Shambo: the right to save or the right to slaughter

59 comments from readers

Chitta
01 August 2007 at 18:12

You say that to many Hindus Cow has the same value as a Human. However, we don't see any campaigns from such Hindus with regards to Culling of Cows worldwide including the local area of Shambo. There is also a lot of suffering of human life within the Hindu community e.g the untouchables and the like. Why aren't there any Campaigns on these. Why is the Shambo case special. Why does it need so much public attention.

The last section of the above article would suggest that this is just internal Hindu politics. Nothing whatsoever to do with Sanctity of Life or about Hindu stance on the underlying issue.

thakrar
01 August 2007 at 18:18

Reference has been made to the Bhagwad Geeta outlining a view that suits this writer, within the Mahabharat, the death of Dronacharya was through deceit as krishna had shown that the action taken should be the correct one for the masses and not just a few. In this light, it was right to slaughter Shambo to protect the masses. The argument in the article above does not hold.

Senthil Natesan
01 August 2007 at 23:40

Encouraging views - especially as they do not seem as dogmatic as the views of Mr Lakhani's. At least Mr Kallidai displays a remarkable level of tolerance and respect for both views, whereas Mr Lakhani's article smacks of arrogance.

sunita srivastav
01 August 2007 at 23:43

When I watched Shambo being led away to slaughter, I felt a deep sense of disappointment. I spoke to several of my friends and most of them felt the same. This campaign was very relevant for Hindus in this country and many young people like me felt that it was wrong to slaughter Shambo. Thanks to organisations like the Hindu Forum of Britaiin for keeping the flag flying.

Rori
01 August 2007 at 23:46

As a person who is not Hindu, I was struck by the determination of a small band of monks to save an animal they considered sacred. It was sad that the Government did not listen to their legitimate demands and succumbed to the powerful farming lobby. I think you guys did a splendid job of saying that Hinduism is compassionate not just to humans but also to animals. This definitely made people like me appreciate the softness and respectfulness of your faith.

Vijay Hirani
01 August 2007 at 23:48

This article conveys very vague information and makes generalising statements.

for example it says:

"By the same token, many farmers, ... the temple to say that they did not support the slaughter."

What does it mean by "many", considering that farmers cannot sell bTB infected meat and milk. Their livelihood is at stake if they don't give their animals for slaughter and get compensation. Are they as many as those who support the slaughter as article mentions later?

When the article says that "millions" of Hindus support Shamboo, did the farm receive millions of Emails or Phone calls. I can make sweeping statements that millions of Hindus support the slaughter in this special case.

Of the 20,000 signature (for the list one can clearly see many seem to be non Hindus) How many really had understood the complications of keeping the bull alive? in my view very few ...

Talking to at least 12 of my hindu friends who were inclined to sign purely on passion and Hindu unity became more rational, when I presented the facts similar to the one's in the article "Sacrificing Hinduism Credibility" in this magazine. All except one change their minds.

This article is very poorly written.

The fact that the author at the end of the article choose to score points against other Hindu bodies without constructively arguing against their views, shows the authors immaturity regarding how serious he takes this issue. Reading this last 2 paragraphs where the author attacks individuals clearly reduces his credibility to zero.

Vijay Hirani
02 August 2007 at 00:57

Sentil,

I was surprised as well that the author has shown equal respect for both views as in all the previous statements he has been very severe on the welsh assembly and Defra.

I get the feeling the reason he is being more balanced is because he is losing credibility as the Hindu representive in the eyes of the govermnent

Chitta
02 August 2007 at 02:34

Sunita

The story of Shambo and Skanda Vale Monks touches the heart to say the least. There is a beauty in this relationship and the struggle that the monks put themselves through to save this life. There is also another side to this story in that it is a reflection of the reality of life that we all face on a daily basis to a greater or lesser extent. The question is what stance should we take when we have to face the uneven realities of life. Is it in getting emotionally wound up with the misfortunes of life or is it in learning to deal with the realities of life in a sensible way. In what direction should we steer ourselves and our children. What is your view?

Let me point out a real harsh fact that contrasts this story. Please find a few minutes to visit the nearest slaughter house. Only for 3 minutes if you can bear it for that long. There are Thousands of healthy Bulls being slaughtered daily to be turned into food. Why aren't these Hindus campaigning against the mass slaughter that is taking place every moment.

Are Hindus really justified in embracing an ill Bull in full majesty and yet remain dismissive about all the healthy Bulls that are being slaughtered in masses.

The story doesn't really end there. Ultimately, there is even bigger picture to be considered. That is of the widespread human suffering. Have these Hindus really got there priorities right? Are they living in the real world?

Chitta
02 August 2007 at 02:48

There is an ancient Hindu adage that I was taught when I was very young. It is very relevant to this debate. In the current situation this adage will translate to something like this:

"If 20,000 people were jumping into the well does it make it the most natural thing so that we should all follow"

Similarly, you may have come across the metaphor that all the ducks follow the mother duck. That is in the nature of the ducks. This doesn't mean that the mother duck is a good leader.

Sridutt Ramsharan
02 August 2007 at 08:54

Vijay Hirani

Your arguments seem poor and one-sided. By the way, this is the first time, I have ever seen Ramesh Kallidai say anything like this about Hindu Council UK or Lakhani. However, Mr Lakhani has been constantly attacking Hindu Forum, and its Secretary, and making such personal attacks does not make Lakhani lose his credibility to zero, does it? According to you, the rule only applies to Kallidai does it? It is clear that you come with the same personal baggage that Mr Lakhani carries against the Hindu Forum. He has been viciously attacking another organisation and another individual in newspapers stories, but his own organisation of which he is a Director, and his own Secretary, have supported the campaign, as late as last week, but he doesnt say a word about them. Surely, it is Lakhan's credibility that is zero. I have spoken to several Hindus up and down the country, and all have similar views about Lalkhani: that he is full of conceit, eccentric, and his bee-in-the bonnet abot pluralism is aggressive, fundamentalist and gives Hinduism a bad name.

Sridutt Ramsharan
02 August 2007 at 08:57

Chitta, there is also an ancient Hindu adage that those who point fingers at others should first look at oneself. Mr Lakhani is Director of Hindu Concil UK, but he does not speak against it for supporting the Shambo campaign. Instead he attackes other organisations and makes personal statements about others. By the way, you are good at inventing 'ancient Hindu' adages!

