The British children who train to fight in Israel

305 comments from readers

spkurer
03 September 2007 at 20:33

To anyone who has lead or been on one of these course -this article is just laughable. Rediculous' I can't even begin a critical appraisal.

Roll on bloggers -more trash for your predjudices...see below:-

elder
03 September 2007 at 22:27

Let's see - Holehouse is comparing a camp run for 12-15 year olds, that teach that dying for Allah while killing Jews is the ultimate goal, with a camp run for adults that teaches the importance of peace while preparing for war.

What a scoop!

dennisberg
03 September 2007 at 22:47

Haha... this article is so off the mark it's hilarious! Marva and Gadna are nothing more than holidays that people go on for a bit of fun and a physical challenge. They are characterised by girls crying because they've broken nails and boys trying to look cool holding a gun that couldn't be fired even if they had been given any bullets to fire from it.

To suggest that any of these people are actually being trained to fight for Israel is laughable (and rather worrying if you're an Israeli!).

To try to draw an equivalence between Marva and a camp "organised by Islamic Jihad, which were teaching Palestinian adolescents to become suicide bombers" is actually quite sick and highly irresponsible.

amba
03 September 2007 at 22:52

The difference here surely is that there has never been a Jewish terrorist attack on British soil, whilst there have been several by Muslim extremists. Furthermore, the Maarva programme is in no way military training, but rather a simulation of something intrinsic to the life of every single Israeli citizen - the necessity to defend their homeland against a permanent external threat to their very existence, such like we have never faced in modern British history.

manesh
03 September 2007 at 23:03

http://tinyurl.com/ytesw6

This clip I found on YouTube pretty much shows that it's more a bit of fun for these kids and not a terrorist training camp. If you look at more of those videos, you realise this is just a summer camp that gives foreign Jews a taste of what it must be like to serve in the army, but which isn't actual army training!!

Michael
03 September 2007 at 23:13

"Shooting an M16 gun… physically lying on the land of Israel, learning how to defend it, gave me an immense sense of pride" writes a breathless Aimee Riese, a London schoolgirl and recent participant, in the Jewish Chronicle.

I didn't know it was possible to write breathlessly.

Tim Holmes
03 September 2007 at 23:32

For those commenters above who don't appear to have actually read the article, the only comparison made in it is the putative one in the last sentence of the article; and the answer to it is so obvious as barely to need stating.

As for the laughable argument that "there has never been a Jewish terrorist attack on British soil" - so we wouldn't be arresting these Pakistani kids if their targets were principally non-British? Please.

In any case, there have been plans for such serious terrorist attacks, quite well-documented. According to the Times, for instance:

"JEWISH terrorists plotted to assassinate Ernest Bevin, the foreign secretary, in 1946, as part of their campaign to establish the state of Israel, newly declassified intelligence files have shown. The plan was devised by Irgun, the insurgent group led by Menachem Begin, who went on to become a Nobel peace prize winner and prime minister of Israel.

"Begin, whom MI6 believed was backed by the Soviet Union, planned to send five terrorist cells to Britain to carry out bombings and assassinations that would “beat the dog in his own kennel”."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12205.htm

Also documented here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/05...

But it doesn't stop the pro-Israeli nutters from coming out of the woodwork, and it doesn't stop the media applying a blatant double-standard on Israeli state terrorism - something I've drawn attention to before.

http://memory-hole.blog.co.uk/2007/07/11/are_saddam_s_republ...

Matthew Holehouse
03 September 2007 at 23:35

Dennisberg, Amba, Manesh -

the article makes it quite clear that the Israeli army does not intend to use its Marva recruits as soldiers and does not regard them as such; hence the statement from the JAFI spokesperson dismissing those that imagine otherwise. My understanding of it is the same as that of Isi Genn Bash - that this is a case of teenagers 'playing at soldiers' and that Marva aims to give people a 'fun taste' of the IDF.

Given the statistics available oninjuries and deaths sustained by children as a result of suicide bombings and IDF operations, as summarised in the link below, I think I can be forgiven for finding such a 'summer camp' a rather depressing and inglorious project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_and_minors_in_the_Isra...#Palestinian

speegster
03 September 2007 at 23:37

I wholeheartedly agree with all these comments, especially dennisberg, who speaks of irresponsibilty, though I think he's being too nice.

This comparison is risibly asinine - has Mr Holehouse ever even been to Israel and seen one of these camps himself? He literally has no idea what he is talking about, and yet his article is featured on the front page of the NS website - shameful practice for a weekly supposedly dedicated to quality journalism.

What, for instance, of the Army Cadet Force, here in the UK, that provides not adults, as described in this article, but children as young as 12 with military training, and is funded by the Ministry of Defence, which prosecutes a war in Iraq to which Mr Holehouse is apparently opposed?

dennisberg
03 September 2007 at 23:57

Mr Holehouse... firstly, much respect to you for coming on and responding to our comments.

You say that your article "makes it quite clear that the Israeli army does not intend to use its Marva recruits as soldiers", yet the title of the article is "The British children who train to fight in Israel". This title is somewhat contradictory to your argument and highly misleading if , as you say, none of these participants are actually trained in order to fight.

I do appreciate your view that Marva and Gadna may not be your ideal choice of Summer Camp. However, by introducing the article with references to Jihadist camps where suicide bombers are recruited and trained, you are undeniably suggesting that there is a comparison to be made between the two camps and that is grossly unfair and entirely irresponsible.

amba
04 September 2007 at 00:32

Tim Holmes - I have indeed read the article, and I think that last paragraph is the one that needs addressing.

Before I make my point, allow me to say that even one civilian death is too many, and this is why I took my year out to work for Israel's ambulance service in Ashkelon, just north of the Gaza strip. I remember my first day of volunteering, when I went to the Erez crossing in Gaza to transport an 18 month Palestinian boy called Ahmed and his mother to a hospital in Tel Aviv, to fix a congenital heart defect. We treated about 6 Palestinians every day, just at my checkpoint. Are these the actions of a country whose army doesn't care about civilians?

Israel does not indiscriminately attack civilians. That only happens when - purely for example - someone fires a kassam rocket at a town with no real target in mind, as long as that target is Jewish. Compare this to an army which does not actively try and kill civilians, and it's very hard to draw a moral equivalence.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Mr. Holehouse, there is everything to gain from arguing that the motives of a Palestinian terrorist out to cause terror, and a conscripted 19 year old boy protecting his country, could not be more opposite.

Furthermore Mr. Holmes, I am not suggesting that attacks on other countries are OK, I am merely illustrating that Jewish terrorists are rare. So rare that your first example occurred in 1946!

My final point is to Mr. Holehouse:

"the article makes it quite clear that the Israeli army does not intend to use its Marva recruits as soldiers and does not regard them as such"

I appreciate this. The fact is that Israel doesn't consider them soldiers. They don't consider themselves soldiers. Nobody considers them soldiers any more than a member of the RAF Cadets is a soldier. This is not some secret militia training post that you have discovered. This is a well documented summer camp that serves to highlight the particular troubles faced by teenagers in Israel - regardless of their own personal political beliefs.

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 09:37

Dennisberg. You are simultaneously amused and sickened by this article. How very confusing for you. Amba defending homelands seems to be something you think only Israel has a right to. What about the 'occupied' territories. Don't those who live there have the same entitlement and without all that handy American hardware available to the Israelis what are they supposed to do? Throw toilet rolls?

Colonel Blimp
04 September 2007 at 10:22

I knew an Israeli girl once. My what beauties!

Cybertiger
04 September 2007 at 10:26

@amba

"Israel does not indiscriminately attack civilians."

Utter nonsense!! The IDF not only attacks civilans, it kills Palestinian children with callous discrimination and with utter impunity.

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html

Check out the Palestinian child who was murdered on 5 October 2004. What threat to the homeland was Iman al-Hams? Why did this little girl die? And what of the murderer; what punisment did he receive for the cold, callous, calculated killing?

Daniel
04 September 2007 at 10:43

It is morally reprehensible to make a comparison between camps training young people to martyr themselves and to kill and maim innocent civilians and an educational experiential program that encourages young Jews to be proud enough of their Jewish national identity to fight for it. Marva and Gadna programmes are more similar to Cadet army programmes int his country. Let's hear you condem those programs for their militaristic ideologies and you may have the right to take a stand against youth military programmes anywhere, but to deny the Jews the right to encourage its youth to stand and fight for the rights of the Jewish people and the Jewish state is anti-semitic.

Tom Paine
04 September 2007 at 10:59

British Jewish children are British subjects. If they wish to learn about military service then they can join the British CCF! Going abroad to a propaganda camp to learn about hand-to-hand combat, drilling and weaponry from any another nation is entirely objectionable. It is not anti-semitism to say this. How would you feel, Daniel, if British Iranian teenagers were going to similar camps in Iran?

arag
04 September 2007 at 11:34

"Utter nonsense!! The IDF not only attacks civilans, it kills Palestinian children with callous discrimination and with utter impunity."

Join the Israeli army and then tell me that this is true. Israel does not kill Palestinian children, it helps them. I personally can give you an example of this from the year I spent there this year, helping Palestinian children every day who were taken to Israeli hospitals to have heart operations paid for by Israel. THis is not a country that kills civilians. It is a country that has been put in the position where it has to defend itself daily and sometimes civilians are killed when terrorists hide among them. Israel targets specific terrorists which it believes to be a threat to Israel. If these terrorists hide among civilians it is inevitable that someone will be killed, the IDF apologises for every civilian death.

WIth regards to marva, it is in not a propaganda camp. It is simply trying to young Jewish teenagers who want to know more about Israel a taste of the army which is intrinsic to life in Israel.

Cybertiger
04 September 2007 at 12:26

@arag

"Israel does not kill Palestinian children, it helps them ... "

... into the after-life ... and on into Paradise ....

In 2004, 118 such children were helped by the forces that defend Israel.

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html

During the same year, 8 Israeli children were so helped by Palestinian freedom fighters. One can only conclude that the Israeli democracy is considerably more effective at helping semitic children.

