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Spies and their lies

David Rose

Published 27 September 2007

British intelligence has long used clandestine "deniable briefings" to release information real and false to tame hacks including David Rose...

My secret life began, as if scripted by P G Wodehouse, with an invitation to tea at the Ritz.

The call came at the end of the first week of May 1992. I was the Observer's home affairs correspondent, and at the other end of the line was a man we shall call Tom Bourgeois, special assistant to "C", Sir Colin McColl, the then chief of the Secret Intelligence Service. SIS (or MI6, as it is more widely known) was "reaching out" to selected members of the media, Bourgeois explained, and over lunch a few days earlier with McColl, my editor, Donald Trelford, had suggested that I was a reliable chap - not the sort, even years later, to betray a confidence by printing an MI6 man's real name.

Would I like an informal, off-the-record chat? You bet I would. "I make no apologies for the cliché," Bourgeois said, "since we do need a way to spot each other. I will be in the lobby, with a rolled-up copy of the Times."

Over the eclairs and Darjeeling a day or two later, Bourgeois explained that while the service - "the Office", as it is invariably termed by insiders - had always had a few, very limited contacts with journalists and editors, it now felt the need to put these arrangements on a broader and more formal basis. After eight decades in which the very existence of MI6 had been an official secret, the Tory prime minister, John Major, had just avowed it in the House of Commons for the first time - part of a process of incipient glasnost, Bourgeois said.

From time to time, he went on, it might be possible to "give me a steer", and if things worked out we might progress from meeting for tea to luncheon. Of course, he would be extremely constrained as to what he might ever be able to say about real, individual spy cases. If potential MI6 sources started to think their handlers might start blabbing about them to the papers, the Office's work would soon become impossible. Nevertheless, there would be things I might find interesting that would not compromise sources or security. Anyway, here was his number.

As a youngish, ambitious hack, I was enthralled. Bourgeois, a tall, slim man with an air of effortless urbanity, seemed to exude clandestine glamour - and future scoops. He was also refreshingly upfront about why the Office was taking steps to open up; as I put it in a somewhat breathless Observer feature that weekend, with the end of the Cold War, it recognised "its place in society" was going to change. "For the first time, the service is aware that it needs to protect its image, and that as it prepares to move into new and expensive postmodernist offices on the south bank of the Thames, it needs public relations." Or, to put it more cynically, it needed the media to trumpet its continued usefulness, lest the Treasury respond to the vanishing of the Soviet threat by slashing its budget.

Even then, the conditions that Bourgeois laid down struck me as odd, and perhaps a little onerous. Our conversations would not merely be off-the-record, and hence attributable in print to an unnamed MI6 official. In public I would have to pretend they had never happened, and if I wanted to quote or paraphrase anything Bourgeois said, I would have to use a circumlocution so vague as to make it impossible for any reader to realise that I had spoken to someone from the Office at all. Should I breach these conditions, Bourgeois made clear, I could expect instant outer darkness: the refusal of all future access. MI6, in other words, would maintain a priceless advantage, a quality regarded as essential in intelligence operations of many kinds - what spies call "plausible deniability". And if, heaven forfend, the service told me something that turned out to be mistaken, or even tried to plant sheer disinformation for who knows what purpose, there would be no comeback, no accountability. I could put up, or shut up.

At the time, I pushed my misgivings to the back of my mind, accepting Bourgeois's assurance that eventually MI6 would like to have an ordinary public press office like the Home Office or Department of Health. After all, as he pointed out, "the friends" across the Atlantic, the US Central Intelligence Agency, had long had such a bureau - an entire public affairs division - without apparent harm.

Fifteen years later, this promised development has not come to pass, and both MI6 and MI5, the Security Service (whose deniable press officer I also came to know), maintain exactly the system that Bourgeois described at the Ritz.

Every national paper and broadcasting outlet has one - and usually, only one - reporter to whom each agency will speak, provided they observe the niceties. For these fa voured few, there will be access likely to grow as the journalist proves his or her "worth", along with considerable perks.

One of the things that made me uneasy about my lunches with MI5 and MI6, which usually took place at very expensive restaurants, is that, in a reversal of usual journalistic practice, the agency men insisted on paying, often with wads of cash, presumably to protect their "cover". Later, there were boozy dinners at headquarters with C or MI5's director general, flanked by their brightest and best; briefings not just from the deniable PR man but officials involved with operations; and, most useful of all, a mobile phone number in case of urgent need at evenings and weekends. (To my chagrin, I never got as far as one reporter colleague who was plied with champagne and strawberries as a guest of MI6 at the centre court for the Wimbledon men's semi-final.)

Underpinning the link between the spies and coalface hacks is further contact with editors. As befits editors' status, the spooks try a little harder to impress them. One editor told me how, a few weeks after he first occupied his chair, he was asked to lunch with the then MI6 boss, Richard Dearlove. Not for him a taxi, or a frisk by security in order to get in: his hosts sent a limo to pick him up, then whisked him from Britain's most secret underground car park direct to C's suite.

Full disclosure: both agencies decided to stop speaking to me several years ago, in circumstances that at first I found infuriating. (Quite why MI6 cut me off, I never found out, but I have been told that MI5 objected to several interviews I carried out with Britons released from Guantanamo Bay who said that MI5 staff had been complicit in their treatment and interrogation while in US custody. It wasn't that this was untrue, but it was apparently regarded as "deeply unhelpful".)

This article is not, however, the product of sour grapes. It is my honest belief that the way Britain's spooks deal with the media has simply become untenable, gravely damaging journalists and spies alike.

