Israel's Marva and Gadna programmes

65 comments from readers

Avihu
07 September 2007 at 15:59

I wish to take this opportunity and thank Captain Rutland for expaining to readers of the nature of Marva and Gadna.

Shabbat shalom v'shanah tovah to you Captain and to all beit israel.

Nadav Katz

Jerusalem

Israel

Robert Powell
07 September 2007 at 16:03

Doesn't he go on?

Cybertiger
07 September 2007 at 16:24

"The programs include lessons on Jewish history and the IDF ethical code, with a focus on peace, tolerance and respect."

... so why does the IDF shoot so many Palestinian children?

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html

Please tell us why, Captain Benjamin Rutland, spokesperson for the IDF on the European and Pacific desks.

Reactionary Roger
07 September 2007 at 16:33

Finally an article from a genuinely impartial source!

Cybertiger
07 September 2007 at 16:43

@RR

"Finally an article from a genuinely impartial source!"

I don't think these folk will understand this brand of sarcazm.

Joe Feld
07 September 2007 at 16:46

I am pleased that New Staesman has given the IDF the right of reply. My wife's two brothers and three nephews have served in the IDF. It was the least attractive part of Israeli life, certainly not something they looked forward to. My father and his elder brother served in the American forces during World War II, no doubt the most distressing part of their lives. To suggest that anyone looks forward to warfare is unrealistic. Only fanatics and the mentally unbalanced see mass murder as their goal.

Cybertiger
07 September 2007 at 18:15

JF said that,

"To suggest that anyone looks forward to warfare is unrealistic. Only fanatics and the mentally unbalanced see mass murder as their goal."

Do you accept the murder of near on a thousand Palestinian children ... as the price worth paying ... to win the war on peace in the Holy Land?

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html

jlevyellow
07 September 2007 at 23:46

Using children as tools of warfare is currently viewed as a crime by international law experts. How many of the unfortunate Arab children that were killed were subjected to forced service? How many simply believed that life and martyrdom were approximately the same thing and so made the decision to remain in the vicinity of active launch sites? We have all seen pictures of children gaily romping in the presence of "militant" activities! Where are the respondent writers' understanding of the fear engendered in the Israeli children? Have these great minds lost a sense of reciprocity? Or is Jewish trauma of less intrinsic value than that of the Palestinians?

Pierre
08 September 2007 at 00:33

Beware, the spin doctors have been unleashed, Their tacits seem to be right out of the Goebbels Ministry of disinformation.

Dan
08 September 2007 at 18:42

IDF ethical code?

1. Jewish life takes priority, don't refrain from killing civilians. you can have as many collateral damage as you want.

( see point 3 in the following link).

http://www.rhr.israel.net/pdf/ariseandkillfirsthewhocomestokillyou.pdf

2. Also, rape is permissible at War to relieve soldiers. ( see point 54 on the following link).

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/war_notes.html

If this is what you are teaching our children, then I feel I should report you to the Police.

Very ethical indeed.

spkurer
08 September 2007 at 18:47

Cybertiger- your attacks on Jews and Israel might just have a touch more credibility if your clear bias and hatred to Jews and Israel was just a tad more subtle.

TeachESL
08 September 2007 at 19:09

Cybertiger:

The IDF does NOT target children! As opposed to the other side which intentionally aims their rockets at the residents of Sderot and puts their own children in harms way hoping - yes HOPING - that they will be killed in order to use them for propaganda purposes!!

oddsblog
08 September 2007 at 21:56

Does the IDF target children? Of course not says the international law-abiding IDF. The reason why so many no longer easily take the word of the IDF are longstanding. Reasons vary from the general (Israel's forty year occupation of the Palestinian lands despite all international law and UN resolutions to the contrary), to the more recent, brutal repression including the constant casual killing of Palestinians, young and old, in the years particularly since Ariel Sharon set the tone (PM 2001-2005); all of which enabled the vastly increased settlement of the West Bank, thus giving the flat lie to Israel's signature to the Oslo Accords of 1993, and once again to all stipulations of international law and UN resolutions. So much for the illusion of civilized Israel and its peace-loving military. We see a huge wall/fence, 400 odd kilometres, and half way built, to annex settlement land to israel - giving yet again the lie to Israel's claim that it is a civilized country which supports international law. The ICJ ruled this wall/fence illegal - so what, said Israel. Everyone, most of all the IDF, knows this makes a viable Palestinian state impossible, yet on Israel goes, once again happy to lie (oops - pretend) that it has no partner for peace, and to blame those held prisoner by its fortification.

But take just one example of the particular: the most recent: the respected Human Rights Watch has just reported on the IDF claim that the Lebanese civilians (over 1000) it killed last year were deliberately endangered by Hisbullah hiding its rocket-launchers in the villages. Not so, says the HRH after a widescale examination of the facts of Israel's offensive, Hisbullah's defence.

One could go on to examine case by case the recent increase of individual killing of Palestinian children...

But that's why I for one believe whenever the IDF washes its hands over killing Arab civilians or indeed the treatment of Palestinian prisoners there is more likely than not to be a cover-up. And why, to get back to the article above, serving in the IDF, whoever you are, is more likely than not to dehumanising, brutalising experience,

TeachESL
09 September 2007 at 07:18

And it was widely believed - and still promulgated today by the Arab world - that Jews use the blood of non-Jewish children to make matzos!!! And "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is widely read throughout the Arab world today. How in the world can the HRH make a 'widescale examination' after the fact - after the rocket launchers were taken out of the neighborhoods? Do you really believe that the people living in those neighborhoods are going to tell the HRH that their neighborhoods were used to fire from??? I think not. I don't really care what you think. I know what the Israel Defence Force is - and I am proud of them!!

Cybertiger
09 September 2007 at 09:01

"Cybertiger: The IDF does NOT target children!"

Was the death of Iman al-Hams a lie? Was the murder of a 13 year old schoolgirl on 5 October 2004 a lie?

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Imam-al-Hamas24nov04.htm

Were the killings of another 951 Palestinian children between September 2000 and June 2007 all lies too?