PS. "Revenge, at first though sweet, Bitter ere long, back on itself recoils". I believe Israel is now a Paradise Lost.

rudz
04 September 2007 at 12:32

Matthew Holehouse these inglorious summer camps: involve social action, volunteering and tzedekah (righteousness).

As well as volunteering on an army base...

- I volunteered at an old age home, met and engaged with the Arab community and other minority groups

- helped poor Ethiopians start a life

- I coached football in a disadvantaged poor economic community.

- We also volunteered in soup kitchens and at multi-racial schools e.g. Haddasah Neurim in the north.

- I was a firefighter for 3 months in the city of Haifa.

I apologise if these programmes are therefore 'depressing' and 'inglorious'.

Your article Mr Holehouse clearly lacks basic research and knowlege about these programmes and I actually find that fact rather embarrassing.

These schemes take place on summer tour and on a gap year. If volunteering your time to help a war ridden part of the world achieve peace and understand its problems is an inglorious act, I wonder what isn't inglorious.

'And these kids, in olive fatigues with thick glossy hair and ubiquitous aviator sunglasses, look sharp. "Fifty per cent of going on Israel tour is about getting laid" one participant tells me.'

You haven't contextualised or explained why you used this quote?

Cybertiger
04 September 2007 at 13:02

rudz is perplexed about youth, sex, and the religious difference.

""Fifty per cent of going on Israel tour is about getting laid" one participant tells me.' You haven't contextualised or explained why you used this quote?"

I hear it told that the young British male thinks about sex every six seconds. Do Jewish ones think differently?

Matthew Holehouse
04 September 2007 at 13:23

To take points in turn:

Rudz - I am aware that these other programmes do feature as part of gap year programmes. Thank you for bringing up the fact that there are a wide range of activities available, of which marva is just one. In fact, a number of the Jewish students I spoke to chose to take options such as firefighting, teaching and journalism because they felt marva makes little contribution to Israel and is 'playing at soldiers'. Good call.

Various posters - Yeah fine, I also think that cadet forces in this country suck too. And when the MoD organises a nine-week course for members of the Anglo-Saxon diaspora involving marching, shooting machine guns, hand-to-hand combat, and lessons in British history, I'd be very happy to give it the same treatment. As I would were Iran and Yemen to organise a similar programme.

Arag - Is Marva a propaganda camp? Obviously this is difficult for many given the pejorative connotations of the term propaganda. But read the article. Marva involves 'lessons' on Zionism and IDF ethics; it seeks, in the words of one Jewish gap student, to equate serving in the IDF with having a fun time and to identify with soldiers in the IDF; and that the spokesperson for the JAFI told me that the "raison d'etre of everything we do" (his words) is to "educate them [Diaspora teenagers] to defend their spiritual homeland by arguing for it". Propaganda, education, call it what you will.

As for comparisons with camps run by Islamic Jihad &c - please note that the assertion that Jews on gap years are terrorists was never made (although if the IDF is so precious about being compared to violent groups it should consider killing fewer civilians). Rather, the comparison is made to demonstrate that within the conflict, the cooption and indoctrination of the young by politicians is not the preserve of the Palestinians.

Daniel - seriously? Please...

Ben Zona
04 September 2007 at 13:46

Very poor journalism, the author has really dug deep for this one. Seems he trawls through the Jewish Chronicle each week for stories. One must ask what his motivation is here, with some of the insinuations, one can see that he has very sinister motivations and a clear agenda.

Correct me if I'm wrong, don't Brits have school kids cadets that play war games at weekends and during school holidays?

spkurer
04 September 2007 at 13:56

Mathew- first of all- well done for responding on the blog

Having said that-the title and in particular the last paragraph present an outrageous mis-representation of these programs.

Thousands of us who have benefited enormously from these experiences find your article-what can I say -laughable. It is just so far removed from reality.

It's like I go watch Man U-and one guy shouts out to Keano as he takes on Lampard- 'murder him' and come home to find Man U fans being accused in the press of mass murder-I know a very facile comparison but if you actually knew anything about these tours you would realize how equally rediculous your comments are.

The vast majority of the leadership (possibly all) of these groups are left leaning, progressive and passionate about working towards peace-not only within Israel but the wider world in general.

Your article and the New Statesman has provided another wonderful opportunity for Israel bashers and anti-semites to let loose.

Mathew-seriously?Please....

rudz
04 September 2007 at 14:33

Matthew first of all I appreciate the time you've taken to respond to our comments.

I genuinely do believe your article is a poor piece of journalism. Many of those interviewed who dismiss the concept of the marva programme actually contradict the name of the article, 'the british children who train to fight in israel,' therefore I'm suprised you use these people as evidence to backup your line of argument.

lewis
04 September 2007 at 14:35

Matthew, how can you say that you would treat a similar program run by Britain/Iran/Yemen in the same way?

There is a clear distinction between countries such as Israel and Britain, which are free and democratic, and Iran and Yemen, which are known sponsors of terrorism.

The Israel Defence Forces are not a terrrorist organisation, and as such people who participate in these programs have every right to do so.

ColinNB
04 September 2007 at 14:37

Matthew,

One of your most damning accusations is that: "Marva demonstrates how some Zionists have inadvertently come to mimic their opponents in defining Israel solely by its militarism."

Firstly, as you now acknowledge, the gap-year programmes mentioned include Maarva as one component of a year-long course designed to strengthen young Jews' identity and connection with both their religion and with Israel. These normally include studying about Judaism and Israeli history, volunteering, learning Hebrew, etc: hardly a myopic focus on the military aspects of Israel, making your comment seem rather silly. Your tone appears to ridicule those who think that the IDF is an integral part of Israeli society. I struggle to imagine that you are so ignorant as to think that the IDF does not play a major role in shaping Israeli society. It is especially influential in the lives of young adults who have to serve for 2/3 years. Surely any organisation that claims to be giving young Jewish adults a year of learning about and experiencing Israeli society must give them an experience of the IDF, where all of their Israeli contemporaries serve? To fail to do so would paint a very false picture of Israel to their participants.

As I said, I doubt that you are stupid enough to think that the IDF is not a major influence in Israeli society. Thus, unless you are simply writing in order to be sensationalist, without knowing the reality of these programmes (a possibility), there must be some other, underlying, question that you are trying to pose. It is this: Should British Jews be learning about their religion, culture and, most of all, Israel?

The answer, of course, is an overwhelming “yes”. To Tom Paine, the thing that makes you uneasy about British-Iranians going to Iran is that Iran is a fundamentalist dictatorship whose values are diametrically opposed to those of Britain and who recently carried out an act of war on the Royal Navy. A better comparison would be: “How would you feel if British Australian teenagers [sic] were going to similar camps in Australia?” Doesn’t sound quite as bad now, does it?

Your tone in your last post seems to cast doubts on educating young Jews about Israel as their “spiritual homeland”. This is one of the fundamental beliefs of Judaism – a cursory glance at the Bible, Talmud or Prayer Book would make this blindingly obvious. Are you opposed to young Jews being taught Jewish values? However, the Jewish community’s primary objective is to pass on these values to the next generation, to create proud and knowledgeable young Jews, and to reverse the worryingly high rates of assimilation. It is abundantly clear to anybody with any understanding of the Jewish community that gap-years in Israel, including programmes like Maarva, are the best way to achieve these objectives. Unless you are opposed to the Jewish community instilling strong Jewish identities in its young people, then you should encourage and praise such programmes.

mbrad
04 September 2007 at 15:01

is this actually a serious article?

gadna and marva are glorified out door persuits trips

there is almost no affiliation to any army work

and is simply there to show foreign children a small glimpse of how it is to be an israeli citizen

to compare this to jihadist camps is more than insulting it is disgusting

this is about self discovery and overcoming challenges not properganda

seriously in future please could there be some sort of fact in them

thanks matt

benjaminfinger
04 September 2007 at 15:25

It is remarkable that The New Statesman has failed to analyse this article in anyway before publishing it.

It seems painfully obvious that this is a very poor article which cannot truthfully be termed as "journalism". Holehouse approaches this subject with either extreme anti-Israel bias or severe ignorance of the history of the country, the politics of the region and the true function of the programme in question.

Why an article like this was commissioned in the first place seems even more remarkable. The truth is that the programme is part of the Education Department of the Israeli Defence Forces. It is set-up to educate diaspora Jews about the true function and practises of the people who defend Israel. This knowledge is then used to combat the anti-Israel propaganda in diaspora societies; specifically on University campuses and in the press.

But if this was reported - it would be completely unsensational - and thus worthless in a world where newspapers are highly commercial institutions instead of truthful informants of current world affairs.

The New Statesman should be ashamed at having given a platfrom to such a sensationalist and overtly subjective article.

Furthermore, Holehouse should re-evaluate the reasons why he entered Journalism in the first place and questions whether he is really reporting truth or constructing fallacy to support his own political leanings.

I am personally aware that the way in which Holehouse conduct some of is research, especially with regards to procuring quotes from participants was done with considerable subterfuge. One now has to question why he needed to go to these measures to aquire opinion from mere teenagers!

youthworker
04 September 2007 at 15:27

Mr Holehouse is correct in asserting that games of moral equivalence are worthless when it comes to Middle East violence, and yet, he does. I think he gives too much credence to the ‘military’ aspect of the programme. In reply to his deliciously provocative questions, let me ask him this, when was the last attack by graduates of this programme on the tube or at an airport? Are participants taking part in combat? Is the IDF seeking to attack British interests or undermine her society? I have a sneaking suspicion that Mr Holehouse knows the answer, but the temptation to imagine a conspiracy from this adventurous activity programme was too great an opportunity to miss. Nice try Mr Holehouse. but let’s face it, even the UK allows us to dress kids up and play at war, what would the Iraqis or Afghanis have to say about that?

benjaminfinger
04 September 2007 at 15:40

p.s. Holehouse - with regard to your feedback comment:

"Propaganda, education, call it what you will."