Questionable motives

In 2004, the parliamentary intelligence and security committee, the only independent body with powers to call the agencies to account, announced that it planned to hold an inquiry into the relationship between the spooks and the fourth estate, suggesting it was time for a wide-ranging debate. In the event, few journalists offered to give evidence, and the committee's conclusions, published in its 2005 annual report, were disappointingly bland: "The government is trying to balance the need to inform people about issues that affect them, such as the terrorist threat to the UK, whilst still protecting the agencies' work. This is a difficult balance, which requires further thought." Indeed, it does.

Twenty years ago, the Independent, led by its now much-missed political editor, the late Tony Bevins, began a campaign to reform the Westminster lobby by withdrawing from the twice-daily briefings to correspondents by the then prime minister's spokesman, the doughty Bernard Ingham. Since then, political reporting has changed beyond recognition. When Labour came to power in 1997, Alastair Campbell's comments on behalf of Tony Blair became attributable to "the prime minister's spokesman" and, eventually, to him and his successors by name. But in 1987 the lobby rules were essentially the same as those that govern briefings from MI5 and MI6 today. Like them, lobby meetings were then not merely off the record, but deniable, and those who broke the rules risked expulsion from future sessions - so making it impossible, it was believed, for transgressors to do their jobs (though Bevins and his colleagues soon demonstrated otherwise).

The old system's drawbacks had long seemed obvious, and were often canvassed, especially in magazines such as this. The lobby rules were a licence to manipulate coverage and a way of settling political scores, a game in which journalists and voters held few cards. "Lobbies of all kinds are a conspiracy against the customer, the reader," says Peter Preston, who as editor of the Guardian also campaigned for reform. "They enable the reporter to say, 'Look how clever I am. I've got this amazing source, but I'm not going to tell you who it is, so you're just going to have to trust me.' The trouble is, the in formation may well not be trustworthy at all - from either a prime ministerial spokesman or MI6."

By definition, a reporter cannot publicly question information from a deniable briefing. They must swallow it whole, or not at all. As Andreas Whittam Smith, the Independent's editor when its campaign began, pointed out in an article he wrote looking back in 2002, the old lobby rules tended "to enforce a consensus". This suited everyone: while the PM's spokesman got his message out unmodified, "When a repor ter writes along the same lines as everybody else, he or she cannot be blamed if things turn out differently." Unfortunately, he noted, "Reporters as a group are often completely wrong." As spies can be . . .

My unhappy part

To my everlasting regret, I strongly supported the Iraq in vasion, in person and in print. I had become a recipient of what we now know to have been sheer disinformation about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction and his purported "links" with al-Qaeda - claims put out by Ahmad Chalabi and his Iraqi National Congress. I took these stories seriously because they were corroborated by "off-the-record" intelligence sources on both sides of the Atlantic. I am certain that those to whom I spoke at MI6 acted then in good faith. I remember one particular conversation I had with an official in the early summer of 2003, not long before Andrew Gilligan's BBC broadcast about the government having "sexed up" its dossier on Iraqi WMDs in September 2002. Already it was becoming apparent that the threat had probably been a chimera. "Don't worry," my source said soothingly. "We'll find them. We're certain they're there. It's just taking longer than we expected. Keep your nerve."

Since then, the cloak of plausible deniability has allowed those same spooks to claim they never believed in WMDs at all, and that they were the victims of neocon and Blairite pressure. One source in particular I find particularly hard to forgive - a very senior US official who told me time and again that Saddam really did have operational links with al-Qaeda, only to state very publicly much later that the CIA had never properly endorsed this view, and that its dissemination was all the fault of the Bush administration and Chalabi.

MI5 also told me deniable codswallop in the febrile weeks after 9/11. At one lunch, an official insisted that the preachers Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada - now said by the same agency to have been Britain's most dangerous men throughout the 1990s - were "harmless rent-a-gobs" who might have a high public profile, but had no hard links with jihadist terrorism.

More recent media briefings seem equally questionable. After the 7 July 2005 London bombings, MI5 told its stable of reporters that the bombers had all been "clean skins" who had been completely unknown to them; later they said there appeared to be "no connection" between the 7/7 cell and the failed 21/7 group who tried to repeat the atrocities a fortnight later. Only two years later, thanks to evidence given in criminal trials, did it become clear that both claims were false. In fact, the two leaders of the 7/7 gang, Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shazad Tanweer, had been observed by MI5 surveillance officers at least four times, and were known to be connected to another, now convicted, terrorist cell. But MI5 had decided to leave them alone while both men had apparently trained in Pakistan, at the same time as the 21/7 group.

By misleading journalists, and thereby delaying these disclosures, MI5 bought time. Had the truth come out in the immediate wake of the attacks, the Security Service might well have been much more sharply criticised, and the demand for a public inquiry might have become irresistible.

On other occasions, spook briefings have often seemed related to questionable policy goals, such as tougher legislation in the name of counter-terrorism. There may well be arguments for such measures, just as there are strong civil libertarian arguments against them. But, for years now, the agencies have tried to load the scales of this debate with a torrent of deniable briefings about blood-curdling threats from al-Qaeda which, thankfully, have yet to materialise, from dirty bombs to plots to "take down the internet", to say nothing of a long series of stories about Iran's nuclear weapons programme.

The 7/7 attacks proved that the terrorist threat was not chimerical. Yet, for many months before, it seemed barely a week passed without the BBC's security correspondent Frank Gardner broadcasting items that had clearly been briefed by MI5 and could be reduced to a single sentence: "Be very afraid."

