'There was no Armenian genocide'

199 comments from readers

Robert Powell
23 October 2007 at 10:48

So let me get this straight. The Armenian people, occupied by the oppressive Turkish empire deserved to be subjected to wholesale slaughter because they wanted to be free. Brilliantly argued! And so my boycott of Turkey continues.

eddy
23 October 2007 at 10:53

Turkey is not only denying the fact of Armenian Genocide, but its exporting its aggresiv denial policy to the wolrd

Excerpts from the rationale of the cross-party and unanimously adopted "Armenian Resolution" of the German Federal Parliament

(Source: Lower House of the German Parliament Printed Matter 15/5689, 15th Legislative Period 15.06.05)

andrew
23 October 2007 at 10:53

Your whole argument is because the armenians wanted their human rights and liberties; it is just for Turks to slaughter and try annihilate them!!!!

You are an absolute idiot and pathetic loser!!!

Your propaganda goes as far as the ass that spits it out!!

Turkey is a disgrace to humanity and its past must be dealt with and acknowledged!!

eddy
23 October 2007 at 11:00

JUSTICATION A GENOCIDE!

The malicious denial of the Turkish-instigated genocide of the Armenians and the continual demand for still more proof is a byproduct of the "glorious history" invented by Turkish bureaucrats for this "chosen people." This invented, glorious history declares all civilized people who ever existed within the perimeter of today's Turkey - no matter what their indigenous culture is or was - as proto-Turks. Armenians, of course, do not belong to this. The splendid history of Turkey, an artificial, eulogistic and ideological fabrication, continues to exclude the worst and darkest sides of Turkey's past - such as the systematic extermination of the Armenians.

GENMOCIDE REMAINS GENOCIDE

THIS THE THE MENTALITY OF POLITICANS IN TURKEY WHICH HAS TO CHANEGE NOT THE FACTS ABOUT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

eddy
23 October 2007 at 11:15

TURKEY IS GOOD IN SIMULATING AN AMNESIA.

THERFORE THE HISTORIANS CAN NOT HEAL TURKISH AMNESIA

POLITICANS SHOULD ACT.

Tarks
23 October 2007 at 11:19

The fact is that despite calls for the Armenians to produce the evidence necessary to support their claims of genocide, none has been forthcoming. It's quite simple to make these horrendous allegations when those making them are not called to account for them.

What of the tens of thousands of Turkish civilians murdered by the armed Armenian militia groups during WWI. Who grieves for them?

Mary
23 October 2007 at 11:24

The historians have already responded. 95% of them agree that there was an Armenian genocide. And, as long as Article 301 is in place, no Turk in Turkey can openly debate the events of 1915-1918. Any offer by the Turkish government for a "commission" while Article 301 is in place is pure hypocrisy.

vahe
23 October 2007 at 11:25

If Turkey is realy interested in the well being of armenians, how come they keep their border closed. One simple question to Mr. Tung, what happened to all the armenians who used to live in Eastern part of the Ottoman Empire?

newsnow
23 October 2007 at 11:46

When almost 2 million people of the same ethnic and religious minority group vanish due to starvation, deportation and mass-killings it becomes labeled as Genocide. The History can be re-written, but thankfully it cannot be easily forgotten. Some of the survivors of the Armenian Genocide, albeit old are still around, and others were kind enough to give interviews and have them video recorded before their demise – eyewitness accounts (with some Turkish sources too) are irrefutable. How would a U. S. citizen feel if suddenly Japan will declare that Pearl Harbor attack never really took place, and somehow Americans staged that entire mêlée for some for of vicious conspiratorial motive? Sounds silly, doesn’t it? Well, everyone comprehends those tragic events were indeed the first Genocide of the 20th Century – everyone does, even most Turks do, and it’s time to start calling things by their real name. Anyone who allows to be intimidated by Turkish government and their spineless cronies is a weak, shortsighted and possibly a corrupted individual.

Charles
23 October 2007 at 11:58

I have an old cutting from the Independent (18.03.89) in my files. It was written by William Dalrymple and describes the ongoing destruction of old Armenian churches by the Turkish state. It begins with the following statement -

'In early December 1986 Hilda Hulya Potuoglu was arrested by the Turkish Security Police and charged with "making propaganda with intent to destroy or weaken national feelings". The prosecutor of the Istanbul State Security deemed her offence as meriting severe punishment and asked for between a seven-and-a-half and a 15 year sentence.

Portuoglu's crime was to edit the Turkish edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. In this was included a footnote which read as follows: "During the Crusades the mountainous regions of Cilicia were under the hegemony of the Armenian Cilician kingdom"...'

The article continues with descriptions of forbidden books (including the Times Atlas of World History), archaeological bans, ancient churches being dynamited, and so on.

Let us be clear that the Armenian genocide is NOT a matter for historians. It would seem that there are many people in Turkey today who have actively colluded in the cover-up of this monstrous crime. It should be made clear to Turkey that this is not acceptable.

Harry Istepanian
23 October 2007 at 12:05

Mr Tung, Elie Wiesel repeatedly called Turkey’s denial a double killing, as it strives to kill the memory of the event. The Internatnal Association of Genocide Scholars in the letter dated 05CT07 to Tom Lantos affirmed the following: "It is disingenuous of the government of Turkey to use the red herring of a “historians’ commission,” half of whose members would be appointed by the Turkish government, to “study” the facts of what occurred in 1915. As we have made clear in our Open Letters to Prime Minister Erdogan (6/13/05 and 6/12/06), the historical record on the Armenian Genocide is unambiguous. It is proven by foreign office records of the United States, France, Great Britain, Russia, and perhaps most importantly, of Turkey’s World War I allies, Germany and Austria-Hungary, as well as by the records of the Ottoman Courts-Martial of 1918-1920, and by decades of scholarship. A “commission of historians” would only serve the interests of Turkish genocide deniers.

The abundance of scholarly evidence led to the unanimous resolution of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that the Turkish massacres of over one million Armenians from 1915 to 1918 was a crime of genocide."

eddy
23 October 2007 at 12:42

To the independent historian, it is undisputed fact that Turkey systematically and cruelly liquidated a large part of the Armenian people during the First World War. The exterminating acts perpetrated by the Young Turkish government were in no way limited to the territory of Ottoman Turkey alone, but rather extended all the way to the northwest of Iran (which was briefly occupied by the Ottoman Turks) and only found their provisional end in the Caucasus. No intelligent, seriously-thinking person questions the fact of the systematic annihilation of the Armenians by Turkey. At the time it was happening, even Talaat Pasha – the then Turkish Secretary of Interior and one of those responsible – openly admitted it was going on to foreign diplomats. But even that which was freely admitted by those in charge at the time is now vehemently denied by the Turkish government of today. They even go so far as to claim the victims as the perpetrators, which in itself is a both a result and proof of Turkey's dangerous loss of memory.

eddy
23 October 2007 at 12:47

@TARKS.. let see what Turksish war allay (germany)thinks on Armenian genocide:

Excerpts from the rationale of the cross-party and unanimously adopted "Armenian Resolution" of the German Federal Parliament, which condoms the denial policy of Turkish government and asked Turkey to accept its history.

(Source: Lower House of the German Parliament Printed Matter 15/5689, 15th Legislative Period 15.06.05)

“…

Rationale

90 years ago, on April 24th, 1915, by order of the Young Turk movement steering the Ottoman Empire, the Armenian political and cultural elite were arrested, transported deeper inland and to a large extant put to death. For Armenians throughout the world, this date has become the Day of Remembrance for the expulsion and massacre of the Armenian subjects of the Ottoman Empire which had already begun towards the end of the 19th Century and, however, occurred to an even greater extant during the First World War.

At the start of the war the recruited Armenian soldiers of the Ottoman Army were combined into work battalions and, for the most part, murdered. As of spring 1915, the women, children and elderly were put on death marches through the Syrian Desert. Those among the expelled who did not die or get murdered while underway suffered this fate at the latest in the inhumane camps located the desert around Deir ez Zôr. Massacres were also carried out by special task forces set up specifically for this purpose.

High-ranking Turkish civil servants who voiced resistance to these procedures as well as criticism from the Ottoman Parliament were met by the Young Turk Regime with brutal rejection. Many areas from which the Christian Armenians were expelled were then resettled with Kurds or Muslim refugees of the Balkan Wars…

According to impartial calculations, over one million Armenians were victim to the deportation and mass murder. Numerous independent historians, parliaments and international organizations describe the expulsion and annihilation of the Armenians as genocide.

To date, the Republic of Turkey – the legal successors of the Ottoman Empire – still continues to deny the fact that these actions were systematic in nature and/or that the mass deaths during the resettlement marches and the massacres were committed intentionally by the Ottoman government…Turkish justification is that the Armenians used of force and armed resistance against Turks during the Turkish resettlement measures...

As a whole, the magnitude of the massacres and deportation that occurred in Turkey is still played down and largely denied. This attitude of Turkey is in direct contradiction to the idea of reconciliation which stands at the forefront of the European Union's community of values. Even today historians in Turkey are still not free to deal with the history of deportation and murder of Armenians; despite relaxation of the previously existing liability of punishable culpability, they are still subject to great pressure.

As the main military ally of the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire was likewise deeply involved in these events. From the outset, both the political and the military leadership of the German Empire were fully informed of the persecution and murder of the Armenians.

The files of the foreign office, which consist of reports from the German Ambassadors and Consuls to the Ottoman Empire, document the systematic implementation of the massacres...”

thetruth
23 October 2007 at 14:15

Tung is just another turkish fairytale, genocide denialist. His false article is evidence that he still believes in the master turkish race. He apparently has never heard of The International Association of Genocide Scholars. Or read a history book that wasn't sensored by the turkish government. He disregards and ignores the countless eyewitness. The volumes of archival material. And pretty much the concenses of most all historians. The historians he talks about, all get paid by turkish grants to create doubt specificaly concerning the Armenian Genocide. Outside of turkey and these hanful of "mercenary historians" noone doubts the validity of the Armenia Genocide.