Dil Raja
02 August 2007 at 09:09

Er Vijay Hirani - dont you think your points are poorly written? I can subscribe to the views of Kallidai's because they seem more balanced than the views of the author or the other article you refer to: Sacrificing Hinduism's Credibillity.

What is incredulous to me is the hypocirisy you display in your posts. You say that if Kallidai speaks out against another organisation or individual, he loses his credibility. But Mr Lalkhani, whom you clearly support or know, has attacked Hindu Forum and Kallidai in the same story you refer to. Why does his credibility not go down to zero for making these personal attacks?

Moreover, the last two paragraphs of this story are not attacks on anybody. They are just clear facts. In fact the last paragraph is not even an attack, it makes a case for pluralism - one that Mr Lakhani has conveniently sacrificed in his story.

Dr Suresh Chiltern
02 August 2007 at 09:16

Thank you Mr Kallidai. You story makes sense. Being an Anglo-Indian, I am well aware of Hindu culture and ethos, even though I was raised a catholic. One of the things that mattered to me so much about this campaign was the way by which it captured the imagination of so many people around the world who came to support and empathise. I am a vegetarian myself, as I follow the order of St Francis Assisi who was a vegetarian too, as are many Seventh Day Adventists, for instance. I cannot understand and do not support the mindless slaughter of innocent animals. The arguments put forward here by some of the people who have commented (Chitta and Mr Hirani) have clearly missed the point. Their stress on saving the money for this campaign to send it to Indian orphans is illogical and unsustainable. If this was indeed the case, we ought to stop treatment of all animals in this country and rush to send money to humans around the world, as according to them, human life is more important.

Sacheen Nanda
02 August 2007 at 11:13

Chitta

Your comments are naive, childish and completely missed the point that Sunita had made so nicely.

You say: "There are Thousands of healthy Bulls being slaughtered daily to be turned into food. Why aren't these Hindus campaigning against the mass slaughter that is taking place every moment. "

Last year, I joined a campaign to save a five year old girl's life because there were no Asian bone marrow donors for her. The campaign must have cost £10,000 but we found several donors who extended her life. By extending your logic, we should have stopped campaigning to save this child's life, and gone to Darfur to witness the 50,000 children who are being killed there, and campaigned only for that. Why are you spending money goint to the cinema or eating in Sakonis for instance, when you could be campaigning for the children in Darfur? The answer is simple. Not everything goes by the numbers game, Chitta. People identify with issues that move them - not simply by numbers. We are all humans. Shambo did not represent the life of one bull, He represents the life of 25,000 cows and bulls slaughtered needlessly by the British Government every year. To your childish logic it may be wrong, and you may even pass judgement on me for campaigning to have bone marrow donors, instead of sending money to India for diarrohea packs to save the lifes of 1000 children every month. But who are you to decide which life is to be saved and which one not to be saved? Who are you to tell people that the life of the child requiring bone marrow is less important than the lives of the children being slaughtered in Darfur? By the same token, who are you to say that the life of Shambo is less important to campaign for than the thousands of animals being slaughtered mercilessly? Stop playing God by taking shelter of the numbers games, stop being so immature, and do something useful please - stop posting your childish retorts to sensible balanced and widely repsected people like Kallidai,. It seems that Mr Lakhani has just succombed to the two greatest diseases that can fall anybody: arrogance at his own position; and envy of Kallidai. And you have joined his club of arrogance and envy, no doubt.

Are Hindus really justified in embracing an ill Bull in full majesty and yet remain dismissive about all the healthy Bulls that are being slaughtered in masses.

The story doesn't really end there. Ultimately, there is even bigger picture to be considered. That is of the widespread human suffering. Have these Hindus really got there priorities right? Are they living in the real world?

Sacheen Nanda
02 August 2007 at 11:20

Chitta,

You say: "Are Hindus really justified in embracing an ill Bull in full majesty and yet remain dismissive about all the healthy Bulls that are being slaughtered in masses. "

So why are you here in this country eating your pakoras and drinking your chai, when you could be campaigning for the children being killed in Darfur?

You say: "The story doesn't really end there. Ultimately, there is even bigger picture to be considered. That is of the widespread human suffering. Have these Hindus really got there priorities right? Are they living in the real world?"

It seems that if there was anybody not living in the real world, it is you. You have passed judement based on this statement that the 20,000 Hindus who supported the campaign did so out of ignorance and emotion. However, you are the person who is guilty of not living in the real world - as my previous post illustrated - by saying that as long as there is human suffering, one should not support campaigns like Shambo's! Extremely naive and childish, this view! Human suffering will always be there, and different people do different things to alleviate it. You say that only your way is the right way (that is to look at the greater good and the greater slaughter etc) but in practice, you cannot really do it yourself can you? If you could, you would take the next flight to Uttar Pradesh and save the children who are dying because they dont have hydration packs. Would you do that? No - you would rather pass judgement on 25,000 people who in my opinion are better Hindus than you.

ushma williams
02 August 2007 at 11:22

hinduism works as a spiritual democracy- allows each individual to choose their own concept of the sacred- so long as it is not transgressive of others sacrality. this freedom that hinduism provides comes with responsibility - adherence to the social norms -read in this case the laws of the land. the laws of the U.K. with regards to sick animals in unequivocal.

the community of Shambo did their dharma to the fullest, and the authorities had to do theirs.

Sacheen Nanda
02 August 2007 at 14:55

Thanks Ushma... at least you made some sensible comments, unlike the two jokers Vijay Hirani and Chitta. Funnily enough, those who are not Lakhani's supporters sound much more pluralistic and secular than he does and his followers, even thoiugh he considers himself the self-styled Guru of pluarlism./ Did you read what that other joker supporter of Lakhani called 'the Abrahamic onslaught'? If this is Lakhani, then he is certainly not pluralistic - just plain fundamentailistic.

Chitta
02 August 2007 at 18:53

Sacheen

Thank you for sharing with us the good work that you are doing for the community. I have a tremendous empathy towards such determination. In the same way I empathise with the determination shown by the Monks of Sakanda Vale to save Shambo.

The above points are not what is at the heart of the issues in question. The real issues hinge around the following:

(i) Shambo is made a special case on religious grounds. However, religious grounds themselves are not clear. When it became clear that Shambo could not be made a special case without support from community at large and various authorities a campaign was launched at an international scale. The problem has been that those campaigning seem to be oblivious to the wider concerns on several fronts and practicalities of achieving a solution. As indicated in Sunita's comment this is more about waving the flag than upholding any religious grounds. That is meaningless.