Spy agencies, Preston says, "are always on a war footing, and almost nothing they ever say is checkable or necessarily true". In this sense, their present relationship with the media is more dangerous than the old lobby system: under that, at least, there were other accessible sources through which Downing Street's claims could be measured. Usually, Preston says, with spies there is none. "That doesn't mean it's always all spin and propaganda. But it could be, and some of it will be. It's often there for a reason we know nothing about - internal feuding; inter-agency rivalry; being pissed off over something with the Americans - it could be anything."

Pure disinformation

It's easy to see why deniable briefings hurt the cause of reliable journalism, and make it much easier for the agencies to manipulate the media. Less obviously, they can damage the agencies themselves. It doesn't take long for a journalist to pick up the codes through which the comments of MI5 and MI6 are attributed, such as "Whitehall security sources". Over the years, I listened as the spook spokesmen expostulated about national reporters who used such tags and attached them to quotations and stories that, they insisted, were pure fiction, saying that their authors had never spoken to officers at all. Alas: unable to confirm anything on the record, the agencies could not issue denials, either.

Why have the media put up with this situation without protest for so long? One reason, aside from the lunches and limos, is that editors are extremely reluctant to lose the access they have: the spooks' stories may be unreliable, but they often make good copy, and if everyone else is peddling the same errors, it doesn't much matter if they turn out to be untrue. Another, as a seasoned BBC correspondent put it to me, may be a judgement that if MI5 and MI6 sometimes peddle disinformation, many viewers and readers may not very much care, as "we're all on the same side".

Yet there are powerful counter-arguments and, says John Lloyd, the former NS editor who is director of journalism at the Reuters Institute at Oxford, they have become stronger as the agencies have shifted roles. "During the Cold War, their main concerns were remote from most people's lives," says Lloyd. "Now, when they're concentrating on domestic terrorism and subversion . . . their public exposure is much greater. This kind of secrecy becomes more objectionable the more they become part of daily life. It will always be difficult for reporters to verify or refute secret intelligence, but we should at least be able to state openly what the source of a story is. Increasing their accountability will also increase the confidence the public has in the agencies."

Time for a change

Some in the intelligence world itself agree. One senior, recently retired MI6 officer says that, from the spooks' point of view, the disadvantages of the present system now far outweigh any benefits: "The need is for a properly staffed, formal press office. Then, if there is a trashy story, we can put our heads above the parapet and say: 'This is rubbish.' It's a basic professional service that we should be providing, and it can be very easily done in a way that eliminates the risk of revealing damaging information about our sources and methods.

"As for talking only to a select few reporters, it's simply wrong in a democratic society where we're supposed to be accountable - and also counterproductive, because it's going to make the rest instinctively hostile. America, Australia and Canada have managed with on-the-record press officers for years. Unfortunately, the current chief [Sir John Scarlett] seems to take the view that no news is good news. Given our current preoccupations, that's not only wrong, but naive."

A normal press office might, the former officer reflected, have saved the life of David Kelly, the weapons expert who killed himself after being exposed as having talked to Gilligan before he broadcast the claim that Alastair Campbell had "sexed up" the Iraq dossier. "What people forget is that Kelly briefed a lot of reporters about WMDs, not only those we thought were held by Iraq, by tacit agreement with his employers. Much of the fuss and speculation that followed the invasion, and maybe his death, might have been prevented if there had been an on-the-record press officer available."

Adopting the US model may not be the answer. Milton Bearden, the former head of the CIA's Soviet and eastern Europe division who also led the CIA's covert campaign against the Soviets in Afghanistan, warns that journalists' relationships with spooks leave much to be desired. "The energy in the UK seems to be devoted to keeping the media at bay," Bearden says. "In the US, our style has been to spin them into submission. You don't want to get starry-eyed about the way we do business [at the CIA headquarters] in Langley, Virginia." He says he knows of cases where reporters have been taken into agents' confidence - and spun pure disinformation, no less pernicious for being on the record. "There is a structural problem here. The interests of journalists and those of secret intelligence agencies just don't always coincide."

What seems certain is that the debate heralded by the Commons intelligence committee two years ago is long overdue. Meanwhile, I would like to extend a standing invitation to the staff of MI5 and MI6 to join me at the Ritz, or any other London eatery of their choice. In the unlikely event that anyone decides to accept, I make only one condition: I'll pay.

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43 comments from readers

zaabsethna
27 September 2007 at 11:56

For David Rose to imply that he supported the Iraq war only because he was lied to by Ahmad Chalabi and the INC smacks of moral and intellectual cowardice.

Zaab Sethna

(former INC adviser)

smb1971
27 September 2007 at 13:48

Ahmad Chalabi and the INC promoted the fiction that Iraq had a firm hand in the terrorist attacks upon the United States. (Jack Fairweather, "Heroes in Error") They managed to deceive millions of people. Angry service personnel entered that country with zero tolerance levels, looking to exact revenge. The INC also helped circulate fictitious accounts of cruelty (Saddam's people shredder) when there were enough real ones to pick from. Shame on them.

smb1971

Carl Jones
27 September 2007 at 21:26

David Rose; you are nieve and somewhat a fool....but don`t take this personally, there are at least 59.99 million Brits with the same perspective.

I only read about half of your article before I became bored. Not by the subject, but by your continuing loyalty to "the office".

I do believe senior ministers have been asked questions relating to the depth of CIA/NSA involvement within UK intelligence establishments...no one knows, not even the PM.

The WMD dossier was an MI6 construct based on years old work by a student. The Niger Yellow Cake report which was used by the Bush cabal to con the US political establishment into backing the illegal Iraq invasion, was also an MI6 construct based on lies. This led to the Whitehouse outing CIA deepcover agent Valerie Plame.