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html

Sappy
09 September 2007 at 09:04

How many of the Jewish children have gone back to the UK or their other home countries after attending these camps and then set about planting bombs or killing sprees against Muslims / Arabs. The answer is none. Can the Muslims honestly say the same about their camps.

It's a sad world where men and women have to put their children in the front line knowning that they will possibly get killed to make the other side look bad.

One further point - Why does it there no mention of the wall the Egyptians have put up to stop the Palastinians going from the Gaza strip to Egypt. Is this more of it would not suite the anit Israel media to have this known.

mazaluk
09 September 2007 at 09:53

I spent last summer as a volunter on an IDF (Israeli Army) camp somewhere south of Tel Aviv. I was given full combat fatigues and had to attend parade every morning before going off to work repairing communication equipment for tank crews.

Even though I wasn't given a gun or given any anti-Arab/Muslim propoganda, it was great fun!

I am 58 years old, so hardly a youth!

Cybertiger
09 September 2007 at 12:51

With very little subtlety, spkurer said,

"Cybertiger- your attacks on Jews and Israel might just have a touch more credibility if your clear bias and hatred to Jews and Israel was just a tad more subtle."

What's with all the hatred? By terrorising the Palestinian people by discriminately killing children, Israel is conducting a hateful, none too subtle, war on peace. Israel clearly wants a brutal war in preference to peace with justice for all. And hatred is the enemy of peace. Look in the mirror and what do you see? A peacemaker? No, I think you're looking deep into the eyes of the enemy - and they are eyes full of hatred.

Cybertiger
09 September 2007 at 12:53

"I don't really care what you think. I know what the Israel Defence Force is - and I am proud of them!!"

And pride comes before a fall ... and the children of Israel, led by the IDF, the pied pipers of Jerusalem, are like lemmings heading for the abyss. But then, who really cares?

spkurer
09 September 2007 at 13:26

Cybertiger-

at least you admit it-although it was clear before-you don't care for Jews

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Pierre
09 September 2007 at 14:34

The Palestinian jews history of terrorism is a matter of record, the stern gang, the irgun, terrorists to their core.

The curious issue that remains unexplained is the jews attack on America via the USS Liberty, they killed scores of American sailors and wounded over a hundred yet the Americans did not respond.

Ths issue of their spying on America never gets the coverage it merits. Can you imagine the coverage an Arab spy would get if uncovered?

Strange

willoyen
09 September 2007 at 14:35

I would like to take part in these programmes myself, and then immigrate into Israel. I'm a Palestinian. My lands were cut off by the wall, oh sorry! fence!, and then confiscated, water rights taken, then my two brothers were abducted by the IDF under their ethical code of "peace tolerance and respect", my younger brother was shot for throwing stones at a tank... so I have decided if you can't beat 'em, you might as well join 'em. Them being people with such middle-eastern names as , well, Rutland, Eisen, Regev, you know, all the nice immigrants who strut about on my lands as of right! So please let me in, Israel!

TeachESL
09 September 2007 at 15:03

Tell me why the people of Gaza want Israel back in again! Their lives are pure hell at the moment! Every time the crossing is opened to bring in food and medical supplies, Hamas gunmen come and shoot up the place! That fence is up to keep out suicide bombers. I would prefer it not be there because it has cut Eretz Yisrael in half. Who were the Palestinians before 1947?

TeachESL
09 September 2007 at 15:36

Loving their children to death:

Gaza Strip May 15, 2002 -- Abu Ali, like many 12-year-olds living in Gaza, has dreams of eternity. But the Palestinian boy's hopes are rooted in a grim reality: "I hope to be a martyr," he said.

"I hope when I get to 14 or 15 to explode myself."His mother, Om Muhammed, is eager to help her son, one of six children, accomplish his goal. She helps him tug on a toy suicide bomber costume in her living room as she serves mint tea to a visitor.

This is child abuse!!

Avihu
09 September 2007 at 17:09

I thought readers may be interested in reading a direct translation of a document from the Hebrew instead of speculating regarding it without knowing a thing about it. Well, here it is,

The Spirit of The IDF:

The Ethical Code of the Israel Defence Forces

________________________________________

1. The Spirit of the IDF is an expression of the identity, values and norms of the IDF. It underlies every action performed in the IDF by each and every serviceman and servicewoman. (Hereafter the term servicemen will be construed as applying to both servicemen and servicewomen.)

2. The Spirit of the IDF comprises eleven core IDF values. It defines and presents the essence of each of them, and includes basic principles which express these values.

3. The Spirit of the IDF draws its values and basic principles from three traditions:

a. The tradition of the Jewish People throughout its history.

b. The tradition of the State of Israel, its democratic principles, laws and institutions.

c. The tradition of the IDF and its military heritage as the Israel Defense Forces.

4. The Spirit of the IDF is the ethical code by which all IDF enlisted personnel, officers, units and corps act. It is the norm to guide them in forming their patterns of behavior. They are expected to educate and critically evaluate themselves and others in accordance with these values and principles.

5. The complex nature of military activity in general, and combat in particular, may generate tensions with the values and basic principles of The Spirit of the IDF, and may raise problems of judgment about the proper balance needed between theory and practice.

The obligation to fulfill the mission and ensure military victory will be the compass guiding any effort to balance these values and basic principles of The Spirit of the IDF. The striving for proper balance according to this compass will make it possible to preserve the IDF as a body of high quality, imbued with values, and which fulfills its duties and missions appropriately.

Perseverance in Mission

The IDF serviceman will fight and conduct himself with courage in the face of all dangers and obstacles; he will persevere in his mission courageously, resolutely and thoughtfully even to the point of endangering his own life.

The perseverance of IDF servicemen in their mission is their capability and readiness to fight courageously in the face of danger and in most challenging situations; to strive unremittingly to achieve the military goal effectively, with full regard for the particular circumstances, notwithstanding any difficulty, stress or adversity or even mortal danger. They will do so with proper judgment and with due regard for risks.

Comradeship

The IDF serviceman will always go to the aid of his comrades when they need his help or depend on him, despite any danger or difficulty, even to the point of risking his life.