(ii) Hindu leadership has also become actively involved with this issues at an emotional level. Comment from Sunita is a testimony as to how emotions of thousands of young people are being raised by this issue unnecessarily. My response to her comment is about bringing the wider picture into the equation. Hindu Leadership also have a responsibility to act in a constructive and sensible manner to deal with the whole situation. The article above does not do this. Continuing to play with emotions is dangerous.

Therefore, Mr Lakhani is quite right to bring to our attention this poor and week leadership. He has our full support.

my voice
02 August 2007 at 19:18

I think the monks of the temple of skanda vale have done quite a lot for Hinduism and religion in general by showing the world, that they do take religious teachings, especially Hindu-ones, serious to the end; and not just talking about it, as so many other "religions" and "religious people" do - and all this in a completely non-violent approach, as anybody with truly religious convictions should.

Sadly they failed to save the life of Shambo, having done all they could possibly do.

What I don´t understand is Mr. Lakhani and his "rational" approach towards the issue. I cannot find anything rational in his views; only a great misunderstanding of the values of the religion he is claiming to follow, mixing it up with some self-made teachings of "rationality" and "greater goods" for probably some diplomatic reasons as well.

But there is some good in this as well: hopefully many more hindus and non-Hindus will now want to find out, what it is reallly about with the teachings, that made a small temple go to the highest courts to save the life of their bull.

But I wouldn´t suggest to ask Mr. Lakhani about it.

ushma williams
02 August 2007 at 21:19

thanks sacheen for your kind words, but here i must say that i agree with Mr Lakhani on this aspect.. i think what he is trying to put forward is rationality into a very emotive issue. one must not forget that perception and inference are two of the three corner stones of Hindu Philosophy. the issue has as far as one can see, become a "tamasha", to use a coloquial term, and Hinduism looking like a religion that is incapable of giving a pragmatic and reasoned response of any type. it is painful to read all the sniping and personal attacks specially by people who are puting forward the argument for AHIMSA . Ahimsa first begins in ones thoughts and withh all the nasty thoughts being written about Mr Lakhani, i sincerely wonder how we are able to even think of taking a stand on non violence. where is the balance that Hinduism promotes amongst its adherents. i do not see any. this issue needs to be laid to rest along with Shambo and we need to move on.

Hparekh
02 August 2007 at 23:13

Sacheen,

It is very disappointing to see how a discussion on an issue such as Shambu the bull has disintegrated into such personal attacks and with so much anger. In curiosity, I looked up both discussions. Firstly to me the key issue really comes down to the role of the state in ensuring the health and safety of the nation versus an individual’s belief (in this case sacredness of the bull). As the monks at Skanda Vale have the right to protest, it is also the right of authorities to uphold the rule of law. In democratic societies, the separation of the state and religion is clear. Can you imagine trying to please every belief and the chaos of accommodating all types of laws – English, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu. A nightmare scenario! The role of Hindu Forum to me has always been unsatisfactory. It is very easy to jump on the band wagon and get people excited on emotional issues. However the real focus should be to the challenges to continuously improve the quality of the Hindu society, inequalities within it and to defend and enhance against its position in a modern society. (That is why we are called Sanatan Dharma). The Hindu Forum has been completely invisible in these burning issues – examples are the caste system (a blot on the Hindu society) and conversion issues. I further believe that criticism is healthy – this should be an opportunity to self examine and improve the quality of any organisation.

H.Parekh

Vijay Hirani
02 August 2007 at 23:47

Dear Sridutt Ramsharan,

Critic offered on a person’s view, not the same as attacking the author.

Jay has raised some very powerful comments on this Shamboo issue. If you feel that you don’t agree with his views on his article please take it point by point and challenge him. I will be keen to read them.

Let me make one thing clear, I have no love for The Hindu council U.K. But I very agree with Jay Lakhani views. I will put them in the next comment why.

Dear Dil Raja,

When I heard about this head to head competition, I thought I would see two views with one saying that there is no risk with bTB and the other saying that bTB is a risk. And give strong arguments on all three grounds, medical, rational and religious.

But I noticed that in the article by Hindu forum does not mentioned even bTB in the article once.

Another point he makes which I agree is that for many Hindus killing an animal no matter what the risk to humans is unthinkable.

But he has omitted a big portion of other Hindus like me who see the reason for slaughter of Shambo in this special case only (I am a Vegan.) As many Hindus claim that Hindu forum is the main body and that Hindu council is nothing, then shouldn’t they represent us as well.

For a pluralistic point of view shouldn’t the author have vigorously supported views of people like me and he did for other supporters of Shamboo. Somehow the author is seen as pluralistic because he gives the farmers views as an alternative, baffling.

I still maintain that the author could have done a much better job on this article and not made sweeping generalisation.

Also note that if an article written by Jay Lakhani defied my rational faculties, I would reject it without the slightest bit of hesitation.

Nobody a has taken his points and rebutted him, why ??

Dear Sacheen Nanda,

You have called me names, but have not told me why my points on sweeping generalisation made in the article are false. I am willing to change my view if you give me convincing arguments.

Vijay Hirani
02 August 2007 at 23:50

Dear all,

When I got the petition, I was very eager to sign. But I thought of reading about TB first. And I requested every one of my friends to read it as well. Please go through this webpage and see how deadly this disease is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis

This disease is ruthless has decimated hundreds of thousands of people in the U.K over the centuries. People were locked up in sanatorium, torn from their families causing extreme misery.

It is a disease of antiquity and still very prevalent despite vaccination programmes.

When you see the history of TB in Britain, you can understand why there is a very high barrier and very little tolerance. Understanding it from a historical perspective really gives one an understanding of extreme traumas that have been faced due to TB; One can see why this is such an important issue for the government.

Also if we feel so strongly about this issue, surely we must not allow it to happen again, are we willing to divert money from the excessive Hindu wealth that exists in the UK into research is TB and bTB, it isn’t difficult, foregoing our spectacular weddings, smart cars and obscene diamonds (usually blood!) would raise enough for any research institute to take us seriously. We must if we have such strong convictions take responsibility for them and act upon them. Perhaps the Hindu Forum wants to look into this and while they are at it, perhaps extend funded to Foot and Mouth disease so that we do not once again see the extensive cull ( killing!) we did some years ago.

For those of you who have been vaccinated, or have children who are, consider have many animals died in the process, Shamboo was precious, so were all those rats and chimps. Contradictions are a plenty and what is apparent is that things are never as straight forward as they seem.