You and most other mortals are victims of one grand illusion. The idea that all power lies in Washington and that the CIA is the West`s dominant intelligence agency is a sham! Real power passes governments by. Real power lies in the City of London and with the elite families, such as the Rothschilds (Lord). MI6 is tasked with protecting British interests, translated, this means the elite.

No wonder Blair wouldn`t agree to an inquiry over 7/7! Vital evidence has already been changed to accomodate this SIS false flag attack. You mention the inconsistances, but what about Visor Consultants (Peter Power ex Met anti terrorism officer) terror drills in the same stations, same tube lines and at the same time! Why not visit the Cambridge News site and search "Aldgate bomb" and then read the account of Bruce Liat...the bombs were under the train floors. The only bus diverted that day, was the No30 bus which blew up outside the old home of the "Tavistock Institute". There were no bombers. You and your press lackies relayed the message that the 7/7 bombers were short on cash, so they were heard (SIS) planning crimes in order to raise capital, yet they could travel to Pakistan on several expensive trips...where did this money come from? Tanweer had left £120,000 in his bank account, so he`d gone off to kill himself, but left all this money in his account. The police have yet to explain where this money came from. Keep in mind that banks.SIS/police monitor large cash transactions. My opinion is that this money was put there by SIS and forgot to remove it when the plot changed. I could run you through a huge list on inconsistencies, but why bother, no one in the MSM is interested, or should I say "free to investigate"!lol

The Haymarket bomber was able to crash his Mercedes in the Haymarket at 2am, he then runs from the scene...now remember, the tube is closed, there are night buses, but they have CCTV. Every street in London has CCTV, every road into London has SIS tracking cameras and 98% of all London buildings are closed. So he`s on foot, so its a bus, or a car/bike/motorbike, so just how did he get away????

I get to talk with a wide section of people from all over the world. People from outside the West and its lying media, believe the war on terror is a Western construct. There are also quite a few here who believe the same.

Poor Dr David Kelly, setup and murdered because of what he knew and what he was about to write about. After giving evidence to Parliament, Kelly is the hottest guy in the country. The idea that MI5 weren`t watchng him on his walk, is only believable in the context that they were called off so he could be murdered.

Kelly`s body was moved by two police and one other who Hutton fail to ask the identity....SIS? The body was moved because the body had been placed in a position which was inconsistant with the position at time of death. This fact could be found out. Thames Valley Police were providing special tactical support from when Kelly set off on his walk, until the party of 3 left the body...so who was receiving tactical support? TVP sent the Tactcal Support Operations log book to the Hutton Inquiry, but it was not used. Nothing new there.

In my opinion Sir Richard Dearlove activated Gilligan and his BBC Radio 4 outburst. On one hand Dearlove had to back the Iraq invasion, hence the faked WMD dossier, but at the same time he had a duty to protect Britain from Blair. Dearlove signaled his position by announcing his likely retirement...all this while the establishment was in chaos. Gordon Brown can thank Dearlove for his ability to distance himself from Bush...even if it is an illusion.

Mr Rose, you say its only a few media hacks who are enslaved....I`d go much further. BBC journalists are trained and briefed by SIS, BBC Radio 5 Live must be the biggest SIS misinformation outlet in the country. I have a game with the weekend papers...spot the SIS articles!lol I think the real purpose of this article is to reinforce the idea that its all still rather low key.

The last head of MI5 said there were 200 terror cells in Britain and 1000`s engaged in terror activities. This was a statement of fact, so where are the arrests? The liquid bomb plot was a ruse to stop Brown from ousting Blair from power. This plot was discovered by The News of the World spying scam and Murdoch used illegally gained info to warn Blair of this legal coup. The NoftheW 3 pleaded guilty and the Freemason Judge closed the wider investigartion.

While you hacks are doing a good job of not informing the British public, the wider world knows what is going on. Even Europeans are ten time more clued up on the NWO sham war on terror. You should be ashamed.

smb1971
28 September 2007 at 00:16

WATCH OUT, HE HAS A KNIFE!

David Rose
28 September 2007 at 13:48

It's ok, smb1971. I'm wearing a Kevlar vest, but thanks for your concern.

Gonyursel
28 September 2007 at 16:53

Nritish |Intelligence-the ultimate oxymoron

Carl Jones
28 September 2007 at 23:15

David Rose; i commend you for replying, its the first time I`ve seen this happen. its a shame that you carn`t offer a more robust defence.

I don`t bring violence, so your "kevlar vest" is a waste of time....it wouldn`t of saved Dr Kelly, or Litvinenko from MI6, or their contractors. Can you actually strep forward and state that any part of my first post is incorrect? But heck, MI6 must have been in contact with you since my reply.....is this why you feel so gagged? You can only reply to "watch out, he has a knife!"?

I have a designer credit card sized ice scraper in my wallet....its made of "METAL"....its been through airport x-ray machines 6+ times and has never been detected....I have a Swiss key tool which opens to about 5" long. One half has a razor sharp blade and on the other a cross head driver. Its been handled by airport security on several occasions....no one saw it!!lol,lol,lol,lol I wasn`t even tryin!lol

I`ve never had a criminal record....in fact I`ve never committed a crime, I`m no terrorist, I have no weapons...yet, I feel I could take a passenger plane tomorrow....Mr Rose, please tell me I`m a fool....show me the error of my ways with facts. Maybe you could ask your SIS chums to support your position.

alexweir1949
29 September 2007 at 09:28

The real crime of the intelligence services and the FCO is the illegal installation of the dictator Idi Amin in 1970 in Uganda through a coup d'etat and of the dictator Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe in 1980 through a British-frauded Election. Mr Alex Weir, Conakry, Guinea

chris ames
29 September 2007 at 10:48

David, an excellent and important article. Would you please get in touch via my iraqdossier.com website? Chris Ames