Here in the U.S, there are thousands of pages written in our own national archives concerning the systematic extermination of the indiginious Armenian population living under ottoman rule. Henry Morganthau, the American Ambassador to turkey in 1915, devoted much of his diary to the Armenian genocide. In 1915 he communicated with the state department and wrote "Talaat made no effort to hide the fact that he intends to exterminate the whole Armenian Nation"

Last, tung talks of relocation because of security measures. He just wants us to believe they were bad movers because very few survived the moving process. Apparently children, young women and old people were a big security risk.

To the Newstatesman, when are you going to have David Irving write the next article that the holocaust didn't happen?

Greg21
23 October 2007 at 14:36

Turkey has not changed a bit from the time of the Ottoman Empire. The fact that Hrant Dink gets assassinated in broad daylight and gradually within a year, the process of amnesia sets in, is an example of that. Turkey will do itself a favour by recognizing the Armenian genocide. If Turkey has an air tight argument against the Armenian genocide why resort to threats? The archives in USA, Brittain, France and Germany not to mention manyn others clearly point the finger to Ottoman Turks for the genocide of Ottoman Armenians. The historians you mention have all been paid by Turkey to deny the truth. Turkey's denialist behaviour is being exposed to the world.

artsimon
23 October 2007 at 15:12

This Is the most ridiculous article I have read about what the Turks did to the Armenians… It was Genocide and most viable historians would agree who have done their homework that what the Turks did between 1915 – 1923 was actually an evil act of genocide and killing 1.5 million (starvation camps, rape, gas chambers, killing the males and rapping the women… the only way of survival was to denounce Christianity and become a Turk for the Ottoman empire to spare you… if that wasn’t Genocide than all the people who agree with the writer should be imprisoned along with the Turkish generals….Please do more reserach or stop taking bribes from the Turkish gov.

vakus
23 October 2007 at 15:22

Well, we all know that Turkey is a barbaric country, and it is high time to call it a rogue state, far beyond the civilisation. So no need to discuss here the denialist cannibal propaganda of the turkish so-called diplomat.

But what really matters and is frustrating, that our mass media, like newstatesman.com gives a chance to such a social outcasts like Orhan Tung to write these shameful "articles". What's wrong with u people?

beta
23 October 2007 at 16:32

With such ridiculous and mindless arguments coming from a representative of the Turkish government, I am horrified of the idea that Turkey is being considered for membership in the European Union.

hyeking
23 October 2007 at 17:12

How interesting that the Iranian President in his recent U.S. visit was "grilled" by the president of Columbia University regarding his alleged denial of the Holocaust. However, in this country, President Bush and his administration are aggressively attempting to block passage of a resolution that would identify the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Innocent Armenian civilians as "genocide" because the very same international bully (Turkey) that perpetrated this crime against humanity is now lobbying for the rest of the world to believe its propaganda. Thank you, Mr. Bush!!!

vatan
23 October 2007 at 17:17

I am glad this "Holocaust is a myth", Ahmedinnejad type article is published.It only proves the point, that for people like this writer factual documented history is irrelevant.What is relevant for them(The Deniers), is the paid interpretation and twisting of the history(by "scholars" paid by them) until it meets their ends.I wish the editors of website provide web space for at least short resume of "United States Official Records On The Armenian Genocide 1915-1917" from the Library of Congress.But i won't hold my breath.

Zane
23 October 2007 at 17:34

Shame on the New Statesman giving a racist genocide denier a pulpit from which to spew his poison. The Blue Book was meant to sway public opinion, in that sense it was "propoganda," but that does not mean that it included falsehoods. Lying wasn't necessary, actual reports of what the Turks were doing were sufficient to anger any person with a soul. Anyone wanting to know more about the subject should read Akcam's article "Anatomy of Denial." Interesting how the racist author failed to mention Article 301 in the so-called Republic of Turkey.

Gary
23 October 2007 at 17:49

So let me get this straight: Mr. Tung knows more about genocide than Raphael Lemkin, the Polish-Jewish legal scholar who coined the word "genocide" himself.

As described in Samantha Power's powerful book on genocide, "A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide", Lemkin invented the concept partly on the basis of the extermination of the Armenians in 1915.

Lemkin, who lost 49 members of his family during the Holocaust, said the following in an 1949 interview with CBS on the UN Convention on Genocide:

"I became interested in genocide because it happened to the Armenians; and after[wards] the Armenians got a very rough deal at the Versailles Conference because their criminals were guilty of genocide and were not punished."

The veracity of the Armenian genocide is not subject to debate; it’s settled history. What's in flux is the process of introspection by many Turks to re-learn their own history. And hopefully that will lead to recognition of the genocide by the Turkish state on day.

Kenneth Brendth
23 October 2007 at 17:49

Dude, what idiot gave you this job!?!?! You need to be fired for your insensitive, biased and inaccurate "journalism".

Robert Powell
23 October 2007 at 18:02

Yawn! The author works for the Turkish embassy as Press Counsellor whatever that is. It says so at the bottom of the article. He isn't pretending to be a journalist - he's writing a piece responding to the Armenian ambassador's article. Tung may be hopelessly wrong but no more than you Kenneth Brendth! What a bore!

achilles
23 October 2007 at 18:03

WOW — Orhan Tung you should go and check your DNA and roots, you are most likely an Armenian who was converted into a Turk decades ago. Shame on Turks you days of "Midnight Express" are not going away soon. If anyone has a doubt that Turkish government is currupt ask Billy Hayes.

acommentator
23 October 2007 at 18:08

Why is none of the above commentators willing to answer the open questions as a confident advocate would? Why not encourage evidence? Do they fear it will weaken their belief in the genocide?

The WW1 archives as well as newspaper accounts referred to, mostly of the victors, are evidence yes, but not entirely impartial by definition. All parties at the time had their own agendas and their own propaganda machines. That is why historians try to apply rigorous standards as much as feasible, and not just hearsay even if it is from many people repeating each others’ words for a hundred years.

It is too convenient to overlook the fact that Armenians took up arms against the Ottoman state of which they were citizens. It is too convenient to call the Ottoman state an oppressor, when in fact the Armenians as well as other minorities enjoyed their freedoms for the better part of 600 years. The Armenians sought national independence by taking up arms and using violent means when the Ottoman empire was crumbling, using what would now be called terrorism. That is called treason and was -and in some instances still is- punishable by death even in Europe and USA at the time. So there was an Ottoman backlash. Unlike other “genocide”s, the Turkish Ottoman citizens didn’t wake up one morning and say, “it is time for a final solution to these Armenians”. Unlike other “genocide”s, there was no long standing agenda to wipe out the Armenian race. Turks have first hand family accounts of brutal killings and raping by Armenians and Greeks during that time too. Had the Armenian militants had their way we could be talking about a Turkish genocide by Armenians now. When you take up arms, you play with your life.

That many Armenians died cruel deaths in the Ottoman backlash is regrettably true. That the Ottoman deportation decision was ill conceived and SHAMEFUL is very true. That the primary culprits in that decision were tried is conveniently overlooked. That the crime they committed should be never forgotten so as never to be repeated is all true.

To sum, a complete picture is missing several important aspects, none of which the above commentators address, but which history will forever demand of them and anyone else:

1. Where is the forensic evidence? Surely a million mass killings has to have left some physical evidence, more than the repeatedly used old photos in the media now and then?

2. Why does Armenia and the diaspora fear opening up their archives? How can this "only" serve genocide denial? Even if it were to support the notion that Armenian militia sparked it somehow, that would still not excuse the shameful deportations and deaths.

3. How healthy is it for a conscientious free speech based society to legislate history at all? Even when the subject is correct without the slightest shadow of a doubt, does not legislating beg the question of why political power needs to bear on that truth which should be self evident and well documented? We like to think the political systems of the free world can be trusted, but history strongly suggests this is not a guarantee. Just look at what lies are told to wage what wars. It is free media and free speech that will help remind the truths even when unpleasant so we do not repeat those mistakes. Suffering occasional lies is perhaps the price to pay for the greater truth.

Please consider, truth is not a one way street. Turk

achilles
23 October 2007 at 18:27

Hey Turk: do you remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL-8EIflocM

there is more than enough Forensic evidence everywhere, Mush, Van, Ani, Amasia, Syria, check the following vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d68GlxbVuE. To me you are just another "Turkish Gov. paid" commentator. Mushetsi-Armenian

ayekikan
23 October 2007 at 18:36

Montreal-A group among the world's foremost scholars and academics of genocide studies urged the U.S. Congress to recognize the Armenian Genocide through a petition signed and prepared at McGill University during the Global Conference on Genocide Prevention this past week-end.

"The 20th century has been described as the Century of Genocide. It opened in 1915 with the mass killing of almost 1.5 million Armenians by the Ottoman Empire," Payam Akhavan, S.J.D., chair of the symposium, noted in his opening remarks.

The petition, which asks members of the U.S. Congress to approve a vote for H. Res. 106, calling on the White House administration to recognize the genocide, was signed by Dr. Akhavan, Faculty of Law at McGill University, Professor Frank Chalk, Director of the Montreal Institute for Genocide and Human Rights Studies, Senator Roméo Dallaire, former commander of UN peacekeeping forces in Rwanda, Professor Yehuda Bauer, Holocaust historian and scholar at Yad Vashem and Hebrew University, Dr. Irwin Cotler M.P., Former Minister of Justice and Former Attorney-General of Canada, Dr. Gregory Stanton the President of Genocide Watch, and many others.