The fellowship of IDF servicemen is their bond as comrades in arms. It is their unwavering commitment to each other, their readiness to extend appropriate assistance, to go to the aid of a comrade, and even risk their lives on his behalf. In all their actions they will uphold and strengthen the solidarity of their unit in full cooperation with other units, and in support of the overall goals of the IDF.

Discipline

The IDF serviceman will execute completely and successfully all that is required of him according to the letter and spirit of his orders and within the framework of the law.

The discipline of IDF servicemen is their readiness to act to the full extent of their abilities, to carry out what is demanded of them completely, according to their understanding of the letter of the orders they have received, and successfully, according to the spirit of their orders. It is their readiness to obey orders amidst a constant striving to execute them with understanding and dedication. They will take care to issue only legal orders, and disavow manifestly illegal orders.

Human Life

The IDF serviceman will, above all, preserve human life, in the recognition of its supreme value and will place himself or others at risk solely to the extent required to carry out his mission.

The sanctity of life in the eyes of the IDF servicemen will find expression in all of their actions, in deliberate and meticulous planning, in safe and intelligent training and in proper execution of their mission. In evaluating the risk to self and others, they will use the appropriate standards and will exercise constant care to limit injury to life to the extent required to accomplish the mission.

Loyalty

The IDF serviceman will act with complete dedication in the defense of the State of Israel and its citizens, according to IDF orders, within the framework of the laws of the State and democratic principles.

The loyalty of IDF servicemen is their dedication, in all actions, to their homeland, the State of Israel, its citizens and armed forces, and their constant readiness to fight and devote all their power, even at the risk of their own lives, in the defense of the sovereign State of Israel and the lives and the safety of its inhabitants, according to the values and orders of the IDF, while following the laws and the democratic principles of the State.

Personal Example

The IDF serviceman will comport himself as is required of him and will, himself, act as he demands of others, thoughtfully and dedicatedly, aware of his ability and responsibility to serve as a role model to those around him.

The personal example of the IDF servicemen is their acting as is demanded of them and as they themselves demand of others, their clear and convincing readiness to serve as an example to those around them, in their actions and comportment, to create, uphold and foster mutual identification and joint responsibility in properly carrying out their tasks and accomplishing their missions in all areas of military activity.

Professionalism

The IDF serviceman will aspire to be familiar with and understand the body of knowledge pertaining to his military position and will master every skill necessary for carrying out his duties.

The professionalism of IDF servicemen is their ability to correctly perform their military duties through striving to constantly excel in and improve their unit's and their individual achievements. They will do so by broadening their knowledge, and increasing proficiency, based upon the lessons of experience and study of the heritage and by expanding and deepening their understanding of the body of military knowledge.

Purity of Arms

The IDF serviceman will use force of arms only for the purpose of subduing the enemy to the necessary extent and will limit his use of force so as to prevent unnecessary harm to human life and limb, dignity and property.

The IDF servicemen's purity of arms is their self-control in use of armed force. They will use their arms only for the purpose of achieving their mission, without inflicting unnecessary injury to human life or limb; dignity or property, of both soldiers and civilians, with special consideration for the defenseless, whether in wartime, or during routine security operations, or in the absence of combat, or times of peace.

Representativeness

The IDF serviceman will constantly see himself as a representative and an emissary of the IDF. As such he will act solely on the basis of the authority he has been given and orders he has been issued.

The representativeness of IDF servicemen is their consciousness, expressed in all their actions, that the armed force placed in their hands and the power to use it are given to them only as members of the IDF and its authorized representatives, duly executing their orders in accordance with the laws of the State of Israel and is subject to its Government.

Responsibility

The IDF serviceman will see himself as an active participant in the defense of his country and its citizens. He will carry out his duties decisively, resolutely and with vigor, within the limits of his authority.

The responsibility of IDF servicemen is their active partnership and their readiness to use their utmost abilities in the defense of the State, its sovereignty, and the lives and safety of its citizens, within the framework of authority granted them by the IDF. They will carry out their duties fully, diligently, and with determination, commitment and initiative, in clear awareness that they are answerable for any consequences.

Trustworthiness

The IDF serviceman will strive in all his actions to fulfill his duties correctly and at the highest professional level, from exacting and thorough preparation to true, honest, complete and precise reporting.

The trustworthiness of IDF servicemen is their reliability in fully carrying out their charge, using their military skills, with the sincere belief and conviction that they are acting professionally. They are ready at all times to present things as they are, in planning, executing and reporting truthfully, completely, courageously and honestly.

Basic Principles

A. Values

1. The IDF serviceman will, in all his actions and conduct, express the basic values of the IDF:

Perseverance in the mission, comradeship, discipline, respect for human life, loyalty, personal example, professionalism, purity of arms, representativeness, responsibility, and trustworthiness, as defined above and as appropriate to the specific circumstances.

2. The IDF serviceman, when acting in the framework of his military role, will be ever cognizant that he bears responsibility not only for the outcomes of his acts and omissions, but also for the patterns of behavior which they help to create, whether by order or personal example, by direct or indirect influence, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

B. On Military Service

3. The IDF serviceman will view himself, in each of his actions, as bearing full responsibility for the lives and safety of the servicemen and all others who are dependent on his actions or decisions.

4. The IDF serviceman will be ready to place his own life at risk when confronting the enemy or to save human life to the extent required, but he will preserve his own life and that of others in all other military situations.

5. The IDF serviceman will take into account, in every practical context, not only the proper concern for human life, but also the influence his actions may have on the physical well-being and spiritual integrity and dignity of others.

6. The IDF serviceman will endeavor fully to exercise his capabilities as called upon in accordance with the priorities assigned by the IDF to combat, command, combat support and combat service support roles.

7. The IDF serviceman, in all his actions, will take care to uphold the honor of the State, its institutions, monuments and symbols, including the honor of the IDF and its symbols.

8. .The IDF serviceman will show special respect for the fallen of the IDF. The serviceman will behave with deference in ceremonies, at memorial sites, and at memorial and honor ceremonies, and will treat bereaved families with proper respect.