Carl Jones
29 September 2007 at 11:55

Chris Ames, I`ve had a brief look at your website. It seems to be as narrow as the Hutton Inquiry. You also seem to avoid Dr David Kelly`s role and murder. You give us a snippet of the BBC Radio 4 Today outburst, but fail to cover John Humphrys interview with John Reid. Reid said the source could have a printer, JH said "I to have spoken with an intelligence officer and they hold the same view as Gilligan`s source, and they are no pen pusher" JH points out that there are two or three sources. JH also knows the name of Gilligan`s source and understands this source to be a high ranking MI6 officer...this is not Dr David Kelly. JH also went onto tell us about his meeting with Sir Richard Dearlove, as I understand it, a senior member of the Today team was at this meeting and this meeting was held shortly before Gilligan`s Today outburst....so you are telling me that Dr Kelly`s MOD grilling wasn`t known to Dearlove? Why didn`t Dearlove pre-warn JH/Today at this meeting?

The BBC and Gilligan maintaind that Kelly was not his source, and only changed this position when Kelly was found "dead in the woods". In fact, a BBC Governor who had once sat on the JIC said, "I know that name, very high up in the SIS"....this is not Dr David Kelly.

We are talking spies here. Sir Richard Dearlove was the top spy at the time. To me, it is clear that Dearlove was not happy about Blair and the cabal in No10.

I`m still waiting for a riposte from Mr Rose. Maybe you can tell me where I`m going wrong, as everything mentioned by me was reported by the BBC/MSM.

chris ames
29 September 2007 at 19:34

Carl, from my experience it is difficult to respond when you write a piece and people post comments that go well beyond what you have said.

I am indeed very well aware that people high up in the intelligence services had doubts about the dossier and am very interested in exploring this further.

amanfromMars
29 September 2007 at 20:05

Crikey, CJ, we moved on into Real Spooky Virtual Fields. You'll really have to try harder to catch up.

Pretty accurate story, Mr Rose. Truth is Always Best. ITs Unbreakable Enigmatic Code.

Carl Jones
29 September 2007 at 20:23

Chris Ames, you can take it that way and I understand your point. But you can`t let Mr Rose get away with believing and peddling the idea that journalists can some how detatch themselves from what is a serious responsibility. Or that journalism plays only a minor role in what people percieve as the truth.

I don`t believe my comments go that far past Mr Rose`s article. Mr Rose and many, many other journalists are complcit in the Blair governments war crimes. I read a good cross section of printed media, in the build up to Iraq, it was The Guardian, a left wing rag, had the most blood thirsty articles supporting the illegal invasion of Iraq...1,000,000 murdered by US/UK forced UN sanctions and now another 1,000,000 plus murdered by an illegal war, which was assisted by the media. Blair failed to ask simple questions that you`d expect a child to ask. The British media followed by also failing to ask some simple questions. Even John Humphrys had training gloves on.

Blair has slipped away to wash the caked blood off his hands...since when has such a well known political monster been granted so much peace and quiet...his big mouthed wife must be out doing him by 20 to 1 in column inches. One wonders if Blair has been ordered to lie low by the Bilderbergers!!lol

Michael John Smith
30 September 2007 at 01:23

I notice that David Rose does not mention the Mitrokhin Archive, which was an important issue he was involved with in the late 1990s. Well, we now know where his stories about that episode originated from.

I wrote to David Rose, asking if he could help me discover more about my entry in the Mitrokhin Archive, which I told him contained numerous errors. Mr Rose warned me off from challenging the veracity of Mitrokhin, virtually implying that the sky would fall on me if I questioned its claims.

I now feel like I was asking an agent of MI6 to help me - how could I have expected an honest answer from a man so compromised by his association with the disinformation being spread by MI6?

Carl Jones
30 September 2007 at 09:08

amanfromMars, I have no intention of trying to keep up with spooks like you.

Carl Jones
30 September 2007 at 09:37

Michael John Smith, as I understand it, the Mitrokhin Archive was a bunch of "hand written" notes...this is strange, why not just make copies?. Many experts question the worth and validity of the Mitrokhin Archive.

The logical extension of claimed KGB sabotarge, could now lead the West to claim the KGB/FSB was responsible for the War on Terror....strange that MI6 constructed Al Qaeda is having more global sucess than the KGB ever did.lol

amanfromMars
30 September 2007 at 16:35

"amanfromMars, I have no intention of trying to keep up with spooks like you."

Oh Ok..... that is fine if you haven chosen not to be relevant and valid in todays Changing Intelligence Environment . ye Olde Script was getting a bit tired/dog-eared for Future Purpose anyway.

Carl Jones
30 September 2007 at 18:02

amanfromMars, we have a long history, posting on the BBC Radio 4 Today message boards. This was before they were reduced to a totally censored forum. The BBC and their Dark Forces controllers in Cheltenham saw fit to pre-moderate me for long periods...this against their own guidlines. 100`s of my posts were censored, even though they didn`t break BBC posting rules. I believe the Today message boards were changed largely because of my posts. Which often shattered the lies peddled out by the MSM.

Blair`s daughter, US plane shoots down RAF C-130 killing 9 crew, 1 private and 60 SAS....the spies actually threatened me with harm on this one. How about the downed Nimrod in Afghanistan...flying so low they had little chance of making it. They were using magnetic resonance technology to detect Talibunnies deep under ground...more state lies. The Kursk sunk by US sub torpedo....I could go on.

After a break I moved onto the BBC Radio 5 Live message boards, but have since been banned...for no reason. During my time posting on the BBC, I`ve had posts vanish from the screen, computers wrecked. The last US election was a bad time for me, my BB internet access was jammed.