I suggest a basic course on "The Politics of the National Socialist German Workers Party 1920-'45" and perhaps of "Communist Party of the Soviet Union 1922-'53" for a thorough understanding of the term "propaganda" and then I suggest you go to Israel, to Marva, sit in one of their classes on the History of Israel or the Ethics of the Defence Forces and then reconsider whether 'propaganda' can indeed be made a synonym for 'education' in the Marva classes.

Once again a display of poor education, basic journalistic skills and subjectivity.

You hold a position of great responsibility Matthew, please consider the effects of laxity in your prose.

youthworker
04 September 2007 at 15:40

Mr Holehouse - I admire the comments in your blog, but this is not what you implied in the article, that is a wasted journalistic opportunity.

Mr Holmes - lets not even try, shall we say ‘historical equivalency’, Marva and the Irgun, now there is a great comparison! This is laughable.

Mr Paine wrote

- How would you feel, Daniel, if British Iranian teenagers were going to similar camps in Iran? -

They do! Perhaps not Iran, but in other countries, and it is very problematic (we have seen the results)! I think the arguments on this blog suggest that this programme cannot be compared them.

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 15:57

benjaminfinger you're a prat. Seems to me you're the one with the poor education. One definition of propaganda is 'particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement'. Are you seriously suggesting on the one hand that these schemes aren't being seized by as an opportunity for the IDF to spread the word and on the other you write: 'It is set-up to educate diaspora Jews about the true function and practises of the people who defend Israel. This knowledge is then used to combat the anti-Israel propaganda in diaspora societies; specifically on University campuses and in the press?' That's propaganda! And you're a bigoted prat!

lee52
04 September 2007 at 16:04

"And these kids, in olive fatigues with thick glossy hair and ubiquitous aviator sunglasses, look sharp. "Fifty per cent of going on Israel tour is about getting laid" one participant tells me."

and??? This article is pure anti-Jewish propaganda, The author clearly went out to try and find a story, found nothing, and so decided to spurt utter garbage with little point or direction. And all this in a supposed left-wing magazine...

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 16:17

I know plenty of British jews who are utterly revolted by post-Rabin Israel. Are they anti-Jewish too?

lee52
04 September 2007 at 16:20

no...whats you're point?

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 16:28

Well why don't you try to work it out?

Pierre
04 September 2007 at 16:39

My family and the majority of our friends have agreed that until the occupation of Palestine is resolved to the satisfaction of both parties we will not knowingly purchase any goods made in occupied Palestine.

Brad Brzezinski
04 September 2007 at 16:46

Historically, Diaspora Jews understandably felt it necessary for survival, to support Israel in various ways, like attending Marva.

I cite the media-EU-UN coalition that treated so differently Israel’s attack on Jenin in 2002 and the rather similar current Lebanese attack on Nahr el-Bared. Israel was pilloried virulently and accused of a massacre. Lebanon killed at least 5 times the number and totally destroyed the camp but attention has been muted and often laudatory. This kind of biased treatment is what causes Jews to continue to feel threatened, allows Matthew Holehouse to get away with articles that make specious equivalences and it all perpetuates the mistaken belief that Israel is an evil entity.

Tim Holmes: If you'd like to understand the ROOT CAUSES of Jewish terror (such as it was) against Britain, you should read this 1948 article from Nation Magazine. Despite the political climate, the British military was attempting to stifle the nascent Jewish state, stopping Jews from getting arms and allowing Nazi POWs to join the Arab side as military commanders.

http://emperor.vwh.net/history/br.htm

lee52
04 September 2007 at 16:55

Well, chum, I understand you clearly, but my point was that yours is a non-point.

I have not accused anyone who has distaste for Israel or its actions of being 'anti-Jewish', but the distrubing theme of this article is that it, infact, has very little to do with Israel or its policies. The fundamental point of this article is the 'disturbing discovery' that scores of British, Jewish, teenagers are spending their summers on this cadet like program, not dissimilar, it seems, from our very own CCF (which I had the misfortune to be involved in at school). And if we look at some of the rare sourced content in this article, such as; "When discussing the Middle East they really do try to present both sides of the story and the overriding message is of striving for peace", we find that there is little substance to the claim that this program is in any way negative. And if we are to believe the content of above posts by those who are more knowledgable of such programs than ourselves, we discover that Matthew, unfortunately, either didnt do detailed enough reserach, or more sinisterly, chose to omit details which would soften the negative image he builds up. Whats clear, however, is that if he has an outriding aim, it is to villify young Jews who take part in this program (blatant from nuances like the one above), which, has, as I said, very little infact to do with Israel.

Yonatan
04 September 2007 at 17:01

As both a former participant and organizer of Israel Experience programmes for British Jews, I find the suggestion that any equivalence can be drawn between young British Jews participating in Israeli army programmes and young British Muslims participating in terrorist camps in Pakistan mischievous, ill-informed and utterly preposterous.

No one is training British Jews how to murder innocent people. No one is training British Jews how to make suicide bombs, or how to fly aeroplanes into buildings, or how and why to cultivate an intense ideological hatred for anyone different to themselves. Instead, the programmes in Israel are designed to teach about contemporary Israeli society and Jewish identity, and, in part, to examine why it has become so incumbent upon the State of Israel to invest so heavily in its own defence. Sadly, your poorly-researched, simplistic and profoundly distasteful article only serves to fuel this sense.

Pierre
04 September 2007 at 17:32

Perhaps the British were ahead of their time, The next we will be hearing about is the need for a homeland for the Rastafarian's or other religious cults.

dayenu
04 September 2007 at 17:41

Interesting thought ...Arrest Jewish kids at heathrow on their arrival after Israel camp? What for, being drunk in charge of a felafel?

Have you ever considered a career in comedy Mr Holehouse? Certainly your journalism isn't up to much.

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 18:08

Actually you don't understand because - like so many of the people involved in this so-called debate - you only listen to your own rather hackneyed viewpoint which you're delusional enough to consider to be fact and not opinion. Kindly don't call me chum.

Dan L
04 September 2007 at 18:11

Tim Holmes:

You're bringing up 1946 Irgun politics in modern day comparison with Palestinian tactics?!!

Perhaps we should also continue bombing Germany, just in case they want to refresh old grudges...

rudz
04 September 2007 at 18:20

Robert Powell your tone is very hostile, angry and infact quite intimidating, you're struggling to debate and discuss without insulting people.

I keep reading your comments waiting to see a constructive viewpoint, but it keeps reading just an angry rant and nothing factual or informative.

rsars
04 September 2007 at 22:39

i can do nothing but laugh at the twat for writing it for being so misguided and having the cutzbah to compare the 2. it is a simulation designed to make you desire to make alliyah and join the idf. marva in itself is in no way basic training, true we learn to fire guns and we do drills, but lets be honest you can teach yourself and make up your own drills. the commanders are in no way able to teach people how to fight, they themselves run "camp" for lack of a better word and are no older or even younger than the participants. although i have great respect for the program and the organisers and leaders you can substitite the word mefaketed for madricha or mefaked m'p' for rosh.

Jeremy
04 September 2007 at 23:11

What is Holehouse’s problem? Military training, if a couple of weeks could amount to that description, is not the moral equivalent of training to be a terrorist. Being a cadet is not being a soldier. Even firing a few automatic rounds at a paper target is not equivalent to training for suicide attacks on civilians.

The article reports debate and review of the experiences of these youngsters, the purpose of their experience and how it will be seen by others. I look forward to reports of similar freedom of expression from the “equivalent” martyr brigades over whether their murderous rants should be made more “PC”.

On the whole, enough material got into the article to raise serious points about the differences rather than the similarities between British Muslims and British Jews. If young British Muslims had similar experiences to the Jewish youngsters where they were more able to question what they were doing, why and against whom, we would all feel much more comfortable about it.

As for Mr Holehouse, he just does not seem to like cadets, public schools or Jews. I can’t say that I enjoyed my time as a CCF cadet ( on free school meals) myself and no sane person likes militarism but we all need security and someone has to provide it. By way of example closer to home, the security arrangements for every gathering of Jews in the Northern Hemisphere has to be well planned and supplied with trained volunteers who know that if there is a serious incident, their job is to die noisily enough for others to escape. If police were used instead of volunteers, the force would need to double in numbers.

Some cadets, whether CCF or Jewish may go on to become soldiers. If they didn’t, there would be no Israel and if they hadn’t in the past, Mr Holehouse would be writing propaganda for the London office of Der Sturmer.

Pierre
04 September 2007 at 23:14

Odd that there seems to be a similarity. reminiscent of Nazi Youth Camps.

Brad Brzezinski
04 September 2007 at 23:40

Pierre: "Odd that there seems to be a similarity. reminiscent of Nazi Youth Camps."

I’m pleased you noticed:

Palestinian Youth Training

http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/palikids/palikids.html

Muslim Youth Jihad Camp Pennsylvania, With Al-Qaeda Linked Cleric

http://www.pipelinenews.org/index.cfm?page=jihadcamp7606%2Eh...

Hezbollah’s Shi’ite youth movement,

http://tinyurl.com/yqsx6h

Bosnia

http://tinyurl.com/ynrkcr

Iranian President calls upon Iranian youth to join the Iranian Organization of Martyrs

http://tinyurl.com/yqcgmy

chameleon
05 September 2007 at 00:06

Matthew Holehouse no matter what you "meant" in your article it is bound to be received by some as part of the Israel-bashing agenda prevalent in the British press, but it will also appeal to those who are looking for excuses to question the "loyalty" of these Jews to their own country, England.. This seems to be the underlying motive of the article and as such it is baseless and reprehensible. I make no accusations of anti-Semitism, but this article is riddled with the disingenuous equivalence of the motives of these children with the less than benign ones of British Muslim youngsters anxious to prove themselves through extremist Jihadism against the West, and who despise what this country stands for.

It would seem that to you, Holehouse, 350 years of undeniable beneficial loyal service by the Jewish community to this country is worth nothing.