9. The IDF serviceman will maintain the tradition of the IDF by showing honor and respect for IDF wounded and disabled.

10. The IDF serviceman will maintain the tradition of the IDF, will study the IDF's military heritage and will promote esprit de corps.

11. The IDF serviceman will carry out his military activities without obtruding his personal views in matters beyond his sphere of responsibility, authority and professional expertise. He will take special care not to inject his personal opinions on issues subject to public controversy of a political, social or ideological nature.

12. The IDF serviceman will make use of his military authority or status, whether command or professional, solely for the benefit of the IDF. He will never use his military authority or status improperly to advance a personal objective, or to go beyond the limits of his authority and responsibility, in letter or spirit, within or without the IDF.

13. The IDF serviceman will hold himself responsible for the outcomes of his orders. He will support those who have acted in accordance with those orders or as is proper, and will view himself as responsible for the patterns of behavior which he imposed.

14. The IDF serviceman will support his unit and its commanders in every way necessary to fulfill the unit's mission of building, promoting and employing military force. The serviceman will obey his commanders in accordance with the law and maintain respect for his commanders, peers and subordinates.

15. The IDF servicemen will never conspire to conceal any offense or mishap, and will not entertain any proposal to be party to such a conspiracy. When confronted with an offense or mishap, the serviceman will act as is reasonable and proper to correct the aberration.

16. The IDF serviceman who participates in a discussion or dispute dealing with an activity in which the IDF is involved, whether before, during or after its implementation, will express his views in accordance with his professional knowledge and conviction, with honesty, candor and courage.

17. The IDF serviceman will use the authority at his disposal towards others only as is fair, self-controlled, reasonable and professional. He will show due respect for the person and the privacy of those with whom he interacts.

18. The IDF serviceman will view his appearance in an IDF uniform as an expression of his loyalty to the values and basic principles of the IDF.

C. When Confronting the Enemy

19. The IDF serviceman will use the force at his disposal, in all actions in the face of the enemy, manifesting perseverance in his mission, courage and judgment, always ready to carry out his duties despite danger to his life.

20. The IDF serviceman will be ready to do whatever is required, and even to endanger his own life, to come to the aid of his comrades or to recover wounded comrades from the battlefield.

21. The IDF serviceman will act, when confronting the enemy, according to the letter and spirit of the laws of war. He will adhere strictly to the principle of purity of arms and to the ethics of combat.

22. The IDF serviceman will treat enemy troops and civilians in areas controlled by the IDF in accordance with the letter and spirit of the laws of war and will not exceed the limits of his authority.

23. The IDF serviceman will act fairly with self-control, reasonably, and professionally, in carrying out the responsibilities of his position, in all his contacts with civilians in areas controlled by the IDF, whether in the course of battle or afterward. He will show respect towards the beliefs, values, sacred and historical sites of all civilians and military personnel as they deem proper and to the extent possible, in keeping with the values and basic principles of the IDF and in accordance with military needs and the given circumstances.

24. The IDF serviceman will fight and exert himself to the utmost, even placing his life at risk so as not to surrender to the enemy but to overcome him. He will not surrender as long as he has a chance of carrying out his mission. Even in the absence of such a possibility, he will not surrender as long as he has contact with his commander or the ability to extricate himself from his compromised position.

25. The IDF serviceman who, despite all efforts, has been taken prisoner will act according to IDF orders; responsibly, reasonably and honorably.

D. Relations with Civilian Bodies

26. The IDF serviceman will give preference to promoting the IDF's goals, as is required of him, in accordance with regulations, orders, values and basic principles, over the advancement of the goals of any civilian body, in any instance of conflict of interests between the IDF's goals and those of that body.

27. The IDF serviceman, in all official contact with civilian bodies, will act professionally and without compromising the IDF's values, basic principles or honor.

28. The IDF serviceman may be involved in the activities of a commercial or civilian body only in accordance with the letter and spirit of existing orders and procedures, and within the limits of his position.

29. The IDF serviceman will refrain from receiving personal benefits as a result of his position, rank, status or actions. He will not request, nor will he agree to accept any favors from any agent, inside or outside the IDF, directly or indirectly, for himself or others, except in accordance with due orders and procedures.

30. The IDF serviceman will ensure that every public appearance, especially in the mass media, has prior approval, expresses outright and unreserved loyalty to the value and basic principles of the IDF, reflects the IDF's policies and decisions, and contributes to the public's confidence in the IDF.

31. The IDF serviceman will ensure that his behavior even in private circumstances cannot be interpreted as compromising the IDF's values or basic principles, does not detract from the public's confidence in the IDF, and will not contribute to the creation of patters and behavior that could harm the implementation of the IDF's values and basic principles.

E. Reserve Duty and Retirement

32. The IDF serviceman, during his reserve duty, will act according to the same values and basic principles of the IDF as those that apply to servicemen in regular service.

33. The discharged serviceman may make private use of special or sensitive information which he gained or which came to his attention during his service only after he has received the proper authorization to make commercial media or other such use of such knowledge outside of the IDF framework.

34. The discharged serviceman may make use of his military status, including his reserve or retired rank, or may grant permission to others to do so, only in civilian contexts that do not compromise the IDF's values and basic principles, or its honor and the trust which it enjoys in the public mind.

Avihu
09 September 2007 at 19:27

I find it fascinating that once I posted the real code of ethics of the IDF and people can actually read if there are no more nonsensical comments about the imaginary propagandist and self-serving "IDF Code of Ethics".

In fact, the more I share with readers the actual document in question the more it becomes clear to me that the superficial hate spewing posters about everything Israel become silent, unable to spew lies any more.

How sad that they continue to do so, and given the opportunity for it especially in publications such as the Guardian and the New Statesman!

Cybertiger
09 September 2007 at 22:16

"... the more it becomes clear to me that the superficial hate spewing posters about everything Israel become silent, unable to spew lies any more."

I'll stop puking if Mr. Katz stops spewing ... and vice versa ...

Cybertiger
09 September 2007 at 22:21

@spkurer

"Cybertiger- at least you admit it-although it was clear before-you don't care for Jews"

Blatant distortions, silly deceptions and rank dishonesty seems to be the modus operandi of those who would defend the killing of children in the defence of Israel's miserable existence.