Mr Mars, you might be going cyber hi-tech and ever distant from reality, but my old script based on the search for truth, ain`t broken, so it don`t need fixing.

Thankyou for using you advanced cyber time to reply to a tired dogeared script....what I can`t understand, is why you just didn`t pass me by?

gerardmulholland
30 September 2007 at 18:20

Mr Rose and, indeed, all the members of both your professions.

Whilst it is immensely interesting -and important- to follow all these trails to discover who knew how much of the lies were lies and when did they know, etc., haven't any of you asked yourselves the question: "Who invented this false intelligence in the first place and fed it to the intelligence services of the entire planet and why?

Cui bono?

gerardmulholland
30 September 2007 at 18:34

By the way, Ahmed Chalabi wasn't the person who invented it all.

He was just a useful stooge as ONE of the conduits through which SOME of the lies were fed to SOME of "the Intelligence Services of the entire planet".

The question is:

Who believed -and still believe- themselves to have such an overwhelming interest in fomenting war against Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, etc. and whose own Intelligence Services have a statutory duty to infiltrate to the very heart of all other Intelligence Services and the central organisational structures of any and all NGOs they consider to be inimical to them?

Come on!

Cui bono?

amanfromMars
30 September 2007 at 21:03

"Thankyou for using you advanced cyber time to reply to a tired dogeared script....what I can`t understand, is why you just didn`t pass me by?"

Very Perceptive, CJ. Very Legal Alien too.

And Yes, it is a Shame the way the BBC has been neutered. It was a Valid and Valuable Democratic Intelligence Source, which, of course, is what they Realised....... and Heaven forbid that they would Lose the Lead Initiative to a Public Messageboard for the BBC and ITs Members to MetaDataMine for Future Content.

Good to speak with you again, CJ. Don't let the buggers grind you down, Crazy Diamond. :-)

I wonder what the Office is busy with. They're very quiet on the Waterfront. I wonder if they're into Holywood Blockbuster Moves for the Movies..... Palace Barracks Productions for a Coalition of Willing Services?

Ooops, sounds like A.N.Other Service with Beta Control Input.

amanfromMars
01 October 2007 at 08:40

Does Prosecuting and Persecuting the Past Prevent Progress Pitting Provenance against Providence?

realworld
01 October 2007 at 11:22

You were deceived by Chalabi? Did you know to use the web back then?

"The Iraqi National Congress (INC) was created at the behest of the U.S. government for the purpose of fomenting the overthrow of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. The INC has been funded since 1992. An unnamed INC offical told the New York Times in 2004 that INC had received $27 million in the last four years. [1].

In May 1991, following the end of Operation Desert Storm, then-President George H.W. Bush signed a presidential finding directing the CIA to create the conditions for Hussein's removal. The hope was that members of the Iraqi military would turn on Hussein and stage a military coup. The CIA did not have the mechanisms in place to make that happen, so they hired the Rendon Group, a PR firm run by John Rendon, to run a covert anti-Saddam propaganda campaign.

"The Iraqi National Congress, and its most famous spokesperson Ahmad Chalabi, are entirely the creation of a media strategy company (Rendon Group) doing the bidding of the United States government."

Perhaps they slipped a little something into your tea at the Ritz ... possibly hidden in that rolled-up copy of The Times

Quote: http://www.sourcewatch.org/

David Rose
01 October 2007 at 12:33

I can't help thinking that most of the comments on this article posted here have little to do with what I wrote. My hope was to start a debate about the relationship between Britain's security and intelligence services and the media. Important as some of the other matters raised are, does anyone feel like addressing that?

Robert Powell
01 October 2007 at 13:30

David, I haven't bothered reading your article so I find it difficult to address the points you make but thank you for invitation.

amanfromMars
01 October 2007 at 17:50

"My hope was to start a debate about the relationship between Britain's security and intelligence services and the media. Important as some of the other matters raised are, does anyone feel like addressing that?"

Most certainly, David. Let's do something New and Constructive to be different.

It is hard not to conclude that Britain's security and intelligence services need a dedicated Media Arm to Feed Intelligence into Information to secure Popular Initiative Support. Spooky Pushermen rather than Covert Phishermen.

It's what the CIA have been doing Hollywood Style for yonks now, but they appear to have got stuck in the Intellectually Bankrupting Rut of Global War Games.

Give IT a Stir .... Shake that Booty, Blighty.

Carl Jones
01 October 2007 at 21:28

David Rose,

Whats the matter, has "M" been in touch? You can`t expect such an emotive subject to remain within your box. You seem to have this blinkered media perspective that everyone just accepts all these pathetic excuses over Iraq and the sham war on terror.

Ask "M" if you can write a spot on Iran already having nukes...or is it in MI6`s plans to provoke Iran into striking Israel with these nukes, but then again, "M" would need to clear that with Lord R.?

Maybe "M" will let you write about the social engineering project which is going on in Iraq...worthy of the Tavistock Institute...makes Dresden look like a childs tea party.

Heck, I`ve just had another idea. ask "M" if he`s read "Hitler was a British Agent"....I`d be interested in his opinion.

amanfromMars
02 October 2007 at 10:06

A Zig Zagging Third Man is Beta Reading, CJ. AI Vital Tome for Office Controllers and their Alter Super Ego Pimpernels..... Doppelgangers. IT Drivers Really.

A UltraSensitive Manchurian Thing

gnuneo
02 October 2007 at 17:03

david rose, you write that the current system of 'information dissemination' is too flawed to continue - you are surely correct.

you then offer up a notion of following in the Americans footsteps - and then point out that is also flawed, as spoken by even the CIA itself.

you then point out the committee that is supposed to oversight MI5/6 is essentially toothless.

so WTF *is* your proposed solution?