"The scholars' reaffirmation of the Armenian Genocide's historical reality and their commitment to justice once more show how Turkey's claims that 'history should be left to the historians' is a cheap political ruse," remarked Dr. Girair Basmadjian, president of the Armenian National Committee of Canada. "Everybody on that petition, as well as Turkey, knows that the true historians have already passed their verdict. We hope the U.S. Congress will now do the same, and thank the symposium's organizers and participants for their hard work," he concluded. "I cannot help but feel pride as a Canadian for the moral stance that the Canadian Senate, Parliament and especially the Government have taken in affirming and reaffirming the historical fact of the genocide."

thetruth
23 October 2007 at 18:38

Tung talks about the diaspora not caring for their country. The reason for the diaspora is because there was a Genocide you racist. Enjoyed freedom for 600 years???Read any history book lately on the sheer brutality of the oppressive ottomans???Spoken like one who still believes he is the master race. Nazi like. As far as the Armenain genocide, I guess turks need a video tape of Talaat saying his intentions otherwise most all historians, most all ambassador accounts, most all archival document including allies of turks such as Austria and Germany at the time of the Armenian Genocide means nothing to them. I believe the noose is tightening around the neck of the Armenian genocide perpetrators. Thats why tung and other baseless deniers babble on sheer nonesense. My dear turks this will not go away ever!

zoro1
23 October 2007 at 19:07

Armenians are the their own worst enemy! If the Ottoman Turks were so bad; why are so many still here; and why do they all continue to follow Christianity. The Ottomans never forced their religion on them. If the Armenians pulled the same stunt (taking arms to help invaders) against say the Serbs; they may have no voice today. Also, it's so sad that the Armenians always paint a picture where all Turks are bad and blood thirsty and they were just innocent law abiding citizens. The truth is the Russians with the help of the Armenians together killed over 1 million Turks; but who cares Turks are not humans (according to Armenians and the French). To all "onsided" Armenians and French: "Please stop all your nagging and complaining; look in a mirror before you sit on your High Horses!"

achilles
23 October 2007 at 19:35

Zoro Jan, we are not complaining or nagging, that's what wifes do (j/k). In my life time, I have only met one Turk—the captial T shows that I have respect 4 Turks—a girl to be exact, it happened by chance, I noticed her name was Turkish, and she noticed that I am Armenian by looking into my eyes. She was the nicest person I have met (this happened in USA at a retail store). As we talked about our nations, she says " I am really sorry for what happened to your people". You know what she was reffering, right?!?!

I am not saying that Armenians didn't kill Turks, we did, but no where near the amount the Turks killed.

We will never forget, this issue is embeded in our DNA, we will fight the Turkish denial day in, day out.

Mushetsi-Armenian

acommentator
23 October 2007 at 19:46

achilles:

Your second link is interesting and worthy of corroboration. That is the sort of documentary that could yield evidence that will serve well the Armenian genocide cause. It also helps that it is being presented by someone who is neither Armenian nor Turk.

The rest of your comments and the first link to Midnight Express may help you vent your hatred for Turks but it shows your purpose is not the noble truth but just Turk bashing and hatred. Nor am I in the employ of any govt. Your assumptions and attitude -which is even more evident in the coarse language preferred by so many Armenians in this and other forums- are not useful for your cause and make it harder for you and all Armenians as well as Turks to make progress.

Remember, hatred only begets hatred, and try not to be right for the wrong reasons.

achilles
23 October 2007 at 20:00

acommentator:

Thanks for the reply but wait a minute? What do you mean by coarse language and preferred by so many Armenians? Wow you got your facts wrong—why don't you go to any forum, specifically go to youtube.com and type in Armenian, choose any video and see how Turks are bashing Armenians. Now type in Turkish and choose any video, do you see any Armenian bashing on Turks? I am not bashing on Turks, I am Xercising my right to speak my mind, the very same right that the Turkish gov. will imprison you for. You are right on with "Hatered only begets hatered". I have no hatered in my heart, I only want the Turks to stop denying the Armenian Genocide—that day will soon come. I am not going to start what Turks did to the Greeks and Kipros.

Meshetsi Armenian

achilles
23 October 2007 at 20:02

Here is another interesting book about the Armenian Genocide: http://www.amazon.com/Knock-Door-Darkness-Armenian-Genocide/...

Mushetsi Armenian

thetruth
23 October 2007 at 20:06

The Armenians might use coarse language sometimes but the turks use coarse deeds like the coward who shot Hrant Dink in back. He coudn't even confront him. Now that coward is concidered a hero in turkey. Same thing happened to the 1.5 million unarmed Armenian men women and children.

achilles
23 October 2007 at 20:13

thetruth1001, exactly, RIP Hrant Dink, now they have imprisoned Hrant's son for kicking article 301 in the balls.

achilles
23 October 2007 at 20:18

Okay, I am out to get Pinkberry with tripple Pomegranate, my Armenian DNA needs it. If you do not know what Pinkberry is, check out this site: http://pinkberry.com/html/pbmain.php

Disclaimer: I know you do not need to see this message, but I thought since I am going to be here for a while, discussing our issue, I might as well let people here know where I am at in case you do not see me reply so quick.

Mushetsi Armenian

zoro1
23 October 2007 at 20:19

To all of the Armenian lobby group members above; why is that what you say is always correct; but anyone that doesn't agree with your views is automatically discredited?? You agree you killed thousands of Turks. See that's what unfortunately happens in war; one side eventually wins. Armenians take up arms with the Russians and kill 1 million Turks; then the Turks fight back. So, since Armenians lost the battle/ they are now looking to win the war 100 years later. They are looking for money and land with the help of the French government. Armenians don't want to talk about the genocide they recently committed on the Azeri Turks. The French don't want to talk about the genocide they committed in Algeria. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Next time you attack a nation of people you were living with; you better hope you have a big enough shoe on your foot. Turks are hated because they were suppossed to be wiped out longtime ago by the Greeks, Armenians, Russians, French, Austrailians, English...the list goes on. However, we are still here and have proved to be a strong nation with importance in the world. Sorry to disappoint; no matter what you accomplish on paper anywhere in the world, your dream of taking Turkish soil is just that, "a dream". Now take all your money and ego and apply it to better the communist nation of Armenia.

achilles
23 October 2007 at 20:22

Zoro Jan, I am out on a break, I will reply to your rebuttal very shortly.

Mushetsi Armenian

achilles
23 October 2007 at 21:04

Some rough calculations:

Armenian population: 10,000,000+- world wide

Turkish population: 70,000,000+- in Turkey

You out number us by: 60,000,000 people and yet we survived and will continue to survive.

All the other things you wrote is plain nonsense.

zoro1
23 October 2007 at 21:26

AchillesJan; or Mesrop;

See you miss calculated again; this seems to be a DNA flaw. World wide ; Turks are over 300,000 million.

Your comment; "All the other things you wrote is plain nonsense."

Here we go again, your views are correct and everybody else's thinking otherwise is plain Wrong!

War of any kind is wrong! That means people can't work things out in a human approach. Unfortunately, invaders, traitors, and terrorists alike only believe in a violent approach. This is where force needs to met with force when a country is defending its own citizens from slaughter.

We can all learn a lesson from any war if we want.

I don't wish for another Turk to die, nor do I wish for another Armenian to die over disputed facts of the past.

You will continue to believe what you want, we will do the same with our view. I hope someday we can all come together a make mends rather than to continue to push away from each other.

After all, we share many of the same things in life, especially the great food!

Peace to all of us; including you achilles

Socrates
23 October 2007 at 22:42

Mr Tung's view and that of the Turkish government needs to be considered against the backdrop of Turkey's long-standing denial of the Armenian Genocide.

In the eyes of the Turkish administration and the Turkish people themselves, the archives in possession of the rest of the world including the USA, France, the European Union, and some 23 other countries are all false, and their collective verdicts determining guilt on the Ottoman leaders are likewise wrong - whereas the archives of the Ottoman empire are held to be true.

In this sense it could be supposed that Mr Tung is right - the Ottoman archives that remain available for inspection would not be expected to contain any reference to a planned genocide, but at most would contain references to mass deportations of Armenians from their homes, to God knows where.

As Mr Henry Morgenthau the American Ambassador to Turkey in 1915 said:

" When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact.

All through the spring and summer of 1915 the deportations took place. Of the larger cities, Constantinople, Smyrna, and Aleppo were spared; practically all other places where a single Armenian family lived now became the scenes of these unspeakable tragedies. Scarcely a single Armenian, whatever his education or wealth, or whatever the social class to which he belonged, was exempted from the order. In some villages placards were posted ordering the whole Armenian population to present itself in a public place at an appointed time-usually a day or two ahead, and in other places the town crier would go through the streets delivering the order vocally." http://tinyurl.com/ywnzrc

In the eyes of the Turkish administration, the American Ambassador was simply making all this up , to deceive not only the President of the USA but also the American people.

The Armenian Genocide is not a debating matter between Turkey and Armenia, nor even between Turkey and the rest of the world - it is a matter for Turkish people to debate amongst themselves.

TurkeyTheBrainwashedNarion
23 October 2007 at 22:47

This mentality is ONLY accepted in Turkey. Doesn't that tell you something? All the Armenians posting here, don't waste your time. These people are BEYOND brainwashed. If someone is determined to not see the truth, he will not. There is nothing you and I can do to change that. Turkish Nation is Brainwashed and that is the bottom line.

Socrates
23 October 2007 at 23:39

A Commentator asks:

“Armenians took up arms against the Ottoman state of which they were citizens”…and therefore the whole race had to be deported and massacred? -

Read what the American Ambassador to Turkey had to say about the so-called Armenian uprising: http://tinyurl.com/yvsddr It will shortly be published in Turkish.