For those of you who suggest we should send infected cows to India, India has enough and for a nation founded initially on Ahimsa and respect an appalling degree of poor animal welfare, keeping and animal alive with no better welfare is no less miserable! India is not a dumping ground for yet another tragedy; please do not make it one for animals.

Having spoken to many elderly people within an organisation I sometimes work within, changed my mind. They have long memories and remember the pain that TB and bTB has caused. Of course for any animal to die is tragic, but I am afraid people come first.

Maha Guru
03 August 2007 at 00:46

To all defenders of Hindu forum,

Hindu forum is the bigger hypocrate of all.

Hindu Forum's choice of chairperson (S bhatia) for Hindu Forum Europe is running a chain of KENTUCKY FRIED CHICKEN shops.

So the moral about reverence for life from Hindu Forum is: KENTUCKY FRIED CHICKEN GOOD -- BURGER KING BAD !!

Ha !!! Don't believe me, eh .. google "Fried Chicken Hindu Forum" ...

I mean what the hell was Pujya Maha Guru Ramesh Kallidai (Or should I use his real ISKCON name ramopadadas) thinking by approving this guy.

It is so obvious that the Hindu forum is a front for ISKCON and the I-foundation.

Come on guys/gals do you really believe that ISKCON can speak for all Hindus

Talk about supporters of Chicken Nugget dealers calling the Kettle black.

Yea ... Right ... You really care about Shamboo ... Gimme a break

Shame ... Shame ...

Chitta
03 August 2007 at 01:21

Sridutt

You say that "Mr Lakhani has been constantly attacking Hindu Forum, and its Secretary " On the other hand HFB claims to be the largest and fastest growing umbrella organisation representing Hindus in Britain. In that case there is nothing at all wrong with seeking HFB and the members of its top team to be accountable to Hindu Community. We are very greatful that Mr Lakhani has raised his concerns publically and we are eager to hear some sensible dialogue coming back from this organisation and its leaders. It is strange that RK, with all his credentials, feels threatned by a few pointed questions from Mr Lakhani. I would expect immediate response from a man of his caliber. I am puzzled why it has taken so long to get a response. The response itself raises a lot more questions than it answers. A large part of RKs article uses Mr Lakhani's own words turned around and fired back at Mr Lakhani. I might expect such copycat tactics from a 12 year old and may even forgive a 16 year old for resorting to this level. It is unforgivable for a man claiming to be the top leader of Hindu community in UK.

If Mr Lakhani's words are taken out of RKs article it would seem that a proper response is still due from RK. We wait.

I have spent some time today looking at the HFB website. I am now tearing my hairs to understand what this organisation has done for Hindus in UK, What it is doing today, and What it intends to do in the future. I cannot find the remotest link between this organisation and Hindu religion. They do claim to have a links in high places in the political circles. It is not clear how these links have benefited the hindu community, if at all. The only tangible things that I can lay my hands on are:

(i) Celebrate Diwali in the House of Commons (I don't remember the invite though. A few phone calls I made this evening to find out if anyone else has ever heard of this. Nop! )

(ii) It seems that HFB does specialise in hyping up small religious issues. Shambo issue is the latest one in a series.

There is a lot of hype about a lot of projects that HFB intend to undertake but are yet to start.

I genuinely wish to be enlightened more about HFB activities in case I have overlooked something. I also wish to be enlightened as to what is the basis of the claim that this is the largest and fastest growing Hindu organisation.

I suspect that if I did a bit of research on HCUK website, I'll find the same story. I am not going to waste my time unless someone tells me that it is really a different story there.

Mr Lakhani is a one man band. With his rational approach he is doing a far better job in educating our yongsters, the school teachers and the UK authorities. He deserves all the help he can get. Yes he is not being very nice man nor is compromising on issues of religion. He doesn't hide in a corner either just to be nice. He is out there fighting his corner. Exactly what I would expect from leader.

HINDU Solja
03 August 2007 at 01:53

You guys are all misisng the point. Take this debate outa this forum, pick up da fone and speak ta each otha. Best of luck, and stop this nonsense now.

Average Hindu
03 August 2007 at 10:46

Let's face it Ramesh Kalidai wanted massive publicty of this shambo saga and nothing more.You may not agree with all Dilip Lakhani's views but at least he’s going out there and trying to do something for the Hindu cause but with HFB all you ever see is them jumping on the media bandwagon when ever they get the chance. They're not fooling Hindus anymore with their antics and will be exposed for their fraud.

Ajay
03 August 2007 at 10:55

Shambles created over Shambo by Hindu forum makes us want to unpack the people who run Hindu forum. First there is the patron CB Patel who has been a devout Iskonite for many years. Then we have the spiritual head of Hindu Forum - Gauri das the head of Iskcon (presently being investigated by his own body for abusing children in India). Then we come to Arjan Vekaria who is also a trustee of iskcon for many years. Why does the VHP support Hindu Forum everytime? Because secretary of VHP Kishor Ruparelia's son-in-law is a major player at Iskcon. What a bunch of interesting people all with iskcon background. Not only running Hindu Forum but also running Hindu Aid a body that Andrew Gilligan of Evening Standard was questioning for taking 140,000 pounds of government funds. Do Ramesh and Arjan share this loot equally ?

Ajay
03 August 2007 at 10:56

I foundation and Hindu School

Iskcon is a cult with many names: One name is Hindu Forum. The bull story shows what they are capable of, demolishing Hinduism in a foolhardy manner. What are the other names this cult uses: We also have 'I' foundation a body that is run by only iskconites but pretends to be a comprehensive Hindu body and has managed to dupe the government to give it millions of pounds to run a Hindu school. Because it is not iskcon but I foundation the government can turn a blind eye to the child abuse scandals Iskcon is involved with in USA. What a clever ploy but surely the government only funded the I foundation and not iskcon?? It is not only Shambo whose head rolled, a ministers head may roll over the Shambo affair.

The real culprits who should be brought to book in the Shambo affair are those people who allowed this OPPORTUNIST (like all Iskcon chaps), to get in a position of power for that we can thank Brian Pearce of the Inter Faith Network. Brian is well-known colonial who likes to control people of other faiths by the adage of divide and rule. So he brought in Ramesh from nowhere and gave him credibility with the Home office. Ramesh suited his purpose, he had no real love for Hinduism and he was out for himself so he would be a wonderful token Hindu representative. No threat to Christinity. The second culprit is Mr CB Patel of Asian Voice who when the milk miracle took place was heard telling the media that he is not a practising Hindu so he could not comment but since he has now turned into the patron of Hindu Forum. What is the reason for his change of heart? Like Ramesh he also wants to advance his position on the back of Hinduism. It would be nice to become Lord Patel?