Hannah Kuchler
05 September 2007 at 00:17

If we were sending kids just out of school to pretend to be soldiers in Iraq as some kind of cultural experience, what would that say about our culture? Israel is doomed if it defines itself by conflict. Yes, they do participate in other activities, which are much more normal for a gap year, which are often about helping those less fortunate than oneself. But while on Marva the kids are playing at toy soldiers in a foreign land that they think belongs to them with little thought to those without the right to return to their homeland, or those whose lives are made unbearable by occupation.

This is an interesting, thought provoking article which should provoke argument, but there is no need to start simply insulting its author.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 01:44

He fails to mention that a gap year in Israel isn't travelling. You're a resident for 10-12 months and one therefore attempts to immerse themselves into Israeli culture and society as a 18/19 year old. All 18/19 year olds serve in the IDF, there is therefore no better way to do this than volunteer or have a little taste of the army.

ak47
05 September 2007 at 02:10

When I was 14 I was placed on the bus with the rest of my class and taken to the military shooting range at Rzischev near Kiev, Ukraine (Former Soviet Union). We were given ak47s and live ammo and told to shoot. Our training consisted of anti-American and anti-Western hate infected propaganda, marching, singing communist songs and a great deal of Marksism-Leninism.

I was looking for some snooping British jornalist to describe our humiliation but couldn't find one.

I think you Brits should arrest those Jewish kids returning from Israel, throw them on cargo ships with little food (like you did during WWII with their ansestors bearing German names) and send them to Ausralia.

This may free some additional space for the poor Gazans and Pakistanis.

TDR
05 September 2007 at 02:55

Enough people have pointed out how ridiculous this article is, so I won't even get started with that. What I really wonder about is the MOTIVE of someone who writes/publishes this kind of garbage. It is very disturbing to me even as someone who is not Jewish, but I suppose it's emblematic of the anti-semitism once again taking root in Europe ( especially Britain ).

jtuf
05 September 2007 at 03:04

"If these were British Muslim 19 year-olds firing machine guns and running assault courses in Pakistan or Yemen, would we not have them all arrested at the airport?"

I didn't realize the Pakistani and Yemenite governments had foreign legions. Do they work like the French Foreign Legion?

Pierre
05 September 2007 at 03:14

Israel,

A racist people living on stolen land....................

chaos
05 September 2007 at 03:44

The article is written in such a way to create the impression of equivalence.

The description of the IDF's self-righteous outrage at the Palestinian terror camps followed by the transition at the start of the second paragraph, what does it do?

"What went unreported was that..."

It clearly creates a connection - Islamic Jihad is running Genocide for Dummies camps, but no one is mentioning these Israeli camps!

It would only be relevant to mention them at the same time if they were similar for some reason.

One can only imagine Mr. Holehouse sitting around having a good laugh knowing that some people would read his description of the Marva program karaoke! Dance-offs! - and still think that there is an equivalence.

Camouflage-induced machismo! Funny, the quote actually says "camaraderie," which is something quite different from putting on a display of testosterone. There's Mr. Holehouse laughing again at the manhood of anyone who attended these camps - why not just call them cowards flat-out? It would save space and not offend the English language. Camouflage-induced machismo, that's genius.

A description of how even-handed the program tries to be follows - it doesn't quite connect well with the clear attempt earlier to create an equivalence, doesn't it? That's why Mr. Holehouse has to try to salvage the article by then immediately mentioning weapons training and then saying "that's what it's all about," in direct contradiction to the facts he just reported - the removal of house-to-house fighting training and simulation of the Battle of Ammunition Hill. It's amazing how you managed to contradict yourself in the space of two paragraphs, Mr. Holehouse.

Goleman writes "somewhat naively" of being pleased that old people in Israel thought he was a conscript and complimented him for (in their belief) defending their homeland. So, Mr. Holehouse, do you find the idea of being proud of the soldiers of your nation itself "somewhat naive," or do you believe that it's just "somewhat naive" for Jews?

Yes, a program whose point is apparently at least 50% "getting laid," that bends over backwards to teach history even-handedly, that has removed various bits of combat training and simulated operations, is defining Israel solely by militarism. Honestly, Mr. Holehouse, did an editor see this AT ALL before you posted it? You can't go more than three sentences without writing an assertion that the facts YOU REPORT IN THE SAME PIECE contradict.

Again, is it "depressing" in general to get a soldierly experience, even a summer-campish one, and a connection to your people's homeland, or is it just depressing for Jews? I know which way I suspect.

Actually, there's a lot of gain to be made in discussing moral equivalence. Israel does not engage in indiscriminate attacks against civilians. To say otherwise is to knowingly, deliberately lie. The statistics don't lie: the vast majority of Palestinians killed by the IDF are military-aged males. Israel routinely uses only the smallest fraction of the destructive power at her command when attacking Palestinian terrorists. The vast majority of Israelis killed by Palestinians are civilians, not soldiers. The Palestinians routinely invent new ways to put greater quantities of more deadly shrapnel into their rockets and bomb belts that they then fire indiscriminately at civilian areas or blow up in civilian areas.

"If these were British Muslim 19 year-olds firing machine guns and running assault courses in Pakistan or Yemen, would we not have them all arrested at the airport?"

Well gee, I guess since in Yemen and Pakistan those camps train people to carry out missions of mass murder, yes.

Maybe Mr. Holehouse just thinks that going to summer camp to get sex is a crime. Or maybe he's an anti-semite. Or maybe he's both. The two latter are the way I'm leaning. The article is just shit. Period. The New Statesman should be ashamed of this garbage.

chaos
05 September 2007 at 03:48

Last paragraph should have read "...Or maybe he's an anti-semite. Or maybe he's an idiot. Or maybe both..." everyone makes mistakes! =D

Odin88
05 September 2007 at 04:38

The New Statesman is an anti-Semitic rag. Remember the "Kosher Conspiracy" cover a couple years back?

Disgusting neo-Nazis.

khara
05 September 2007 at 05:12

Mr. Holehouse, you answer your own question:

what is he difference then between your SAS young fightes and the Hamas "patriots" that are "saving" their so-called country by blowing themselves up?

you are an arse of a person and I will not adresse you as Sir

Doron
05 September 2007 at 06:47

Dear New Statesman,

As an Jewish individual, I read this article and am appalled by its obvious twisted overtones. To compare these camps with terrorist camps is like comparing the boy scouts with Hitler youth. The obvious end goal is to demonize Israel, demonize Jewish people in Israel, demonize British Jews who participate in this program, and demonize Jews. This article actually implies arresting these children 'at the airport'. I call on you to remove and retract this article due to its offensive nature. Take a stand: It is time that the rampant anti-semitic virus that seems to be plaguing the United Kingdom is addressed.

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 07:36

Do people in Britain consider 18 year olds "children" or even members of Youth Organizations who are 16 and 17 years of age?

If so, perhaps Britons should re-consider their view of what constitutes being a child, a youth and a young adult.

And, yound adults coming to serve in the defence of their people's nation-state - the Jewish state of Israel - may really be compared to those sent to explode themselves in the midst of coffee shops, city buses and shopping centers, both in terms of values and the nature of their deeds?

How low have some British reporters and commentators brought themselves, all with the full intention of demonize everything Israel and all in the process of de-legitimize its very being??!!

Vardit
05 September 2007 at 08:36

The author's comparison is ludicrous. British Jews are not trained to kill people for example simply because they are Muslims. and.. if these young folks one day decide to stay in Israel and belong to the army, they will DEFEND Israel, not shoot innocent Muslim civilians because they feel like it. They will, however one day, should they decide to become Israelis know how to use a gun and go after the terrorists that DO shoot civilians simply because they, the terrorists hate.

Eric
05 September 2007 at 08:37

This article is not based on fact. My guess is that it is the result of poor research (and without an attempt at depth).

Even more important, the article is an example of what too many people today believe is the right thing to do because to say otherwise would be perceived as unfair. And that is to make every attempt at equating all peoples of the world to hold the same values of life, freedom, independence, and education. These values are not held in the same way, and in this specific case to the very core of the 'value' of a life.

It's because of published articles like this that seek to 'equate', that the problems we are all seeing and experiencing today in the world will only escalate over the next years.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 09:56

The trouble is that whenever anyone criticises Israel - the high civilian death toll it causes among its Arab neighbours or its human rights record - they are instantly branded anti-Semitic. So we can't have proper debate about it. Plus as soon as any article remotely critical of Israel is published there is a concerted effort to undermine the author, the publisher and that is profoundly undemocratic - to stamp on opposition. If you disagree with someone's point of view have confidence enough in your own to let them have enough rope to hang themselves. The way people have reacted to Holehouse's article suggests many of the angry commentors thing he has a point!

Having said that it is wrong to tar all Israeli citizens with the same brush as often happens too with America because of its extremist government under Bush!

Henricanan
05 September 2007 at 09:59

Is it possible to have such an illiterate journalist in your ranks?

To compare young Jews who are educated to enjoy the life to young Muslims who are educated to cherish the death and to give it the others, no matter they are is simply foolish, stupid.

Is there any editor here ?

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 10:02

QED.

http://www.honestreporting.co.uk/articles/critiques/new/New_...

Joe Feld
05 September 2007 at 10:23

Many top British schools have a Combined cadet Corps and many top American universiies have an ROTC or officer training corps. The summer schemes in israel are akin to these type of programmes, and in no way comparable to camps training suicide bombers to be sent back to blow up non-Muslims. It's hard to imagine how the writer could make such a comparison.

ndt
05 September 2007 at 10:29

This article is completely laughable.

To compare a camp in Israel that teaches the importance to love and defend your country, against a palestinian camp that teaches kids to attack and kill as many innocent civillians as possible...I just honestly dont see the connection.

And judging by the comments it seems you may have stretched this one a bit too far.

Antiochean
05 September 2007 at 10:35

I am utterly appalled by the anti-Semitism and lack of understanding that in equal measure make this article what it is.