“Where is the forensic evidence? Surely a million mass killings has to have left some physical evidence?” - The evidence is here:

“When the caravans first started, the individuals bore some resemblance to human beings; in a few hours, however, the dust of the road plastered their faces and clothes, the mud caked their lower members, and the slowly advancing mobs, frequently bent with fatigue and crazed by the brutality of their "protectors," resembled some new .and strange animal species. Yet for the better part of six months, from April to October, 1915, practically all the highways in Asia Minor were crowded with these unearthly bands of exiles. They could be seen winding in and out of every valley and climbing up the sides of nearly every mountain - moving on and on, they scarcely knew whither, except that every road led to death. Village after village and town after town was evacuated of its Armenian population, under the distressing circumstances already detailed. In these six months, as far as can be ascertained, about 1,200,000 people started on this journey to the Syrian desert.” – American Ambassador to Turkey 1915.

“Why does Armenia and the diaspora fear opening up their archives?” - All the archives relevant to the Armenian Genocide are in the public domain.

Now let me ask a question: Why do historians refer to Turkey’s Abdul Hamid as the ‘Red Sultan’? No, it has nothing to do with Little Red Riding Hood.

Do a Google search on ‘red sultan’

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=red+sultan

The ‘Red Sultan’ Abdul Hamid organised widespread massacres of Armenians across the Empire in the 1890’s before he was deposed by the Young Turks in 1908. “It was his state policy to solve the Armenian problem by murdering the entire race. The fear of England, France, Russia, and America, was the only thing that restrained him from accomplishing this task. His successors, Talaat and Enver, no longer fearing these nations, have more successfully carried out his programme.” – American Ambassador to Turkey 1915.

No doubt a commission of historians organized by the current Turkish administration would claim that the ‘Red Sultan’ should really be known as the ‘White Sultan’ - such were his good deeds towards the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.

The Turkish government needs to pass a law against 'insulting intelligence' instead of worrying about insulting Turkishness, and drop their genocide denial campaign which nobody believes, and which only makes Turkey look like an Ostrich.

lianchik
24 October 2007 at 01:31

HEY TURKEY!!!

WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THIS WEBSITE...MAYBE IT WIIL GIVE YOU A BETTER IDEA WHO MASACRED WHO

http://www.geocities.com/thegenocides/photos/photos1.htm

tkirac
24 October 2007 at 04:29

Turkish Government has always opted for civilized dialogue over malicious bickering. Turkish and non-Turkish historians have always been welcome to dig into historical documents to investigate real historical events. These have been mostly turned down and not acknowledged by "Diaspora Armenians."

The truth, based on existing impartial documents, is that the events at the turn of the century show a region in turmoil and colonial powers instigating religious and ethnic divisions in order to hasten the break up of a multi-religious and multi-culture based empire.

The preposterous accusation that a "genocide" occurred is against all historical evidence.

THAT IS WHAT IMPARTIAL HISTORY TELLS US!

Socrates
24 October 2007 at 10:27

"The truth, based on existing impartial documents".....

If the Turkish Government has even one 'impartial' document in their Ottoman achives which has been left to them by their predecessors, let those impartial documents be published on the internet for the world to see, instead of merely talking about them - otherwise Turkey should change its name from 'Turkey' to 'Talkey'.

In the eyes of the Turkish government nothing except what they hold to be true can be regarded as 'impartial'.

All the documents held by Governments around the world that provide clear and unequivocal evidence of a genocide, and all accounts handed down by so-called 'genocide survivors' are false, or merely propaganda.

Only the Turkish government is right - all the other Governments including the German government that have passed their own verdicts on the genocide are wrong.

Mr Orhan Tung at the Turkish Embassy would no doubt also dismiss the following German recognition of the Armenian Genocide as 'impartial' and false:

Excerpts from the unanimously adopted "Armenian Resolution" of the German Federal Parliament, which condemns the denial policy of the Turkish government and asks Turkey to accept its history.

(Source: Lower House of the German Parliament Printed Matter 15/5689, 15th Legislative Period 15.06.05) :

"As the main military ally of the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire was likewise deeply involved in these events. From the outset, both the political and the military leadership of the German Empire were fully informed of the persecution and murder of the Armenians. The files of our foreign office, which consist of reports from the German Ambassadors and Consuls to the Ottoman Empire, document the systematic implementation of the massacres...”

Socrates
24 October 2007 at 11:19

Mr Orhan Tung and the Turkish Government wishes to provoke an historical debate on the Armenian Genocide using a committee of historians, but then dismisses outright the works of Viscount Bryce and the historian Mr Tonybee because it does not agree with the Turkish Government's perception of the truth.

Mr Orhan in his article presents a quotation which actually confims the fact of the Armenian Genocide, rather than negates it.

"…Yet at the very time when the agreement (Sykes-Picot Agreement) was being made, I was being employed by His Majesty’s Government in a ‘Blue Book’, which was duly published and distributed as war propaganda. The French Government made use of the Armenians in a different way....

What does it matter if the British and French governments at the time both seized on the 'Armenian Atrocities' as an opportunity to push their agendas under the Sykes-Picot Agreement?

The agreement was concerned with the Allies intention to carve up the Ottoman Empire after the War.

Mr Ohan Tung blames the war-time Allies for using the Armenian Atrocities as propaganda, whereas in fact he should be asking himself how the Allies came across this information in the first place?

msander
24 October 2007 at 12:24

You all seem to forget the fact that armenians lived peacefully for centuries in the Ottoman Empire and they were given the highest posts at the government.

Unfortunately, armenians sided with Russians and Allied Governments during the WWI and started killing Turks hoping to create an Armenian State in the eastern provinces of Turkey although as all historians agree, they never had majority in any Turkish city or town in any area.

Ottomans who were fighting in so many fronts,

had no other choice but deport Armenians who were uprising against their goverment.

You can see these facts in the letter Armenian Prime minister himself wrote in the begginning of the century.

Only the Armenians themselves and their western allies were responsible for what happened to them.

25liveGM
24 October 2007 at 14:43

How come these educated guys could believe the

1,500,000 died? First of all, God must have created at

least 1,500,000 Armenians in Ottoman Empire to make

this true. Official Ottoman censuses clearly documents

that the Armenian Population of the Empire was less

than 1.2 million! Then where are these Armenians in

America and France come from if we killed whole

nation! Or

Where is extra 300,000 coming from?

You guys amazed me! So you say Ottomans were very

systematic, right? If we were be that systematic and

strong, there would be no way we would lose the war.(

WW I ).

Take a look from this side: If you are a nation losing

your power since

1689, gets weaker and weaker, and finally at the 20th

century, all the states under your empire weren't

under your control, plus you fight with RUSSIA,

FRANCE, ENGLAND,GREEKS,ARABS, AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND

AND OTHERS... Even

if you would like to kill 1/3 of that fabrication

number (500,000), you cannot succeed that many.(plus

consider that you do not have enough weapons, you

fight with Italians, French, British, Russians,

Greeks, Australians)

The 1,500,000 killed is a gross fabrication by the

Armenian Diaspora.

In 1915 many hundreds of thousands of Armenian

civilians were deported to the deserts of Syria and

Iraq. They were more than likely to die on the journey

from starvation, exhaustion and attacks by robbers or

irregular fighters.

And now, as being Turkish, why do I have to accept the

thing that has not been occurred?? Deporting people is

genocide, since when? You betray your country,

cooperate with enemy, dress French army clothes and

Russian army clothes and fight against your own

empire, then what should I do? Let myself to be killed

by you…Since when, deporting is called genocide? If my

country was so poor at that time, and you died during

the deportation and we could not bring you the first

aid, which you should have thought before cooperating

with Russians and French against Ottomans! To commit

genocide, you must be as strong as Germany and France,

or UK! Again at that time, it was the weakest, weakest

time of the Ottoman Empire, that is why all the states

already separated or wanted to separate and most

Armenians shot us from our back.

Armenians, or the lie believers, whatever you do,

there is no way we accept for the things that we or

our grandfathers did not do!! YOU CAN NOT CHANGE THE

FACTS!!

Socrates
24 October 2007 at 15:32

MSander states:

"You all seem to forget the fact that armenians lived peacefully for centuries in the Ottoman Empire and they were given the highest posts at the government. "

History tells us that Turkey's Sultan Abdul Hamid - 'The Red Sultan' - took care of the Armenians in 1896 very well.

The successful Armenian deportations carried out by the Ottoman Turkish government was copied by Hitler and led to exactly the same results for the jews.

Armenians were burnt alive in churches, whereas the Germans of course refined the process and built special ovens for the same purpose.

The German government has acknowledged its past, and is now at the Centre of the EU.

Turkey hasn't acknowledged its past, and will never be accepted by any country until it does.

"Then where do these Armenians in

America and France come from if we killed the whole

nation? How come these educated guys could believe that 1,500,000 died? First of all, God must have created at least 1,500,000 Armenians in Ottoman Empire to make this true. Official Ottoman censuses clearly documents that the Armenian population of the Empire was less than 1.2 million! "

And what does the 'official' Ottoman census say about the number of Armenians left in 1916?

I guess the Turkish Government will soon be asking for a 'Committee of Mathematicians' as well as a 'Committee of Historians' to debate the matter, and if the sums don't add up then there could not have been a genocide.

beta
24 October 2007 at 15:53

It's interesting how Genocide deniers can come up with so many versions of history....any version is good enough...even if it''s completely illogical.

It didn't happen....because there are some Armenians that survived (as if the definition of genocide includes absense of survival for the victims). It didn't happen...because Turks died during WWI..(as if these two are mutually exclusive events) ...the best one that I have read ..and this is from a booklet by the Foreign Ministry of Turkey.....even if the Armenian genocide did happen...it was less than 1.5million..and they deserved it because they were helping the Russians during WWI.

Can you imagine how ridiculous you sound when you bring up this arguments against a historic fact? it's like saying..the jews did not suffer under the Holocaust because there are millions of Jews around the world...and Germans died during the war too..and Jews were collaborating with the enemy.