Llolan
03 August 2007 at 14:37

If a religious community, like the temple here or the Hindus in general, does seriously believe in the concept of "the sanctity of life", then they must of course be very interested to keep it up in their temples. If the agenda of another group of people (here the government) is to "kill what is ill", then this has nothing to do with the "sanctity of life", it is a different concept, that can not be cooperated with, unless those believing in the "sanctity of life" want to loose their credibility and make a joke out of what they believe in. What Mr. Lakhani suggests is exactly the latter, and I think he should be seriously investigating how such thoughts could ever enter his mind. And he should not forget, that in the given case, the danger for other animals to be infected with TB, if it really existed here, is not a good reason to give up the concept of the "sanctity of life" , because all those other animals, "endangered" by TB, are to be slaughtered for one or the other reason by their owners anyway quite soon - a much greater "risk" to them than TB. Hopefully people do now better understand where the real "risk" for the life of most animals lies.

The next suggestion of Mr. Lakhani will be that instead of sending our pets to the vet for treatment, when they are ill, we let them kill (by DEFRA or someone else) and donate the money we saved then to some charity in india or somewhere else, that looks after the needs of pets (see his example with the cows in india).

Doesn´t anybody realise the false logic behind these suggestions? Is it about some money here, or about a life in someones responsibility?

My conclusion is, that Mr. Lakhani doesn´t understand the concept or doesn´t believe in it (which is probably the same here).

There was no reason to kill life in this case, but every reason to fight for it. The Hindu Council UK and the Hindu Forum UK should quickly go together and talk to the government about a solution for temple-animals, so that there is at least a few places on earth, where a religion of compassion can be practised.

sankara
03 August 2007 at 16:53

Chitta,

Your criticism of hindu 'unresponsiveness' or 'indifference' to cow slaughtering taking place everywhere else in world reveals your lack of maturity in analysing issues and debating sensibly.

Cow butchering and slaughtering in the UK and many other countries is typically done for food. Vegetarian/vegan Hindus are not attempting to force every society to change their food habits to those of the hindu ways. Rather, they seek to educate and enlighten people on the cruelty and futility of killing animals for the sake of food when other choices and options are easily available in most modern societies, and encourage people to adopt more healthier, environmentally more friendlier and spiritually more peaceful foods.

As for the monks' protests against the killing of shambo, the issue has always been about protecting a living creature that was never part of the food chain, but viewed as a loving 'member' of the temple . Hindus, as other well-meaning communities, can only seek to change what is within their immediate environment; the monks were simply attempting to stop the killing of a member of their temple through peaceful methods.

It is anamalous to the situation of myself wanting to, and having every right to, have a say on the fate of MY pet than deciding the fate of someone else's pet. The monks were simply trying to protect a livng creature that was part of their community - they were not seeking to forcefully change the eating habits of the local Welsh.

As for untouchability - there has been for centuries campaigns against untouchabilty by enlightened hindus themselves. Indian Constitution forbids practice of untouchability. However, that does not mean that ALL persons in a society are enlightened. Just like racism still exists in most western countries despite laws banning discrimination and many enlightened westerners protesting against discrimination of any kind, so too is untouchability practiced by unenlightened individuals, despite many hindus having worked, and continuing to work, relentlessly to eradicate it from society. Just being born a hindu does not make someone enlightened; rather it is studying and understanding the philosophy and adopting the spiritual practices - as the monks are doing - is what makes individuals truly enlightened. Untouchability or racism for that matter throughout the world will be eliminated when there are more and more enlightened beings in society.

ushma williams
03 August 2007 at 18:24

after reading the various view points in the ongoing debate, it now has boiled down to rationalisation versus emotionalisation. i take it that Mr. Lakhani represents the rational aspect of hinduism and Mr Kallidai represents the emotional aspect. so lets see

what stance does hinduism on these two areas of human nature.

let me quote from the bhagwad gita

chapter 2.49 "SEEK SALVATION IN THE WISDOM OF REASON ".

chapter 18.51 "WHEN THE VISION OF REASON IS CLEAR, AND IN STEADINESS THE SOUL IS IN HARMONY"

CHAPTER18.57 "TAKE REFUGE IN THE YOGA OF REASON"

CHAPTER 3.32 " THOSE WHO FOLLOW NOT MY DOCTRINE ARE MEN BLIND TO ALL WISDOM,CONFUSED IN MIND: THEY ARE LOST.

CHAPTER 3.42 GREATER THAN THE SENSES IS THE MIND. GREATER THAN THE MIND IS REASON.

reason is given the greatest importance in the Gita. the first condition for a man to be worthy of the divine is purity of reason. "it is by using the faculty of reason that the individual is able to distinguish true emotion from false emotionalism,faith from fanaticism, imagination from fancy, and true vision from a visionary illusion"

one of Hinduisms greatest strengths has been PRAGMATISM. also its ability of confict resolution - how to find a middle ground between two opposing arguments.arriving at a solution using reason has always been its answer.

hindus understand that emotions are very important but more important are constuctive rather than irrational emotions. it through our rational faculties ( GNYAANA YOGA the path of knowledge) that saves us from irrational emotions.

it is important for those representing Hinduism in the U.K. to keep this in mind. a hysterical and irrational approach has been taken about the Shambo incident and does not reflect Hinduism in its entirety.

the Hindu bodies need to be more reflective and astute as to its future responses.

Chitta
03 August 2007 at 19:19

sankara

It is very naive of you to think that the issue is contained to bounds of skanda vale, the monks, and their animals. International community is engaged with this issue. The change that you are referring to is not within the control of the Monks nor constrained to Skanda Vale. I have no issue with anyone pursuing the wider change. So far no one has actually engaged into the wider change process. Only visible engagement is at 2 levels:

(i) Skanada Vale monks seeking to fulfill their self interest.

(ii) Hindu Forum of Britain (HFB) under the auspices of the author of this article strirring up the international community. My brief research yesterday (see above) has revealed that they seem to be very good at this. The only real activity that theye seem to be engaged in. They never follow up on these issues after the big Hoo Haa. So in some ways this whole debate may be taking a new turn altogether.

nationwide psychotherapy
03 August 2007 at 20:57

Now the delusion becomes perfect. A (Hindu-) communities struggle to safe the life of one of their temple-animals at any financial cost is called "self-interest" here.