Rick Gil
05 September 2007 at 10:39

If this article were not so scandalous it would be laughable. To compare a summer camp the purpose of which is to show teen-agers a bit of Israeli life is blatently biased and ignorant. Perhaps the author should compare CCF at British Public Schools, in which we were obliged to take part as teen-agers, with Arab hate-camps as well. Both are military in nature and both make use of weapons training.

The picture in the you-tube site which, for me, epitomises the whole proramme is of a girl in her fatigues just touching the Westrn Wall of the Temple mount in Jerusalem, the eternal, universal symbol of peace.

As a former FZY member now living in Israel, I am proud of that organisation which brings so many young people to learn about Israel and their Jewish heritage and if that makes FZY "hard line" that is an excellent recomendation for the group..

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 10:50

I wonder, is this article a good representative of the well respected New Statesman?

Perhaps it is time to have a bit less respect for this periodical for "thinking people"?

Rick Gil
05 September 2007 at 10:52

Colonel Blimp wrote: "I knew an Israeli girl once. My what beauties!"

Does this smutty, sexist remark belong in a serious debate? Or maybe it reflects the shabbyness of the article under discussion!

benjaminfinger
05 September 2007 at 11:21

Robert Powell - sinking to throwing insults as you have done merely leads me, and everyone else to conclude that you are 11years old and therefore you undermine any point you are trying to make.

It is ashame that in a mature dialogue someone always has to debase in order to counter an intellectual point. By resorting to insults you have only proven that you have no legitimate argument to refute my own.

Nil point, stay in school.

Robert Powell
05 September 2007 at 11:45

I blew your stupid hysterical point out of the water. Mature dialogue benjaminfinger? Not when you're involved!

scorpionking
05 September 2007 at 11:58

Try, once, to get one thing right, O perfidious Albion.

If Americans of British heritage came "home" and enlisted in the Royal Marine Auxilliary, training (including in how to fire accurately from the prone position) to guard ammo dumps and walk sentry posts at bases, freeing a few dozen real troops for more substantive tasks, you'd have a more precise analogy.

And no, Cornwallis, you wouldn't arrest them at the aitport.

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 12:01

"Does this smutty, sexist remark belong in a serious debate? Or maybe it reflects the shabbyness of the article under discussion!"

What's rattled your cage Mr. Gil? When he rattles the gilded cage, perhaps Mr. Gil will think of the captive child, the little Palestinian girl, Iman al-Hams, caught and killed by an IDF soldier in October 2004.

http://ifamericansonlyknew.org/cur_sit/child-killed.html

This is a very serious debate. Defend her capitivity and the defence of Israel ... if you will Mr. Gil ... and I feel sure you will.

PS. Iman al-Hams was not alone in her captivity in an Israeli cage and her cruel murder by the forces who defend Israel. Hundreds of other Palestinian children have been slaughtered by the Israeli army - 118 were killed in 2004 alone, 952 since September 2000. Please tell me why, Mr. Gil?

rudz
05 September 2007 at 12:22

The Newstatesman should release a statement soon regarding this article.

Personally I call on the editor to resign.

chaos
05 September 2007 at 12:27

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_al-Hams

Sounds like a tragedy that happens in war as a result of poor individual leadership of a unit, not institutional malice.

952 dead children? Why is that figure so much higher than any one given out by agencies with some credibility? Why does that number drop precipitously from around 600 (not 952) when you remove military-aged (14-18) males?

If Americans only knew... Americans do know. That's why they support Israel. Pushing the Jews into the sea's just going to have to wait another few decades. It must be infuriating.

amba
05 September 2007 at 12:27

"The trouble is that whenever anyone criticises Israel - the high civilian death toll it causes among its Arab neighbours or its human rights record - they are instantly branded anti-Semitic." - Tom Paine.

This is nonsense. When somebody highlights Israel's human rights record, and fails to mention the human rights record of the other side of the conflict, and so selectively uses information to demonise Israel, then some people start using the word antisemitic. When someone makes a valid point about Israel's human rights record, they rarely claim that Israel is a military machine with the sole purpose of killing Arabs. They make accurate comments backed up by evidence from a reliable source.

What people like Cybertiger here do, is to selectively abuse information from questionable sources to portray Israel as intentionally targeting civilians. This is their only hope in convincing people that the IDF are morally equivalent to terrorists, and is what lies at the absolute heart of this conflict. Unfortunately for people like him, it will always be the case that the Israeli army tries its utmost to limit civilian casualties, and Hamas etc. try their utmost to cause civilian casualties.

And one last thing Cybertiger, the difference between Israel and terrorists is that when you name a child killed by the army, we are deeply saddened and upset that someone so young would be caught up in this conflict. When we name a child killed by a terrorist, other terrorists couldn't be happier with their success. They achieved their stated aim, we most definitely did not. We made a huge and terrible mistake. This is the difference between us.

IrritatedofTonbridge
05 September 2007 at 12:32

Well if the civilian deaths aren't deliberate (say 10 Arabs for one Israeli) then there is an suspicious level of collateral damage!

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 12:54

"The trouble is that whenever anyone criticizes Israel - the high civilian death toll it causes among its Arab neighbors or its human rights record - they are instantly branded anti-Semitic." - Tom Paine.

Israel's size is that of Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey, populated by nearly seven million people, 20% of whom are Arabs, citizens of the state of Israel. When some choose to be obsessed with being critical of every aspect of this liberal democracy and use language and style that demonizes and de-legitimizes Israel the question is asked: Why?

Israel is probably the most important national institution of the Jewish people, during the 20th and 21st centuries, and since being bluntly anti-Semitic is still not political correct only three generations after the Jewish holocaust, attacking the closest thing to this people and its sense of peoplehood is a substitute, hence attacking the Jewish state of Israel becomes a convenient substitute.

These attacks have nothing to do with the defence of human rights, demonstrated by the attacks or lack thereof of the Arab country of Lebanon when its army puts down the Islamists within its midst using brute force; or the degree to which the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Muslims are being slaughtered by their own Arab brothers, be it in Darfur, Algeria, Syria or Iraq; or the enslavement of millions of Arabs by Arabs in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and the rest of the Gulf states; or even the attitude of Europe towards the other in its own back yard, the Roma of Europe, both in eastern Europe and in its west.

The situation here, in Israel, is unique in that this is the only place where Jews have their own state hence the constant attacks at it. And when a people, the Jewish people, a race really is singled out to be constantly attacked it is a form of racism, anti-Jewish racism in this case.

This article is yet another link in a long chain of such expressions, produced primarily by the left in Britain, the same circles that can be described as neo-Socialists, those attempting to harmonize between supposed Socialism, Islamism and/or anti-Jewish racism.

Robert Powell
05 September 2007 at 12:56

Yes I'm sure he gives a crap Rudz.

zelig
05 September 2007 at 12:59

Mr Holehouse draws our attention to an important issue, namely that young British Jews are offered the chance to train with the Israeli army. This is an army engaged in an illegal occupation, that protects Jewish settlers at the expense of the indigenous inhabitants, and disregards the Geneva conventions, brought in to protect vulnerable civilians. To put matters in context, in the past 3 years, this army of occupation has killed 1080 Palestinians, while 41 Israelis have been killed in the conflict, a 26 to 1 kill ratio. During the past three years the Israeli army have killed 237 Palestinian minors, 7 Israeli children have been killed. No Israeli soldier has ever been held to account for killing a child. Clearly what we are looking at is asymmetrical warfare of the most brutal kind. This army of occupation has also killed three unarmed British people, Tom Hurndall, James Miller and Ian Hook.

But the young British Jews who go there are encouraged to 'be ambassadors' for the 'misunderstood' IDF. If the quality of their debate on this blog is anything to go by, the Israeli army mission has comprehensively failed.

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 13:07

chaos, incredibly and chaotically stated,

"952 dead children? Why is that figure so much higher than any one given out by agencies with some credibility?

Please link to these credible sources on the fall of the 600 ... and the precipitous drop of 14-18 military aged children.

PS. I'm always intrigued how it is not possible to buy an alcoholic drink in the Fatherland (the US) until the age of 21 but it is possible to suffer the death penalty for youthful mistakes at a younger age. Of course, the 51st state of the blessed union of malevolent states does not exact a death penalty - but simply exacts a run of extra-judicial executions on militant male 14-18 year-olds. The rest, of course, are childish mistakes, mere unfortunate collateral in the bid to defend the Jewish homeland and prevent the Zionists from being pushed into the Dead Sea.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 13:10

Rubbish Nadav. It is perfectly legitimate to criticise Israel's foreign policy - in the same way it is perfectly legitimate to criticise Britain's and America's at the moment. The liberal ideal of Israel that you choose to portray is long gone if it ever existed. For the record I support the existence of Israel - what I don't support is its government/military's total disdain for human rights in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere. I totally condemn suicide bombings where civilians are targeted. Equally I totally condemn the murder of civilians by the IDF. If you talk to people in the Jewish community in London, for example, you will find plenty of voices opposing that barbarity!

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 13:28

"For the record I support the existence of Israel ... "

I too, strongly supported the existence of the State of Israel. I now realise that the United Nations made a terrible mistake in 1947. With the deaths of so many children like the 13 year old Palestinian schoolgirl Iman al-Hams, I believe that that right to exist is forfeit. It is now high time for the United Nations to think again about a final solution to the problem of Palestine.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 13:39

Actually Tom, Nadav was highlighting the disproportionate amount of criticism Israel receives.

You criticise the government's disdain for human rights in Gaza. Are you talking about Hamas or the Israeli government. You see if you were to criticise Israel more than Hamas in regards to human rights in Gaza, then this could well be seen as a disproportionate criticism towards Israel.