I am amazed how even the Turks who claim to be logical are blinded by their hysteric reaction. They are only interested in the end conclusion...denial. It reminds me with the arguments that the Iranian president made with respect to the Holocaust. He suggested further research on the Holocaust too.

joe
24 October 2007 at 17:35

I think mr. Tung your observations are obviously dumbfounded, your argument is weak with no concrete evidence. I think you forgot that Armenians had been massacred twice before the Genocide of 1915, what will your argument be then. I think this argument armenians fought with the Russian side to combat Turkish power is a weak argument like your article. Read your history books. In 1891 and 1911, there were two genocides preceeding the 1915 genocide. I want to know what your argument would be then. You should realize the power of words and to use them carefully as such you are criminal and hypocrite for writing as disgusting article as this one.

Socrates
24 October 2007 at 17:59

Mr Orhan Tung and the Turkish government appear to have a short memory:

According to Mr Tung:

" After the World War I, the Armenian allegations were investigated between 1919-1922 as part of a legal process against the Ottoman Officials. 144 high ranking officials were accused of “massacres” and deported for trial by Britain to the island of Malta."

Mr Tung omits to mention that the leaders of the CUP were also tried in absentia by a Turkish military tribunal, found guilty of "pre-meditated mass murder", and sentenced to death.

"Pre-meditated mass murder" = Genocide.

The Committee of Union and Progress also killed their own fellow Turks to gain power.

http://tinyurl.com/34q4pb

They assassinated Nazim Pasha and his successor Mahmud Sevket Pasha in order to gain power.

Yet the present Turkish government continues to express surprise that such a gang of murderers could have been responsible for putting an irradicable stain on Turkish history.

That stain has been made even more revolting in the eyes of the world by the Turkish government's campaign of denial.

Reconciliation can only take place if there is a reconciliation with the truth.

TurkeyTheBrainwashedNarion
24 October 2007 at 18:07

There were 2 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire before WWI, today there is what 40-50 thousand (the exact number is unknown-poor people are too afraid to identify themselves as Armenians). Can someone explain to me what happened if it wasn't genocide?? I said it before, I'll say it again.. This mentality is only present in Turkey and it will not last long.

photoline
24 October 2007 at 21:21

Why are the Armenian archives closed? and why are the Armenians afraid of a joint study? If in fact the label is Genocide - will this not come out in the joint study?

My grandfather and all of his relatives were killed by Armenian in Sarikamis (close to Kars) in 1913. This is a great way to seek freedom from the Ottomans right? By killing Turks?

If I was interested in substantiating my claims - I woul dbe more than willing to join any joint study - wha do you have to loose? If you're saying it is Genocide, at least this is your chance to have the opposing party in the same room looking at all evidence. It is simply not believable to say 90% of historians are saying it is Genocide - but I will keep my historical archives closed and the rest of the people will have to accept what I say because I have political power - this is bull.

Pencils
24 October 2007 at 21:58

What an obscene article! I don't know why the New Statesman published this, but maybe it's a good thing to see the depths to which the Turkish propagandists can sink. What a list of ' reputable historians'! 'Mercenary historians' is right: these hacks can always be depended on to come up with a justification for any right-wing cause. Just yesterday I saw Norman Stone on the telly, making the case for a Turkish invasion of Kurdish Northern Iraq. I understand he lives in Turkey now, paid by the Turkish government seemingly. What a loathsome oddball he is! Thatcher's 'favourite historian' - I remember him writing regularly in the Sunday Times in the 80s, justifying America's atrocities in Central America, and occasionally advocating the South American fascist juntas as a preferred model for the UK's future. He has the look about him of someone who was hopelessly damaged by an unhappy childhood ( bullying at school?) and just wants to hurt people, in his small way. I don't know if he's made any pronouncements yet on all the Kurds killed in Turkey in the 90s, villages destroyed etc, but I'm sure he'll tell us that never happened, unless the Kurds make him a better offer - his own oil-well.

Who would have thought that the Bush junta could do something decent - recognising the Armenian genocide? But I'm sure it was from the worst of motives - we'll see!

baristarim
24 October 2007 at 23:23

That a massacre occured in not what is being debated. There is a genuine academic debate by serious historians, anthropologists and Middle East experts within the international community as to whether or not what happened constitutes a genocide. History is messy and replete with moral ambiguity.

I doubt that you or the US Congress are qualified to make a judgement on this case. I don't claim to be an expert either, but I am not the one making the assumption that the atrocities - while tragic - constituted a genocide. Sentiment is one thing, but in fact historical accuracy matters here.

The Turks and the Turkish government have acknowledged countless times that there were widespread massacres of the peoples of Eastern Anatolia - Christians and Muslims alike.

I don't disagree that Turkey could be more transparent on this issue, but their reticence neither undermines nor proves the arguments of those who debate this issue.

The US Congress is not a body that enjoys the respect of the international community or has the capacity to objectively parse the evidence and override the respected and studied opinions on a vigorous debate that has been going on for almost a century.

This is politics pure and simple. Frankly, I am surprised that the Armenian community has agreed to prostitute their supposedly sacred issue, so that a castrated Democratic congress can score political points against George W Bush. It certainly undermines the legitimacy of the claims they espouse to achieve.

The US Armenian ethnic community is small, regionally concentrated and excercises disproportional political influence. The selfish and narrow interests of this tiny community now threaten to further undermine our national interests in a perilous region.

The House Democrats, who have been an utter failure in their ability to curtail the Iraq war, the signature issue of the 2006 campaign, are resorting to cheap back door politics by cynically forcing this resolution.

Those who argue that Democrats lack the capacity to lead during times of foreign crises need no further evidence than this frivolity.

The resolution states that 'the failure of the domestic and international authorities to punish those responsible for the Armenian genocide is a reason why similar genocides have recurred and may recur in the future.'

This is complete nonsense. Surely you are not claiming that the reason the US delayed its involvement in the Bosnian, Rawandan and Sudanese crises is because the US has not yet acknowledged that Armenian deaths constitute a genocide?

How utterly ridiculous.

baristarim
24 October 2007 at 23:44

I don't care how many Armenians try to push with all their might that Turks are cold-blooded genocidal butchers.

NO. 1:

Henry Morgenthau's memoirs (something so often used by those who back the genocide theory) itself claims that;

"The Armenians in Istanbul, Izmir and Aleppo were not harmed."

For ANY NEUTRAL OBSERVER who wanted to see "what the fuss was all about", this should raise a red flag:

These were the three biggest cities in the Empire, Istanbul being the capital. So the Ottomans were committing genocide, but somehow didn't touch the Armenians (most probably the most prosperous among them) who lived right under their nose? WTF? That would be like the Nazis not touching any Jews who lived in Berlin, Warsaw and Frankfurt!!!

WHY?

REMEMBER: (A) massacre(s) becomes genocide when there is a clear indication to kill, and actual killing, of a group for reasons of their ETHNICITY.

As a Turk, I find it extremely weird that Ottomans wouldn't touch any Armenians right under their nose if they were comitting genocide between 1915-17.

Everyone knows that many Armenians died. But it was war and many ethnic groups were killing each other in a moment of history where "might was right".

It is tragic, but there has never been a SOUNDPROOF case for genocide.

AS A TURK, I GIVE YOU MY WORD THAT I WILL BELIEVE IT WAS GENOCIDE WHEN YOU CAN SHOW ME OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT ALSO DEPORTED AND KILLED ARMENIANS IN LARGE SCALE FROM ISTANBUL, IZMIR AND ALEPPO BETWEEN 1915-1917.

In fact, the Armenian population in the very capital, Istanbul, was unchanged between 1914 and 1918.

But until that day, NO WAY JOSE. I will always believe that it was a tragedy and will feel sorry for all the Armenians, Muslims, Turks, Kurds, Azeris, Greeks etc who died during the war - but no genocide.

zhanna
24 October 2007 at 23:58

this is so unbelieveable, so outrageous that even today the turks have the guts to deny the genocide when the whole world is screaming for justice. It is time for the turkish gov't and all the turks to be as humans, and to admit that they have wronged and murdered a whole nation, they have killed our innocence. But I want the turks to remember one things, every dog has its day and your day too should come as JUSTICE ALWAYS PREVAILS!

MAY GOD BLESS MY FELLOW ARMENIANS!

baristarim
25 October 2007 at 00:04

Moreover, there is a huge lack of empirical data to prove the case for genocide.

Someone above claimed that "those who didn't believe the genocide theory would like to see a recording of Talat Pasha giving the order, in unambigious terms, to exterminate the Armenian race".

THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT!!!

How can you expect any honest person with any amount of integriy not to see such proof before accusing someone one of comitting genocide?

As a jurist, I know what it means when people say "beyond a reasonable doubt" used in criminal proceedings instead of "more likely than not" used in civil cases.

That exists for a reason: For someone making the assumption (and the accusation) that a state committed genocide (a criminal act), they need to bring up the proof neccessary to establish so BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, because the risk of a mistaken criminal verdict, and its ramifications, is too great.

To expect people to believe a criminal accusation with any less is unreasonable. I am not going to believe that it was so until I see some HARD-AS-A-ROCK, SOUNDPROOF and DEFINITIVE proof and empiricial data shoved right under my nose.

YES, something such as a recorded audio tape of Talat Pasha giving to the order or an authenticity-proven imperial order comporting the Imperial Seal of the Ottoman Sultan himself giving the UNAMBIGIOUS order to exterminate the Armenian race.

No-one should expect any less. We know that it was a tragedy, but genocide is a different matter.

The head of an Armenian-American lobby group said recently that "we don't need to prove the genocide historically since we proved it politically".

See?

The reason why Armenians are so active in pursuing this is the fact that, contrary to what they claim, they know that the empirical data available doesn't allow for a SOUNDPROOF case, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, that it was a genocide. There has never been such a verdict by an international court. The fact that some might have been tried for massacres is not the same thing: a massacre is not a genocide. We know that there were massacres of all involved during the war.

zhanna
25 October 2007 at 00:20

Unbelievable - turks are what they were a century ago - they will truly never change - the same barbaric race, that only thinks and dreams of drinking the blood of our innocence. But as they say, every dog has its day!