Avihu
10 September 2007 at 06:34

Well, I am still waiting for the representatives of the "enlightened" class of well articulated British intellectuals to say something of substance regarding the code of ethics of the Israel Defence Forces as presented in full above, and all that I hear is silence!!!

Indeed, I challenge any critique to demonstrate to us a similar military code of ethics any place around the world that would match Israel's one with its thoughtfulness and ethical values.

One liners, I am afraid, will not do as a substitute for a serious analysis and discussion; indeed, they say more about the writer and his/her shallowness than about the content of the line composed.

TeachESL
10 September 2007 at 08:14

Cybertiger:

The deliberate firing on civilians is a war crime, and Islamic Jihad’s announcement last week that the massive fire was “a gift for the opening of the school year” is an admission of this crime. What we should be asking is why Israel refrains from resorting to military force against the rockets. And - as well - why there isn't an outcry from the U.N. against the crime of Hamas.

TeachESL
10 September 2007 at 08:18

Nadav - Thanks for posting the IDF Code of Ethics - I have forwarded it to others. Shana Tova!!

Robert Powell
10 September 2007 at 11:07

'Well articulated' sounds like one of your disgusting fantasies Nadav. You have no sense how sane people will find your windy rumbling to be tedious, do you? Thanks for your Code of Ethics - like the Israeli military, I've chose to ignore it! Oh and sorry not to have replied earlier. I've fully observant when it comes to weekends.

TeachESL
10 September 2007 at 12:42

Nadav,

I give you a lot of credit for trying to penetrate the thick skulls of these people. I also try to convince people. But it's not going to happen on a web site like this. But Kol HaKavod for trying!

Avihu
10 September 2007 at 13:58

TeachESL,

Yes, English is my second language, having noticed your chosen name, and I have had teachers, both here in Israel and abroad who have contributed to my knowledge of the language and I do appreciate all of you in the profession.

Thank you for your kind words. Thank you very much.

Be well, all the best and shanah tovah umevorekhet l'kha. (have a good and blessed new year, for the Anglophones among us).

Cybertiger
10 September 2007 at 14:26

"The Spirit of The IDF: The Ethical Code of the Israel Defence Forces"

Actions speak so much louder than words ... and these (too) many words are completely and utterly meaningless. Like America's much vaunted 'values' and 'principles', the ethical ideology of Israel's defensive army is an utter sham.

Cybertiger
10 September 2007 at 14:27

@spkurer

"you don't care for Jews" First they came for the Jews ... and I did not speak out ...

because I was not a Jew."

You were not a Palestinian ... and you did not speak out ... when the Jews came for the Palestinians ... but then you don't care for Palestinians.

spkurer
10 September 2007 at 17:58

Cybertiger-

No-one needs to distort your words-they are clear as day for all to see as is their motivation.

spkurer
10 September 2007 at 18:17

MARTIN LUTHER KING ON ZIONISM

"... You declare, my friend; that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist'. And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of G-d's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- this is G-d's own truth.

"Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so.

http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-022-Martin-Luther-King-Zionism.html

Sappy
10 September 2007 at 18:19

Where were the Palestinians 1 thousand years ago, where were they 2 thousand years ago, 3 thousand years ago, 4 thousand years ago. The answer is nowhere. They did not exist, even now when they have been given a land Gaza or the West Bank what has happened to it where there was trees there is rubble. What was the first thing that was done when the Israeli Settlers left. Did the palestinians use the buildings. No they tore them down, No wonder none of the other arab countries wants them.

It's such a shame that the young palestianins are not going to be given a chance to improve their lives by their parents or Government. They would prefer to have them continue to live in how they do and live in violent conflict, taking bombs to shopping centers and buses. The sad reality is the Palestians do not want peace because it would mean that the warmongers would have to get real jobs and support their families in a proper way rather than blaming everyone else for their problems.

No one has answered my point from an earlier post. Why is the arab world so quiet on the Wall built by the Egyptians to keep the Palastinians out?

alzwick13
10 September 2007 at 19:28

Sappy,

The reason many of the anti-Zionists have not responded to your post is that they are not truly interested in the welfare of Palestinians. If they were they would answer your questions.

They would also answer the question I asked in regard to a different article. Whys don't the Arab nations allow the Palestinians living in refugee camps to come live in their countries and work?

Most of the anti-Zionists here seem interested only in hurting and condemning Israel. Some others are only interested in making anti-Semitic comments, or hurling insults at other posters.

willoyen
10 September 2007 at 19:28

since you bring up Martin Luther King, let's have a Jewish point of view, that of Sigmund Freud, who was invited by the chairman of the committee for the settlement of Jews in Palestine, to stand up for the Zionist project. This reponse, by uncle Sigmund, was locked up by the European Zionist colonialists, and only released in 2004. Here is the text in English:

Vienna, Berggaße 19

26 February, 1930

Herr Doktor,

I cannot do what you wish. My aversion towards interesting the public in my personality is insurmountable, and in the present critical situation it seems to me to be singularly inappropriate. Who wishes to influence a large number of people must have something resounding and enthusiastic to say to them, and that, my sober appraisal of Zionism prevents. I have certainly the best sympathy for their efforts, I am proud of our University in Jerusalem, and am glad for the prosperity of our settlements. But, on the other hand, I do not believe that Palestine can ever become a Jewish state, or that the Christian or the Islamic world will ever be ready to give over their holy sites to Jewish protection. It would seem to me more sensible to found a Jewish homeland in land that is historically uncharged. But I know that such a rational idea would never have appealed to the masses nor have won the support of the wealthy. I should also add my regret that the far-from-realistic fanaticism of our compatriots carries its share of blame for the arousal of the mistrust of the Arabs. I can feel no sympathy at all for the misplaced piety which makes a national relic out of a bit of Herod’s Wall, and because of it, is prepared to provoke the feelings of the inhabitants.

Judge for yourself, whether, with such a critical point of view, I am the right person to play the role of comforter to a people moved by an unjustified hope.

…….Your devoted,

Freud.