Somewhere the nonsense must end.

Vijay Hirani
03 August 2007 at 23:49

Dear Nationwide Psychotherapy,

The cost this:

Two further animals have contacted TB, five other suspect cases. possibility of the bTB spreading outside the farm. A test has been offerred to all persons who came in contact with Shamboo

This sounds like self-interest without regard for the implication on other life.

TB / bTB is an ugly monster that is rearing it head again in the UK.

Chitta
04 August 2007 at 00:21

taking a proposal to the court giving a glib assurance that Shambo and other animals would be safe gaurded at any cost. This would never have stood a chance of even being considered.

The issue of getting the law changed is still outstanding as other temple animals could still be affected at Skanda Vale or elsewhere.

I don't see 'Save the Bull' campaign being pursued with same vigour as was done in the last few weeks. In fact is anyone pursuing to get the law changed at all. After all that is the only pragmatic way. This whole exercise was a futile campaign from the outset. No doubt that HFB will claim the browny points for creating the havoc.

Chirag
04 August 2007 at 06:46

It is very naive to think that the 25,000 people who signed did so because they were not informed. In fact it is judgemental - which is not surprising because that is what Chitta and Vijay have been doing all along. Thinking that their opinion is the only right one, and everyone else's is wrong. It is very naive to think that those who respect the sancitity of life cannot do so in the way they wish to express it. Everyone makes an invidividual choice. But according to you Chitta and Vijay, only your choice is the right one. Unfortunately, you missed the whole point in Ramesh's article. And Vijay, he did not propose this view recently - it was done a looong time ago in the Guardian. How arrogant you guys must be to say that he picked up words from Lakhani - he clearly has his own stance, but of course your arrogance in claiming Lakhan's voice as the only rational voice speaks volumes about how narrow mainded you are. HFB did not score brownie points - it was quite obvious that Lakhani did - go and ask him why he is so anxious to publicise every single appearance he makes on BBC radio by sending emails about them to thousands of people. I have never seen anybody in HFB do that.

sangam
04 August 2007 at 12:32

Shah, i seems to me that you and Chitta have sorely become blind to Lakhani's indescretions. If HFB gets publicity it is because of their work - but I havent seen them sending emails to 10,000 people with every single interview they give on media. In fact if they do, we would be flooded with emails because I hear them three of four times every week on some TV or Radio. On the other hand, Mr Lakhani sends emails to 10,000 people through the Hindu Council UK every time he so much as sneezes on a remote BBC station, which is thankfully, far and in between. Maybe that is why, he steadfastly refuses to criticise Hindu Council, even though he is a Director of that organisation, and that organisation joined and supported the Shambo campaign publicly. In spite of the fact that his own organisation according to him 'sacrificed the credibility of Hinduism' he continues to be Director there - which is hypicritical, dishonest and lacks any moral value (especially as he has not breathed a word against them but only HFB). This to me proves that he is nothing but a mere politician, out there to use the Hindu Council UK's network, but slamming HFB because he is not using their network for his personal gain. To me this single act - not resigning from Hindu Council despite their having sacrificed the credibility of Hinduism according to him - shows his double standards, and he therefore loses all authority to call himself an educatiion expert. If he had an iota of integrity he would have included Hindu Council in his criticism and immediately resigned from the untenable position of continuing as Director. Actions speak louder than words. And I have seen all your posts and read the message trail with some amusement - you just dont answer relavant questions about Lakhani's integrity: why it is OK for Lakhani to slam other people, and why it is not OK for others to do the same with Lakhani. As someone else said above - 'you guys make me crack'.

Sangita Dadlani
04 August 2007 at 12:52

What we are doing here is rather 'UnHindu'. The Rigveda declares that for a true followed of Dharma noble thoughts will come from all directions. Seeing the posts by Chitta, Blore, Vijay Hirani, Chirag, Sacheen and all the others, I can see that these are all far from noble thoughts: they are merely 'Kallida this' Kallidai that" or 'Lakhani this and Lakhani that'.

If you really feel that continuing this discussion to keep defending your protagnists is the call for Dharma, continue to do so. It will just be a sad day for Hinduism to see individuals of your calibre who seem learned slanging it out here. What does it matter who has the last word? What indeed matters is the quality of your words. Please stop defending each side and responding to more and more points. Let there be peace.

Average Hindu
04 August 2007 at 14:42

Will Hindu Forum be rushing to save the cows in Surry today as mouth and foot disease has broken out there ?

nataraja
04 August 2007 at 17:16

"Will Hindu Forum be rushing to save the cows in Surry today as mouth and foot disease has broken out there ?"

I wouldn´t suggest so, ´cause there is no Hindu Temple involved in that case and it is not the role of Hinduism or Hindu Forums and Councils to raise a campaign at any time when unnecessary slaughter of animals happens in the world - this is not a practical approach, although most Hindus (as spiritual people from other faiths) do surely not welcome the slaughter of these animals.

Hindu Forums and Councils should first try to be able to save those animals which are owned by temples; rather than dreaming of changing the world. They should at least be able to give an example - I think most of us agree with this. Except the Mr. Lakhanis, I´m afraid, who are trying to make a mockery out of people who do exactly this, and also the Mr. Lakhanis are trying to introduce the new teachings of their own "rationality" into the subject. And this does not aim at Mr. L. personally, but on his false views and unhelpful attitudes. We are all human and make mistakes and sometimes think and act in a wrong way. Why doesn´t he simlply admit he´s wrong (which is so obvious) and then supports those who want to talk to the government about the law to be changed? Otherwise, I think, he should leave from his post in the Council.

yoda
04 August 2007 at 18:39

Shree Ganeshaya Namah and Jai Shree Krishna:

I just read many of the blogs/postings ‘ruminated’ by various participants, Hindus or otherwise, regarding how a bull (~aka Shambo) suffering from bTB and the subsequent social and moral dilemma has been/was handled in the past few days by the authorities and institutions involved (government, temple, society and members-at-large from both organizations). Hai Allah!! -- It is indeed extremely alarming to notice that a debate on a bull suffering from bTB in a country that has most recently been ravaged by Bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE), commonly known as mad cow disease, has turned into a “pissing match” between two organizations whose most important objective is to offer a “unified” front, and an unequivocal and “BALANCED” viewpoint on holistic Hinduism to those seeking to learn more about it in the UK and world over.