God Bless my fellow Armenians! We must never forget!

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 00:39

Have no doubt that the Ottoman archives speak the truth. They counted the people for taxation purposes. If anything they would count more heads; Ottoman census of 1914 says 1.3 million Armenians lived in Anatolia in 1914.

The head of the Armenian delegation Boghos Nubar said “150,000 volunteered in the Russian Army, 45,000 in the French Army, and 30,000 elsewhere fought on the side of the Allies”. Altogether, this makes 225,000 fighters. Assume each had a mom, dad and 3 siblings; total is: 6*225,000=1.35 million. This leaves no innocent Armenians. But only 700,000 – 800,000 were deported. Patriarch’s records in 1920 claim 645,000 returned back. How can more than existing number of people disappear? Please somebody; give me an account of this 1.5 million innocent Armenians claimed to be killed by Turks.

Let’s assume for a moment that Armenians do not die of natural causes, hundreds of thousands must have died of hunger and disease like millions of the Muslims did. War does that you know. According to Boghos Nubar, after WW1 the number of unaccounted Armenians was below 300,000. In the 60's exaggerated billboards in California stated 600,000. When the Turks ignored them the number went up to 1.5 million. Some even speak of 2 -3 million. Do the Armenian dead multiply?

baristarim
25 October 2007 at 00:46

"Unbelievable - turks are what they were a century ago - they will truly never change - the same barbaric race, that only thinks and dreams of drinking the blood of our innocence" zhanna

Oh boo-hoo-hoo.. It is obvious who is doing the racism here.

Not to mention the real lame soap-opera rhetoric: "Drinking the blood of our innocence"?

WTF?????

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 01:07

Has anyone looked up the UN definition of genocide? It clearly mentions “as such” - meaning, the group must be acted against for being a member of a certain group, not because they go to war. For instance the Jewish doctors were not allowed to operate on Germans, Jewish lawyers could not represent Aryan Germans. In Anatolia, the reverse was true. The Armenians put down Turks. They called them dogs, etc in folk songs, poems, and literature. They still do. They need to be cured of this social disease to hate anything and every thing Turkish.

War is ugly. People die. No matter how sad, not every death is genocide. Warring sides were removed out of the UN definition upon Raphael Lemkin's recommendation. Armenians were obviously at war with the Turks. As sad as it is, civilian deaths caused by Dashnaks’ declaration of war is not genocide. The Dashnaks should face up to their mistake to rebel at the wrong time wrong place. They should be held accountable for the loss of many innocent Muslim and Armenian lives. Instead they are spreading one sided propaganda.

For example millions of Turks died from 1914-1923. May be we should call them genocide as well. Otherwise this would not be humanitarian but one sided, racist, anti-Turkish mentality which is definitely sick.

Raphael Lemkin was only 14 years old in 1915. He has never been to Anatolia. Any opinion he may have reached was based on hearsay. Opinion does not count as proof in the court of law.

The burden of proof lies in the Armenians and they fail to do so. Instead, they try to put the Turks on the defensive. How can one be a denialist without any proof of guilt?

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 01:13

Brutal rape was applied to Turks while drawing them out of the Balkans. My great grandmothers family joked because they left her favorite meal on the stove. They droned on them unexpectantly. Suddenly, everyone got on their horses. Women rode towards Anatolia, men rode their horses in the opposite direction. They had no time to turn off the stove. They still have the title deeds to their 220 acre farm. They had been cultivating those lands for centuries. War is ugly!... Any war sounds like a genocide if the dead of only one side is counted. Oh sorry, it is genocide only if the losing side is Christian.

beta
25 October 2007 at 01:15

Gen. Mehmet Vehib, the celebrated Turkish army commander of the Third Army, wrote in 1919: "The massacre and destruction of the Armenians and the plunder and pillage of their goods were the results of decisions reached by the Central Committee (of Turkey's ruling party)."

So why the endless genocide denial by Vehib's successors ??? Why is it that the Turks have selective amnesia with regards to the Armenian Genocide???

I realise that admitting what your grandparents and great-grandparents did would be to acknowledge the most shameful act any people can commit, but it's the only thing to do if you claim to be ready to join the European Union.

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 01:15

About Genocide Scholars, It seems they are judging a 19th century event with 21st century standards. Relocation and deportation were means of war tactics then. French used the same method on the Algerians 15 years after WW1. Americans used it during WW2 against their Japanese Americans - and they were not even rebels. There was only a suspicion of rebellion, just because Japan entered WW2.

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 01:25

Vehib does not say the Armenians were not at war with the Turks at the time of their plunder and destruction of their material. War is ugly. People die at war. If your leaders draw you into war, then innocnet masses die. Look up Saddam, and million Irakis dead.

As a human Vehib feels sorry for the enemy. Not every death is genocide. Your grandparents were not cherry picking at the time.

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 01:27

Armenians are evading legal court battles because they know they have no case? Why are they trying to silence the Turks with laws of denial? We all saw how aggressive they became just because PBS taped a video discussion somewhat balancing the subject. Istanbul Patriarchate, His Holiness Mesrob Mutafyan was not allowed to give a conference in Washington DC. Oh, is there a law 301 in the USA? No one can mention the word Turk in Armenia without a negative attached to it. These genocide scholars perform only in one sided conferences. They shy away from Turkish academicians like measles. The only reason they wish to form some resemblance with the Jewish case is for embezzling hefty reparations from Turkey.

There is no proof of Armenian case. There cannot be denial of a non-existent/unproven event. If a law is passed to silence the Turks, so much easier it will be to spread one sided stories. There are scenarios, and there are propagandists trying to theorize to reach their end goal. There is only belief among the brainwashed circles. Just reading the posts here, I see no facts presented to prove that what happened could be other than warring parties killing each other.

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 01:36

How fair is it to personally attack a scientist who disagrees with you? Many have posted insults and attacked the media for publishing this article. Why don’t you for a change try to disprove the facts stated here.

You guys wish to hurry off with this law, so that you can silence the Turkish side.

beta
25 October 2007 at 01:42

There is no excuse for genocide...the Holocaust happened during a war, but you don't see Germans using it as an excuse. Genocide is not excusable...it's not excusable if it happened in the 19th century..it's not excusable in the 20th century and it's not excusable now in Darfur. Genocide is not excusable...period. Stop hiding your head in the sand!!

baristarim
25 October 2007 at 01:42

Did you know that the first head of the Turkish Language Association of the Turkish Republic, named in 1932 by Ataturk was an Armenian by the name of Agop Dilaçar?

Search it...

Yeah, those genocidal Turks, right?

So let me get this straight:

Ottoman Turks commit genocide against the Armenians in 1915, but by the time we reach 1932 there are so many Armenians left around (the ones in the biggest cities were never even touched) and the relations between the "genociders" and "genocidees" became suddenly so good that an ethnic Armenian came to head the Turkish LANGUAGE Association???

I never heard of an ethnic Turk heading the Armenian Language Association in Armenia - and judging by some of the comments coming from certain Armenians, I truly wonder which way the true racism goes...

baristarim
25 October 2007 at 01:46

"There is no excuse for genocide" beta

You are right - except I don't think that it was a genocide. Period

You cannot expect me to believe that it was so with a straight face when the Armenians in the three biggest cities of the Empire, right under the nose of the Ottoman soldiers and politicians were not even touched. What kind of a friggin' genocide is this???

In 1932, the first president of the Turkish Language Association was an ethnic Armenian, Agop Dilaçar. What kind of a friggin' genocide is this that Turks name an Armenian; but moreover, an Armenian ACCEPTS such a job having gone through a genocide?

There are holes in the genocide theory the size of the Ozone hole, whether you like it or not..

People died, but there is a clear line between anything that might have happened, however tragic, and a genocide my friend...

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 01:48

You ought to refer to Christian media press with a grain of salt because here is what George M. Lamsa, a missionary well known for his research on Christianity had to say about the level of exaggeration of Armenian destruction in his book "The Secret of the Near East", The Ideal Press, Philadelphia (1923), pg. 133; "In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed and the bishop killed. It is a well-known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies." Ambassador Morgenthau relied on his Armenian tarnslators for all information he sent to USA.

The Blue Book is full of Christian missionaries stories. The rest were taken directly form Ambassador Morgenthau, whose sources I mentioned above. Also, Arnold Toynbee admitted in his book later that Blue Book was written for war propaganda. If it was a reliable source, would the British government refuse calling it a geno?

The UN does not label it geno!...

Only, hand picked people who need a title like geno scholar swallow the Armenian claims hook line and sinker. Taner Akcam, someone who was jailed for his leftist anarchist activities in Turkey can be fooled into being a mouthpiece for Turkey's enemies.

beta
25 October 2007 at 01:50

The latest news is that the Ozone hole is shrinking...and hopefully soon the platform that Genocide deniers use to spew their hate. Stop hiding your head in the sand and join the 21st century.

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 02:02

Jewish Holocaust took place during WW2. But they were not collaborating with the enemy. They did not pose a military threat to Germans. In Turkey, Muslims of Van were butchered by Armenians. Russian Army entered the city without any resistance. The Russian Tsar thanked the Armenians for their collaboration.

The Jews were forced to wear signs on their lapel. There was belittling of the Jews and the gypsies, etc. Armenians on the other hand were in the parliament. The Sultan's money was in the hand of the Armenians. His doctor was an Armenian. Actually, Armenians were richer than the Turks all over.

Another fact, the cencus bureu was headed by an Armenian. So, you cannot object to the 1.3 million figure. Also, an Armenian was in charge of the Ottoman Archive during war tribunals which were held following WW1. So, you cannot say the genocide evidence was washed away.

There never was an order to kill. There was an order to relocate - not even deportation. They ordered to relocate them within the Empire in a zone where they would not pose a threat to the warring Turkish army.