Robert Powell
10 September 2007 at 19:40

"The sad reality is the Palestians do not want peace because it would mean that the warmongers would have to get real jobs and support their families in a proper way rather than blaming everyone else for their problems." No racism there then. It just keeps on seeping out of these angry Zionist postings doesn't it!

ikotubo
10 September 2007 at 22:46

Why should this man be allowed a space to defend his country's atrocities in the first place? Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that he is one of Israel's numerous war criminals?

g.orwell
11 September 2007 at 04:00

Defending the Israel is the equivelent to defending the apartheid, or the berlin wall. They even have their own wall for godsakes!

The Israeli Government has a blatant disregard for human rights and international law, as reported by Amnesty International in their 2007 annual report.

( http://thereport.amnesty.org/page/1059/eng/ )

In the 40's they had warsaw, now they have the west bank and the Gaza strip, ghettos for second-class citizens. If you force illegal occupation, oppression, poverty and institutionalized discrimination on a people, they have no choice but violent resistance.

Who are to blame? The IDF with its huge American-Backed military spending budget who, by the way, kills MORE civillians in Palestine and lebbanon, or the Palestianians who can only resist through self-destructive violence by killing civialians? I dont support terrorism, but Israel is a Terrorist state forcing the Palestians to either be complacent in the face of oppression, or blow themselves up.

How would you resist?

TeachESL
11 September 2007 at 05:18

The education of palestinian children: In Arabic with English translation

http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive.tv-11822-israelnews-watching-arab-world-children-recruited-terror

Cybertiger
11 September 2007 at 08:01

"Cybertiger- No-one needs to distort your words-they are clear as day for all to see as is their motivation."

Convinced, you certainly take no convincing spkurer! Are you convincable? It is always possible that I might be pro-Semitic and also pro-Zionist. Would that make you feel more comfortable, safer, less hysterical, less in denial, happier?

Pencils
11 September 2007 at 09:06

Hitler killed 6 million Jews, so the jews should be allowed to exterminate 1 billion Arabs. Simple. Anyone who can't see that is a moron. Anyone who doesn't like it is a Nazi. Nuke Iran now! Then Pakistan and Indonesia and Egypt, Libya. Leave Saudi Arabia for a while because they're alright - they respect human(American) rights! And while we're at it - nuke Berlin, Paris, Rome, Athens, London. Thrpw the 2500 year antisemitic -barbarism of Europe into the dustbin of history!

Then after the battle of Armageddon 50,000 Jews will convert to Christianity and live in Christ's Kingdom on Earth with the rest of the true believers! Or something like that1

Cybertiger
11 September 2007 at 10:19

"Why should this man be allowed a space to defend his country's atrocities in the first place? Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that he is one of Israel's numerous war criminals?"

I agree with you ikotubo.

I believe Captain Benjamin Rutland, defensive propagandist for the Israeli democracy, should be taken forth to the International Criminal Court at The Hague, tried and convicted of crimes against humanity.

Thence he will be taken to a place of execution ... shot in the leg ... and the killing confirmed with 17 short range shots to the body.

Avihu
11 September 2007 at 15:48

I thought some readers would like to look into the following information:

Marva - Israel Outdoor Experience

Marva tests you against the physical and emotional challenges of Israel, its dilemmas and its people. The program’s activities range from camp craft, navigation and topography to hikes, lectures, seminars and walking tours, participation in training exercises and living in field conditions. Special emphasis is placed on Israel’s security situation and settlement of the land, through lectures on specific social and political problems.

All lectures are conducted in Hebrew, as is the entire program. Since participants come from all over the world, Hebrew becomes the common language of communication, allowing for significant improvement of Hebrew skills. Participants train alongside young Israelis, giving them a taste of life inside the Gadna and a rare opportunity for a personal challenge.

The program is based in the southern Negev at a Gadna base. Within the framework of the program, participants spend considerable time in various other parts of the country, including Jeruselam, Sde Boker, the Golan Heights, the Jordan Valley, the Wingate Institute near Netanya, development towns and kibbutzim. Lectures are also given on study options in Israel as well as other pertinent subjects on life in Israel.

What makes Marva unique?

If you want to push yourself to the limit - learning about yourself and Israel along the way, Marva might just be for you. Marva is a group program like no other and is suitable for young Jewish adults who are considering Aliyah or who want to strengthen their ties to Israel.

Summary of Benefits

Wide variety of activities ranging from using a night

navigation to field training

Train alongside young Israelis

Improve your Hebrew skills

Unique group experience

Personal challenge

willoyen
11 September 2007 at 18:17

oh sure! no doubt about it. It's wonderful, this programme of peaceful training and moral advancement. Just what a colony of western and russian and other assorted settlers needs to protect itself from the natives, and, eventually, remove them, destroy them, cleanse the land of them.

One doesn't need to read the code! After all Bush called himself a man of peace! Ha ha! As a famous Jew once said " it is by your deeds ye shall be known" - Jesus of Nazareth, was it? or Paul? never mind, it still holds good, and it is by your deeds that you are known, Israel. last year, in a daring attack, the Palestinians (I know, they are not really Palestinians, they shouldn't really exist), captured Gilad Shalit. They paid a heavy price for it in Gaza with the usual invasion by the tolerant IDF destroying even more of what ever rubble and desperation was left to destroy. Same in Lebanon. The challenge of Hezbollah had to be dealt with "once and for all", as Captain Jacob Dallol of the IDF put it at the time, ( born. brought up, and educated in Chicago, before emigrating to Israel) and indeed that's the tolerant treatment Lebanon got, devastation, devastation and murder (1300 killed) and mayhem and war-crimes - it's a war crime to attack civilian populations, I believe, but that doesn't deter the noble IDF dedicated as it is to the cause of honour, and peace..... ha!

Avihu
11 September 2007 at 18:43

Willoyen, now that you have vomited all over - and I do hope you have cleaned up after yourself – can you say anything of meaning and substance, or will it be yet another burst of the same stuff? If it is the latter, I suggest you do it at the nearest loo.