Israel withdrew from Gaza in August 2005, so that the Palestinians could create an autonomous entity as a 1st step to peace. Gaza became a hotbed of terrorism and Hamas are now in power. Did you know on Monday Hamas fired 4 rockets into a Sderot Kindergarten. Since then Israel has responded by trying to hunt down these terrorists. These terrorists then hide amongst the civilian population and Israel are therefore faced with a catch 22 situation, where ultimately innocent civilians will regrettably be caught up in gorilla warfare. This happenened in Afghanistand and Kosovo when the British went to war- but yet no one says anything, but they criticise Israel. One wonders why it is Israel that receives this obsessive disproportionate criticism.

Human Rights Watch recently criticised Hezbollah for its use of human shields during the Lebanon War.

Ofcourse Israel isn't perfect, it makes mistakes and its governments have often been incompotent, however people are so obsessed by Israel, the Jewish state, they fail to notice it is no worse than many other states.

4 million people are dying of starvation in Zimbabwe along with the 3 million which have already fled the country and all people can do is sit and criticise Israel!

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 13:54

Tom Paine, For your information Israel is a liberal democracy in every way possible and this is not "rubbish" as you call it. I suspect you really don't know this country first hand to refer to it in such a way. And as liberal democracy Israel does have challenges to overcome, but how much time does the media spends on Israel by comparison to Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey? How much printed space do newspapers use on Israel by comparison to these three states of very similar size both in terms of physical geography and demography? It is this disproportionate approach to Israel's perceived short comings and the language used, including the language you use, e.g. "I totally condemn the murder of civilians by the IDF" (show me a single case in which the Israel Defence Forces was involved in murder! And, incidentally, check the word "murder" in your dictionary please) that suggests to me that something else is at plays. I choose to describe this something else anti-Jewish racism. I am sorry if I offend you by using your approach as such. But I would like to ask you, how many posts have you written to any site regarding the on-going slavery of millions in the Arab world? How many posts have you composed regarding the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of human beings in Algeria? Or, how many letters to the editor have you sent regarding the expulsion of millions and the murder of hundreds of thousands of Africans by the Arabs of the Sudan?

I look forward to read your answers to these questions before you describe my words as "rubbish"!

chaimgreen
05 September 2007 at 14:02

ohh mathew bubi, isn't all this a little silly? what next? yeshiva students inciting racial hatred? kibbutznikim depleting uranium? Seems a little desperate don't you think? But Mathew you are a good writer you have a great style and tone. I think we all agree that your are more suited to fiction though.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 14:04

I wrote: "What I don't support is its government/military's total disdain for human rights in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere." I'm aware of the timing - and as I made clear I oppose inhumane actions by all sides. Britain is frequently singled out for criticism but what perhaps sharpens the criticism of Israel is its continued flouting of international law.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 14:17

It's not a very good comparison Nadav, is it? Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey! That might just account for the difference in coverage...

Murder in English law requires the Actus Reus and the Mens Rea. The act and the intention - in this case intention means intending serious injury. Oh and I didn't have to look that up. Plenty of cases within this definition - even if the system deliberately fails to bring people to justice. Oh and the something you refer to you call racism - sometime you may be right - but equally it's an easy claim for you to make whenever you are on your backfoot morally speaking. Have I first hand experience of Israel. Well I'm tempted to say you don't have to fall off a cliff to know it hurts but actually the answer is yes. Been there many times - though not in the past eight years. I'm anti-apartheid you see.

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 14:18

Tom Paine, I asked you to back up your words. Can you? I also asked you to demonstrate to us here the number of times you actually expressed yourself in writing, as you do it about Israel, regarding a phenomenon called slavery that has been on-going for many decades against international law. I asked you to share with us your writing about your objection to mass murders, the violation of the very first of human rights, the right to live. You have done nothing of the above, but you keep writing about a conflict that began when, against UN resolution, the entire Arab world set out to annihilate the tiny Jewish state of Israel and yes, throw the Jews into the sea, and what we presently see is a continuation of this objection to UN resolutions by the Arab world expressed through the attempted mass murder of Jews on a daily basis. If your criticism is not anti-Jewish racism, what is racism, Sir?

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 14:29

Tom Paine, show me a single case, once again, in which the Israel Defence Forces set out to kill and deliberately end the life of innocent people, please show me a single such case, and if you can not, please, don't call our young men and women guarding our very lives murderers!

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 14:40

Rachel Corey, Tom Hurndall, Iman al-Hams. And as for your irrelevant call for my 'writings' about slavery. It just shows how weak your case, how paranoid your mind. Deal with facts Nadav relevant in this case. Accept the failings of your country and you might just begin to rebuild the bridges Yigal Amir burnt.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 14:57

The examples you have given do not equate to the IDF nor the Israeli government as an institution directly ordering its troops to kill innocent civilians.

In those three cases it was actually an individual IDF solider being carried away in bloodless violence and in all cases there has been a vigorous IDF investigation into those deaths. The killing of Tom Hurndall was carried out by an Arab Bedouin who enjoys full equal rights in Israel, which contradicts your apartheid claim.

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 15:00

Tom Paine, murder to the best of my knowledge is characterized by the deliberation or premeditation of killing of innocent people. None of the names you mentioned can be characterized as murders, deaths, yes, but not murders! So, once again, stop using this term when it comes to the women and men protecting the lives of civilians who are being targeted daily to be mass murdered!

As for me asking you to illustrate to us or simply tell us how much effort you have spent on the violation of primary human rights – mass murder, genocide really, on-going slavery, etc. – in the very same region of the Middle East and North Africa in which Israel is located is not an illustration of the weakness of my argument; instead it is actually an illustration that you are willing to be critical of tiny, but Jewish, Israel and to spend writing about it, but you spend no time on major violations of human rights in our region, and that is only due to the fact that Israel is a Jewish state. Because if it were not Jewish, you would care less about the Palestinian Arabs, as much as you have cared over the past hundred years about the right of the Kurdish people to national self-determination – ZERO!

And when you or anyone else singles out a people in such a way, especially a small people as the Jewish people is, especially within the larger context of the whole Arab region, one can only be described as singling out a race, and that is racism, anti-Jewish racism in this case!

P.S. Mr. Paine, I must say, however, you are in good company. The Guardian, the London Review of Books and the New Statesman are all behind you in singling out the Jewish people and its nation-state, the Jewish state of Israel, for disproportionate criticism, for anti-Jewish racism as part of the wave of neo-Socialism swiping the "enlightened" and "progressive" circles in the UK.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 15:01

Please come up with an example as Nadav Katz as asked you which shows 'the Israel Defence Force set out to kill and deliberately end the life of innocent people.'

You explained in legal terms murder. Those examples you have given do not make the IDF culpable of murder.

tom k
05 September 2007 at 15:01

i cant believe i spent half an hour approximately of my time reading this rubbish.

What this journalist fails to understand, is that the Jews, came to England and blended in with society... Yes, there is a large number of Jews who are extremely religious and dont entirely conform to all of this country's laws, but they do wake up every morning and go to work. They do pay all their taxes every year. They do vote when it comes around to election time.

This is because they have been accepted into this country and therefore accept its rules. They dont go marching on the street everytime there is something they disagree about or go around shouting.. 'We will kill anyone who doesnt think what we think'. They have blended into society. The Israeli MILITARY (note i say military and not armed civilians) does not pick random targets and just bomb the place. They strategically pin-point each target accepting that there might be a few civilian casualties, but it is necessary to attack these places at certain times to ensure that the terrorists hiding in these place are stopped. And they are not just stopping them from attacking Israel, but from any other democratic country in the world. Israel has been put in a position where they have no choice but to defend themselves, not attack.

The kids on these 'training camps' are not being taught to kill, but rather to defend. And they will only defend when they are forced to. Only when they are being attacked.

if you want to join Marva, you dont have to go about it in secret or be invited. But you do have to do this with the 'training camps' in these other middle eastern countries. This is because they know what they are doing is wrong. They know it is illegal. They know, that what they are doing is training people to minimize the the rest of the world, the people who dont have the same beliefs as them.

The point I am trying to make, is that it is very easy to compare things and find similarities. But unless you actually know about both sides of the fence, you cannot give a fair argument.

Of course some of you are probably going to fight back against what i have just written. And of course, i would love it if you did. It would mean i learn more. But please do so with consideration. Don't just write the first thing that comes into your head. Don't write with frustration as to what I have written.

Think carefully and then reply.

SHANA TOVA to you all

xxx

rudz
05 September 2007 at 15:06

Tom Paine you say your anti-apartheid so you haven't been to Israel in the last 8 years. Only in the last 8 years have areas of the West Bank and Gaza gained their own autonomy and have been able to vote in elections.

I think you have your history a bit muddled up.

Eric Carter
05 September 2007 at 15:07

LOL. What a retarded article.

tom k
05 September 2007 at 15:18

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1282791,00.html

This is the latest news on the thwarted bomb attacks.

Suprise Suprise... they were trained in Pakistan

And Suprise Suprise, they converted to Islam.

I am not a racist, i am not a prejudice person. But i have been known to be a statistical person.

Et Voila...more statistics for you guys

And a quote from a Queen song - 'Open your eyes and see'!!!

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 15:22

Maybe not according to your corrupt legal authorities Rudz. Heard of the wall Rudz or two-tier citizenship? Oh and Nadav, you know nothing about law! The intention to do serious harm to Tom Hurndall or the others would satisfy the accusation of murder in most jurisdictions. He was taken out. It is not only jews that can be murdered. The racism you speak of is in your own heart against goys! Incidentally you have no way of knowing what I have or haven't done politically about oppression of Kurds or other people around the world. ANOTHER example of your muddle between fact and prejudice. For god's sake put your energy to good use! You talk about neo-socialism. What about neo-fascism? You ever use the word transportation?

olesker
05 September 2007 at 15:30

I'm not sure, from the tone of his comment, if Mr. Holehouse wouldn't be equally "depressed" by British kids participating in an equivalent program sponsored by the British army.

Aside from the casual and insupportable moral equivalence ("which side's indiscriminate attacks on civilians") the article doesn't seem to attempt a moral analysis, so much as an aesthetic one (guns = yuky).

Can't a serious journalist in a serious magazine do better than that?