Armenians obviously knew there were no orders. Othervise why would they commit forgeries?

baristarim
25 October 2007 at 02:03

beta,

an Armenian commentator above had said that he and other like-minded Armenians were not going to go away with this..

Fair enough.. I am aware that many Armenians suffered.

However, know also that we are not going away either since we also know what we know (things like what I mentioned above) and that many Turks also suffered.

Instead of casting aside Turks as brainwashed zombies who need the intervention of the US Congress or the Armenian diaspora to bring them back to life, know that many Turks are extremely well-educated and world-aware, that Turkey is a huge country which is developing extremely fast, along with its huge middle-class.

The days when the Armenian diaspora could ride its horse the way it wished is over, and we are not going away either.

We are well aware of the story, the politics and history behind it, the past, present and future. We DO sympathize deeply with the suffering of Armenians as well as the suffering of everyone else during the war. But this 'genocide' matter is a different thing.

This issue only serves to address the identity issues of the Armenian diaspora. If you ever go to Armenia, you will see that most people there have already moved on. And an editorial in an Armenian newspaper recently was criticizing an official of the Dashnak party who had said something like "we want to keep the wounds of the genocide open for political reasons", by saying "every nation wants to close wounds at some point and move on".

Food for thought my friend... :)

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 02:04

you know that you are a mouthful? I have no time to waste with shrewd word slingers. Show me some logical explanation at least, if you cannot turn up any evidence.

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 02:08

Why not bring up the genocide perpetrated on the Azeri Turks by the Armenians in 1991? Let the US Congress recognize this fresh genocide. Oh no, the perpetrators are Christian, so it cannot be labeled as genocide. Only if the victims are Christian - better yet the first Christian State of the World!..

beta
25 October 2007 at 02:12

"..many Turks are extremely well-educated and world-aware, that Turkey is a huge country which is developing extremely fast.."

Then stop talking like Ahmadinejad and face your history the way most civilized nations are expected to.

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 02:19

Armenians should face the facts and make peace with their history instead of repeating slogans taught at their Holy locations.

In 1900's Armenian Churches and schools had become weapons depots. Now, they are using media as weapon. They wish to deprive their opponents of columns to defend themselves. What happened to the frist amendment 'every man has the right to defend himself'?

Why not discuss freely in open debate like the Turks suggest if you believe you have a water tight case? Why pressure US legislators to legitimize unproven allegations? Oh big daddy please pin down my opponent on the ground so that I may beat him up as I wish.

baristarim
25 October 2007 at 02:21

"face your history the way most civilized nations are expected to"

Yeah, you should say that to Armenia who ethnically cleansed Nagorno-Karabagh from the Azeri Turks as recently as fifteen years ago, not by some defunct state centuries earlier.

I know, and you also very well know, that this whole Ahmedi brouhaha is just lame demagoguery and rhetoric, so get over it.

Or are we "drinking the blood of your innocence" as zhanna said earlier? :)))

Mike - Cardiff
25 October 2007 at 10:09

The denial of genocide is a constant festering of the wound.

Genocide denial should not be seen as an assault on the history of one particular group.

In the case of the Holocaust, it's denial repudiated reasoned discussion, the way the Holocaust, itself, engulfed all civilization.

Holocaust denial like anti-Semitism itself, was and sadly still is an attack on Jewish history and as such is an attack on the most basic values of a reasoned society.

So it is with the denial of the Armenian genocide

Mike - Cardiff

PS for those interested in reading contemporary documents recording those dreadful events - these may be found on www.rememberarmenia.co.uk

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 22:39

Dear Mike-Cardiff: You are elevating Armenian allegations to the level of Jewish Holocaust as if it was proven in a serious court like the Nuremberg Trials. there cannot be denial of something unproven. Let alone any evidence, there is no logical explanation. There is only say-so of biased sources.

Also, it does not fit the UN Definition. Parroting of genocide allegations are pestering wound on the Turks heart. It is an attack on our national pride and as such is an attack on the most basic values of a reasoned society. Any war sounds like a genocide if the dead of only one side is counted.

therewasnogenocide
26 October 2007 at 00:24

Some of you are so brain washed that you can't even recognize the truth when you see it THERE WAS NO ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. Just look at the facts with a simple google search...there are thousands of pictures of armed Armenian soldiers with Russian guns! What were they planing to do with those guns? Go deer hunting?

Get real...lets get armed and establish our own state...yea right! What a cry baby these people are...it's their clergy that perpetuates this hatred by the way...if there was no genocide Armenian churches would be all broke!!!

aguylikeanyother
26 October 2007 at 01:50

The thing about history of war, is that it is most frequently written by the victors, and seasoned to leave a favorable taste in the mouths of the victorious. This is true of any historical account of any war.

Do you think this preposterous? Ask yourself what your exact thoughts were when you heard of the most recent, near global conflict. Boil it down, and I'm certain it will be along the lines of "Is this really nessecary?" War historians and or propagandists already have the answer explained for us, before we can come to our own conclusions, or find the questions that leaders fear when moving any nation to war with another. The answer on either side of any conflict has to stem from "we are right, we are in the right, and we have been right all along." How else can any person throw their support behind violent conflict? Do you truly believe that any and all soldiers are irrational, violent and blood-thirsty from birth? Trained to commit any act of attrocity unflinchingly, without remorse or after thought? Or that all people throw their support behind any and all decisions that a leader they have and will never likely meet, decides for them?

To gain the support of the people, leaders make it someones full time job to make sure that the people believe what is happening is the right thing to do. Or the only choice left. Wether the case is such, is not for me to say.

War is ugly and tragic, and is an occupation of violence, combat and death. Even the most decorated soldiers bear shame for deaths they have been party to. Even the leaders of nations need to be provoked to move their armies, and most often with a heavy heart and stained soul.

I am neither Turk or Armenian, but I know Turks and Armenians, and have heard of past conflicts from both sides. From all the tales of slaughter I have heard, I've been able to draw some observations that blanket both sides.

First, the genocide that both sides speak of is learned and not experienced. And what is learned is hatred. From a young age, this hatred is passed down, and will continue to be disseminated for many generations to come, and that forgiveness of past transgressions is a sign of weakness, shame, and a slight to every ancestor that fought, suffered or died from this conflict.

Secondly, both sides of this conflict want it to be over, nearly a century after it's end. Many people in both communities have lost family and loved ones arguing over who has the right to be more angry about it.

And finally, with no insult meant, the Ottoman empire is no more, and the Soviet Union has fallen. (both having touched these lands) What remains are two independant nations. Both with rich cultures of language, religion, food, dance, song, literature, tradition, architecture and above all else, fierce pride in who they are as a people. I hope that I can say this point about all the Armenians and Turks that have posted here.

And lastly, that everyone from that region hopes that in their lifetime, that they will be able to look into the eyes of their children and grandchildren, and tell them, "A long time ago, there was a world war, and we fought and hated our neighbours bitterly for generations, but that is over now. And that hatred is gone from our people forever."

The difficulty of this debate, is that so many people are trying to rationalize, defend, or justify the decisions and actions of leaders that have been dead for upto a centruy. Leaders of todays world fear to tread into the debate, either for fear of what their own involvement may have been (and what scrutiny of modern investigative techinques may bear), or the ramifications of "drawing lines in the sand" will bring to their door, for a tragedy that unfurled in the adolescency of the 20th century. But they do so to try to help heal this wound. (to what degree of success is questionable)

The real tragedy is that the only ones that can heal this wound are the two parties that share a border. And when the only thing you are tought about this scar is that it hurts still because of the other, how can anybody expect anything other than arguement?

After reading this, let's all acknowlege the progress that has already been made in healing these peoples.

Although the most obvious thing is the ongoing arguement, look how many more Turks and Armenians are able to talk about this instead of fight about it. For generations, each has been taught that they are right, they are in the right and they have been right all along. It will take generations to come to learn a new way. Peace is possibe, please, don't abandon hope.

Lazlee
26 October 2007 at 02:30

The brazenly RACIST comments left by Armenians are shocking. It is equally shocking they have not been soundly condemned. Promoting racism and ethnic hatred like this is evil.

What civilized jurisprudence permits indicting a nation of crimes against humanity with more than half of the evidence concealed? Or, declaring a nation’s guilty without due process of law?

England, France, Russia and the U.S. still conceal archival material about events in southeastern Anatolia during WWI. It is alarming and suspicious that Armenia still refuses access to its archives, and without condemnation by other nations—shockingly, not even by those passing judgment in “genocide proclamations.” That the Armenian Diaspora uniformly supports concealing Armenia’s archives documenting their history should raise grave concerns.

Armenians demand free speech, but shout down any who dare to state a true fact: this issue is contested. They say no one has the right to speak this truth. The EU lectures Turkey to allow freedom of speech, while France and Switzerland pass laws criminalizing statements disputing genocide claims—does this hypocrisy not bother anyone?

The holocaust perpetrated by during WWII cannot be compared to what occurred during WWI. Armenian genocide claims are tied to Ottoman relocation orders.

However, Armenian revolutionary leader Garo Armen writes that over 160,000 Armenians joined the Russian army and fought against the Ottoman regime BEFORE any relocation order issued (see http://books.google.com/books?id=4XYMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=why%...). He admits Armenian revolutionary groups refused to join the Ottoman regime when asked before WWI began, instead Armenians openly joined Russia against the Ottomans.

What source states that European Jews rose against Germany before WWII to form Israel in the heart of Germany? Please cite one if you can.

Armenians have spent millions of dollars in a 30 year global effort to obtain parliamentary proclamations of genocide because they cannot press their claims in a court of law while concealing half the evidence.

Is this a pursuit of the truth? Or, a pursuit of unadulterated vengeance and restitution of lands that Armenian revolutionary forces could not obtain by conventional war?

And, how have European parliaments allowed themselves to become such unquestioning puppets in this madness?

