than ever before?

Carl Jones
13 December 2007 at 20:02

Ed Balls....did Bildreberg give birth to this NWO childrens policy?lol

The trouble with you NWO lackeys, is that you seek decoy targets so that real problems are never addressed. The real reasons why British children are so unhappy, is the British obsession with the mortgage, this perpetuates our rotten culture of long working hours and this is driven by a culture of under productivity.....of which there has been no real improvement for the last 40 years.

22 miles away, there is a country which is the most productive in the developed world. Yes, you can forget about Amerika, they perform slightly better than the UK.lol

France offers a 35 hour working week....GDP continues to rise and so does productivity...they are also effectively paying women to have babies. Unfortunately, the French now have to put up with Mossad agent Mr Sarkozy.lol If you want to raise the issue of French riots, it is an unspoken truth that both periods of riots have been organised by forces external of France....strange that they should occure in November and not in the warmth of August.lol

Maybe Mr Balls should publish the Bliderberg minutes before he trowels on thick NWO plaster, covering old world order cracks. The Poles can do it cheaper....further deepening the plight of British children.

Iftikhar
13 December 2007 at 20:25

Salaam

There is nothing for 500,000 Muslim children in British schools. Majority of them leave schools with low grades. They are cut off from their cultural roots and langauges because British schools do not encourage and provide facitlies for bilingual Muslim children.

Bilingial Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models. They need to be well versed in English to follow the national Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time they need to be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.

A Muslim is a citizen of the tiny global viallage. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit.

Frank
14 December 2007 at 11:50

10 years on and they still haven't got it right.

PlanetStarbucks
14 December 2007 at 14:10

"But it is still the case that your educational chances are substantially affected by where you live, the occupation of your parents, the income of your family."

Never going to change. Bright kids from working class backgrounds don't have the home support or role models, let alone the schools to attend. I have seen many of my friends fail educationally due to a lack of support. If these people had of been from caring, middle-class backgrounds then all would have probably gone to decent universities. Working class children often grow up with nothing but apathy towards education as they cannot see the benefits of it in their own homes or in the areas they live.

As with Peter Hain's article regarding the dole, Mr Balls has no experience of the drudgery of working class life, or of the family breakdown that accompanies many from such a background from an early age. I hate to say it, but Cameron has a point about keeping families together. If a child is told they can succeed by their nuclear family and their teachers they have a far better chance of achievement than the single-parent child raised by the TV.

Martin Bright
14 December 2007 at 15:52

I think this is the real "elephant in the living room" of the Labour government. Until the social apartheid of our education is addressed we will make no progress in this area.

seasider
14 December 2007 at 18:01

God I hate these fake family recollections, just to try to make him sound normal. Three decades ago, the Radio Times was not the only source for TV listings...you had to get the TV Times as well, for ITV listings. And three decades ago there were not 'only four channels' there were in fact 3.

writeon
14 December 2007 at 23:13

Martin,

This is a crucial question - social apartheid; which I believe is actually getting worse as the gap between the classes widens. But reforming the education system is a longtem, national project, which will take a minimum of thirty to forty years to put right. Have a look at the Finnish experience which I believe supports my view. Decades ago the Finns took a national decision to raise educational standards across the board, but they put the primary effort into raising the level of education of the least well-educated sections of Finnish soiciety. They specifically wanted to break the grip of the educational apartheid that had become entrenched in Finland.

The good news is, the national project worked, if there is a broad-based concensus about what needs to be done. The bad news is, it takes decades.

A final point of a general nature. Painted with a broad brush. There's a great deal of criticism of 'working-class' behaviour and attitudes, or the 'underclass' or whatever one wants to call them. It seems one criticizes them for not acting and behaving like the 'gentry'. My point is, this is absurd, ignorant, and stupid. How on earth do we expect the 'underclass' to adopt middle-class values and behaviour patterns, when their economic circumstances are so vastly different? This is going to sound terribly Old Labour, but I believe the only real way to mitigate the worst effects of the creation of an enormous 'underclass', surely the real legacy of Thatchrism, is a targetted and structural reform of British society, based on a fundamental redistribution of wealth.

Assegai
15 December 2007 at 13:15

You couldn't be more wrong writeon.

Kids will do well if they come from a good family background where there is a value put on education. I sent my kids to the local comp which was by far the worst performing state school in the area (only 22% got 5 or more good GCSEs) and this school was shunned by many kids from single parents living on the nearby council estate in favour of comps with better results. Guess what, those kids that weren't kicked out or "left" before GCSEs performed abysmally whilst mine did as well as they would if they had gone to a posh school be it in the state or private sector.

On your other point there has already been a huge redistibution of wealth towards the underclass where single parents with 2 kids working part time can take home £487.00 per week in wages and benefits while me and my wife in very low paid jobs are subsidising these people out of our income taxes http://www.reform.co.uk/website/pressroom/news.aspx?o=30

The best way to tackle many of the social problems that exist today is to encourage marriage rather than throwing money at schemes which are meant to help the poor - Ed Balls take note http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.htm...

writeon
15 December 2007 at 20:41

Assegai,

With respect, I don't believe your personal experience is particularly relevant. I'm talking about educational strategies for countries, not individual families. When you say I couldn't be more wrong, are you refering to my statements relating to Finland or what exactly? Have you studied the Finnish educational reform programme that was begun decades ago, with the specific aim of raising standards for everyone and especially those at the bottom of the social scale? Have you ever been to Finland and looked at schools in different parts of the country and how they function? Have you compared the status of teachers in Finland with Britain? What do you know about Finnish teaching methods? Finland isn't an educational paradise, but the point is they have shown pretty conclusively that it is possible to introduce educational reforms that mitigate the worst effects of 'educational apartheid'. Only it takes time, organisation and money.

I don't agree with you point about a 'huge redistribution of wealth towards the underclass'. Once again your example is interesting but hardly relevant to the socio/economic policies implimented in Britain over the last thirty years which have created a society with a profoundly unjust distribution of wealth and therefore life chances.

jclements
04 March 2008 at 10:15

As what is commonly called an 'absent father' - pc speak and not my choice - I have recently found myself writing to Mr Balls with regards to a local secondary school's policy which could have a national impact on both absent parents and their estranged children. I was appalled and disgusted to be dismissed by Mr Balls, who had obviously not taken the time to read my letter, when he responded that I should seek the advice of a solicitor. Perhaps if Mr Balls had read the letter he would have seen that my individual case merely raised and drew attention to a larger, more national issue.

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