As a reader maintaining his emotional composure that allows me to rationalize differing viewpoints and then offer suggestions/comments objectively, I must agree wholeheartedly with just two seemingly learned and wise individuals who have posted their views on this recent “Shambo sham”. One such individual is Ushma Williams who has hit the nail on the head with her comments posted on 2nd and 3rd August. And the other individual is Sangita Dadlani who has posted her astute comment on 4th August. So folks on either side of the issue -- it is time to move on! But not before each of you goes back and takes the time to read all the comments posted from both ends of the debate. This is necessary in order to understand how ridiculous and full of “Shambo shit” (pun intended) most of the comments are from either side of the aisle.

It is time for ALL of us to wake up and smell the tea, pastries and cucumber sandwiches! This debate has an underlying tone that happens to be much larger than the comedy blogs around saving Shambo versus culling Shambo, cows and motherhood versus bulls and fatherhood, beefeaters (not the Yeoman Wardens found at the Tower of London) versus vegetarianism, KFC Versus BK, Hindu Council versus Hindu Forum, one’s physical stance versus one’s religious/spiritual stance OR politics versus religion. It is however about putting EVERY important issue up for discussion in its proper CONTEXT and then making a rationalized decision, even if a particular decision is something that we may completely disagree with or vehemently not believe in!

More importantly, Hinduism is probably the only religion in the world that urges one (not in any dogmatic or threatening way) to find a balanced way through EVERY issue in life AFTER rationalizing it with every fiber of our body and mind. If we don’t, then we do a disservice first and foremost to ourselves – and if we can’t be clear about ourselves then we cannot provide that level of clarity in belief and vision to others seeking to learn about us, our spirituality and our beliefs!

Jai Shree Krishna!

Vijay Hirani
05 August 2007 at 01:25

Dear Sangam,

As mentioned earlier, I have no interest in the Hindu council or Hindu forum and I have no interest in their inner workings either.

You asked why does Mr Jay Lakhani not resign from the Hindu council?

In my view, doing justice to Hinduism for putting across a rational Hindu point of view, is not a reason for resigning.

I could say the same for the author of this article,

Why does he not resign from Hindu Forum for undermining the credibility of Hinduism?.

I have no problem with anyone criticising (even severely) Jay Lakhani views on the Shamboo issue or his other Hindusim issues for that matter.

-------------------------------

A point was also raised as to why Lakhani is in the media so much, It is irrelevant who appears more, him or Mr Ramesh Kallidai.

In this case, I am very glad that he did as someone has to repair the damage done to Hinduism by misguided campaigns like these ones.

If Mr Ramesh Kallidai had equally presented both the views of persons who opposed the slaughter of the sacred bull Shamboo and persons like myself, then Mr Jay Lakhani’s appearance on TV regarding Shamboo would be pointless.

--------------------------

Dear Nataraja,

I disagree, just because an animal is unlucky to be born outside a Hindu temple, it should be treated differently. I don’t understand why you say that other animals are not equally important. The animals suffering form BSE are equally important as Shamboo. This is the basis on which many of the animal charities work, like RSPCA, PETA and the vegetarian society work. However, you are entitled to your point of view.

Vijay Hirani
05 August 2007 at 01:29

Dear Yoda, Sangita,

The reason, I have been so forceful is because in my view the TB/ bTB (read my comment on it) despite being a bacteria is a much much more bigger issue than Shamboo. And again in my view this has not been properly taken into account by our Hindu leaders.

I will out of respect for both you tone down myself.

And I also accept your point that Ushma Williams views are the best so far on this forum. Reading her last mail very aptly summarises the debate and shows her detailed knowledge of Hinduism.

Chirag
05 August 2007 at 03:34

Dear Vijay, you will go any justification for Lakhani but still refuse to answer questions. I guess people can find justification for doing anything anyway. The question about Lakhani resigning from Hindu Council has nothing to do with Ramesh resigning from HFB. Ramesh never pointed to anybody to say that they have sacrificed the credibility of Hinduism. Lakhani did - and that too he refuses to publicly criticise the Hindu Council even though they have supported the campaign, and thus by the same argument have sacrificed the credibility of Hinduism. It is not about the rationality of the argument, but the untebality of the organisation of which he is a Director for which he should resign. You have missed the point by a mile, but I can see that by puttintg forward such an argument, you too lack integrity, like Lakhani. If he was a man of integrity should resign. And precisely, as you have said, he wants to hold on to an national network, so that he can publicise himself, and therefore, I can say right now, he will not resign. He will continue to criticise one organisation, but not another even though both supported the campaign- for the political animal he is.

Chirag
05 August 2007 at 03:37

And Vijay, again in your usual style, you have missed the point about the media. The point was not about who appears more in the media. The point is that for every appearance in the media, Lakhani sends an email to thousands of people with the text of his appearance and promotes himself. Ramesh doesnt do that - and in any case, it is not his fault if the media actively seek his views and not that of Lakhani's. I spoke to several spiritual leaders of good standing and they are unanimous in their opinion, and having dealt with Lakhani, find him to be petty and of an envious nature.

Chirag
05 August 2007 at 03:41

An o Mr Hirani, once again (o this is becoming so frequent) you missed the point about why sacred animals in temples are special. The monks have maintained that the killing of animals in the temple violates the sacred space of the temple. So its not just about the animal it is also about maintaining the purity of the place - and to me that is of paramount importance.

nataraja
05 August 2007 at 09:15

dear vijay hirani,

of course other animals have the same right to live as shambo does/did. But the point is that there is absolutely no chance to have them saved, whilst shambo was owned by a Hindu temple run by responsible people, who tried everything to save him - and of course they had to be focused on that. (the government killed shambo finally, although he was living in a Hindu temple, this should not be forgotten in the process of discussion) I think your statement "I don’t understand why you say that other animals are not equally important. " is a bit of a misunderstanding, because I do not at all suggest that.

The second point chirag mentions is about the temple as a space of special quality. Now, I would not suggest anybody to become fanatical about this, but still one must realise, that the government did not show any respect for that space. So there should be at least some major protest and the government should be urged to make sure, that this will not happen again.