Balkaci
26 October 2007 at 12:00

It seems that 100 years of Armenian Propaganda paralised the basic logical reflexes of most people.

As a Turkish citizen I declare that I will accept the so called genocide:

1. When Armenians can show a single Armenian mass grave. Not much I only ask for a single mass grave.

2. When the Armenians show a single Ottoman document oredering mass killing of the Armenians. Not much ony one. Please do not come up with the forged "andonian documents"!

3. When the Armenians explain why they do not go an international court to end this but instead resort to endless racist propaganda.

4. When the Armenians explain why Armenians in Izmir, istanbul were left alone. Why Katholic and protestan Armenians were left alone. Why in 1916 a new law letting Armenian to return their homes and claim their property was issued

5. When the Armenian explain why the ministery of commerce and ambassador to England was Armenian till 1914 if there was a Nazi style racial hatered.

5.When the Armenians explain why there were 16 armenian senators in the Ottoman senate in 1915 if there was a Nazi style racial hatered.

7. When the Armenians explain why Bogos nubar pasa (aprominent Armenian leader) was offered a chair in 1914 but he rejected?

8. When the Armenians explain Why they had to notoriously forge documents (andonian documents) and pictures.

9. When the Armenians explain Why they had to kill 44 Turkish diplomats.

10. When the Armenians explain Why they had to plant bombs to Stanford Shaws house (a prominent historian that rejects Armenian claims). Why they had to treaten Gilles Verstain (another prominent historian that rejects Armenian claims) with death.

11. When the Armenians explain why 527.000 Turks slayed by Armenian Volunteers in the Russiann Army and Armenian insurgents does not matter.

12. When the Armenians explain why the initial Armenian loss figure was 600.000. but then first inflated to 800.000 now to 1.5 mil.

13. When the Armenians explain why they show Russian soldiers pictures with their victims and present it as Turkish soldiers.

14. When the Armenians explain Why they show pictures from Lebenon famine and present it as genocide photos.

.......

Balkaci
26 October 2007 at 12:11

Ah a final one

15. When they explain what these newspaper articles that document Armenian Treason, Rebelion and atrocities mean?

http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/09/1961-new-series-i...

edd
26 October 2007 at 15:21

INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS

April 6, 2005

Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:

We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an "impartial study by historians" concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I. We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:

On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens - an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years. The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey's wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.

The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:

1. Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944,cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.

2. The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

3. In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world's foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.

4. 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the "incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide" and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.

5. The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.

6. Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas's Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.

We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide - how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history. We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called "scholars" work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide.

We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participant in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.

Sincerely,

Robert Melson

Professor of Political Science

President, International Association of Genocide Scholars

Israel Charny

Vice President, International Association of Genocide Scholars

Editor in Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide

Peter Balakian

Donald M. and Constance H. Rebar Professor of the Humanities

Colgate University

Etienne
26 October 2007 at 17:37

I personally don't really care about what any historian says or what Turks say. I listen and trust one voice only, which the voice of my granparents, and the granparents of my other Armenian friends. I think of this situation very pragmatically; if my great grandfather is the only survivor of the slaughter from his village, and nearly every Armenian in the world can tell the stories of the great grandparents and their ordeal, doesn't it plainly make sense that a genocide took place. I truely can't see how my ancestors (farmers, sheep herders in the mountains of Baceh) were collaborators with the Russians or that they deserved to be pulled out of their homes and shot or put to the march. On a human level, I am in shock that so many Turks deny the Ottoman government's systematic killing of the Armenians. I've never experienced such blindness. At the end of the day, history can be twisted around and argued over etc. ect. and I'm sure that all holocaust deniers can come up with some great arguements that some people will support, but talk to the people, the survivors and their pains. How they, because of their religion or ethnicity, were brutally killed in a systematic fashion. Armenians around the world don't fight for their ancestors because they have nothing better to do. This is a long struggle for justice that we believe our ancestors deserve, for the sake of humanity and for the sake of our people.

Socrates
26 October 2007 at 21:58

MontrealTurk

Think for yourself rather than get confused with all the infomation surrounding the Armenian genocide.

FACT 1: The Turkish government in 1915 was led by the 'Three Pashas' http://tinyurl.com/38orsf

FACT 2. The Committee of Union and Progress was their party which came to power. In order to come to power they assassinated Nazim Pasha and his successor Mahmud Sevket Pasha - in other words they were prepared to kill their own fellow Turkish countrymen in order to gain control of the country. These were the type of leaders running Turkey in 1915, so we are already dealing with a bunch of murderers, never mind the Armenians.

FACT 3: The deportations. Turkey does not deny carrying out deporations of the Armenians, because they were regarded as possible insurgents.

FACT 4. The deportations of men, women and childen were not to some holiday destination beside the seaside, but to the Syrian Desert, some hundreds of miles away. Naturally, very few survived the journey which they had to make on foot.

Now draw your own conclusions.

Quote:

At first the Government showed some inclination to protect these departing throngs. The officers usually divided them into convoys, in some cases numbering several hundred, in others several thousand. The civil authorities occasionally furnished ox-carts which carried such household furniture as the exiles had succeeded in scrambling together. A guard of gendarmerie accompanied each convoy, ostensibly to guide and protect it. Women, scantily clad, carrying babies in their arms or on their backs, marched side by side with old men hobbling along with canes. Children would run along, evidently regarding the procedure, in the early stages, as some new lark. A more prosperous member would perhaps have a horse or a donkey, occasionally a farmer had rescued a cow or a sheep, which would trudge along at his side, and the usual assortment of family pets - dogs, cats, and birds - became parts of the variegated procession. From thousands of Armenian cities and villages these despairing caravans now set forth; they filled all the roads leading southward; everywhere, as they moved on, they raised a huge dust, and abandoned débris, chairs, blankets, bedclothes, household utensils, and other impedimenta, marked the course of the processions. When the caravans first started, the individuals bore some resemblance to human beings; in a few hours, however, the dust of the road plastered their faces and clothes, the mud caked their lower members, and the slowly advancing mobs, frequently bent with fatigue and crazed by the brutality of their "protectors," resembled some new .and strange animal species. Yet for the better part of six months, from April to October, 1915, practically all the highways in Asia Minor were crowded with these unearthly bands of exiles. They could be seen winding in and out of every valley and climbing up the sides of nearly every mountain - moving on and on, they scarcely knew whither, except that every road led to death. Village after village and town after town was evacuated of its Armenian population, under the distressing circumstances already detailed. In these six months, as far as can be ascertained, about 1,200,000 people started on this journey to the Syrian desert.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/ywnzrc

Lazlee
26 October 2007 at 22:44

The First Shot

By Prof. Justin McCarthy

University of Louisville

[O]ne incontrovertible fact that is never mentioned is —Armenians died because of conflicts started by Armenians. The Turks responded to Armenian attacks. Sometimes the Turks overreacted; sometimes they acted out of revenge, sometimes the actions of Turks and Kurds were wrong. But the Turks did not start the bloodshed. They did not start the long conflict between Armenians and Muslims that began in the 1790s. They did not start the conflict between Turks and Armenians in World War I.

In 1796, was it Turks who attacked Armenians? No, it was Armenian rebels who allied themselves with the enemies of their country.

In 1828, it was not the Turks who attacked the Armenians. It was the Armenians who took the homes and farms of the Turks.

In 1878, was it the Turks who attacked the Armenians? No, it was Armenian rebels who once again helped the Russian invaders. It was Armenians who oppressed the Turks of Erzurum.

In the 1890s did the Turks first attack the Armenians? No, it was Armenian revolutionaries who first attacked the Turks.

In 1909 did the Turks first attack the Armenians? No, it was

Armenian revolutionaries who began to attack Muslims.

In 1915, did the Turks first attack the Armenians? No, it was Armenian rebels who seized Van and killed Van’s Muslims. It was Armenians who raided Muslim villages and killed Muslims on the roads. It was Armenians who killed Ottoman officials, destroyed Ottoman Army communications, and acted as spies, guerillas, and partisan troops for the Russians.

In 1919 was it the Turks of Baku who first attacked the Armenians? No, it was the Armenians who attacked the Turks.

Some will argue that the actions of the Armenian rebels were justified, because they were not properly governed by the Ottomans. It is true that in many periods of history Ottoman Eastern Anatolia was poorly ruled. But it is also true that the time of Armenian rebellion was also the time when Ottoman rule was greatly improving. Nineteenth century reforms, begun by Mahmud II, passing through the Tanzimat period, and culminating in the reforms of the Committee of Union and Progress, had improved governmental control in the East. It often was this improvement that caused Armenians such as those in Zeytun to revolt, because a stronger central government collected taxes more efficiently.

At the time of the Armenian revolts life was becoming better. The exception to this occurred in the regions that suffered due to Russian invasion and expulsion of Muslim peoples, and those Russian actions had been supported by the Armenian nationalists. The Armenian nationalists had themselves and their Russian friends to blame.

Whatever the reason for the Armenian revolts, reaction from the Ottomans and local Muslims was justified. Muslim excesses, like Armenian excesses, were never justified, but opposition to the Armenian revolt was morally and politically necessary. The Armenians who rebelled were a minority that planned to dominate a Muslim majority. It was the duty of the sultan’s government to fight against such an injustice.

Lazlee
26 October 2007 at 22:47

What the Armenians don't tell you:

ARMENIANS with the aid of Russia PLANNED TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE southeatern Anatolia of the overwhelming majority Ottoman muslim population to form a "Greater Armenia" for the minority Armenian population (approx. 17% of the population).

.

That is why the Armenian and Russian archives concerning this matter remain closed...

Lazlee
26 October 2007 at 22:53

Fiction: deporations of the Armenians, because they were regarded as possible insurgents.

FACT: 160,000 Armenians joined Russian forces in 1914, guided and fought with the Russian military to defeat the Ottoman Empire.

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