Rick Gil
05 September 2007 at 15:35

Cybertiger wrote: "When he rattles the gilded cage, perhaps Mr. Gil will think of the captive child, the little Palestinian girl, Iman al-Hams, caught and killed by an IDF soldier in October 2004. "

Ore pehaps Cybertiger will think of my nieghbours Rachel Thaler, Nechemia Amar and other teen-agers who were deliberately murdered by an Islamo-fascist while celebrating a birthday. Or my friends and neighbours T'chiya Blumberg who was murdered and her husband Steve, and daughter Zippy who are now wheelchair bound after their car was shot up on the way home. Or the Israeli children who were shot at close range together with their mother.

No sir, I will not defend the deliberate, wrongful killing of children or adults by anyone. But the difference is that the Israeli officer stands accused of killing Imam al-Hams and is being tried while the Islamo-fascists glorify death and turn their murderers into martyrs.

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 15:53

Tom Paine, the word "goy" is a Hebrew word, a very ancient word, and believe it or not but I am a member of a "goy" a Jewish "goy". You see I am a proud member of a people which is the meaning of the word "goy", a people, and I am a proud member of the Jewish people.

Furthermore, I am a great supporter of the right of all peoples, including the Jewish people, to national self-determination. Does that make me a racist, Sir?

You are right, I have no way of knowing what you have or have not done politically, which is why I keep asking you to share it with us, but for some reason you prefer not to tell us what you have done in the promotion of the right of people to live in the Middle East and North Africa, and you prefer not to share with us what you have done or written about the on-going slavery of million of people in the same region. But we do know that you prefer to accuse Israelis of murder when there is no evidence to it, and you do prefer to write about "the wall", the security fence that has saved the very lives of hundreds if not thousands, although these were only the lives of those subhuman beings, Jews.

But once again, rest assured, your friends at the Guardian, the London Review of Books and the New Statesman appreciate your approach to life in our region – they also differentiate between bloods.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 16:07

Nadav, Don't you think I'd know the meaning of the word goy before using it? That it is used to refer to gentiles? How dare you imply I think Jews are subhuman! How dare you cast such aspersions. You're a disgrace. It is you who differentiates between 'bloods' - what is this strange phrase? You are the racist! And, quite seriously, you must seek help for your paranoid delusions before it's too late!

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 16:23

Tom Paine, "bloods" is a direct translation from the Hebrew, my native tongue, meaning the blood of different people or peoples hence the "s" is added to the word blood. Perhaps even a Hebrew speaking Jew can add to the richness of the English language. As for whether or not you differentiate between the blood of Jews and Arabs, I suspect you do if you have problems with the fact that we, Jews, use certain tools to protect our lives, e.g. the security fence, with which you appear to have a problem, or if you have difficulties with the fact that we send our young men and women to capture active terror gangsters and if necessary kill them for the sake of protecting the lives of our toddlers, our school age girls and boys who are prime targets of those terror gangsters.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 16:33

Tom- what's my corrupt legal authorities?

I don't think you find governments going on trial when a soldier is court martialled, nor do you when a civilian goes to trial? My corrupt legal view is compatible with the legal norms of the rest of the world.

Have I heard of the wall? Yes I have, but only from anti-Israel propoganda. There is a security fence which stretches across the green-line of which something like 5% is a wall. In fact the fence was

altered two days ago after the supreme court of Israel said it infringed on the rights of certain citizens in a small village. Israel contains an independent judiciary which uphelds the rights of the all the citizens of Israel and even those living outside its borders e.g. in the Palestinian territories. Apartheid South Africa did not contain an independent judiciary which upheld the righs of all its citizens regardless of race or colour, therefore debunking any comparison with an apartheid. You'll actually find post-apartheid South Africa actually has a fence (far larger than Israel's) seperating it from its neighbouring country Zimbabwe.

Also this two-tier citizenship you talk of is a myth. I will once again have great pleasure in refuting any facts you come up with.

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 16:56

@Rick Gil

"Ore pehaps Cybertiger will think of my nieghbours Rachel Thaler, Nechemia Amar and other teen-agers who were deliberately murdered by an Islamo-fascist while celebrating a birthday."

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html

You didn't answer my question, Rick! Why were Iman al-Hams and 118 other Palestinian children deliberately murdered in 2004? Was it for vengeance, to avenge the deaths of your teenage friends at the hand of the Islamofascist - or for other reasons too?

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 17:06

"Why were Iman al-Hams and 118 other Palestinian children deliberately murdered in 2004?" This is a perfect example of anti-Jewish racists. Who is claiming that children were DELIBERATELY MURDERED? Who is proving that children were DELIBERATELY MURDERED? This is in short a present day blood libel with which anti-Jewish racists specialize, as did anti-Semites of yesteryear. And when this nonsense is repeated over and over again and spread around as "information" it becomes information, withoutout any basis in reality.

We Jews, collectively, have been exposed to this technique for centuries. And we know when we see the same technique being used again.

speegster
05 September 2007 at 17:58

Hey Cybertiger (and to a lesser extent, Tom Paine) - can I have a very simple yes or no to the following question, just to scratch an itch, I guess:

Have you ever been to Israel, Gaza and/or the West Bank?

RedDaybreak
05 September 2007 at 18:07

Crikey! This is like a feeding frenzy! I hope I don't get gnawed for saying this but isn't the problem with this whole debate that - like most things in life - the situation isn't black and white but rather shades of grey? So the idea that Israel can do no wrong - implicit in some of the increasingly hysterical contributions - is no more correct than the Palestinians have only done right...

I do wish people could live in peace but all the dreadful finger pointing/denials that always accompany this issue rather suggests it's unfeasible.

Admitting your failings can actually make you stronger - and make people give you credit for your successes!

The article is provocative but it's not as poisonous as some of these comments...

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 18:25

@speegster

"Have you ever been to Israel, Gaza and/or the West Bank?"

Yes, and I hope that relieves your itch - but I rather doubt it will.

PS. I think I answered that question in another PS. contribution on the other endless thread on the murderous failings of the Zionist entity. I'll look it out and repost it for your edification.

PPS. love the name speegster. How did you derive it?

PPPS. An Islamofascist lobs a qassam from Gaza at somewhere in Israel and per chance an Israeli teenager is killed. This is deliberate murder - but when an Israeli IDF officer empties his pistol into an injured Palestinian girl on the ground - it isn't murder and it isn't deliberate. And to suggest otherwise is a blood libel against the Jews. Interesting!

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 18:32

For your edification speegster - from the thread "An important marker has been passed" by John Pilger

"Cybertiger

02 September 2007

PS. I did go to Israel in 1980. I slept on the beach by the Sea of Gallilee, I visited a kibbutz near Kiryat Shmona. I swam in the Dead Sea, climbed Masada and snorkelled in the Red Sea near Eilat. I saw Jerusalem, Jaffa, Nazareth and stayed in Haifa. I travelled through Gaza and on overland to Cairo and later flew back to Tel Aviv on Nefertiti airlines. Israel seemed a country that all people could be proud of; no more. There is no respect to be gained by shooting Palestinian children. I will never return to Israel."

How's the itch now?

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 19:51

"Murderous failings of the Zionist entity" is the term our co-poster, Cybertiger, uses in one of its posts. One may say, well, what an innocent expression. But actually, this expression conveys a number of matters:

1. The reference here is of course to the Jewish state of Israel, but since it is difficult for some to even express the term Israel, let alone recognize it as a state, and not just any state but the state of a people, this hated people, the nation-state of the Jewish people, hence the substitute – the Zionist entity.

2. And for all those who try to claim that their predicament is with Zionism and not with the Jewish people, note the implicit connection that this poster makes between the two – while demonizing the "Zionist entity" actually meaning the people whose entity this Zionist product is, the nation-state of the Jewish people.

3. And the way this entity is described by this poster is by referring to it as "murderous", as if the Jewish state of Israel is responsible for murders – and what is this if not part of the systematic demonizing of the Jewish state of Israel, attempting to de-legitimize it, and knowingly spreading a blood libel about it and by extension of course about its people, the Jewish people.

An innocent expression, but when repeated over and over again amounts to an anti-Jewish racism, no more and mo less!

Fellow posters, Jews and non-Jews alike, please do take a note of it.

srf
05 September 2007 at 20:03

I really cannot believe that someone can write an article so far away from truth, and I cannot conceive that anybody would believe this is true. This is the perfect example of the manipulation that takes place within the media, taking an image and converting it into something horrifying. I am sure, any person with the slightest bit of intelligence would be able to see far beyond the lies told in this article.

Robert Powell
05 September 2007 at 20:19

And I cannot believe that someone as mad as Nadav Katz is allowed to walk the streets - or are you posting your paranoia from the asylum?

Pierre
05 September 2007 at 21:23

Based on the conduct of the Palestinian jews if you are not an anti-semite you are missing some critical genes.

Yonatan
05 September 2007 at 21:42

I'm really not sure this article is worthy of comment. It was written by a nineteen year-old upstart at Oxford University, whose journalistic credentials are nil, and whose capacity to construct an argument reflects the fact that he was only quite recently toilet-trained. This is puerile, pathetic, unsubstantiated nonsense.

Achmed
05 September 2007 at 22:05

ppppffffffff......hilarious!!!! what a load of utter unsubstantiated nonsense...whoever wrote this should be writing commercials-NOT articles....what an anti Israeli slant...how many jewish/british or otherwise suicide bombers have been trained in these camps???

Pierre
05 September 2007 at 22:20

How many suicide bombers would there be if their land had not been stolen?

Not-Ashkenatzi
06 September 2007 at 01:33

These proud children of “Israel” (be it Ashke-nazi • Sephardi • Mizrahi) won’t just be defending the initial “promised land” they would also “defend” Sarkozi’s France, the “Greater Golders Green,” the whole of Iberia… shall we say the whole planet?