--this whole article has reminded me of what philip k dick (the author of bladerunner) said about hte removal of nixon:

we fought and fought, and at the point of exhaustion we finally managed to get rid of him. Only to discover behind him lay the supposed Intelligence agencies, but that point we were too tired and demoralised to continue the fight.

or words to that effect. (his are much better).

what ARE these Agencies up to? What ARE these modern day 'Hassan's Assassins' belief systems?

your article makes absolutely no reference to this, simply assuming they *definitely* have 'our best interests at heart'.

you are indeed still locked into their structures, got the right hand-shake do you by any chance?

C-, Could Do Better.

gerardmulholland
02 October 2007 at 18:05

David Rose: You wrote today: "I can't help thinking that most of the comments on this article posted here have little to do with what I wrote. My hope was to start a debate about the relationship between Britain's security and intelligence services and the media. Important as some of the other matters raised are, does anyone feel like addressing that?"

But it is quite simple!

The relationship between Britain's security and intelligence services and the media are the same as the intelligence services relations with any profession or opinion-contributing group - ie one of complete infiltration so as to direct as much as possible of their activity as seems relevant at any given time and to spy on and report on the rest.

Nearly all of Britain's media are but mouthpieces for the intelligence services' propaganda and have been since at least the First World War.

What is even more serious than that is the way politically-motivated factions within the intelligence services pursue their own agenda not only often without the knowledge of the government of the day but even AGAINST the government of the day (as the late Peter Wright, former Deputy Director of MI5 told us in his memoirs 'Spycatcher' that Margaret Thatcher tried so hard to stop anybody in Britain from reading because it was they who had badmouthed Ted Heath out of the Tory Leadership and then tried to overthrow Wilson – all on her behalf).

What seems to escape even those spooks who try to be loyal to the government of the day is that the incredibly wide network of informers that now exists (Blunkett let that cat out of the bag) has made easy to the point of criminal negligence the infiltration of the British Intelligence Services by OTHER countries' Intelligence Services (or by other vested interest groups). That's how all the false intelligence was fed to MI5, MI6 etc. which formed the dodgy dossier and now forms the build-up to the attack on Iran.

You should be loudly shouting that it isn't just the British media's slavish parotting of any old MI5 or MI6 garbage that's the problem -that's been obvious for so long that I am shocked that you only realised when you did- it's the British Government actually believing the lies that is the problem. And when there is a world-wide campaign to persuade as many governments as possible of these lies, the desperately important questions are WHO is the infiltrator, WHERE are these lies manufactured and WHY ?

The British media are no longer the unquestioning mouthpiece of the British Intelligence Service peddling British Government lies.

The British media are now the unquestioning mouthpiece of the British Intelligence Services peddling the lies of a foreign Government and of a foreign interest group.

We are all about to be plunged into a major war against Iran on the basis of a complete pack of lies concocted by the same people who conned us all into attacking Iraq.

THAT is what you should be raging from the rooftops about, David Rose.

And just think about it.

Cui bono?

Michael John Smith
02 October 2007 at 22:08

David Rose, as somebody who has obviously played a role in disseminating the propaganda of MI5 and MI6, I cannot understand what has made you suddenly develop a conscience.

Your contemporaries, such as Professor Christopher Andrew and Oleg Gordievsky, have shown no such qualms at passing on the intelligence service views they are expected to support. I even named Andrew as the "Cambridge Parrot" for his ability to mimic the voice of his masters.

Grow up David Rose. You are playing with the big boys now.

JenJen
03 October 2007 at 00:59

It’s not a democracy when the people can’t get the truth.

Perhaps your mistake was believing the propaganda that it was.

I've read some really far-ranging comments here about intelligence services and their possible nefarious dealings. I believe there's so much money pouring thru the intelligence agencies, it's hopeless to ever think they'll be open. Billions if not trillions have disappeared down the drain of so-called secret agencies. And no one is held accountable.

"Follow the money" - Deep Throat

John Symonds
04 October 2007 at 10:42

David Rose, from Zaab Sethna to Jen-Jen inclusive, all are valid points in my opinion and deserve more of a response than "WATCH OUT, HE HAS A KNIFE"!

Of course you will never reply to anybody at all who may have a valid complaint (or criticism) about your opinions or behavior. As with those of Michael Smith and myself some years ago (The Mitrokhin Archive)

I am still awaiting my half of the fee you received for the story "I told you thnat I was a spy" which we prepared together. The other 'dirty tricks' you played will be recorded on Mike Smith's blog (of same name)

The 'comments' engendered by your article have been more interesting and informative than the article itself.

The 'Archive. was a total 'hype' throughout (As you well knew) You should be ashamed of your part in the 'con'

John Symonds (The "Romeo Spy") I dare you to reply..

Mike C
04 October 2007 at 11:38

Mr Rose, you seem to be at the brink of self enlightenment but the illuminated area is bound by you candle light, you need to wait till daybreak and for the light provided by a sun to have a chance of even beginning to see, let alone understand what you are seeking.

Mr MJ Smith, hi again, strange how people pop up!! Mike C.

You are right.

Few people understand just how deep this goes, or more to the point who care.

JenJen Who said it was a democracy? You have been listening to the press again havent you??

“Follow the Influence and Money” Mike C 1975

amanfromMars
04 October 2007 at 17:27

"The British media are now the unquestioning mouthpiece of the British Intelligence Services peddling the lies of a foreign Government and of a foreign interest group."