Average Hindu
05 August 2007 at 11:00

The truth is both Kalidai and Lakhani are desperate for fame thats what this issue is really about.This is well known among the Hindu community the competiton among Lakhanis camp being HCUK and Kalidai's camp being HFB.These people have made the whole issue of Shambo as a major embarrasment for the whole Hindu community in the country which the media is taking full advantage of.I'm glad other Hindu groups have kept neutral and kept a low profile on this.

Average Hindu
05 August 2007 at 11:04

And just to point out Kalidai belongs to the Hare Krishna sect which is narrow-minded and Lakhani belongs to the Vivekananda sect.Both sides have their narrow minded agendas thinking their sects interests are the best.I say down with both and let the real Hindus come forward.

Vijay Hirani
05 August 2007 at 11:15

Dear Nataraja,

I respect your view although it differ from mine.

Dear Chiraj,

I hope Mr Ramesh Kallidai, the best for the future. Even though I was very Harsh on his stance on this particular issue. All I hope is that the Hindu forum of Britian talks and works in unison with the Government (back door, not in public) and discuss ways to fund scientific research to come to a compromise on this issue. When this happen if ever the proposal can then be put to the wider public and constructively discussed.

Adios ... This is my last post.

Thank you all .... for the vibrant and heated debate ...

yoda
05 August 2007 at 16:42

Jai Shree Ganeshaya Namah!

Jai Shree Krishna!

Thanks Vijay for your vote of confidence regarding my earlier blog. And THANKS for your mature comments on 5th August to make this the last posting from your end.

Is there anyone else with guts willing to take a positive appraoch (step back) and end this blasphemous blog and return to being rational human beings?

May I remind everyone to reflect on a couple of lines from the famous song 'US & Them' by Pink Floyd....

" Us and Them

And after all we're only ordinary men

Me (me me me me me) and you (you you you you you)

God only knows it's not what we would choose to do...

Down (down down down down down) and Out (out out out out out)

It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about

With, without

And who'll deny that's what the fightings all about

Get out of the way, it's a busy day

And I've got things on my mind

For want of the price of tea and a slice

The old man died! "

Jai Shree Krishna!

thakrar
05 August 2007 at 23:28

I think as hindus we should be ashamed of ourselves the way we have degenerated this important debate into personal attacks which is very un Hindu. Hinduism prides on itself of being able to coexist alongside other religions and now we find we cannot even coexist alongside our own.

The argument as I see it is that it is rationality in religion with the right emotion on the one hand and pure emotion on the other hand and to me the former appears to be the correct way forward.

We now find that foot and mouth has raised its ugly head again and 50 cows have already been slaughtered with 60 more tomorrow. I look forward to Hindu Forum and all those who have degenerated this debate to start an urgent campaign to save those cows unless they not believe that the lives of these cows and many more are sacred.

Chirag
06 August 2007 at 00:07

Thats right Thakrar - mudlsinging in public is bad. Perhaps Lakhani who actually started the public mudslinging before anybody else, should look at the consequences of what he has done rather than standing on a high pedestal and judging one organisation in public while keeping quite about similar views expressed by his own organistaion. Perhaps, he should also seriously consider if he is fit enought to speak up for Hinduism having sacrificed its credibility by starting the personal attacks in the first place.

Sacheen Nanda
06 August 2007 at 00:15

Namaste - to coclude my own observations, it is important that we look at this whol debate rationally. This means that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - and therefore if personal attacks were made by Lakhani in the first place, then others should not complain when he is in the recieving end. Plus no one has still answered why he chose to criticise one organisation in the media while he still continues as Director of another which took a similar stand and still speaks nothing against it. We are all mature individuals with a common interest. Therfefore I accept that these questions will remain unanswered. However, there is no need for anybody to think they hold the moral high ground. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and can hold on to them. Just don't judge the opinion or actions of other people by making assumptions that they are less informed than you are (like the condescending comments made about the 20,000 singatories). We all have a different understanding of Hinduism, but the goal is still the same. Om Shanti.

Yamraj
06 August 2007 at 09:24

Namaste

Hinduism is a dynamic religion, Which makes it complex and hard to understand. Jay Lakhani is the first educationist who is doing the great job of teaching Hinduism comprehensively and not restricting it to narrow minded views of certain sects of hinduism.

To me Ramesh Kallidai is representing simplistic19th Century Hinduism when a Hindu life revolved around COWs, which is not relevant in the place like UK, in this day and age, when No Hindu is keeping a Cow in his back garden.

paul1
06 August 2007 at 09:39

yamraj,

do you think hinduism should be centered

around the TV set nowadays, because everybody has got one at home in the UK?

Even if most Hindus are not keeping cows in the UK, it is still not a good idea to have one that lived in a temple killed by the government.

The basic conceptions of a religion should not be changed whatever the circumstances are. And the Hindu religion has survived like this for many thousands of years, ....rather with spiritual teachers however, than with modern educationalists.

Chirag
07 August 2007 at 01:50

Thank you Paul. you are absolutely right - som values of Hinduism like Go-Raksha (cow protection) are timeless. People like Yamraj think that they are 'modern' if they abandon such central pillars of our faith even though Krishna has declared he is 'go-brahmana-hitaya-ca'. Unfortunately though, Lakhani is not even an educationalist, even though he claims to be one - his clear lack of integrity by which he shamelessly picks HFB and attacks it in public, while his own organisation, the HCUK which supported the campaign, has not even been touched by his malicious bruch, shows that he really is not an educationalist, but a political animal who lacks basic integrity.

yoda
07 August 2007 at 14:04

Yo! Chirag Dost-

Sounds to me like you are more of a Mullah than a Hindu and have some JIHAD/FATWA against Lakhani and HC....OR, are you just a difficult person to convince? We Hindu activists/readers realize that you HATE Lakhani's guts. Trust me, we get the message dude…LOUD and CLEAR! There’s absolutely NO need to further pound your personal tirade into every single blog posting about just how much Lakhani has done a disservice to you and the entire Hindu population of the world....not to mention the departed soul of Shambo.

You need to relax boss...take a CP (chill pill) or something. Or you will suffer from ACS (acute coronary syndrome) and will be laid out flat on a gurney and rushed to the nearest Hindu NHS centre. And with the sad state of affairs at NHS these days, Allah only knows if you’ll get the medical service you may require.

Take it easy bro....I am concerned about your health....Shambo is gone and we don't need another human casualty in Shambo's wake! Go out to the nearest pub and get a pint of something….anything….and while you are at it, just chant some calming Sanskrit mantras while at the pub. Just chill bro, CHILL! We love you man!