Yes, they would protect and defend the entire world from "terrorism;" bring law and justice to the international community; unify and globalize the world; eliminate usury; provide food and shelter for everyone; eradicate racism; remove boarders and (walls); promote brotherhood and equality, but only after they have killed all of the world’s “terrorists.”

rudz
06 September 2007 at 02:01

Pierre the land was not stolen. The State of Israel was created after the British mandate in Palestine had finished and the UN voted on new state being called Israel. Therefore the answer to your question is a lot, there are a lot of suicide bombers in land which isn't stolen.

louismfried
06 September 2007 at 04:18

More anti-semitic trash from the "current affairs " newspaper that previously uncovered the "kosher conspiracy". The late publishers of Der Steurmer would have enjoyed Holehouse's spurious comparisons contained in his pathetic diatribe.

Louis M. Fried

Barrister

Concord, Ontario, Canada

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 05:54

Robert Powell: "And I cannot believe that someone as mad as Nadav Katz is allowed to walk the streets - or are you posting your paranoia from the asylum?" No, Mr. Powell, I post from my residence at the capital city of the Jewish state of Israel, Jerusalem. Now that we have cleared this geographic question, could you be a bit more specific about the reasons for making your accusation? I look forward to clarify for you all that is within my ability to do, knowing full well that so many opinions by some people abroad are based on non-facts and misunderstandings of reality. Perhaps you too can be helped.

Cybertiger
06 September 2007 at 09:06

@Robert Powell

"And I cannot believe that someone as mad as Nadav Katz is allowed to walk the streets ...

Methinks Mr. Katz may be a plump Jewish cuckoo who refuses to fly the nest.

Olivia
06 September 2007 at 09:10

To suggest that the Israeli government shows double-standards by condemning Palestinian training camps, whilst allowing and promoting the Marva scheme is ludicrous and to suggest an equivalence between Marva and terrorist training camps in Pakistan is equally ill-informed.

These British teenagers are getting an experience of life in the Israel Defence Force (note the word "Defence"), which unfortunately is the reality of life in Israel.

Do we see scenes of British Jewish mothers at Heathrow airport wringing their hands , ululating and telling their children to shed the blood of their enemy while they are on their summer hols'? No! You are more likely to see a Jewish Mother reminding her son to wear sun tan lotion, drink plenty of water and above all to remember to call home!

I don't think Marva is a particularly commendable way to spend a summer holiday, but it is not a sinister training camp for home-grown terrorism. These kids come home after their Marva experience, go off to university and become lawyers, accountants and doctors and might occasionally reminisce about the summer they spent in the Israeli army. They don't come home, planning to bomb British airports or nightclubs!

D Berke
06 September 2007 at 09:24

Sirs,

Some years ago, I took part in the IDF program, Marva.

The purpose of the program is to give young Jews living in the diasporah a taste of the life which our fellow Jews are required to live as a result of the situation in the Middle East .

During the program I was not taught to hate, I was not told how to think, I was asked to do a lot of press ups and I was assured it was about a tenth as many as other young men my age were required to do.

I was not taught how to make bombs, or where to detonate myself to cause maximum casualties. I was not taught how to carry out random knife attacks on civilians. I was not taught to kill.

On my return to the UK , I was not told to carry out any mission or to wait for orders, nor was I supplied with weapons and asked to join a cell. I did not come back with a sense that violence solved anything.

Rather I was left feeling exhausted with a a small understanding from a short tourist program, what my kin go through in order to protect their families and country.

Perhaps you can speak to a young man who has attended a Jihadi training camp who can give the assurances I give above?

Daniel Berke

Robert Powell
06 September 2007 at 09:25

Yes Nadav we'd already gathered where you live - you are Israeli in the same way Julian Clary is homosexual: you have no other conversation! Living in Jerusalem, do you find that you are occasionally put in a white garment that restricts your arm movements when you start using the words 'blood libel'?

arbaminim
06 September 2007 at 09:27

Todays Daily telegraph (6th Sept) has an article written by Sophie Borland & Toby Helm about a "Tory 'National Service camp' plan" in which it claims that David Cameron will announce today plans for a National Service style holiday camp for all 16 year olds...'which would see youngsters undertaking military style training, and charity work'. Hang on, I have read about this in the New Statesman ! Surely this is a mistake. This is what the Israelis get up to - training their youngsters to be terrorists. (Mind you - how many Israeli terrorists have planned, plotted or carried out suicide attacks on anybody anywhere in the World - and how many Islamic terrorists have ?)So - back to the Daily telegraph - Where is this hotbed of revolution and terrorist training ? Not in Israel but in England !!!

But then, Israel bashing is the name of the game !!

Dorothy
06 September 2007 at 10:25

To Benjaminfinger regarding propaganda: Israeli children from nursery school onward are raised to worship militarism and the military. This involves taking them on class trips to military museums, sending soldiers (rather than the 80,000 poor elderly holocaust survivors who are starving in Israel) goodies on various holidays, and slews of other techniques to keep Israel militaristic. This is not, as some talk-backers seem to believe, because Israel is suffering from its neighbors. Rather Israel is the 4th major military power in the world, and uses that power to oppress Palestinians, and kills not only them (this past year alone the IOF--Israel Occupation Army--killed over 600 Palestinians) but also over 1000 Lebanese last year (many of them children). I, as an Israeli Jew who lives in Israel, resent comments from readers who know nothing about life here, do not know that Israel's governments (from the 1st till today) value land acquisition over life, and don't care how many Israelis (mainly Jews) die in the push to accomplish the 'Greater Israel.' Just how many more generations of our children do you want to die for this 'glorious' objective.

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 10:43

Mr. Powell,

Much of the incentive for Jews to have come home to Eretz Israel (Land of Israel) during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries have been just that, blood libels in the smallest as well as the largest sense of the world, having been accused by the general community in which they lived - be it in Greater Syria, Western or Eastern Europe – that "the Jews" were responsible for imaginary or not imaginary deaths of none Jews.

Many thousands of our people have paid with their very lives for such accusations, and many more thousands have been injured, both physically and emotionally, and have lost loved ones as well as property, and eventually as a result of this perpetual attitude toward our people, millions of us have been mass murdered in a systematic and industrial fashion.

Mr. Powell, blood libel is not a theoretic matter for us, it is a living matter for many of us, and it is part of our collective historic memory.

When such accusations of Jews murdering none Jews are spewed once again so elegantly but without any facts to support it, we know where such accusations lead, and some, east of us, have already called to wipe the Jewish state of Israel off the map and are preparing the means with which to do so – nuclear, to be delivered by long as well as medium and short range rockets, already tested by those forces stationed in Lebanon.

Unless you feel comfortable with such developments, I hope you too can appreciate our, Jews in general and Israeli Jews in particular of which I am one, our sensitivity to such language and attitude. I hope, I really hope.

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 10:44

Daniel Berke,

Thank you for your post, thank you very very much!

Nadav Katz

Jerusalem

israel

arbaminim
06 September 2007 at 11:10

Nadav - thank you for your post. You speak for many of us.

Shana Tova

Dorothy
06 September 2007 at 11:28

Dear Nadav Katz, etc. I agree about not spreading falsities (about Jews or anyone else), but you are weak on history. Zionism (a) took hold in Eastern Europe, where pogroms and other acts against Jews were rife (Jew in Moslem countries did not suffer this, and certainly the Palestinians were innocent of killing Jews prior to Zionism). (b) Zionism had relatively few Jewish supporters not only elsewhere, but also in Eastern Europe. What changed all this was the Holocaust. And even then, many Jews would have preferred to go to other countries rather than to Israel (had they been welcome). (c) Had Rommel not been defeated, Palestine would have been no safer for Jews than any other country was in Europe and the Middle East. (d) Israel did not turn out to be the haven that Zionists dreamed of; no where else in the world have so many Jews been killed since WWII as in Israel (about 23,000 soldiers since 1948, over 1000 civilians since 2000); no where else in the world are Jews less safe than in Israel; no where else in the world have Jews had to face 10 wars/battles in less than 60 years (from 1948 till today). As an Israeli who desires to see the children of this area grow up with a future, I say, let's restore the situation that existed before Israel: Palestine, where Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others lived together in peace. May my great grandchildren see the peace here that my children and grandchildren have not had the priviledge to. Not land, but life.

rosa
06 September 2007 at 12:12

When I did Marva back in 1991 it was certainly more serious than what those kids were doing in your interview. The training, which is incredibly hard for women, was to prepare me for two years in the army if I was going to go ahead and make Aliyah. It was an experience I will never forget. It gave me discipline and a respect for a nation constantly under attack.

The major difference between the children of Marva and Islamic Jihad is that the Israeli army is not the enemy of any Western civilisation. It does not teach to hate the West and prepare to bomb the UK or the States. It is purely an army that is there to protect Israel - which every country has a right to do.

The UK could learn from Israel, Germany, Greece, even Switzerland, where all young people attend military training or community service. Giving young people this type of training can give them a common sense of purpose, discipline and respect. The young people I see in these countries are mature and well behaved. It’s such a shame that most people see the young people of Britain as violent and dangerous.

Rick Gil
06 September 2007 at 12:22

Cybertiger wrote:

"Why were Iman al-Hams and 118 other Palestinian children deliberately murdered in 2004?"

Israel is a democracy governed by the rule of law. If your accusation is true then the perpatrators will be put on trial and punished accordingly. But since only very few cases have been brought, I suggest that those numbers have been greatly exaggerated by the the Islamo-Fascist hate propganda machine.

Now a question for you Cybertiger: why do the Islamo-Fascists hide amongst the civilian population placing them in mortal peril? Could it be so that if innocents are killed or wounded during a military action those who wish to believe medaevil blood libels will feel vindicated?

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 12:40

For those of us who elevate the position of Jews in Arab South West Asia (Middle East) and North Africa to the unrealistic level of near Paradise, please read the following about the Damascus affair and its aftermath:

The Damascus affair was an accusation of ritual murder and a blood libel against Jews in Damascus in 1840.

On 5 February 1840, Franciscan Capuchin friar Father Thomas and his Greek servant were reported missi