TeachESL
11 September 2007 at 19:30

Hey Pencils and Willoyen: Tell me, who were the Palestinians before 1947? Where does the word 'Jew' come from? Who were the majority population in Jerusalem in the mid-1800's. Why do Jews pray in the direction of Jerusalem? How many times in the Koran is the name Jerusalem mentioned? How many times is it mentioned in the Bible?

sonicdeathmonkey
11 September 2007 at 22:02

I got to the first line and found a blatant misrepresentation of Matthew Holehouse's arguments:

"In his article The British Children who train to fight in Israel, Matthew Holehouse makes a highly inaccurate comparison between the Marva and Gadna programmes run by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and summer camps run by the extremist terrorist organisation, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)."

Holehouse made no such comparison, the target of his comparison was the British public's opinion of children receiving military training by a foreign authority.

Why should I read any further? The rest of the article will clearly follow on in this dishonest tone.

Your problem, Captain Rutland, is that you have no arguments to counter Holehouse. And so you resort to lies.

Sappy
11 September 2007 at 22:50

Sonicdeathmonkey. - Your post sum's it all up. Why should you read further? The reason is to get the whole story. Not just to pick out the bits you want to somehow link to your belief or view.

Can you explain why in the Gaza strip / West Bank there are stories of children starving, no medicine, no jobs etc.. yet they always seem to be able to find money to pay for the rockets that are launched into Israel.

louismfried
12 September 2007 at 11:52

Cybertiger/Pierre:

Your assinine comments have as much probity and relevance as those of the discredited Mr. Holehouse.

Next year in Jeruslem.

Cybertiger
12 September 2007 at 12:57

"Next year in Jeruslem."

Hadn't you heard? The Zionists are moving to Texas. Next year in Houston.

PS. I think Houston is going to have a problem!

Pencils
12 September 2007 at 16:43

Harry - sorry, that's a bit too cryptic for me.

TeachESL - The Palestinians before 1947 were rather obviously the people living in the land known since at least the time of the Philistines as Palestine (at least amongst other things like Canaan, Judea)..

Where does the word Jew come from? - I don't know where the English word 'Jew' came from - Judea? but, re the group of people who it refers to, I can't recommend highly enough 'the Bible Unearthed' by Israel's top archaeologists Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman, which is the state of the argument at present. Nothing is certain - a lot depends on the chronology of ancient Egypt and that could turn out to be completely wrong, but it seems certain that the Kingdom of David and Solomon never existed - at least in the form described in the Bible. There is no evidence for the Exodus and even the 'return' from Babylon is uncertain. There were certainly some hill tribes in Palestine or Canaan distinguished by their religious practices by at least 700 BC - anything else is uncertain. They first show up in solid history in the times of the Babylonians, Persians and Seleucid Greeks. It is possible that there may have been times previously when they had an independent state, maybe even a powerful one for a short time, but not even the Biblical accounts indicate that they usually had access to the coast or usually controlled the whole of Palestine. The earliest map I have seen of Jewish population distribution is of the situation just before the Roman's exiled the Jews from Judea. At that time there were more jews living outside of Judea than in it. There may have been as many jews living in Mesopotamia as in Judea, and there were Jewish populations scattered throught the colonies of both the Greeks and the Phoenicians/Carthaginians. That's something that could do with a lot more discussion. I think that there are plenty of clues that trade between the red sea and the Mediterranean was an important interest of the Jewish states, and the story of Ahab, Omri and Jezebel and their links with the Phoenicians point to a probable explanation - they developed a talent for trade and had a client relationship with the Phoenicians who allowed them to set up their own trading posts in their colonies - which seems to have continued under the Persians; and when the Greeks conquered the Persian Empire, the Greek colonies were open for trade, and this continued under the Romans. When their nation was dissolved they became, in Europe anyway, effectively a merchant guild with a common ethnic origin and religion, while Mesopotamia became the main Jewish population and religious centre. The Palestinians are the descendants of whoever remained or whoever came later- I think it unlikely that even in Roman times there was a Jewish majority in the Roman province of Judea , because it include non-jewish regions. Got a better explanation ?

"Who were the majority population in Jerusalem in the mid-1800's. Why do Jews pray in the direction of Jerusalem? How many times in the Koran is the name Jerusalem mentioned? How many times is it mentioned in the Bible?"

Answer - don't know, don't care! I think you've fallen into the trap of taking as reality a myth that is no more real than ' the Lord of the Rings' - and is a lot less fun! What if the hobbits should buy up 6% of England from foreign absentee landowners, and the UN should give them 1/2 of the country and evict the English - after all, what Holy book mentions the English.? There are no hobbits? Well, I'm sure there are hordes of Americans and Russians who could come up with the papers to show that they had one hobbit grandparent.

mrjingles
12 September 2007 at 20:42

"Can you explain why in the Gaza strip / West Bank there are stories of children starving, no medicine, no jobs etc.. "

Because there are always plenty of anti-Semitic idiots around.

sonicdeathmonkey
13 September 2007 at 09:24

Sappy, you didn't score highly at reading comprehenesion, did you? There is no "whole story"- as evidenced by Rutland's misrepresentation and obfuscation. Its just a propaganda exercise.

No, let me try an asnwer to your Gaza Strip question: The reason there are children starving in the Gaza strip is because Israel has destroyed their power plant, sewage treatement works, desalinisation plants, crops, families, buildings, industry and people and closed the borders almost permanenetly to trade. If you have none of these things left, you can't feed your children. You have nothing to do all day. So why not dig out that crate of rockets that some militants buried in your back garden a few years back and engage in some pathetic attempt at retribution? Its not right. I'm not justifying that attempt. I'm just trying to elucidate cause and effect.

Captain Rutland claims: "The assertion that the IDF intentionally or indiscriminately attacks civilians is both wrong and defamatory."

I don't have to post any evidence on this board at all to back up an observation that this is a blatant mistruth. Amnesty International, The International Committee for the Red Cross, Medecins Sans Frontiers and Human Rights Watch have all presented cases that reveal the lie in this statement. Who are we going to believe? The IDF or the four most credible organisations in human rights advocation today?