Virgins into the Game, gerardmulholland, so they have everything to learn in ITs Service. You can be sure though,that Intelligence has that angle well Primed for Function ....... surely?

I wonder if it is Home Intelligence or some Foreign Stuff although what price the difference if it makes Common Sense.

"Few people understand just how deep this goes, or more to the point who care." And those that do both , Mike C, care to such a Point of Mutual Understanding as to be Virtually Invisible and Untouchable to All but their Peers.

A Virtuous Ring of Immaculate Knights. They Dare to Care 42 Win Win.

And their Weapon of Choice for Tin Pot Trouble Makers, Alternating Currency . :-) ..... for a Stimulating Wave of Powers.

Now QuITe whether SpooksVille UK are into the Loop is doubtful, which is probably/possibly all that would need to be said to conceal that they possibly/probably are. It is so preposterous as to be easily plausibly denied, is IT not?

And if cast adrift without the tools for the job, then that is a little something which is obviously there for Use.

Trailer for Sale or Rent/King of the Road. And Moscow is full of dDelights 42 Savour too, with an IntelAIgent Head already in Place/Charge.

amanfromMars
05 October 2007 at 14:07

AI Perfect GNU, neo.

Pencils
08 October 2007 at 01:47

I agree that the comments have been far more entertaining ( if perplexing ) than the article. I feel Mr Rose is taking the P by starting his last paragraph with " One senior, recently retired MI6 officer says..." , but since he asked us to discuss his points I'll try to: as far as I can discern the only real point is whether it would be better to have a PR front for the SIS to which briefings could be attributed - well, of course it would be better for the public, but less convenient for the SIS. Most people, I'm sure, never give the coded attributions (like Whitehall insider, security source, etc.) a second thought, so it would be better if it could be made plain where the 'info' comes from so the public could disregard it. So it won't happen.

amanfromMars - I've got your number! All the capital letters in your prophetic utterances constitute a coded message for some foreign intelligence service!

On a more serious topic: being new to blogland, I have trouble with some of the shorthand. Can anyone tell me what 'lol' ( or 'LOL') means? I used to think it was ' like or lump', but it doesn't seem to fit the context neatly or often.

amanfromMars
08 October 2007 at 08:52

Pencils,

I'm a straight kinda guy ... and very inclusive and would never restrict myself to some whenever any and all are more approriate and likely.

On a more serious topic, I liked the question contained in the observation..."as far as I can discern the only real point is whether it would be better to have a PR front for the SIS"

Why don't you just ask the more pertinent question ..... Does the SIS need a new C Chief , au fait with C++ ..... for AIDifferent take on Matter[s]?

Although that would be much more easily accomplished as a new Server Department, which you may or may not get to hear about, proposed by incumbent Intelligence rather than them losing Credibility because of Incompetence or, as is morely likely the case, some dirty little secret they would rather not have revealed. Some people are born dumb, others have it thrust upon them.

Although any of the above must mark them out as being Unsuitable ..... and an Unacceptable Risk to National Security...... or at least the suspicion of it being so.

It's that old conundrum again ....... Who watches the watchers when nobody is watching?

"Can anyone tell me what 'lol' ( or 'LOL') means?" ..... Crikey, Pencils, let your fingers do the walking .... Does Google not tell you everything, or even only just as much as you would care to know.?

amanfromMars
08 October 2007 at 16:17

This thread has been an interesting poll/trawl/phish of Spooky IDEas. Do you think the New Statesman is one of those obscure Intelligence Portals you never get to hear about?

Spookily enough, the same could be asked of IDEntities posting here too ..... but don't let that spoil the party, for IT being so preposterous is a very valid cover which you cannot crack .... although that is not the same as saying that it cannot be hacked.

A little something Enigmatic learnt building a Colossus for Magical Mystery Turing...... but which is badly used and abused by British Intelligence because they are using corrupted Code and dodgy Algorithms.

A little tweak, here and there, a line of Code injected to hit the right Nodes, and Britannia will surface, Invisible to the Naked Eye or any Spy in the Sky, Astute and Dreading Nought.

Let's hope that that is what is taxing the Bouncing Broon in No 10.

parkavenue6
13 October 2007 at 09:32

I intended replying to David Rose article 1/10/07. What does MI something or other ever do. Last week it was announced the 50th Anniversary of the Russian Sputnic. This astounded the West.

How come all our spies etc failed to report this. American films portrayed film stars outwitting simple clots in Soviet Interlligence.

Finally is Intelligence just reporting common gosip in the Westinster or Washington or Kremil villages..

Carl Jones
22 October 2007 at 20:52

Hi David, its me again! Just saw this in yesterday`s Sunday Times.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/arti...

Another SIS bunch of lies....maybe she took over from you. In about a years time you`ll be able to berate her for propeling Britain into war with Iran..........but then again, we are technically already at war.

avaiki
25 October 2007 at 11:11

crikey dave!

me thinks you one brave fella.

writing bait-bloated almost-articles to bring out the frothy naysayers is a time honoured way of discrediting not just critics, but criticism ...

... of course, outside the 24.7 matrix, there is rather a good point being made that a proper PR division would go some way to opening things up and preventing silly carry on.

from a very quick read, i think the point being made in response is that the cake already has enough icing and that someone needs to hold journalists to account.

otherwise very little will change, not if the back room boys have anything to do with it.

by the way, what does anyone know about britain's biggest hoax?

might be of interest to the parliamentary inquiry currently in progress...

Michael John Smith
31 October 2007 at 17:00

I have just published David Rose's letter to me in November 2001. It's on my blog at:

http://parellic.blogspot.com/2007/09/david-rose-was-agent-of...

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