As Aldous Huxley said:

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

Sappy
14 September 2007 at 08:58

Sonicdeathmoneky. - " so why not dig up the crate of rockets" - So what's the difference between setting off rockets randomly and the IDF killing Hamas ( a worldwide regarded terrorist organisation) leaders. I'll tell you- Hamas don't care who they kill as long as they are Jews. The IDF targets those who are resonsible for killing, for "burying" the rockets.

I can see the scene now. "what shall we get from the garden today. You know the garden which has been bombed so I can't grow anything for my family.. I know I'll get the rockets that those kind men left me. Lets get the kids out and teach them how to use them.

Instead of spending money on rockets etc.. why don't the Palastinions build the power plants up etc .. up again. As I mentioned above the Palestinans destroyed the buildings left by the settlers.

If they don't have money for the rockets then no further attacks will take place then the cycle of destruction can come to an end. Why should they rely on the Israelis to provide everything. If they want a seperate country then have one and learn to get on with your neighbours. It will take effort on both sides but it has to start somewhere.

Credible institutuions - Amenesty International, (Jump on any bandwagon) The Red Cross ( Who won't let Israel have a branch there because the Arab's will withdraw funding).

Human Rights - What about the rights of the Israelis to live their lives. (as do the Palestinians) or those of any other countries around the world where they have been bombed by Islamist organisations.

SonicDeathMonkey - you have made some good points, and nobody can claim that their side has not made errors. But there needs to be an end to the violence so that people can do something more worthwhile in their lives than have killing and hatred everyday. - Happy New Year to one and all _ Even if it'snot your one !!

TeachESL
16 September 2007 at 17:47

From Pencils:

TeachESL - The Palestinians before 1947 were rather obviously the people living in the land known since at least the time of the Philistines

No, the Palestinians in 1947 were the Jews. The Arabs never used the term.

And, yes, the word Jew comes from the word Judea. You can quote all you want from these Bible Revisionists. It doesn't make them true! And those tht call themselves 'palestinians' today can do all kinds of historical gymnastics to make themselves descendents of the Phillistines - that doesn't make it true, either! We Jews have been praying towards Jerusalem for the past 2,000 years since our expulsion from there by the Romans. The word Jerusalem can be found in thousands of places in the Bible and in our other holy writings, including our prayer books. It is found nowhere in the Islamic writings as a place of holiness to them! Every year at the end of Passover and Yom Kippur we say, "Next year in Jerusalem!" This has been said for the past 2,000 years! When we pray for rain in the galut/diaspora, we pray for rain in Eretz Yisrael (The Land of Israel)!

sonicdeathmonkey
19 September 2007 at 09:38

Sappy, what are the Palestinians meant to rebuild a power station with? Rocks? They are under a total Israeli enforced embargo! They can't even fish in the sea or they will be immediately attacked by gun boats or shelled from over the horizon!

An end to the violence is a dream whilst Israel refuses to recognise the rights of Palestinians to form their own state. Until that happens do you really think that any Palestinian political group is going to recognise the right of a secular, democratic Israel to exist? Let alone the aggressively expansionist, exceptionalist entity it currently exists as.

Sepharad
20 September 2007 at 23:07

Just when I think I'm becoming ever so slightly paranoid re rise of anti-semitism I stumble on a thread like this. I finally agree with Woody Allen, that the reality of the death of the six million is that it was a record, and records are meant to be broken. I was young, registering voters in the South and worrying about the safety of my family in Israel, and nearly wept when MLKing said people who say they are anti-Zionists truly hate Jews. MLK knew something about bigotry (and I guess Bobby Kennedy did too, before he was gunned down by a "Palestinian"). Captain Rutland, thanks for trying but the audience you were trying to reach are that famous subset of liberals who are tolerant -- as long as you agree with them. Don't any of you guys ever look at at a map, or read history?

sonicdeathmonkey
23 September 2007 at 01:20

Pencils wrote:

"Another jewish writer Kinky Friedman ( amusing in his early books but reactionary and ultimately obnoxious) has a phrase that sums up the likes of NadavKatz perfectly - " a black belt in Jewish whining"."

- this applies to you too Sepharad.

Someone quoted another line at me about the accusations of anti-semitism which are dealt about as frequently and as ignorantly as accusation so Nazism are by the less-conservative commentators; something along the lines of:

"An anti-semite was once someone who hated Jews. Now its someone the Jews hate."

- of course banding people together under theumbrella of "Jews" is shocking as their are some wonderfully enlightened and secular Jewish voices out there calling for sane policy's in the middle east. Bizarrely, most accusations of anti-semitism seem to come from the US Cristo-fascist hegemony these days. I've talked to quite a few Jews who are perfectly open and reasonable about zionism and are appalled by the Israeli nations drift into the far right-wing politics it now espouses and its attempt to advocate this position on behalf of Jews across the world without their consent. A perfect example is the Iranian Jews who were faced with shameless attempts to bribe them into relocating to Israel with offers of £30,000 per family. As the largest Jewish community in the middle east outside of Israel and with a historical presence in that region going back several thousand of years they were grossly offended by the offer, preferring to live as 2nd class citizens in their homeland than to relocate.

"the Society of Iranian Jews dismissed them as "immature political enticements" and said their national identity was not for sale."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2125155,00.html

BegbiesEvilTwin
24 March 2008 at 17:44

As the NS doesn't have a print editor never mind an editor's blog I'm going to cross-post this. Would anyone from the NS wish to comment on it?

Thursday, March 20 2008

Purim Exclusive: Prince William Serves in IDF

Prince_william3It can be revealed that British editors are maintaining a self-imposed conspiracy of silence over the fact that Prince William volunteers for the IDF in the spokesman's unit.

Prince Harry, who just returned from 10 weeks in Afghanistan, exclusively told Backspin that his older brother gives regular press briefings under the pseudonym, Capt. Benjamin Rutland.

Senior IDF spokesman Charles Philip Arthur George Wales would neither confirm nor deny speculation that Prince William also authored an article in the New Statesman defending the IDF's Marva and Gadna programs.

Happy Purim to all our readers.

Original link: http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2008/03/exclusive-princ.html

Link to NS article referred to in the above text: http://www.newstatesman.com/200709070002